|
I'm very much relishing starting up a Rogue/Wizard class; starting off with Rogue for Level 1, then level to Wizard, and get the Rogue to at least level 3 (maybe 5) and keep the Wizard leveling up. I think their stats can really compliment and the character could be really killer. But, is there a non-Core class that does this already for me wrapped in a single class that I haven't found yet?
Vivisectionist 3/Wizard 1/arcane trickster x if your using the spell like ability FAQs. Vivisectionist 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster X if not.
That look any more attractive? Rogue and Wizard don't normally compliment eachother at all. Alchemist is actually intellect based and has better saves and a lot of options that come with it.
rogue/assassin/wizard/arcane trickster could be fine though, you don't need to worry about strength if you sneak attack with rays, so you can afford to invest in int.
Rogue, in general, is not a strong class. Usually you can get everything you want from the rogue (including flavor) from another class and more besides.
Yes, the Alchemist is an intriguing option I will need to investigate. However, since the Wizard is also Intelligence based, I'm not sure why you (MrSin) feel it's not a good match for a Rogue who also has strong use of Intelligence. Plus, a high Dex is definitely useful to both classes.
Because rogue doesn't actually have class features that involve intelligence. They don't have a strong use of intelligence. Meanwhile, Mr Alchemist does. A wizard does. An arcanist does. What few rogue abilities scale with a stat scale with wisdom. You can say they have a strong use of intelligence if they have a strong use for intelligence. Their one use for intelligence is the one every other kid on the block has it for, skill points, which they also happen to have more than enough of.
In other news, alchemist has more to give. Discoveries tend to be better than rogue talents, they have better saves, extracts, poison use, poison resistance, and the mutagen. You can also mix it with a few of the other alchemist archetypes, such as Chirurgeon.
This guide Might help you some.
However if you want something that does everything a rogue does (generally speaking, the stealth, trapfinding, disarming, and intelligence based) I would suggest that a seeker crossblooded umbral sage sorcerer could do the trick straight through 20 levels. Take the umbral 9th level ability and you'll have effective hide in plain sight, seeker gets you the trapfinding, and sage makes you an intelligence based caster.
Yes, the Alchemist is an intriguing option I will need to investigate. However, since the Wizard is also Intelligence based, I'm not sure why you (MrSin) feel it's not a good match for a Rogue who also has strong use of Intelligence. Plus, a high Dex is definitely useful to both classes.
Rogues can't normally afford to invest that much in intelligence. They often need other things more. Finesse rogue is a common build I see, but over time players in my group have caught on that without strength there is very little damage that gets multiplied on crits, which is kind of important. Sneak attack works on most opponents in PF, but as you get to higher levels you do find yourself in fights where it doesn't work, and you can feel kind of useless at those times. Agile weapon enchantment helps with this though if you want to go with a low strength rogue.
Dex is a no-brainer.
Con, you will need this if you plan to run around backstabbing. If you don't drop them expect a full attack on their turn. No one likes being backstabbed :)
Wis to offset your low will save.
Maybe cha if you see yourself as the "face".
That's actually a lot of stats you need, and with so many skill ranks already, a lot of rogues can afford a not-so -great intelligence.
My 2cp anyway. Others have much more detailed understanding of the numbers involved this is just what I've observed.
|
|
This guide Might help you some.
However if you want something that does everything a rogue does (generally speaking, the stealth, trapfinding, disarming, and intelligence based) I would suggest that a seeker crossblooded umbral sage sorcerer could do the trick straight through 20 levels. Take the umbral 9th level ability and you'll have effective hide in plain sight, seeker gets you the trapfinding, and sage makes you an intelligence based caster.
Where can I find information on the "seeker"?
Where can I find information on the "seeker"?
Seeker is from the pathfinder society field guide. Its both an oracle and a sorcerer archetype.
Edit: Ninja'd! By seconds too.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You will always have people tell you that this or that won't work. If you want a rogue/wizard character, you can do it, and, regardless what the naysayers will tell you, it can be a viable character. Have fun with it!
And there is the guy putting words in people's mouths -- thank once again for that.
No one said it won't work. People said, "Hey if you want this might be a better choice and here is why."
Notice the difference?
1. Didn't happen
versus
2. Here is something possibly better, and why -- ultimately you can do either though.
And just because it still bugs me -- I point out my guide on the subject even realizes that rogue is still a perfectly viable option... maybe not the 'strongest' option, but still perfectly acceptable and viable.
You will always have people tell you that this or that won't work. If you want a rogue/wizard character, you can do it, and, regardless what the naysayers will tell you, it can be a viable character. Have fun with it!
I actually completely agree with this point too.
Vivisectionist 3/Wizard 1/arcane trickster x if your using the spell like ability FAQs. Vivisectionist 3/Wizard 3/Arcane Trickster X if not.
That look any more attractive? Rogue and Wizard don't normally compliment eachother at all. Alchemist is actually intellect based and has better saves and a lot of options that come with it.
Mindchemist/Vivisectionist
|
|
I just think that the class combo is a really good complement of each other. The Intelligence score for the Rogue allows it to really stack up the ranks on a large number of skills. During PFS play, many times many of those skills can come in very handy, especially Int based ones.
My one big fear with any multi-class is that both classes end up gimped in play because neither has the extra power that it would be if it was pure for the full equivalent level.
I think it would be really cool to have a Rogue/Wizard as Level 3/5. BUT, when going up against pure 8th level challenges I do worry that the character could easily get crushed. For instance, as one response already pointed out, putting that character into the middle of battle might be instantly fatal.
What the heck, I might try it out anyway. So what? It's only one character. If it works well...great....if it sucks...I'll stop playing it.
Last question. I have a choice of either making Strength 12 or Wisdom 12, which would you choose? Initially, I put the 12 in Wisdom to have a better Will save and to improve skill checks like Perception which are a core skill for a Rogue.
Full Stats:
S-10
D-18
I-18
W-12
C-10
CH-7
I think you have a fine build there. Personally I wouldn't sweat the dexterity as much as you have but that's just me. I would rather a 16 Dexterity and a 14 Con.
Rogue 3/ Wizard 3 is a perfectly legitimate choice. If you are considering archetypes the rake and the thug are both nice choices, and admixture school wizard is solid as well.
yeah even with elf I would consider starting with a 14 Dex and getting the extra HP... but not doing so is fine as well.
Elf makes an excellent arcane trickster.
Anyone said magus yet?
The Archaeologist Archetype for Bard can function as a nice middle ground between Rogue and Mage, as long as you are not wanting sneak attack. If you like SA, look at the Sandman Archetype too.
My magus is basically the rogue of our party.
My last trapfinder was a songbird, and the time before that it was a bear, and the time before that it was 100 chickens... Like we'd send a real person ahead to check for dangerous traps.
More importantly! There are lots of alternative ways to handle traps. Sometimes those are the most fun.
Alchemist
My magus is basically the rogue of our party. 30 stealth at level 10, hips-lite via hellcat stealth. Perception and disable device as class skills via traits, and he does vastly more damage and has more utility than a rogue. He can't disable magic traps yet (magi get too many cool tricks to lose a level imo), but so far dispel has handled that when its come up.
You can disarm magic traps with a 2nd level spell, Aram Zey something or another. Wand would take care of things for you.
The Arcanist is a good entry for a trickster also.
My magus is basically the rogue of our party. 30 stealth at level 10, hips-lite via hellcat stealth. Perception and disable device as class skills via traits, and he does vastly more damage and has more utility than a rogue. He can't disable magic traps yet (magi get too many cool tricks to lose a level imo), but so far dispel has handled that when its come up.You can disarm magic traps with a 2nd level spell, Aram Zey something or another. Wand would take care of things for you.
The Arcanist is a good entry for a trickster also.
Aram Zey's Focus. Probably could've had a longer duration, but you can always put it on a scroll or 2 or 3.
Sniper rogue 3, then admixture wizard 3 is generally a solid choice. Extending the range of your Sneak Attacks to 40 ft with Deadly Range can be extremely beneficial at low-mid level until you can afford sniper's goggles (at 20,000 gp market price, you probably won't see one until about 9th-10th level); Bleeding Attack, Sniper's Eye, and Surprise Attack are rogue talents to help you Sneak Attack more often and get more damage when you do (you can take the Extra Rogue Talent feat more than once, so plan accordingly). Admixture to change the energy type of your damaging evocations can really help expand the usefulness of your spells; ray of frost is a ranged touch attack useable all day that can be changed with Versatile Evocation (if needed), although acid splash ignores SR (more important at higher levels). The Magical Knack trait (outside PFS) can help mitigate the hit to your CL when you switch to wizard/arcane trickster levels.
Later on, Reach Spell and Intensified Spell, in combination with shocking grasp, can give you a decent 1d6/level (10d6 max.) ranged touch attack (in place of fireball/lightning bolt for a 3rd-level spell slot) until you hit the arcane trickster capstone (and it's an evocation, which means you can switch out the energy type as an Admixture wizard). Note, if you take Magical Knack, Intensified Spell becomes useful earlier. Quicken Spell is pretty much a must have when you gain 5th-level spells, although a metamagic rod is an (expensive) option: Quickened true strike before a Sneak Attack ranged touch spell.
Anyone said magus yet?
With a sword of subtlety it can work, but it's a very difficult climb. If you go with alchemist (vivisectionist) as your secondary it can really help make up for it, through the lower levels.
Anyone said magus yet?With a sword of subtlety it can work, but it's a very difficult climb. If you go with alchemist (vivisectionist) as your secondary it can really help make up for it, through the lower levels.
Based on the OP, I am thinking that we are not all that interested in the application of sneak attack and are more into the utility role and being able to cast spells, deal with traps and other problems, and still be able to do combat pretty well. Picking up the aforementioned Trapfinding Focus spell along with something like Rope Trick and/or Knock for utility uses with Spell Blending.
Build would most likely be human, and could really take advantage of the Heighten Spell -> Preferred Spell trick to convert those prepared utility spells into combat spells on the fly.
This could totally work.
Yeah again if sneak attack isn't a huge deal I still really like the seeker crossblooded sage/umbral sorcerer. You have trapfinding, hide in plain sight, full spell casting, intelligence based, bonuses on perception and disable device and it is all in a single class.
I find a lot of times with such a character what you can do without magic is just as important as what you can do with it.
seeker crossblooded sage/umbral sorcererAs cool as that sounds, its illegal.
Was a silly FAQs imo...
Additionally though, if your playing PFS you can use the SLA FAQs to your advantage, and vivisectionist is banned.
seeker crossblooded sage/umbral sorcererAs cool as that sounds, its illegal.
At PFS? Yes. At my tables (and many I've been at)? No. It's a ridiculous ruling.
It's just another method that paizo uses to screw the sorcerer (again).
It's a good spell, unfortunately not on the magus' list, which is a bit short imo, but I suppose that's the tradeoff. Guess I'll need to try to find some scrolls or a wand for when I really need to bust a magic trap and dispel isn't cutting it. Thanks for pointing it out, never noticed it before. :)You can disarm magic traps with a 2nd level spell, Aram Zey something or another. Wand would take care of things for you.
The Arcanist is a good entry for a trickster also.
There's an Arcana for that!
|
|
I'm moderately interested in sneak attack but I think I'm scared straight with the realization of responses here that the rogue/wizard can get in some serious danger getting into melee in later levels.
The biggest thing for the rogue is the ability to scout ahead for traps and disabling them. Spells get used up too quickly and there are many areas and different times to check for traps.
Also, the rogue has some cool opportunities to gain various feats to improve on their defenses and combat skills.
If he's going to scout ahead, he should be able to defend himself if he runs into trouble, that's why I'd be concerned to only "dip" into Rogue for 1 level.
One really good possibility which I would absolutely take advantage of is giving him a bow and the elven curved blade (with Weapon Finesse). The real question is, how many levels of Rogue should I give him. I sort of like odd levels since it will give him more backstab dice. BUT, of course, that takes away from spell power. Decisions....decisions.
If you're after the rogue levels for the scouting/utility, rather being a ranged touch Sneak Attack blaster (the main focus of arcane trickster, IMO), then single-classed bard (archaeologist, archivist, detective, or sandman archetype) can easily take the place of a rogue for scouting/traps, as well as acting as a buffer/controller and secondary combatant. Sandman even gets Sneak Attack (although only +4d6 total) as part of the class features.
Not ignoring your pm Prethen, but I felt it was better to address here in case someone else had similar questions.
The seeker archetype is in Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide (PFRPG).
As has been pointed out for PFS my above suggestion doesn't fly (as idiotic as that is) so I would amend it to either a sage bloodline, or umbral/shadow (I like umbral more myself) seeker and use traits to grab the skills needed. Umbral gets you more of the abilities you want, sage gets you synergy with skills and spell power.
But honestly a Seeker Umbral with a starting charisma of 18 and intelligence of 16 isn't in a bad spot to start with. I don't like really advocating stat dumping but if you do dump strength down to a 7 you can still have a 12 Constitution and 12 Wisdom. With the human skill bonus you'll be looking at 6 skill points per level which will keep stealth, perception, disarm, spellcraft all maxed. I would use the 2 other skill points to alternate between some ranks in swim, climb, acrobatics and a few into the various knowledges. You'll never be a subject matter expert, but you'll know enough to keep from being in over your head. Consider the focused human racial trait to trade your 1 bonus feat for 3 bonus skill focus feats over the course of your career -- if you are looking to get the most out of your skills.
However I totally second the archeologist and sandman archetypes. Archeologist also can mix really well with a two level dip into ninja for the ki points and extra options it brings. Pressure points is one of my favorite ninja tricks and the ninja vanish trick is really nice as well. You'll gain ki simply by having a decent Charisma so that helps too. Lingering performance however is an absolute must for the archeologist. I would consider it a level 1 necessity and I don't say that often.
One of my favorite characters was an archeologist/ninja.
This guide Might help you some.
However if you want something that does everything a rogue does (generally speaking, the stealth, trapfinding, disarming, and intelligence based) I would suggest that a seeker crossblooded umbral sage sorcerer could do the trick straight through 20 levels. Take the umbral 9th level ability and you'll have effective hide in plain sight, seeker gets you the trapfinding, and sage makes you an intelligence based caster.
Abraham, I was looking at your suggestion, and I must say it does end up quite impressive, in terms of what a roguish character can do - adding in the spells, it is really versatile and useful. My doubt remains regarding the combat options, as this character seems more like a REALLY useful tool box, and not so much a combatant (namely he has no sneak attack?)
Then again I admit my ignorance in the area - I have been entertaining the idea of building an Arcane Trickster for AGES, and been roaming around the boards for ideas and suggestions on how best to go about ii, but I am far from mastering the ins and outs.
Again, your suggestion does look amazing, I am just wondering on what would the build rely on for damage? Spells?
At the end (and start) of the day he is not a damage dealer. Like any other primary caster he can deal out some damage with spells but that is not his main thing.
When you play the umbral (or sage... or if you GM agrees with me sage/umbral) seeker you are playing a scout/rogue type that doesn't stab people. You are a caster and you'll need to think like a caster.
On the one hand you can play the burglar with a heart of gold and go with non-lethal options because of this.
But if you are in a party that is mistakenly of the belief that sneak attack is the uber damage dealer then they will need to look at different damage options.
Basically you are the D&D equivalent to military intelligence: You seek out, find and know your enemy and then arrange the situation to your allies' benefit. You aren't the kill switch, you just set your team up to maximize their output.
Where a typically adventuring team might have the rogue scout and know the goblins are in the room, you would scout past them, see the back up and alarms and traps, then reset them as to prevent the alarms and have the goblins set off the traps when they try to retreat, if not blocking the door all together with a lock. Then you blind the goblins with a pyrotechnics spell before your team goes in. By doing this you reduce casualties, and damage the incoming reinforcements before they even get to the fight maximizing enemy confusion and minimizing your losses, reducing a 3~5 spell combat to a 1 spell mop up for your friends.
If the rogue is the martial specialist -- using martial strikes surgically to supplement skills, then the umbral seeker is the magical specialist -- using magic to supplement skills and assist your party in going about things in unorthodox ways.
i don´t know why everytime someone whant a advice to play a rogue people come to advice change rogue for other classes. Rogue is not better or worse tha any other classe, it´s all people opinions basead on your ows games.
For your combo rogue/wizard i suggest rogue3/wizard3(foreight focused school) and arcane trickest 10..than more 4 level on wizard. Initial level s will be pretty dificult beacause of the multiclass with two non combatent classes but beyond level 8 you will enjoy a easy play.
I'm moderately interested in sneak attack but I think I'm scared straight with the realization of responses here that the rogue/wizard can get in some serious danger getting into melee in later levels.
The biggest thing for the rogue is the ability to scout ahead for traps and disabling them. Spells get used up too quickly and there are many areas and different times to check for traps.
Also, the rogue has some cool opportunities to gain various feats to improve on their defenses and combat skills.
If he's going to scout ahead, he should be able to defend himself if he runs into trouble, that's why I'd be concerned to only "dip" into Rogue for 1 level.
One really good possibility which I would absolutely take advantage of is giving him a bow and the elven curved blade (with Weapon Finesse). The real question is, how many levels of Rogue should I give him. I sort of like odd levels since it will give him more backstab dice. BUT, of course, that takes away from spell power. Decisions....decisions.
So enter the arcane trickster prestige class as soon as you can to advance spell levels and sneak attack.
Unlike a lot of suggestions you are getting, Arcane Trickster does not really have a whole different schtick of it's own. You will still feel like the rogue/wizard you envisioned.
Yeah, agree with Leonardo.
i don´t know why everytime someone whant a advice to play a rogue people come to advice change rogue for other classes.
Its almost like they asked for that...
is there a non-Core class that does this already for me wrapped in a single class that I haven't found yet?
Rogue is not better or worse tha any other classe, it´s all people opinions basead on your ows games.
The classes are far from perfectly balanced. Its not just personal opinion. Some classes really are better than others when doing X job.
That is true in this case the OP did ask for other options, but later in the thread he has been saying, hey even if it's not the best I really think I want to play a straight wizard/rogue.