Antagonize is the base feat. Skill focus is the extra feat. It is still not even close to archery though which was the example you used. A better comparison is power attack and furious focus which is the "helper feat" much like skill focus is.
I only started the bard at a 16, not an 18 so he can still get a 14 in strength. I intentionally did not use the race to boost charisma to show how good it was with only 2 feats and not maxing charisma. The bard would have gotten the headband of charisma anyway so it is like that was made just for intimidate. That is more for the spells. The other social spells just benefit from it.
those may be investments a bard would take anyway
and even if intimidate isn't the primary purpose
you still invested a lot of resources into intimidate
even if intimidate isn't your sole niche, and even if you had lotsa skill points to spend
take a barbarian, fighter or ranger, where the investment is more sizeable
a bard is an example of a case where the investment is minimal because the class would already do it.
eh, given its single target nature its potentially dangerous and encounter-ending if you get it on solo creatures or susceptible targets that don't use team tactics.
Its worth using on a lone target, much like its worth having the rogue SA them. Its good for use on targets that purposefully put themselves away from the rest of their allies, the sniper/etc, but they're also going to be guys not easily CDG's because of their general distance from the PCs too.
Slumber isn't broken
Pre Errata Antagnonize isn't broken
both devastate solo encounters and both rely on highly specific builds
but the world wouldn't change to accomodate such a corner case
we should stop all this theory crafting and thinking of corner case scenarios that would never happen in a real game
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So you are saying you want the very powerful monsters to be able to do suboptimal(almost foolish) actions and still be able to come out on top?
No I'm not.
I want you to tell me whether you would consider George, Bill and Ben's behaviour realistic or not.
(incidentally, I didn't think cackle had anything to do with slumber)
Richard
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we should stop all this theory crafting and thinking of corner case scenarios that would never happen in a real game
Like I keep saying (over and over and over) this isn't about "real games" it's about setting up the background within which "real games" take place.
I know the thread's getting a bit long and people can't be bothered reading through it all but I did write something earlier about some gamers confronted with a colossal red dragon in a cave just kill it and move on whilst others start asking how it got there. I wont repeat that whole post here.
In answer to sunshadow21, I put up a post earlier suggesting Golarion's PC class demographics on the basis of a town they published, which suggested to me that villages would be quite likely to have witches. I do take your other points, though.
To the people who say that slumber Hex is a corner-case build for a witch, again earlier in this thread there were plenty of arguments suggesting that it might be more popular than that.
Maybe you can't please all the people all of the time, but I do find it interesting to postulate how the Pathfinder world hangs together and to write scenarios which I think are logical and realistic as much as my poor brain can figure it.
I will give another example which I thought of last night, which I thought was interesting.
In a battle raging somewhere in the depths of hell, various minions slug it out on the battle fields whilst the various higher level devils pair off and do individual combat.
Two Balrogs (er, Balors) go at one another with spells and whips and what have you, occasionally landing on the poor mooks below them, knocking over the scenery and so on before taking off and smashing at each other again.
All very cinematic.
Until Slumber Hex came along.
Now if one of those mooks happens to be a 1st level witch with Slumber, and they get within 30' of it, and they're not otherwise engaged, they have a 5% chance of settling the encounter between them.
Sure, there are a few ifs there, but in the course of a battle there will be 100s of opportunities for this to happen.
Until Slumber Hex, those two Balorogs (I'll never get used to Balor) wouldn't have cared in the least about any of the lowly creatures fighting below them.
To me, the fact that a 1st level witch has a 5% chance of deciding the combat is extraordinary - whatever the circumstances.
(And *please* don't anyone post "What sort of GM would put my 1st level Witch in a battle with Balors!")
So this sort of scenario can't happen any more. The Balors have got to keep their combat well away from the masses - just in case.
Imagine the battle of the Gladden Fields in LOTR with the Wyverns, Trolls and Oliphaunts being susceptible to Slumber.
When you allow low-level (and therefore relatively common) creatures to affect high level adversaries the world has to be affected.
IMVHO
Richard
Slumber isn't broken
Pre Errata Antagnonize isn't broken
both devastate solo encounters and both rely on highly specific builds
but the world wouldn't change to accomodate such a corner case
we should stop all this theory crafting and thinking of corner case scenarios that would never happen in a real game
I haven't looked at Antagonize, but nothing about slumber hex requires a specific build at all, nor does it rely on single creature encounters.
All it takes is a witch with a decent intelligence score (their primary stat) and a sidekick who can wield a simple weapon and has a 14 or so strength. This combo can take on most epic (APL+3) level encounters with a very good chance of success, and even has a good chance of success against many encounters 5-10 CRs above their APL. If you want to get crazy, TWO witches can make the situation much worse.
Just a quick note, as this has come up several times during the thread:
Coup de grace is an automatic critical, that requires the victim to make a fortitude save with a DC of 10+damage. A 14 strength and a simple weapon will give you a DC 22 MINIMUM (DC 43 max). A first level Barbarian with power attack and a scythe can do a raging power attack coup de grace, for a DC of 58 MINIMUM. The CR 25 Tarrasque (+31 fort) is not even close to making it against anything but a natural 20.
Again, NOTHING about the issues of the slumber hex is a corner case, unless your campaign is mostly dragons, elves, undead, and mindless creatures. The witch doesn't have to make any sacrifices, beyond selecting slumber as one of the six hexes they get by level 10, and they are still a bad-ass full arcane caster. The coup de grace monkey simply has to be a marginally adequate simple weapon wielder (they can even be an archer!).
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Two Balrogs (er, Balors) go at one another with spells and whips and what have you, occasionally landing on the poor mooks below them, knocking over the scenery and so on before taking off and smashing at each other again.
All very cinematic.
Until Slumber Hex came along.
Now if one of those mooks happens to be a 1st level witch with Slumber, and they get within 30' of it, and they're not otherwise engaged, they have a 5% chance of settling the encounter between
First of all, you have it backwards. Balors don't know what level things are. If something has a weapon or a spell, they probably kill it, just to be prudent. A "real life" Balor would have to worry about Farmer Joe getting lucky and landing a blow just as good as Sarah the Magnificent, whereas in a game, that's not going to happen. Second, let's assume the balors are metagaming bastards. Even then, why are they going to lay asleep at night over a 5% possibility of falling asleep? The balor is probably going to win initiative, can Power Word Stun anything that looks like a witch before they get close, and, if it came down to it, could likely survive a CDG attempt. Also, they have Quickened telekinesis. Oh, and they don't usually travel alone. Third, if Farmer Joe wins, he still loses, because of death throes. There's one tactic not likely to be widely copied. Fourth, if two 1st level characters actually managed to pull that off, that wouldn't suck. It would be awesome.
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The rules for settlements say that we can find spellcasting services in a settlement as small as a thorp with fewer than 20 people in it. The witch is one of the best characters for that as one can cover a large selection of arcane and divine spells. The best hexes for a village witch would be charm, slumber and healing.
Slumber is certainly one of, if not the best hex for a witch who expects to get into a fight. But a 'village witch' is as like as not to be a healer, soothsayer, or wise woman. I'd expect any adventuring witch to start with Slumber, but the village witch has every incentive to take Healing, Fortune, Ward, Cauldron, or Charm over more offensive hexes. I wouldn't put Slumber anywhere near the top choice for a village witch.
You gave your witch 17 Int. That gives her Slumber Hex a DC of 13. The Ogre has a 50/50 shot at making the save. And keep in mind the Ogre is only CR 3--not remotely a 'mid-level' threat. A village militia would probably have a solid chance of taking one down, albeit with casualties expected. In the case of a lone ogre, it's not the thought that they *can't* fight it that keeps the villagers in check, but fear of how many they'd lose, making it easier to give him what he wants. A Slumber Hex is something new in that calculus, but again--the witch has to get within 30 ft., and a fighter type has to get right next to it, because it will only fall asleep for one round. They get one shot to try it, and it's nowhere close to a sure thing. That's one heck of a risky tactic, if you ask me. Make it a real mid-level like a Hill Giant (who notably, are specifically noted as preferring to throw rocks from a distance first), and the chance of landing the hex gets smaller, the payout of failing is more likely certain death...I just can't see a village relying on it, or a monster losing sleep over it.
It's a powerful Hex, a must for PCs, but I cannot see it affecting world building, especially if you don't assume that witches with the Slumber Hex are everywhere.
Given that sleep is on the witch spell list, it doesn't make sense for most, or even many, NPC witches to take slumber hex, on the off chance they need to pull a Mission Impossible against a frost giant.
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I have a Slumber-loving Witch in my campaign. Has been quite effective in a few encounters, but I like using multiple opponents and robots, so it hasn't been overpowering. First I read about it, the hex seemed crazy, but it hasn't been bad at all.
It should be noted that the listed 'Raiding Party' of Frost Giants is actually 6-12 giants, a higher level caster giant, 1-4 winter wolves and 2-3 ogres. Good luck witch!
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The rules for settlements say that we can find spellcasting services in a settlement as small as a thorp with fewer than 20 people in it. The witch is one of the best characters for that as one can cover a large selection of arcane and divine spells. The best hexes for a village witch would be charm, slumber and healing.Slumber is certainly one of, if not the best hex for a witch who expects to get into a fight. But a 'village witch' is as like as not to be a healer, soothsayer, or wise woman. I'd expect any adventuring witch to start with Slumber, but the village witch has every incentive to take Healing, Fortune, Ward, Cauldron, or Charm over more offensive hexes. I wouldn't put Slumber anywhere near the top choice for a village witch.
Fortune (Su): The witch can grant a creature within 30 feet a bit of good luck for 1 round.
Useless for a village witch
Healing (Su): A witch can soothe the wounds of those she touches. This acts as a cure light wounds spell, using the witch's caster level.
To cite a old comment in Dragon, "Way more than what is needed, unless someone belted you with a scythe while harvesting."
Still worth taking it as one the first or second hex.Ward: only one creature at a time can benefit from it, and he can't be the witch, late choice for a non adventuring winch.
Charm: it is in my list, I agree;
Cauldron: main functions selling potions and not spending a feat at level 3 to take Brew potions. But most villagers will not have the money to buy a potion and a non adventuring witch will not suffer from a shortage of feats. So-so choice.
Slumber: it can be used for self defense, to stop a brawl, to block a runaway animal and so on. Probably not the first level choice, but a solid choice as the 2nd level hex.
You gave your witch 17 Int. That gives her Slumber Hex a DC of 13. The Ogre has a 50/50 shot at making the save. And keep in mind the Ogre is only CR 3--not remotely a 'mid-level' threat. A village militia would probably have a solid chance of taking one down, albeit with casualties expected. In the case of a lone ogre, it's not the thought that they *can't* fight it that keeps the villagers in check, but fear of how many they'd lose, making it easier to give him what he wants. A Slumber Hex is something new in that calculus, but again--the witch has to get within 30 ft., and a fighter type has to get right next to it, because it will only fall asleep for one round. They get one shot to try it, and it's nowhere close to a sure thing. That's one heck of a risky tactic, if you ask me. Make it a real mid-level like a Hill Giant (who notably, are specifically noted as preferring to throw rocks from a distance first), and the chance of landing the hex gets smaller, the payout of failing is more likely certain death...I just can't see a village relying on it, or a monster losing sleep over it.
You assume level, I would say that the witch in a torph can be level 1 or 2 (still limited to 1st level spells). She would probably use the sleep spell first against the ogre (longer range, 1 or 2 minutes duration). But the slumber hex leave her a strong chance of affecting the target when it is near.
BTW, a thorp is has less that 20 people in it. it is difficult for it to have a "village militia".
Again and again people repeat the "throw rock" argument. Exactly why the villagers would place themselves in open ground to be slaughtered by throw rocks?
A hill giant hurled rocks aren't classed anymore as a siege engine weapon, so if we suppose that the walls of a wooden house are at least as hard as a strong wooden door, we have a hardness of 5 and 20 hp per section vs a damage of (1d8+10)/2, i.e. 0-4 hp of damage. How many throwing rocks is carrying your giant?
A creature can hurl rocks up to two categories smaller than its size; for example, a Large hill giant can hurl Small rocks. A “rock” is any large, bulky, and relatively regularly shaped object made of any material with a hardness of at least 5.
So it can't pick any stone from a drywall and throw it. He need large objects. I would have some doubt about classing large logs or pieces of timber as "relatively regularly shaped object" as good throwing items generally are approximately spherical.
So our wandering hill giant will have a small reserve of good throwing rocks with him. After using them he will have to do with whatever he find near the village. But generally you don't find rocks of the appropriate in plowed fields and pastures. They have been removed to get a better use from the field and as construction material.
The giant will not be capable to do much more that hole the wall of one or two houses or a section of the wall of a single large house. Possibly while taking some bow fire from the house. Not enough to force the village people to come out and fight in the open, where he has the advantage.
It's a powerful Hex, a must for PCs, but I cannot see it affecting world building, especially if you don't assume that witches with the Slumber Hex are everywhere.
You don't need a guy with a rifle in every house to make people wary.
Knowing that 1/5 or even 1/10 of the torphs will have a witch and that that mean a 45% chance of dying will change the hill giant behavior.Hill giants are the most nomadic of all the humanoid giant species, preferring to travel from one settlement to the next in order to raid and pillage. While they prefer temperate climates, they'll travel far from their preferred environment so long as the raiding is plentiful and successful. They are, as a whole, incredibly selfish creatures and rarely engage in battles they don't automatically know they'll win.
Power level and abilities change, but those limits apply to most single creatures. Approaching even a very small settlement can easily become a death sentence. That will change their behavior. it worked with our world predators.
Given that sleep is on the witch spell list, it doesn't make sense for most, or even many, NPC witches to take slumber hex, on the off chance they need to pull a Mission Impossible against a frost giant.
It work against anything with more than 4 hd, standard action that don't provoke vs 1 round casting time that provoke, can be used against multiple targets in a day vs having to memorize it.
It has noticeable advantages. Probably not the fist level choice (unless you are taking extra hex) but a good 2nd level choice.With extra hex a human 1st level witch can have charm, slumber and cauldron.
At that point she would memorize Cure Light Wound and Stabilize and she would be fully capable to cover any farming accident. Generally you will not have multiple people suffering deadly accidents in a day.
How many thorps have a Witch instead of an Adept, given that NPC classes are more prevalent than PC classes?
How many of those thorps will have a 2nd level witch? If Slumber doesn't put the enemy out for at least two rounds, the odds of CDG drop precipitously.
How many of those witches will have the Slumber Hex, when they could be making a nice living off Cauldron, Healing the townsfolk, using Charm to settle brawls and arguments far more safely and amicably than by knocking someone out, using Feral Speech to find out what's agitating the animals the thorp relies on...
How often will that witch not get killed by a thrown rock? All it takes is the giant making the first attack, before everyone has had a chance to get inside. Let alone if the cottages have thatched roofs, made of vegetation, so probably hardness 0. Or the GM observing that a giant is the same size as catapult, presumably throwing projectiles of the same size, and so 'similar' to a siege engine, as the rules on ranged attacks and hardness allow for.
That's a lot of 'what ifs' to get to an uncertain strategy.
There's also the fact that the frost giant's speed is 40 feet and Slumber has a range of 30 feet - ie the witch can't move and use Slumber without being inside the frost giant's charge reach in the first place.
Slumber is unusual in that it comes online early for a SoS, but it's hardly unique - or particularly game changing.
With a 15 int the Slumber DC becomes 10+1+2 = 13.
The generic frost giant has a will save of +6. So he needs a 7+ or it's a 70% of success.
Don't forget the racial adjustment, and let's just assume a second level witch. So we now have a 40% chance that the witch will take out the giant.
So 40% or even dropping it down to a 35% because of the chance the giant could roll a 20 on his coup de grace save. While I would normally scoff at such a limited chance of success in a a monsters vs PCs battle, we are talking about two guys taking on a CR way, way, way beyond anything they should have a chance at. While hold person comes close, there is nothing in the game that allows such nasty save-or-almost-certain-death, and nothing that does it without: SR, an AoO, a spell slot, feats or other investments, etc. Even the heavens oracle isn't even close to being able to color spray the giant for more then the minimum effect.
I think the better question is what ability other then slumber hex allows a group to trivialize a large percentage of the encounters in an adventure path? If these tactics are so effective, why isn't the military tactics of the world based on using slumber hex?
I think a single frost giant can kill an entire party of five 1st level witches with slumber hex under normal adventuring conditions.
I think a single frost giant can kill an entire party of five 1st level witches with slumber hex under normal adventuring conditions.
OK, so CR 9 beats APL 1.
Could it kill a 3rd or 4th level party if there are say.. two witches?
Good question. Same question, two wizards.
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First of all, you have it backwards. Balors don't know what level things are. If something has a weapon or a spell, they probably kill it, just to be prudent. A "real life" Balor would have to worry about Farmer Joe getting lucky and landing a blow just as good as Sarah the Magnificent, whereas in a game, that's not going to happen. Second, let's assume the balors are metagaming bastards. Even then, why are they going to lay asleep at night over a 5% possibility of falling asleep? The balor is probably going to win initiative, can Power Word Stun anything that looks like a witch before they get close, and, if it came down to it, could likely survive a CDG attempt. Also, they have Quickened telekinesis. Oh, and they don't usually travel alone. Third, if Farmer Joe wins, he still loses, because of death throes. There's one tactic not likely to be widely copied. Fourth, if two 1st level characters actually managed to pull that off, that wouldn't suck. It would be awesome.
Two Balrogs (er, Balors) go at one another with spells and whips and what have you, occasionally landing on the poor mooks below them, knocking over the scenery and so on before taking off and smashing at each other again.
All very cinematic.
Until Slumber Hex came along.
Now if one of those mooks happens to be a 1st level witch with Slumber, and they get within 30' of it, and they're not otherwise engaged, they have a 5% chance of settling the encounter between
I'm sorry but you totally misunderstood my example.
Balor A and Balor B are fighting each other over a battle field. Somewhere down there are 1st level witches that are on Balor A's side. If the combat gets within 30' of them, one of those witches, if not otherwise engaged, has a 5% chance of putting Balor B to sleep. Balor A would then administer the CDG.
That means that a 1st level witch has a 5% chance of deciding a combat between two Balors.
Over a battle, there'll be many opportunities for that to happen, so the Balors need to keep out of the way. At least, they do now. AFAIK they never had to before, though Grey Lensman's point is perfectly valid that maybe this is a step in the right direction.
Richard
Then death throes, and the witch is dead. How many spare witches do you have?
With a 15 int the Slumber DC becomes 10+1+2 = 13.
The generic frost giant has a will save of +6. So he needs a 7+ or it's a 70% of success.
Don't forget the racial adjustment, and let's just assume a second level witch. So we now have a 40% chance that the witch will take out the giant.
So 40% or even dropping it down to a 35% because of the chance the giant could roll a 20 on his coup de grace save. While I would normally scoff at such a limited chance of success in a a monsters vs PCs battle, we are talking about two guys taking on a CR way, way, way beyond anything they should have a chance at. While hold person comes close, there is nothing in the game that allows such nasty save-or-almost-certain-death, and nothing that does it without: SR, an AoO, a spell slot, feats or other investments, etc. Even the heavens oracle isn't even close to being able to color spray the giant for more then the minimum effect.
Then drop the odds again because of the need for specific positioning, and the certainty of death for one or both if the witch doesn't go first...
Good question. Same question, two wizards.
Offhand, I can't think of anything but charm person, or perhaps the real long-shot of a lucky blindness spell, that would take out the giant.
My money is on the witches.
Then drop the odds again because of the need for specific positioning, and the certainty of death for one or both if the witch doesn't go first...
Given the giants stealth of +2 (+6 in snow) and its -1 initiative mod, I think the odds aren't affected much. Again, we are talking about two second level characters vs a CR 9. They should have basically 0% chance of defeating the giant.
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Then death throes, and the witch is dead. How many spare witches do you have?Death Throes probably doesn't fit into the dead Balor's ideal combat resolution plans. The fact that the Balor's death will cause the death of some of it's attackers will likely not cause the Balor to expose itself to greater risk in a fight as described.
So is the ideal situation for two balors to be fighting, alone, against each other, in a vast, featureless field, when one witch walks up within thirty feet and decides intervene? My point, which may have been missed, is that this situation won't happen. Anything that assumes an army of 1st level witch suicide hexers is not a "game changer." Nor does it meaningfully relate to the utility of the ability, which is a once a day, Will-based effect that makes a target helpless, and has the notable limitation of requiring you to be within 30 feet.
If I, personally, were a balor, and I saw a person walk across a vast, featureless plane to within thirty feet of me while I was fighting another balor, I would personally kill it on the spot. It's like the age-old question, "What do you do when you find a fluffy bunny on the 9th level of a dungeon?" Answer: kill it or, leave the room immediately and don't come back. Because there isn't any suitable explanation for it being there that isn't bad. When a person moves in the wrong direction in relation to a balor, that is not a person you want alive. Quickened Telekinesis it is.
Good question. Same question, two wizards.Offhand, I can't think of anything but charm person, or perhaps the real long-shot of a lucky blindness spell, that would take out the giant.
Hold person. Heightened glitterdust. Grease.
Hold person. Heightened glitterdust. Grease.Good question. Same question, two wizards.Offhand, I can't think of anything but charm person, or perhaps the real long-shot of a lucky blindness spell, that would take out the giant.
Hold person is a 3rd level spell for a wizard, so not yet.
Again, heightened is not available on a second level spell, and all it would do is blind the giant for up to four rounds assuming it failed it save every round.Grease would be a good option especially on the giants weapon, but it really isn't going to make or break the giant.
Granted, hold person would be nice for a higher level group, however it is worse in almost every other way except for range, and since it allows a save every round, you would want to use it when it was close to a coup de grace ally. It is also a very limited resource, and doesn't scale, until you get hold monster, which would be a limited resource as well.
EDIT: I consider hold person to be among the most powerful spells for its level for mostly the same reason as slumber - it sets up a coupe de grace. In my home games I rule that it stuns instead, which puts its power about right for a 2nd level spell.
I think the better question is what ability other then slumber hex allows a group to trivialize a large percentage of the encounters in an adventure path? If these tactics are so effective, why isn't the military tactics of the world based on using slumber hex?Is this intended as a serious question? Two-handed weapons, Summon Monster SLA, Glitterdust, Blindness/Deafness, Haste, Smite Evil, Animal Companions.... to name a paltry freaking few. The witch pays heavily for their hexes....fewer spells, a smaller and much more limited spell list, a familiar that cannot be easily replaced...
None of the things you mentioned (except perhaps blindness) are going to make much difference in a APL+4 more-difficult-then-epic encounter. They may affect the encounter, but barring crazy luck, they aren't going to win it. Witches get 6 hexes by 10th level, slumber is only one of them. A hex is about as valuable to a witch as a combat feat is to a fighter. Anyway witches are full casters who are most comparable to what is generally considered the most powerful class in the game - wizards. Pardon me for not felling bad for the poor witch.
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Then death throes, and the witch is dead. How many spare witches do you have?
How many low ranking demons with 1 level as witches?
Depend on what demon lord you follow.And using the hex and then getting behind total cover isn't so hard. Using it is a standard action so you still get a move action.
Then death throes, and the witch is dead. How many spare witches do you have?Death Throes probably doesn't fit into the dead Balor's ideal combat resolution plans. The fact that the Balor's death will cause the death of some of it's attackers will likely not cause the Balor to expose itself to greater risk in a fight as described.So is the ideal situation for two balors to be fighting, alone, against each other, in a vast, featureless field, when one witch walks up within thirty feet and decides intervene? My point, which may have been missed, is that this situation won't happen. Anything that assumes an army of 1st level witch suicide hexers is not a "game changer." Nor does it meaningfully relate to the utility of the ability, which is a once a day, Will-based effect that makes a target helpless, and has the notable limitation of requiring you to be within 30 feet.
If I, personally, were a balor, and I saw a person walk across a vast, featureless plane to within thirty feet of me while I was fighting another balor, I would personally kill it on the spot. It's like the age-old question, "What do you do when you find a fluffy bunny on the 9th level of a dungeon?" Answer: kill it or, leave the room immediately and don't come back. Because there isn't any suitable explanation for it being there that isn't bad. When a person moves in the wrong direction in relation to a balor, that is not a person you want alive. Quickened Telekinesis it is.
Then if I was one of the balors, I would order my minions to send some larvae near us every round, forcing my enemy to expend its actions against the larvae and not me. I would promise elevation to a stronger form of demon the last larva that distracted my enemy and its handler.
Maybe the larva wouldn't be willing to comply (with no reasonable chance to survive) but its hander? He would be very happy to oblige.
Good question. Same question, two wizards.Offhand, I can't think of anything but charm person, or perhaps the real long-shot of a lucky blindness spell, that would take out the giant.
My money is on the witches.
Then drop the odds again because of the need for specific positioning, and the certainty of death for one or both if the witch doesn't go first...Given the giants stealth of +2 (+6 in snow) and its -1 initiative mod, I think the odds aren't affected much. Again, we are talking about two second level characters vs a CR 9. They should have basically 0% chance of defeating the giant.
We're assuming elite array for this witch? So if she put her next highest score into Dexterity, that gives her Initiative +2. That's only a 3 point difference with the giant's initiative. She can improve that with Improved Initiative, of course, but that's one more necessity towards making this work, and she has two feats at most--and in all likelihood, one of them spent on Extra Hex. If she does have a +6 Initiative, she still needs to roll a 14 to *ensure* she acts before the giant.
Perception also isn't a class skill for her, and at this point, she's running out of points to invest in Wisdom. Put her sole +1 into Wisdom, and she's looking at a +3 perception modifier--not the best odds of spotting the giant, especially if its snowy. The giant, meanwhile, rocks a +10 Perception; if the party isn't trying to be stealthy, he can spot them 100 feet out without rolling, and one thrown rock certainly annihilates the witch. It probably can't take the fighter out in one hit with the rock, but there's a good chance in two--and both need to close in fairly close before Slumber+CDG can possibly work.
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And using the hex and then getting behind total cover isn't so hard. Using it is a standard action so you still get a move action.
Unless you have Spring Slumber Hex, that means you had to start your turn within 30 feet of the balor. Which means, you're dead, because on its last turn, the balor killed you. This isn't even vast featureless plane chess, this is vast featureless plane tic-tac-toe.
the scenarios are complete corner cases tailored heavily towards the witches favor
giants aren't going to avoid thorps because of the extremely slim chance of being slumbered by a prodigal fledgeling witch followed by a coup de grace from a strong, power attacking,scythe wielding combatant. balors aren't either.
unless the 2nd level witch is a dreamspeaking elf with a 20 int for a DC 17 save, the giant has a 55% or better chance of making the save
and if the giant makes it, he is immune for 24 hours
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So this sort of scenario can't happen any more. The Balors have got to keep their combat well away from the masses - just in case.
This... is false.
Because you can't envision it happening any more it seems true (and it's a totally understandable thing, by the way), but ultimately the idea doesn't hold water.
Let me put it this way: since wizards (well, most of them) have access to Simulacrum, why aren't Balors, Pit Fiends, all genies, contract devils, and pretty much every single creature with the wish special ability, much less every outsider in existence after them?
Wizards (and summoners) should all be actively exterminated before 13th level. That shouldn't be too hard, really, for dedicated immortal creatures. Heck, it seems entirely feasible that against such a threat, creatures would band together to destroy all potential upstarts.
I mean, if Aboleths can craft an engine of destruction that can level a planet, than Contract Devils (three CR higher) should be able to do better - they don't even need to destroy all mortals, just those pesky wizards and summoners. They can leave plenty of magical summoning objects for other mortals to find and use and damn themselves.
The reasons all these high-level creatures aren't bothered by low level creatures' special abilities are simple:
1) there are a lot of low-level creatures
2) there are a lot of options for those low-level creatures
3) the chances of those low level creatures having all the right options are slim
4) the chances of those low level creatures having all the right circumstances are slim
This means that the chances are extraordinarily slim indeed.
That's four single points of failure which, truth be told, are really big. The likelihood of all of the "right options" coming together to create a single event are impressive to say the least.
I, personally, don't worry about a terrorist hijacking an airplane and crashing into my house. I don't worry about a meteor shower dropping from the sky and killing me (even if it's a golf-ball size). I don't worry about having a sudden heart attack from over exertion (though I might should start, given my age and health).
Why? Because those don't affect my daily life, and the likelihood of any of them happening is very, very small.
But you might feel that the possibility makes the more powerful creatures nervous anyway. Hint: it doesn't. My son is now two years and four months old. He's adorable. He's also... really strong. Like, really strong. For his age, he's consistently exceeded all the physical "he should be able to do this" marks (except weight, which he was really under in for a while) his life to date. He also picks up everything. I mean, everything. His reach is monstrous. He can get into cabinets, drawers, and everywhere, and he generally laughs - often literally - in the face of "child-proof" (even while his daddy struggles with them).
Horridly enough, he has gotten hold of steak knives before - the really sharp kind. (He did so by running and opening the dish washer while I was cleaning a mess he'd made.) He then ran at me with it brandishing it proudly like a toy. Terrifying.
Now, with his strength he could easily have killed me - he loves bopping daddy with things (such as a lightsaber) and climbing on me while holding things, and all sorts of stuff like that. (Obviously this didn't happen.)
I wasn't really concerned for my own safety because, you know, I was concerned for his at the time... but let's say, for a moment, he did want to kill me, and he was capable of it, and I was in that dangerous situation. Still wouldn't have really spooked me, and I wouldn't lose sleep at night over it. Why? Because I'm bigger, smarter, tougher, and far, far more powerful, clever, and mightier than he is.
It is simply exceedingly improbable that I'd get seriously hurt in the encounter.
Is it possible? Yeah. He certainly has the strength and (in this case) the tools. (And he's drawn blood from me on biting only very recently - we're training him not to do that, poor teething buddy.)
But the difference in power between the two of us is so vast that, even in the perfect situation for me to "lose", I don't fear to - not really. I'm far, far more likely to get hurt keeping him from harm than I would be doing anything else (usually that's where my "owchies" come from - keeping him safe).
The Balor is similar. He's so big, so powerful, and so mighty, that a puny little witch isn't threatening to him. He can liesurely squash her like a bug. And if absolutely everything goes right for her? She's got a 5% chance for success. 5% is stupidly awful against a creature that can swallow your soul and spit out a demon-servitor, or has a host of other abilities they could kill you with at absolutely no effort.
I mean, if I attacked most currently active well-trained military professionals with a knife, even if they were unarmed, you can lay odds on the guy that's going down and likely dying rapidly: hint, it's going to be me.
Sure I might somehow get lucky, but the odds are not in my favor. They're not going to lose sleep over it.
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Unless you have Spring Slumber Hex, that means you had to start your turn within 30 feet of the balor. Which means, you're dead, because on its last turn, the balor killed you. This isn't even vast featureless plane chess, this is vast featureless plane tic-tac-toe.
And using the hex and then getting behind total cover isn't so hard. Using it is a standard action so you still get a move action.
I see you haven't touched the little problem of your balor expending his action killing mooks instead of trying to kill the other balor. Great way to win a Balor vs Balor fight. :-)
Beside the witch can wait till the balor move near him. Or be one of 30 different mooks pushed into the fray by stronger mooks. How will the balor know what mook he need to kill?
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So this sort of scenario can't happen any more. The Balors have got to keep their combat well away from the masses - just in case.This... is false.
Because you can't envision it happening any more it seems true (and it's a totally understandable thing, by the way), but ultimately the idea doesn't hold water.
Let me put it this way: since wizards (well, most of them) have access to Simulacrum, why aren't Balors, Pit Fiends, all genies, contract devils, and pretty much every single creature with the wish special ability, much less every outsider in existence after them?
Wizards (and summoners) should all be actively exterminated before 13th level. That shouldn't be too hard, really, for dedicated immortal creatures. Heck, it seems entirely feasible that against such a threat, creatures would band together to destroy all potential upstarts.
I mean, if Aboleths can craft an engine of destruction that can level a planet, than Contract Devils (three CR higher) should be able to do better - they don't even need to destroy all mortals, just those pesky wizards and summoners. They can leave plenty of magical summoning objects for other mortals to find and use and damn themselves.
The reasons all these high-level creatures aren't bothered by low level creatures' special abilities are simple:
1) there are a lot of low-level creatures
2) there are a lot of options for those low-level creatures
3) the chances of those low level creatures having all the right options are slim
4) the chances of those low level creatures having all the right circumstances are slimThis means that the chances are extraordinarily slim indeed.
That's four single points of failure which, truth...
Specious argument. There isn't only 1 inhabited planet in all the galaxy or the other galaxies. The balors (or whatever) don't have the leisure and time to annihilate every caster on every planet of every system of the universe, like we don't have the methods to annihilate every mite in our houses. At most they (and we) can keep them in check, eliminating those that cause problems. And to do that they need to use as little resources as possible, as they have enemies and competitors that would benefit for that distraction and the resources spent killing the spellcasters.
Your idea that devil, demons and genies would make a united front is really ludicrous.For the aboleth thing, read this thread.
Simulacron has his problems, but it is way outside the intent of this discussion.
Your son: let's make a realistic example. You have a gun? You normally leave it around loaded in a location where your son can pick it up? Or you put it away in a safe place?
Your son can potentially kill or wound you with a gun, so people generally take precautions to avoid that and still we have gun related wounding and killing. The big monsters susceptible to sleep are in the same position. They will have to take precautions, including not attacking villages as singletons and still some of them will die to slumber.
Slumber is uniquely game changing?
A widened cloak of dreams is 10 foot radius for 1 round/level. Still, at 11th level, when a witch/wizard gets it, that's 11 rounds that can put someone to sleep for an entire minute (10 rounds) from a single cast. The hex doesn't come close. You want that for 11 rounds? That's 11 standard actions and you only get one chance, 2 with accursed hex. The spell is a single standard action and enemies can be affected multiple times. Asleep 1 round at level 1, 2 rounds at level 2, etc requiring an action each and every time for the hex?? C'mon...
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The example I gave was a battlefield - thousands upon thousands of mooks all slugging it out on the ground whilst the big guys tussle it out on top.
Tacticslion - I take your point but you were looking at Balor vs 1st level witch rather than Balor vs Balor.
TriOmegaZero - the Balors are going to be fully occupied against each other, if one of them starts killing some of the ants below him he's probably going to give away a vital advantage.
As far as the likelyhood of a 1st level Witch with Slumber in all of these cases which people keep claiming are rare, it doesn't come down to probability, it comes down to utility. If it turns out that Slumber Hex is more useful in more cases, either defending a village or having it in some of your foot soldiers, then its incidence will increase. People, including NPCs in a realistic world setting, gravitate towards wealth and power.
This whole issue about circumstances is always very geared towards PCs vs monsters. When a giant attacks a village, he's not going to be able to keep an eye on all the people and animals running around screaming around him. A witch will have no trouble getting within range of the giant while the giant is otherwise engaged - kicking down buildings, picking up a cow to take home or smashing a few heads. As long as the village has a 1st level witch there, with slumber hex, I think there's a very good chance that that giant wont go home. That, to me, makes the 1st level witch my arcane caster of choice in my village of 150 people (see earlier post on demographics), and that will drive up the incidence of arcane casters wanting to be witches (supply and demand and subsequent value placed on the caster).
Richard
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the scenarios are complete corner cases tailored heavily towards the witches favor
giants aren't going to avoid thorps because of the extremely slim chance of being slumbered by a prodigal fledgeling witch followed by a coup de grace from a strong, power attacking,scythe wielding combatant. balors aren't either.
unless the 2nd level witch is a dreamspeaking elf with a 20 int for a DC 17 save, the giant has a 55% or better chance of making the save
and if the giant makes it, he is immune for 24 hours
Corner cases aren't as important to PCs as they are to NPCs, because PCs do lots of different things all the time whereas NPCs' tend to lead repetitive lives.
An "extremely slim chance" (which I *don't* agree with, BTW, but anyway) of a giant getting killed by a witch when raiding a village becomes much more significant if that giant has to raid villages once a month in order to eat.
An "extremely slim chance" (which I *do* agree with) of two fighting Balors coming within range of a witch with slumber hex down on the battlefield becomes a near certainty during the course of a battle unless the Balors keep out of the way.
Richard
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Slumber is uniquely game changing?
A widened cloak of dreams is 10 foot radius for 1 round/level. Still, at 11th level, when a witch/wizard gets it, that's 11 rounds that can put someone to sleep for an entire minute (10 rounds) from a single cast. The hex doesn't come close. You want that for 11 rounds? That's 11 standard actions and you only get one chance, 2 with accursed hex. The spell is a single standard action and enemies can be affected multiple times. Asleep 1 round at level 1, 2 rounds at level 2, etc requiring an action each and every time for the hex?? C'mon...
Yes, but that's a high level spell (and, note, *spell*, not *su*). There aren't going to be that many people in a game world able to do that.
Richard
Cloak of dreams is level 6. Mid-range is more accurate.
I didn't say it was trivial. 3 levels of spells is an entire third of the full spread of spells, though. Given how the powers scale that's a significant loss.
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An "extremely slim chance" (which I *don't* agree with, BTW, but anyway) of a giant getting killed by a witch when raiding a village becomes much more significant if that giant has to raid villages once a month in order to eat.
An "extremely slim chance" (which I *do* agree with) of two fighting Balors coming within range of a witch with slumber hex down on the battlefield becomes a near certainty during the course of a battle unless the Balors keep out of the way.
Richard
The giant leans his hunting grounds and learns to avoid the occasional village that has that witch like humans avoid hornet's nests. Also, if the giant doesn't try to enter the village proper itself, and is content to grab easy to reach livestock from the fields around the edge and departing immediately, the witch may not have time to get there before the giant is gone, especially if the giant is simply foraging as he travels from one point to another. It would increase the chances of him leaving the village center alone to be certain, but chances are that they don't need to bother with the village center to get the food they need to eat, and the villagers aren't going to try to stop every single giant that happens to be passing by if all the majority of giants are doing is grabbing a meal to go from a bordering field on their way by. They are more likely to develop a warning system so that they can pull in the livestock quickly giving the giant no reason to stick around without actually having to work. Attacks or raids on the village itself should be rather rare in any case if the village hopes to sustain itself, so chances are that other precautions would have been made to protect the core of the village; adding a witch would strengthen that defense, but would be less useful against a more random grab and go happening in the fields around the village, which is what most of the giant's raiding for food would consist of.
And there aren't going to be enough villages in the middle of giant country for a giant to make them a routine place to look for meals, either. If there are that many villages, there won't be enough giants around for it to be a problem. In the end, the few villages that do exist will learn how to avoid detection and attention rather than draw even more attention to themselves by routinely deploying offensive tactics. They may very well develop such tactics as a backup and a last ditch defense, but I don't see it being effective enough of a tactic often enough for it to be a very good primary strategy for the villagers, and thus not common enough that the giants would be that scared of it that they wouldn't look for opportunities to hit the outer fields and grazing lands. Even without the witch, though, the giants would likely find a number of annoying defenses that would prevent them from simply strolling through town.
Just like humans could in theory stand by a hornets nest all day and poke it with a stick, it's not something that any rational person does; too much work to avoid getting stung to death, and not enough reward. The giant would likely see a human village the same way; they could stand there and just annoy the humans with the right preparation, but it's not worth their while just for a bit of food when there are at least 3 other meadows close by with wild game just standing there for the taking. They might go to the village occasionally, but would only focus on the village routinely if the villagers themselves gave the giants a reason to.
As for the Balors, any witch that has a chance of surviving on the same battlefield as two Balors long enough to get close to them probably is not 1st or 2nd level, and has plenty of other tricks available to them. The balors are not going to be on the edge of the battlefield, and no PC or NPC that low of a level is going to want to be anywhere near the area near the two Balors, even if somehow they have the ability to do so without immediately dying.
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w.r.t. the giant and village situation, although I read what you're saying with interest, it doesn't seem to me to be addressing the point I'm putting forward.
What are these other offensive / defensive tactics that the village is going to have at its disposal and, in particular, how do they compare with the relatively simple expedient of having a 1st level slumber-hexing witch?
If you imagine your village having a defense "budget" which lets you recruit, say, one 2nd level PC-classed NPC or two 1st level PC-classed NPCs or twice that amount of NPC-classed NPCs what would you go for?
w.r.t. the Balor example - I disagree. I think wars are fought in the main by 1st and 2nd level minions with some higher level dudes slugging it among them. That 1st level witch isn't going to *choose* to be next to a Balor any more than, say, in LOTR any one of those humans and elves in Gladden Fields would have *chosen* to be next to a wyvern, troll or oliphaunt. The battle comes to you whether you like it or not.
Richard
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Beside the witch can wait till the balor move near him. Or be one of 30 different mooks pushed into the fray by stronger mooks. How will the balor know what mook he need to kill?He casts blasphemy and kills them all.
Beside the once day limit, there is this little thing:
Any nonevil creature within the area of a blasphemy spell suffers the following ill effects.
So you think that the mooks of a balor, in the abyss, will be non evil creatures? Fairly improbable.
I suspect that the population of non evil witches in the abyss is vanishing small.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I see you haven't touched the little problem of your balor expending his action killing mooks instead of trying to kill the other balor. Great way to win a Balor vs Balor fight. :-)Beside the witch can wait till the balor move near him. Or be one of 30 different mooks pushed into the fray by stronger mooks. How will the balor know what mook he need to kill?
Actually, I did. Quickened telekinesis. Sorry, Charlie. That's assuming, of course, that the balor doesn't just stand halfway between the witch and the other balor, and use Cleave to kill the witch with its whip while attacking the other balor. Or simply move behind the witch, and then kill them. Or teleport away. Or Bull Rush the witch into a pack of dretches. Whatever. I'm a balor, I know I can kill some crazy little humanoid in one hit.
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The two Balors are fighting in the midst of hundreds of Dretches or whatever.
Neither Balor knows where there might be a 1st level witch or two, therefore neither Balor can take *any* action against *any* witch. The only thing they could do is stop fighting each other and start indulging in a bit of indiscriminate mook-slaughter. The problem is that as soon as one takes his eye of the Ball-or the other one presses his advantage.
When you're fighting another Balor, killing some crazy humanoid with one hit is an indulgence you can't afford, even if you knew which humanoid was a threat (and any one of the hundreds around you could be).
Teleporting away, of course, is punishable by firing squad :-)
Richard