Dreamscarred Press introduces Magic of Incarna


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Quote:
The vizier could have one or more "sets" of veils prepared.

Rite Publishing's Masquerade Reveler barbarian archetype does something very similar to this - using sets of Eidolon Evolutions called "masks" - and it works really well. You can select a mask when you start raging, swap between them occasionally, at certain levels you gain the ability to wear more than one mask at once, and so forth. I'm very much in favor of a similar mechanic being used for the Vizier.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Orthos wrote:
Quote:
The vizier could have one or more "sets" of veils prepared.
Rite Publishing's Masquerade Reveler barbarian archetype does something very similar to this - using sets of Eidolon Evolutions called "masks" - and it works really well. You can select a mask when you start raging, swap between them occasionally, at certain levels you gain the ability to wear more than one mask at once, and so forth. I'm very much in favor of a similar mechanic being used for the Vizier.

This was actually something very similar to what I was looking at doing for the capstone; essentially allowing the Vizier to maintain an additional "set" of Veils that he can swap between.

I agree that the current capstone has some potential for slowing down play, so expect to see a reworking of that ability in the very near future (possibly as soon as the weekend release of the other two classes, depending on how much time re-jigging the Veil tables and annotating the binds takes me).


PERFECT.


No hurry (from our end). Slow and steady will get the product cooked right. So far I'm very impressed with your responsiveness. Dreamscarred has set a very high bar and so far it's being maintained. Very cool.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Anguish wrote:
No hurry (from our end). Slow and steady will get the product cooked right. So far I'm very impressed with your responsiveness. Dreamscarred has set a very high bar and so far it's being maintained. Very cool.

Thank you!

To be honest, I'm running myself a little ragged. I just took a job offer in Seattle (I live in Spokane now) and spent the weekend house-hunting. I just placed an offer on a place today, so I'm hoping that works out.

BUT!!!! This is a project that I'm very invested in and it is absolutely awesome getting to work with the community to create the absolute best product possible, and to bring this subsystem to Pathfinder and a whole new generation of players.

Thanks to everyone helping to make this the best it can possibly be, and for all of your feedback and support.

**EDIT**

Let me elaborate a bit on being "invested" in this project. So my first game in Pathfinder was actually kind of weird. It didn't take place in Golarion, and it wasn't a 3.5 conversion.
It was actually set in Alluria Publishing's Cerulean Seas. And one of my "big ideas" was that I was going to toss magic items out the window and graft my carefully converted Incarnum system into the game. I asked one of my best friends and fellow player Steve Hammond to give the converted Totemist a whirl because I was such a huge fan of the Magic of Incarnum book. He hated it, which was eminently depressing for me. But, it planted the seeds for what would ultimately become this project (really, it planted the seeds for the class that would ultimately become the Daevic). So, a few years and a pitch for a completely different project later, and this is where we end up.

And speaking of Cerulean Seas, that is something I'd love to work on as a result of this project: a veilweaving class designed for play in the Cerulean Seas setting (or at least an aquatic setting!) Anyone else interested in that, or is that just me?

Dark Archive

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Ssalarn wrote:
And speaking of Cerulean Seas, that is something I'd love to work on as a result of this project: a veilweaving class designed for play in the Cerulean Seas setting (or at least an aquatic setting!) Anyone else interested in that, or is that just me?

They did a psionic book for Cerulean Seas. I would like one that adresses binding, initiating and weaving. They are still working on their oriental Cerulean Seas book, which might be a good place to include veilweaving.


I would DEFINITELY be in favor of such a book. Doubly so if it could be a Dreamscarred/Alluria co-op, though I'm not sure how the logistics of that would work out.


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Orthos wrote:
Quote:
The vizier could have one or more "sets" of veils prepared.
Rite Publishing's Masquerade Reveler barbarian archetype does something very similar to this - using sets of Eidolon Evolutions called "masks" - and it works really well. You can select a mask when you start raging, swap between them occasionally, at certain levels you gain the ability to wear more than one mask at once, and so forth. I'm very much in favor of a similar mechanic being used for the Vizier.

Man, the designer and the developer sure did a great job on that onewhistles innocently


Will McCardell wrote:
Orthos wrote:
Quote:
The vizier could have one or more "sets" of veils prepared.
Rite Publishing's Masquerade Reveler barbarian archetype does something very similar to this - using sets of Eidolon Evolutions called "masks" - and it works really well. You can select a mask when you start raging, swap between them occasionally, at certain levels you gain the ability to wear more than one mask at once, and so forth. I'm very much in favor of a similar mechanic being used for the Vizier.
Man, the designer and the developer sure did a great job on that onewhistles innocently

They did, that was the best part of that book ;)

*cough*

[/hijack]


Ssalarn wrote:
Anguish wrote:
No hurry (from our end). Slow and steady will get the product cooked right. So far I'm very impressed with your responsiveness. Dreamscarred has set a very high bar and so far it's being maintained. Very cool.

Thank you!

To be honest, I'm running myself a little ragged. I just took a job offer in Seattle (I live in Spokane now) and spent the weekend house-hunting. I just placed an offer on a place today, so I'm hoping that works out.

BUT!!!! This is a project that I'm very invested in and it is absolutely awesome getting to work with the community to create the absolute best product possible, and to bring this subsystem to Pathfinder and a whole new generation of players.

Thanks to everyone helping to make this the best it can possibly be, and for all of your feedback and support.

I hope that Dreamscarred Press does not have predetermined deadline for this project allowing you to dedicate as much time as will be needed to polish it to its best.

Quote:
And speaking of Cerulean Seas, that is something I'd love to work on as a result of this project: a veilweaving class designed for play in the Cerulean Seas setting (or at least an aquatic setting!) Anyone else interested in that, or is that just me?

That could be interesting. Maybe not a full veilweaving class but at least a set of veils, archetypes, essence feats, etc.

Publisher, Dreamscarred Press

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Drejk wrote:
I hope that Dreamscarred Press does not have predetermined deadline for this project allowing you to dedicate as much time as will be needed to polish it to its best.

We rarely, if ever, have predetermined deadlines.

Our timetables are typically "when it's ready."


Jeremy Smith wrote:
Drejk wrote:
I hope that Dreamscarred Press does not have predetermined deadline for this project allowing you to dedicate as much time as will be needed to polish it to its best.

We rarely, if ever, have predetermined deadlines.

Our timetables are typically "when it's ready."

Good, good... *cackles in the darkness*


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And, that said, the last thing we want to do is run SSalarn ragged. He knows he has my blessing to focus on the important things - his life, family and future.

Writing is fabulous, great and fun - but it is also a bonus, not the "core". So he gets as much time as he needs. My input will be when it is "good enough" - because that is just as hard to see once you start down the road of an open playtest.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Let me jump in and say real quick:

In case it wasn't clear, I am running myself ragged :)
Jeremy and Andreas have been amazing to work with, and it is my love of the material, the appreciation of the opportunity Dreamscarred has given me, and my drive to make sure you all get something awesome that is driving me.
Andreas has actually had to tell me to go ahead and slow down and take some time for myself on a number of occasions :)

Paizo Employee Design Manager

A quick note on an anticipated change for damage dealing Veils:

We're looking at a design shift where most damage-dealing Veils do nothing until Essence is invested, and Essence investment scales up more noticeably to bring down it's power at low levels and scale it up at higher levels so it isn't inconsequential. Damage-dealing Veils like Gorget of the Wyrm will follow roughly this progression: 1 Essence = 1 damage die, 2 Essence = 3 damage die, 3 Essence = 5 damage die, 4 Essence = 7 damage die, 5 Essence = 9 damage die, 6 Essence = 11, 7 Essence = 13, 8 Essence = 15. That matches up with the systems fluid nature, and 15 damage die for abilities that are all pretty much at-will at that point is solid. Not earth-shatterlingly amazing, but it won't run out on you, and serves as a solid addition to the other available abilities.

Also, I've got a few things to take care of tonight and tomorrow, so the new updates and materials are looking at more of a Saturday or Sunday roll-out than my initially anticipated Friday release

Thanks all!

(And Anguish, let me know if the above formula for damage progression would have made more sense and worked better for your level 20 encounter)


I think that sounds more like what it needs to be. I'll continue with my plans for the weekend as rules are now but I'll be paying close attention to how much of a steam-roller the encounter is. The party is... highly effective.


Random thought for veilweaving classes:

I thought that in the future we could make a few veilweaving prestige classes centered around unique chakras.

Also, I think that veilweaving equivalent of a soulblade that weaves essence into weapon-veils could be interesting class.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Drejk wrote:

Random thought for veilweaving classes:

I thought that in the future we could make a few veilweaving prestige classes centered around unique chakras.

Also, I think that veilweaving equivalent of a soulblade that weaves essence into weapon-veils could be interesting class.

I currently have a prestige class written up that was intended for pretty much any martial character that involves binding certain types of veils directly to your weapon.

There is also a bard archetype in development that uses song-binds.

And a few other goodies that are all begging for my attention but are being told to wait patiently while the core stuff gets taken care of first :)


Ssalarn wrote:
Drejk wrote:

Random thought for veilweaving classes:

I thought that in the future we could make a few veilweaving prestige classes centered around unique chakras.

Also, I think that veilweaving equivalent of a soulblade that weaves essence into weapon-veils could be interesting class.

I currently have a prestige class written up that was intended for pretty much any martial character that involves binding certain types of veils directly to your weapon.

So there is still a place for prestige class/artchetype which weaves shield-veils?

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Drejk wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
Drejk wrote:

Random thought for veilweaving classes:

I thought that in the future we could make a few veilweaving prestige classes centered around unique chakras.

Also, I think that veilweaving equivalent of a soulblade that weaves essence into weapon-veils could be interesting class.

I currently have a prestige class written up that was intended for pretty much any martial character that involves binding certain types of veils directly to your weapon.
So there is still a place for prestige class/artchetype which weaves shield-veils?

Absolutely.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Changelog:

Gorget of the Wyrm damage progression and neck bind changed to scale better with level.

Heart of the Wight Chakra Bind changed to grant Channel Resistance equal to Essence invested.

Horns of the Minotaur Esseince investment now increases damage by +2 instead of +1.

Stare of the Ghaele changed to only affect any give creature once every 24 hours. Duration increased to 1d6+1 rounds.

Storm Gauntlets damage-scaling adjusted to be more relevant over all levels of play.

Vestments of the Maharaja adjusted to prevent affecting creatures with hit die greater than the wearer's, and ability can now affect a previously affected creature after 24 hours.

Nomenclature added to indicate what levels binds are gained for all Veils ( for example, [V6] in a veils bind entry indicates that that bind is gained at Vizier level 6).

P.S. Working on the Daevic and Guru release document now!

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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And, let me introduce you to round 1 of the second veilweaving class, the Daevic. Let me know what you think!


Argh! I need to go to sleep soon... No time to read through it and comment today.


I was more expecting daevic to use Wisdom and guru to use Charisma.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Drejk wrote:
I was more expecting daevic to use Wisdom and guru to use Charisma.

Currently it's the other way around. Philosophies seemed like more of a Wisdom ability while Passions said Charisma in my mind.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Drejk wrote:
Argh! I need to go to sleep soon... No time to read through it and comment today.

No worries, it'll still be here tomorrow :)

You'll probably notice that the Daevic doesn't have a lot of Body Veils, and that's because I've taken them away and given them back like twenty times while hammering out what I want from his capstone. I'm currently working on a few rewrites of some of his Veils, including three body Veils, and will have those up in the not too distant future.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Changelog:

Daevic Desire capstone changed to limit the abilities power, while still being appropriate for the level and tier of the class.

Bloody Shroud adjusted to reflect correct bind acquisition level annotation.

Cincture of the Dragon adjusted to remove Con-based durations and effects.

Courtesan's Cloak changed to an insight bonus to saves to be more in line with the general bonus types granted by Incarna abilities.

Essence of the Succubus changed to a competence bonus to be more in line with the general bonus types granted by Incarna abilities.

Immaculate Touch changed to do 1 point of healing +1d6 per point of Essence invested.

Grammar error corrected in Infernal Blood.

Thurston's Bladewards fixed to grant DR/Bludgeoning.

Level requirement removed from Extra Essence.
Level requirement (7th) added to Extra Essence Capacity.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Changelog:

Daevic Feet Bind moved to 2nd level.

Daevic Chakra Binds updated to match up with acquisition of binds and expected power progression better.

Armory of the Conqueror updated with text to clarify that it cannot be targeted by Magic Weapon or similar effects, nor is it a valid target for weapon specific feats.

Whirlpool Lash and Sea Drake’s Talons added to Veil list.


Thematically this class looks interesting. :3 I would like to see a Desire for 'Entropy' to fulfill the equal-opposite to Dominion.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Sakuri wrote:
Thematically this class looks interesting. :3 I would like to see a Desire for 'Entropy' to fulfill the equal-opposite to Dominion.

Hmmm.... I kinda like that....


I think that during the last update the class table formatting went a bit off.

Hmmm... Investing Essence into daevic bond requires keeping track of lots of bonuses.

When I first thought of essence-investing high BAB/high HD combat-oriented class I thought of someone who would have a number of pools into which he would invest essence to gain various bonuses, depending on what he needs at the moment: offensive, defensive, tactical, mobility.


Oh, and Passion of Dominion could be called Pride.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Drejk wrote:
Oh, and Passion of Dominion could be called Pride.

Dude, thank you. I put Dominance originally, but that had issues. Pride is muy bueno.

Passion bonds might find themselves chopped up and redistributed a bit, but the goal with the Daevic was for a class that had the potential for complexity almost equal to the Vizier, but could also basically be put in training wheels mode and be totally accessible to a player who like the idea of incarna, but wasn't interested in trying to action and essence juggle every round. A Daevic can "set and forget" their Essence at the start of the day by maxing out their Passion and and buffing a few select Veils, and then never worry about it, or they can juggle Essence around for maximum effectiveness. That was kind of the goal anyways, a class that used the subsystem as much as the player was inclined to. One of the big reasons I took this on was to increase accessibility for people who just couldn't follow the original material, or felt like it was too much work round to round.


A thought about vizier and his ring veil slots: It is a minor thing but he could have a regular progression of veils of 2 plus one on each even level, for a maximum of 12 at 20th level - 10 regular veils plus two veils on fingers.


Wasn't Improved Essence Capacity placed on levels 3, 9 and 15? It would spread the essence capacity evenly between levels: 1st-1 essence, 3rd-2 essence, 6th-3 essence, 9th-4 essence, 12th-5 essence, 15th-6 essence, 18th-7 essence.


Another minor nitpick, this time regarding wording:

Quote:
You can only shape a certain number of Veils per day (see Veilweaving table below).

Suggest a number of daily uses. I think that it would be better stated as: vizier can have a limited number of veils shaped at the same time.

BTW: You jump between third person and second person in various places of the text, which will need unification during the editing process - as far as I can remember, all PF classes use third person in their description.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Thanks for the notes! I originally wrote everything in the second person (wish I knew what I was thinking at that time) and I've been trying to get it all adjusted to match the standard set by the PF classes. Consider that ongoing :P


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You can safely assume that I'll be willing to proofread once you're mostly done adjusting content. I suspect I was Jeremy's least-favorite nitpicker on UP. <Grin>

Paizo Employee Design Manager

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Anguish wrote:
You can safely assume that I'll be willing to proofread once you're mostly done adjusting content. I suspect I was Jeremy's least-favorite nitpicker on UP. <Grin>

I would rather have a picky proofreader now, than a subpar product at release, so thank you.

Little anecdotal story about the Daevic:

I wanted a fun thematic enemy for my party to tangle with, and it had been a while since I'd thrown any good aquatic encounters at the, so I built a sahuagin Wrath Daevic with Spiked Pauldrons, Gorget of the Wyrm, Seadrake's Talons, and Cincture of the Dragon (as well as other goodies), and staged a fight in a cavern rapidly flooding as the tide came in. That was crazy fun! The big guy would send a bunch of the party members spinning while the standard sahuagin harried them and then grapple the nearest party member and start going to town.

On a note: what I really wanted the Whirlpool Lash ability to do is cause the disoriented condition from Cerulean Seas, but there's some obvious issues there preventing me from doing it. Any other good ideas for a mechanic that represents being sent spinning out of control underwater? Existing or new, I'm open to suggestions, I just don't know if I like the current prone-but-have-to-spend-a-standard mechanic.

Also, I've been working with Andreas and a couple others on putting together some feats that are designed to give new mechanical ways to access the system, including feats that allow you to do cool stuff with slots you've unlocked your binds for. There's one that actually gives some cool tactical abilities if you've unlocked your Feet slot (either with the feat or with a class ability) and don't choose to shape or bind a Veil there. I'm driving up to Seattle tonight, but my hotel has wi-fi and I'm not going to have much else going on, so I'm hoping I'll get the opportunity to give the feats a last read-through and post them up for you.


Note that such feats would be less and less useful as the character levels grow (at least for vizier) because it would mean that such character must keep some of his veils available unassigned (20th level vizier has 11 veils and 12 slots for veils - if he has three feats that grant bonus for unoccupied unlocked slot it means that he has to choose between weaving all 11 veils and having bonus for one feat or having less veils weaved and more feats providing their bonuses).

Paizo Employee Design Manager

They're primarily for non veilweaving classes and to expand options without unduly increasing power. And unfortunately, while I did make it to Seattle, that was pretty much the only upside to an absolutely terrible day and I didn't get a chance to get the new update out. I'll do my best to get it reviewed and out ASAP, but my chances of getting it to you all before the weekend took a sharp downward turn today.


I had an idea for a more generic daevic yesterdaynight. Here's a quick sketch of the basic chassis:
.
.
.

Spoiler:

Level.. Ability
1........ Essence manipulation, four passions
2........ Veil (1)
3........
4........ Veil (2)
5........
6........ Bind veil (1)
7........
8........ Veil (3)
9........
10....... Veil (4)
11.......
12....... Bind veil (2)
13.......
14....... Veil (5)
15.......
16....... Veil (6)
17.......
18....... Bind veil (3)
19.......
20....... Immortal passions

Essence Manipulation: Daevics can sense and manipulate the flow of essence in and around themselves. A daevic has a pool of essence equal to his class level. A daevic can invest essence into his passions, woven veils and feats gaining various advantages. Investing essence is a swift action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
Needs expansion to become full ability description

Four passions: Daevics are driven by powerful passions and they gain power from them in return. Each passion grants a bonus based upon number of essence point invested.

Desire: Each point of essence invested into desire passion grants +1 insight bonus to attack rolls.
Wrath: Each point of essence invested into wrath passion grants +1 insight bonus to weapon damage rolls.
Pride: Each point of essence invested into pride passion grants +1 insight bonus to AC.
Persistence: Each point of essence invested into persistence passion grants +1 insight bonus to saving throws.

Some feats and abilities may grant additional effects based upon the number of essence points invested into particular passions.
Needs expansion of passion description

Veilweaving: After reaching 2nd level, a daevic gains the ability to weave a veil of essence linked to one of his chakras gaining benefits of the veil and possibility of investing essence into the veil to unlock additional effects. At 4th, 8th, 10th, 14th and 16th level, the daevic can maintain one additional veil woven at the same time.
Obviously the description of this ability would need to be expanded to match the description of veilweaing.

After reaching 6th level, a daevic can bind one of the woven veils gaining greater ability of the veil bound. A daevic can bind one additional veil at 12th and 18th level.

Immortal Passions: At 20th level, a daevic becomes an immortal vessel of passions driving him. The daevic stops aging. When he is killed he may opt to reincarnate, as per spell, as member of random sapient race after seven days. Permanent negative levels suffered from reincarnation dissipate without negative effect at the rate of one negative level per week.

I still need to get a good idea for abilities that would be gained at odd levels — probably related to opening specific chakras to binding and/or expanding effects of passions.

Alternative would be to replace passions with martial virtues and make it a separate kashtriya class.


Does anyone have any playtest experience with these?


Cheapy wrote:
Does anyone have any playtest experience with these?

Some, yes. There's been more than just theorycrafting done. I can't speak for everyone, but I did a 20th level vizier.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Hey all.
So I'm finally getting an opportunity to sit down and start digging into this update to get it ready for release. I'm responding to some questions and suggestions on various forums, and working on making some small tweaks and adjustments, as well as getting the new feats proofread and added to both documents.

Some small changes taking place:
The ability to deal negative levels with the Bloody Shroud bind has been noted to be a bit too powerful, and some of the local playtests that were reported back to me backed this up. It was less that it was overwhelming, and more that the gradual debuffs were making every combat anticlimatic as the enemy ended up being reduced to an ineffective imbecile. So, that ability is being changed so that the negative levels only trigger on a hit.
Immovable Boots are having the burrow ability clarified as only allowing movement through soft earth and sand (and possibly snow).

Expect a general nerfing of to-hit bonuses granted by Veils and class abilities. There have been some not-entirely-unjustified concerns about the classes hedging out martials while giving casters a run for their money, so I'm going to try and mediate this a bit. This toning down may involve the numeric advantages being decreased and/or spread out, or just becoming much more situational in nature.

As previously mentioned, more feats will be coming out as well, and these feats are all outside of the "invest Essence for xyz" box. Most are tied to either having access to binds or giving new ways to do things(using Essence as Grit or temporarily repairing a misfire with a pseudo-Veil, temporarily repairing a sundered weapon or item with pseudo-veils,using opened binds to gain effects like walking on water or walking up sheer vertical surfaces, etc.)

Paizo Employee Design Manager

I'm running out of fuel and I haven't finished the feats guys, but for now here's the current updates:

Changelog:
Immovable Boots burrow ability clarified to only work in soft earth and sand.
Bloody Shroud bind changed to only deal negative levels on a critical hit.
Wrath bonus to attacks now only triggers when below ½ of total hp.
Spell Resistance removed from Wrath Daevics Passion abilities, replaced with improved facility to Bull Rush / Overrun.
Wrath Daevic’s DR ability replaced with Fast Healing which activates whenever he drops below 50% of his total hit point value
Desire Passion’s bonus to-hit limited to off-hand and iterative attacks.
Bonus granted by Essence of the Succubus changed back to circumstance bonus, but limited to creatures of the opposite gender. (Creatures who would be attracted to her causes too much argument and hassle at the table, or I would have done that. I try not to enforce sexuality and leave that open to the player and GM, but I also don’t want to be responsible for that one idiot who thinks every chick is secretly bi-sexual so they should all be attracted to his elven seductress).
Desire’s capstone no longer at-will, but useable Cha mod / day.
Dominion’s to-hit bonus now only applies to shields and iterative attacks with weapons with the Blocking property.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

I had to make a very difficult decision to let go of my pet and very dear friend last night, so I'm going to be taking a couple days away from the forums and the project just to regroup and get centered. Please continue to review the materials, please continue to give me your insights and advice, and please keep talking about the project and what you'd like from it. I'll be back in the swing of things in a few days here and I'll be going over everything that comes up while I'm away, as well as getting the next set of feats and a playtest challenge I'm putting together released. Thanks for all of your insight and contributions, and thanks for understanding if I don't respond or update you with the same efficiency I normally strive for.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Okay guys, I'm starting to get my feet back under me and am going to start working on the project again, though my response time may still be a bit slower than normal.

I've got a release coming up here with the new feats, and I'm going to try and drop the Guru at about the same time so that all three core classes will be available.

Another thing I'm working on is the release that will be following that one, which is going to start introducing prestige classes and archetypes. While a lot of these are already kind of mapped out there's a few ideas that I've been playing with that I'm less certain about, and I wanted to know what you all thought. Let me know what you think of the following ideas:

An advanced class for the Magus that gives up spellcasting for Veils and uses a unique mechanic that blends their Essence Pool and Arcane Pool into something a little bit new. Spellstrike, Spell Combat, and most of the other Magus staples will stay, but likely with adjustments to accomodate the changed system (don't worry, I have a really good plan for how to execute this).

A Bard archetype who can animate Veils with his Bardic Performance to create a combat pet. He'd burn spells to obtain Essence to enhance the creature.

An Oracle mystery that allows you to count some or all of your oracle levels as veilweaver levels (I'm thinking level -3 currently), a limited list of Veils, and a small Essence pool instead of Revelations.

A cavalier archetype that sacrifices Tactician and Banner abilities to instead grant allies the use of Veils he'll gain from a limited list. Essence will likely be tied into the Challenge ability (essentially giving him a temporary pool of Essence that activates at the same time as his Challenge and goes away when his Challenge ends).

Anyways, those are the four that I'm on the fence about, so let me know what your thoughts are.


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Ssalarn wrote:
I had to make a very difficult decision to let go of my pet and very dear friend last night, so I'm going to be taking a couple days away from the forums and the project just to regroup and get centered...

My deepest sympathizes, Ssalarn.

-Kcinlive

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Hey all,
So, I've been having an ongoing conversation on the Dreamscarred forums as relates to the power of Armory of the Conqueror.
I personally think the power level of this Veil is pretty much right where I want it to be, but I'm always open to feedback. I'd like to know what you think about that particular Veil. I'll be introducing a playtest challenge in the near future giving everyone a chance to take their concerns, likes, dislikes, etc. and throw them down in a little virtual arena testing, but in the meantime I'd be interested in your thoughts on this particular subject. Here's a snippet of the conversation that's been going on so far:

Syonique wrote:

"It's not going to be nearly as big of a problem, honestly, because Armory of the Conqueror can't be dual-wielded"

... no. Seriously, no. Go do some DPR research sometime. A two-handed weapon with 6d6 base damage (2d12 -> 6d6 thanks to Wrath capstone's 'incarna sheathe') and DOUBLE Str bonus to damage, full attacking with full BAB, with 17-20/x4 BASE crit, is FAR outdamaging anything a TWF warrior will be able to dish out. Especially since with TWF, you're getting x1 StrMod mainhand and x0.5 StrMod offhand, or x1 offhand if you take the appropriate feat, yet Daevic is getting x2 mainhand.

"with that wording it's going to be less likely to crit than dual keen kukris"

15-20/x2 deals less than 17-20/x4. 30% chance of +100% damage is +30% average damage. 20% chance of +300% damage is +60% average damage.

Armory of the Conqueror isn't killing something via level drain - it's killing them through MASSIVE damage.

That said, dual-wielding kukris that can level drain or otherwise have nasty effects on a crit IS effective... but when looking at raw DPR, a Wrath Daevic with Armory of the Conqueror is just ridiculous. Gets even worse if you include a size increase or three (6d6 -> 8d6... 8d6 -> ? -> ? Congrats, you just broke the game).

Ssalarn wrote:

So, numerous comments on this one:

For starters, the difference in damage between Armory of the Conqueror and what is already available in the system isn't the game-breaking monstrosity that it's getting made out to be. With Armory of the Conqueror, it's not just about what you are multiplying on a crit, it's also about what you aren't. You don't get all of the static bonuses that other classes have available (compare to an Inquisitor, Fighter, Paladin, or Cavalier wielding a level-appropriate scimitar, rapier or nodachi), you don't have enhancement bonuses to-hit, and enhancement bonuses to damage which are also getting multiplied on a crit, and you don't have the same chance to hit with your primary attack that even the Inquisitor does.
As I've mentioned previously, I don't consider a capstone that kicks in at 20th level and offers double strength to damage with a particluar type of weapon to be OP. The monk can Flurry and deal 1.5 STR on all attacks (mechanically the same effect since it combines TWF with normal THF bonuses) by 5th level using the Dragon Style feats, and the Two Handed Fighter archetype gets double strength on single attacks at 3rd level and iterative attacks at 7th. These are all much earlier than the Daevic, and they still stack up with other powerful abilities and capstones. For the Daevic, this is the capstone.
As part of this conversation, I'm working on a "playtest challenge" with some comparative builds of classes using the core material to create relevant baselines for comparison. That'll give everyone a chance to throw down their fears about the class' power level side-by-side with what's already out there and see what it actually looks like. I've done it, and it isn't bad. I'm actually a little concerned with the feedback I've been getting from other forums who feel that I'm nerfing the Daevic too much.

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