Aboleths are....letdowns?


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Ok, all the books and everything make out aboleths as horrifying and powerful creatures who went and created a lot of the aberrations in the bestiary. But if that is the case... why are they so weak? I mean, they are like... half the CR of some of the creature's they created...

How are they so terrifying???


Humans created the owlbear.

How many humans match it's cr?

If you can create something above your cr, you have power.


yeah, but the owlbear is a bit different then say... a Shoggoth...


if they can create it, they are powerful, just not in the way the book defines as "cr"


K177Y C47 wrote:
How are they so terrifying???

3/day dominate person at CR 7. DC 22. They also infect you with their mucus and force you near/into water for survival. They're pretty mean and awful creatures and their narrative infers they're archaic and smarter than you. Also psionics and they come in many flavors!

They're also a legacy critter from all the way back in AD%D, which explains a lot about why they are what they are.


K177Y C47 wrote:
yeah, but the owlbear is a bit different then say... a Shoggoth...

Look at the mid and high level clockwork creatures, solders,dragons,ect. made by man, much higher CR then a human :)


K177Y C47 wrote:
a lot of the abberations don't strike me as ridiculous evil cult leading, adventure topping creatures in the way that the more advanced Beholders or the Psionic classed/Wizard classed Mind Flayers do...

To be fair, these guys are fish. Underwater creatures may have some trouble because of the lack of underwater adventures.


MrSin wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
a lot of the abberations don't strike me as ridiculous evil cult leading, adventure topping creatures in the way that the more advanced Beholders or the Psionic classed/Wizard classed Mind Flayers do...
To be fair, these guys are fish. Underwater creatures may have some trouble because of the lack of underwater adventures.

haha true true. But even with a lack of underwater adventures it wouldn't be to hard to get them in a game. Especially if you take advantage of the mind control thing they have going on. Like.. I feel like they should have been powered up to like CR 15 creatures with more "mind" abilities like Dominate Monster and hold monster and made into "super villains" who cap stone adventures. They would simply dominate a wall of creatures (give them an ability like the Thrallmasters from 3.5) and have them sitting away in their hidden lair as they manipulate and control everything from the background.


A kind of Informed Ability.

My own interpretation is that alone, aboleths aren't a huge threat to a competent group of player characters (say levels 6-9), once said player characters inevitably figure out what's happening (and if they're paranoid enough then they will). It's what happens when you get the Veiled Masters (the one statted up in the final Shattered Star adventure was CR 19 including the 5 levels of Loremaster) and the entities above them that things get more interesting. The aboleths as a race may be a huge threat, but it's not the average aboleth that you have to watch out for. Well, not as much, anyway.

For example, aboleths could well take class levels. Ogonthunn did. It's not necessarily the average aboleth creating all these horrors, just like how it's not the average human creating clockwork armies or mixing-and-matching Because A Wizard Did It. Rather, it's the "elite" aboleths, the above-the-norm ones.


Lords of Madness(3.5) had a ton of nice Aboleth info to make them feel more alien and terrifying. The Lightless Depths(Dungeon adventure, part of Savage Tide)even gives you a overview on an Aboleth city.(the place is in torpor, and still creepy as heck.)


K177Y C47 wrote:
MrSin wrote:
K177Y C47 wrote:
a lot of the abberations don't strike me as ridiculous evil cult leading, adventure topping creatures in the way that the more advanced Beholders or the Psionic classed/Wizard classed Mind Flayers do...
To be fair, these guys are fish. Underwater creatures may have some trouble because of the lack of underwater adventures.
haha true true. But even with a lack of underwater adventures it wouldn't be to hard to get them in a game. Especially if you take advantage of the mind control thing they have going on. Like.. I feel like they should have been powered up to like CR 15 creatures with more "mind" abilities like Dominate Monster and hold monster and made into "super villains" who cap stone adventures. They would simply dominate a wall of creatures (give them an ability like the Thrallmasters from 3.5) and have them sitting away in their hidden lair as they manipulate and control everything from the background.

That's how I'd run them. Put them in a lake at the bottom of a horrific eldritch temple used to as a horrific place of sacrilege and god hate. Abeloth's are too old to need gods they don't create themselves. Definitely not the same thing as meeting an Alhoon.

Rathendar wrote:
Lords of Madness(3.5) had a ton of nice Aboleth info to make them feel more alien and terrifying.

Fun fact! Cracked open my old book. First few pages are an anatomy class... I expected eldritch horror, not biology class!


haha


For a CR 7 critter they can be pretty dangerous. They have an INT of 15 and as such they would use their abilities in an intelligent way. They are also social creatures (they live in cities) and there would often be a lot of them around. A DC 22 dominate monster is pretty scary for a party of 7th level characters; a cleric at that level probably has a will save of +10 and a fighter could be as low as +2.

Being able to use Project Image at will is pretty awesome, as is Veil. However, they are particularly good if combined with other class abilities. Giving them class levels is perfectly reasonable and in fact I would kind of expect Aboleths to have them considering they are an intelligent species. The Aboleth presented is basically your Aboleth version of a L1 commoner in that society.

I think it would be rare to have an Aboleth with levels in a full BAB class. Most of them would take levels in a spellcasting class. Magus might work fairly well, actually, as well as the obvious sorcerer and wizard.

Also remember that aboleths have a lot of slaves that do their dirty work for them. An aboleth city is probably guarded by such slaves.

Peet


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Aaaand lets not forget the Veiled master PrC.


As far back as I can remember (in the D&D days) Aboleth's like Illithid's and Krakens were known to be aberration's that were closely tied in with Psionic's. If I remember correctly in 3.5 you had options for both magical and psionic variants yet whom ever I seen running an Aboleth NPC had added levels of Psion (Telepath) onto there basic creature stat and at that point they were bad ass.


Alleran wrote:
For example, aboleths could well take class levels. Ogonthunn did.

That's actually what I like about aboleths. Because the base aboleth is only CR 7, you get to give them class levels to make them actually scary to high level PCs. Too many of the fun monsters have too high of a base CR for you to give them a lot of class levels.


While I prefer illithids to aboleth (aboleth are just too inhuman physically to be properly terryfying) they can be quite powerful. I'm planning to use them as a primary/secondary enemy for an underground adventure, and some of them will definitly have class levels.


Yeah, I always assumed the CR 7 aboleth mentioned in the Bestiary was the equivalent of the CR 1/3 Commoner. In which case your average aboleth is pretty damn scary to the majority of the human population, even many of those above average.

Adventurers are like the ultra-rich 1%, the normal rules need not apply to them.


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Alleran wrote:

A kind of Informed Ability.

My own interpretation is that alone, aboleths aren't a huge threat to a competent group of player characters (say levels 6-9), once said player characters inevitably figure out what's happening (and if they're paranoid enough then they will). It's what happens when you get the Veiled Masters (the one statted up in the final Shattered Star adventure was CR 19 including the 5 levels of Loremaster) and the entities above them that things get more interesting. The aboleths as a race may be a huge threat, but it's not the average aboleth that you have to watch out for. Well, not as much, anyway.

For example, aboleths could well take class levels. Ogonthunn did. It's not necessarily the average aboleth creating all these horrors, just like how it's not the average human creating clockwork armies or mixing-and-matching Because A Wizard Did It. Rather, it's the "elite" aboleths, the above-the-norm ones.

This last bit is what I always assumed. That the aboleth stat block was for Joe-Smoe level 1 commoner aboleth, and the truly powerful ones were those that took class levels.

I also assumed that the powerful ones got a higher point buy (like the difference between the 10 point commoners and the 20 point PC wizard). If this is so, then if even the lowest statas of their society have such higher stats than a human, as well as powerful magical abilities and towering forms, then yes...they are a threat.

Dark Archive

Aboleths are scary because they like to take class levels. Spellcasting class levels.


I think James Jacob has said also that there are aboleth variants of way higher baseline CR that just haven't been statted yet.

Silver Crusade

@OP: If you get an opportunity, look for information on an old AD&D boxed campaign titled "Night Below". It describes the machinations of a large group of Aboleth bent on maximizing their Dominate abilities and may help put them into a more positive light for you.


http://alzrius.wordpress.com/2010/04/16/the-aboleth-antediluvian-horror-or- misunderstood-cuddle-fish/

This article does a pretty good job of why the Aboleths don't really come across as terrifying eldritch abominations by the standards of the setting.


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Even a plain old aboleth can be dangerous if you are creative with its abilities. Here's one idea I had for tactics for one:
Before combat: mirage arcana to make your pool of water look like flat terrain. Wait for hapless adventurers.
Round 1: Hope that the adventurers don't notice the illusion and the lead character steps off the edge and into your pool. Cast dominate on said character.
Round 2: persistent image the same character appearing somewhere off to the side signaling that he is ok. Hope the players are distracted attempting to assist it.
Round 3: veil the dominated character to look like a skum and command him to attack the party.
Round 4: project image yourself above the waterline. Again hope the party is distracted by the illusion.
Round 5: try to dominate someone else while safely below.

If combat goes poorly, a smart aboleth should have an escape route. If combat goes well, it can continue fighting. You can never really predict the actions of players to plan too far ahead in combat.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Axial wrote:

Linky

This article does a pretty good job of why the Aboleths don't really come across as terrifying eldritch abominations by the standards of the setting.

Linkified

Sovereign Court

Yeah I have always assumed that monsters listed in Bestiary or Monster Manual are just the average joe, like the commoner of their races. When you meet an aboleth alone, he is just a scout and they probably wouldn't send their best one for the job.

At the biggest they form shoal (7 to 19 aboleth) and they obey their masters, the veiled masters (CR 14+) most of them tend to have class levels. The veiled master in shattered star AP is very impressive (CR 17 or 18 I forget).

Also Aboleth like it is said have been alive for a very long time and know everything that there is to know about the secrets of the world.

CR 7 is pretty darn impressive in its own right. Now of course if you are running a fantasy setting where everybody has class levels and all the racial leaders (Human kings, elven kings, dwarf kings etc..) for some reasons are CR 20+ and all the guards are level 10+ fighters yeah Aboleth aren't impressive.

I don't think most people run that kind of very high fantasy.


Well you have to consider that Aboleth can cast hypnotic pattern, illusory wall, mirage arcana, persistent image, programmed image, project image and veil as will. That mean that a single Aboleth can be a master of illusion and if it prepares a place anyone else their that can't see though illusions is basically helpless.


I agree that the bestiary entry just describes the race much like the ARG describes humans or elves. Then, apply 20 class levels as you would with most theorycrafted builds on these boards.

Webstore Gninja Minion

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Removed a post. Please do not use the word "retard" in that fashion.


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Add class levels.


The things that can cause the most lingering terror challenge your perception of reality.

Aboleths are supposedly beings from a time before known creation, who have a racially shared and perfect memory that goes as far back as into that time. They don't follow any kind of divine belief, because they were there when the gods came into being.

It's Lovecraftian, no-hope-for-humankind, alien thinking that makes the aboleth nasty.

Quite honestly, it's physical stats are not at all what makes them the terror that they are. Immeasurable knowledge, a base genius intelligence, and immeasurable time to conduct amoral experiments and raging desire for conquest is what does it.
The physical stats give it a squick factor to fit in with the rest of the aberration crowd.

It could have the stats of a normal human; the fluff behind it is what makes it a horrible creature.


That said, JJ has hinted that their view of themselves is quite over inflated and they're not near the power they think they are.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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The CR 7 aboleth is the bottom end of an entire range of creatures. The veiled masters are another. There are more, but we haven't yet done much with them. We will some day.


I made an Aboleth as a big bad. It's main threat was it's use of Ugathols. Made an Invasion of the Body Snatchers situation.

Also Gilmen and Skum work for an impending army.

Basically Aboleth aren't physically powerful, they're dangerous the same way that a mad scientist is dangerous.


Buri wrote:
That said, JJ has hinted that their view of themselves is quite over inflated and their not near the power they think they are.

It seems pointless to include Lovecraftian horrors in your setting and then cripple them in this way. If your dark and alien monsters aren't actually the powerful creatures they think they are, if they just have an overinflated opinion of themselves, then what's the point? The horror isn't there if the Great Old Ones or whoever are just ineffectual piles of tentacles whose plots get effortlessly stopped by humans.

Unless it's just a setup to a joke. Because the idea of creatures who think they are Lovecraftian horrors but actually are comically ineffectual is kinda funny.


Didn't the elder things create the shoggoths?


Vivianne Laflamme wrote:

It seems pointless to include Lovecraftian horrors in your setting and then cripple them in this way. If your dark and alien monsters aren't actually the powerful creatures they think they are, if they just have an overinflated opinion of themselves, then what's the point? The horror isn't there if the Great Old Ones or whoever are just ineffectual piles of tentacles whose plots get effortlessly stopped by humans.

Unless it's just a setup to a joke. Because the idea of creatures who think they are Lovecraftian horrors but actually are comically ineffectual is kinda funny.

They are powerful. But, iirc, they play up their own history. Again, iirc, I think James insinuated that they think they're responsible for Starfall when they're actually not. He didn't expand on this further and left it vague. I could search his posts or he could explain it if he's watching the thread. But, a lot of Paizo materials are written from the aspect of a given culture. They're not meant to be taken as absolute resources. So, the descriptions of a country are written in that culture's lens making it completely valid to have entirely conflicting viewpoints in another entry. Aboleths may beat their "chest" and proclaim themselves to be masters of the universe, but, objectively, they're not even though they are capable of wondrous and even terrible feats of magic.


Personally, I don't play Pathfinder for horror. I play it for Big Damn Heroes, or at least something similar. I hate Call of Cthulhu, and have no problem with Aboleth's not being some tyrannical horror all on their own.

I think they're included in the Bestiary because of tradition from several previous editions of Dungeons and Dragons.

Dark Archive

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Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
Buri wrote:
That said, JJ has hinted that their view of themselves is quite over inflated and their not near the power they think they are.

It seems pointless to include Lovecraftian horrors in your setting and then cripple them in this way. If your dark and alien monsters aren't actually the powerful creatures they think they are, if they just have an overinflated opinion of themselves, then what's the point? The horror isn't there if the Great Old Ones or whoever are just ineffectual piles of tentacles whose plots get effortlessly stopped by humans.

Unless it's just a setup to a joke. Because the idea of creatures who think they are Lovecraftian horrors but actually are comically ineffectual is kinda funny.

Well, they are against the 1st level commoners that make up 90% of the population. A 6th level PC would be epic, so the rules don't apply.

(A 6th level monk could break the longjump record, a 6th level ranger could break the archery record. Therefore level 6+=epic.)


Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
Buri wrote:
That said, JJ has hinted that their view of themselves is quite over inflated and their not near the power they think they are.

It seems pointless to include Lovecraftian horrors in your setting and then cripple them in this way. If your dark and alien monsters aren't actually the powerful creatures they think they are, if they just have an overinflated opinion of themselves, then what's the point? The horror isn't there if the Great Old Ones or whoever are just ineffectual piles of tentacles whose plots get effortlessly stopped by humans.

Unless it's just a setup to a joke. Because the idea of creatures who think they are Lovecraftian horrors but actually are comically ineffectual is kinda funny.

I wouldn't call them ineffectual. They just maintain power in means other than brute strength.

I mean the Doctor can take out armies of Daleks but doesn't physically fight them. at best he's physically a CR 3 creature.


Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
Buri wrote:
That said, JJ has hinted that their view of themselves is quite over inflated and their not near the power they think they are.

It seems pointless to include Lovecraftian horrors in your setting and then cripple them in this way. If your dark and alien monsters aren't actually the powerful creatures they think they are, if they just have an overinflated opinion of themselves, then what's the point? The horror isn't there if the Great Old Ones or whoever are just ineffectual piles of tentacles whose plots get effortlessly stopped by humans.

Unless it's just a setup to a joke. Because the idea of creatures who think they are Lovecraftian horrors but actually are comically ineffectual is kinda funny.

"Comically ineffectual" describes several Lovecraftian beings, including in the actual Lovecraft stories. The Elder Things, Mi-Go, and Great Race of Yith are prime examples; each race either did fail massively in some way or is destined to fail massively... or both. It was part of the general message that the universe is a horrible place for everyone and that even being a horror from beyond time and space does not allow you any form of hope.

Of course, that doesn't mean you can't play these creatures in such a way as to make them truly a horror. Say the typical aboleth... what if it loses to the heroes because it's part of the plan for the aboleth to lose to the heroes? What if the heroes succeeding against it is part of the aboleth's goal and only furthers its own plans? The heroes don't even have to find out what said plans are; just finding out that winning against the creature helped it accomplish what it was after is a very easy way to make their victory feel like a complete defeat.

It's even more fun to have the heroes succeed... and then find out that their success didn't matter. That killing that single aboleth did nothing to stop the plan it was part of from coming to fruition.

Humans defeating eldritch abominations showed up in Lovecraft's works many times... and in every case, the defeat either didn't matter or ultimately served to further that creature's goals or the plans of some other creature. And if they failed, the creature would simply get a bonus victory and go on to cause even more havoc. Either way, the heroes couldn't win because everything they did resulting in them losing. Play an aboleth like that and they'll feel like the eldritch abomination they are supposed to be.


Norgrim Malgus wrote:
@OP: If you get an opportunity, look for information on an old AD&D boxed campaign titled "Night Below". It describes the machinations of a large group of Aboleth bent on maximizing their Dominate abilities and may help put them into a more positive light for you.

That was an awesome boxed set...my players to this day find aboleths behind many of their current problems...the aboleths held quite a grudge over losing to mere mammals.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Claxon wrote:
I think they're included in the Bestiary because of tradition from several previous editions of Dungeons and Dragons.

Whether they are included as a "legacy creature" or not, it doesn't really matter. They exist so that we can use them. Goblins can be creepy, too, but they are also often just used to fight in a "normal" setting. Personally I like adding in some horror to my games, even if the PCs are a bunch of badasses. It is fun.


SeeleyOne wrote:
Claxon wrote:
I think they're included in the Bestiary because of tradition from several previous editions of Dungeons and Dragons.
Whether they are included as a "legacy creature" or not, it doesn't really matter. They exist so that we can use them. Goblins can be creepy, too, but they are also often just used to fight in a "normal" setting. Personally I like adding in some horror to my games, even if the PCs are a bunch of badasses. It is fun.

But Pathfinder isn't a game set up to be played that way. I've played enough CoC to know I hate it because more often then not the players lose. They die. They go insane. The go insane and kill the other players.

Pathfinder has an inherent gentleman's agreement that says the players always have a chance to win, usually at least 50/50 shot, more often more than that. Stacking the game against the players with the intent to kill them is frowned upon. In Pathfinder players barely even fear death, because at a certain level its irrelevant. The only thing you can do to truly frighten players is to TPK or destroy all their magical items. But CoC stacks the game against the players in the rules.

It's just two very different game types. Sure you could change either to be more what you wanted, but that's not what the games innately support.


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I once played CoC, but it was a game we played as detectives and the horrors took to the side and played a part in the mystery and revelation more than actively murdering us. Actually came off as closer to Lovecraft because of it, imo. I enjoyed playing a Noir detective with some knowledge of antiquity and experience with the paranormal that taught me when to get out of dodge. Probably one of the few groups nothing went wrong and I really enjoyed it, though a few people in the group were sad they weren't going to be eaten by an eldritch horror like they expected.

Anyways, I don't think DnD does horror in the most amazing way possible. Its possible to put fear into players, but mechanics for actually affecting someone with horror aren't the best, imo. Aboleth can be pretty horrifying, devouring other creatures intellects memories, antediluvian and even before the gods themselves, remembering things through genetics, and worshippers of greater horrors with greater power than any deity you've known about. That doesn't always translate well to horror when its effectively a fish that you can stab to death. A lot of that mystery and horror is gone once you come face to face with it, and its far from devastating physically.


Variant/Alt-Stat Aboleths that integrate with future Psychic Magic rules,
perhaps versions that directly slot into the different Psychic Magic Caster Classes ('cast as...X class of N level') seems a likely development whenever Psychic Magic is done up. As for not being impressed by the base Aboleths... Those are just the Commoners.


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Quandary wrote:
Variant/Alt-Stat Aboleths that integrate with future Psychic Magic rules,

Pfft, like that could never happen.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Vivianne Laflamme wrote:
Buri wrote:
That said, JJ has hinted that their view of themselves is quite over inflated and their not near the power they think they are.

It seems pointless to include Lovecraftian horrors in your setting and then cripple them in this way. If your dark and alien monsters aren't actually the powerful creatures they think they are, if they just have an overinflated opinion of themselves, then what's the point? The horror isn't there if the Great Old Ones or whoever are just ineffectual piles of tentacles whose plots get effortlessly stopped by humans.

Unless it's just a setup to a joke. Because the idea of creatures who think they are Lovecraftian horrors but actually are comically ineffectual is kinda funny.

In fact, the central idea that a less powerful race (the Elder Things) created a much more powerful race (the shoggoths) is right out of Lovecraft.

And at CR 7... Aboleth's aren't what I would say are "crippled" at all. Especially since it's no big deal to start putting class levels or just extra hit dice on them if you want.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Claxon wrote:
I think they're included in the Bestiary because of tradition from several previous editions of Dungeons and Dragons.

That... and because we've got plans for them eventually. Also because they're one of my favorite D&D monsters and as such, there was pretty much no way we'd do an OGL game without them.

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