Goblin Squad Member
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@Bludd, I'd say that's it's business model -> game design to be precise.
I think if you want a successful (measured in money) mmorpg then you create something that is not found elsewhere and which people value (measured in enjoyment and range of experiences).
The "Domination" pillar is the world atmosphere that is dynamic and volatile and changes the the game world.
The "Development" I believe derives it's meaning from that. But it will be the Development that is what people will value the most however. The War feeds that sense of value and achievement and commitment and possession and so on. That's how I see it. You can't bring down something that does not exist or take pride in burning down a solitary shack as opposed to a whole Nation scorched back into the ground!
Once you have these things then there's space for the minnows to enjoy a dynamic world underneath these 'Game of Thrones' such as "Adventure" and "Exploration" and "RP". I believe Alignment and Reputation are the possible tools for Promoting "Development" foremost.
@Nihimon: I expect nothing less than the ""Iron Throne"" for myself. Nothing less will do. ;)
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Pulling things back on track: What level of character customization would people prefer over "Sitting in chairs", as compared to additional clothing models, as compared to not having character models clip themselves or the objects they interact with?
I picked those particular examples because their complexity combines multiplicitively: Adding a new piece of clothing or animation or character model must be checked in every combination to avoid clipping. If you want cloaks and want to sit in chairs and want variable height, are you willing to accept that sometimes when a short person sits in a chair, their cloak will pass through the chair in a manner that is physically impossible, or will that "totally break your immersion"?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ok, I'm still trying to answer the challenge; the gauntlet has been thrown down onto the ground (or slapped in our collective faces!) by Ryan: :D
How about...
Bards. They are theatrical skillful people from the little I know. Why don't they get emotes and animations that are skill-based and have effects?
So you're skill-training a lot of non-combat and combat stuff and getting the tools to RP that you desire if you really desire them?
Would that work?
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Goblin Squad Member
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What Ryan is saying is that he is selling us a Maserati, but it doesn't have tires. And without actually seeing the car, we are to trust that it is a Maserati and not in fact a Ford Pinto (with no tires).
To say his position is one from lack of understanding or disbelief, if true, is quite concerning as well. That would tell me that he is out of touch of what your average MMO player expects.
Role Playing is a tempering tool, and it will naturally move players to behaviors that are consistent with the Pathfinder franchise. Having the simplest emotes and environmental interactions are enhancers to that.
No one is asking for or expecting the choice to be made between "Sitting in a Chair" and "Formation Combat". We would expect to be able to at least /sit, and we will hope for the chairs later.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Bringslite,
I take so long to post, that you posted before I was finished, so I'm editing this to include your point. It sounds like your conclusion is the same as my saying that we should be happy "imagining" with what they're already coding in the game (which in Ryan's mind is better than our marginal utilities). If that's what Ryan is saying, I'm fine with that. I'm just looking for a straight answer.
]
My personal conclusion is that GW is on a tight schedule with a limited budget and therefor a limited staff for coding. Despite that, they have already promised/hinted at features that are not available in any MMO out there or that are better modifications of those that already exist. That they are going to be hard pressed to even deliver a basic game and that we should probably get used to the idea that EE will be Spartan compared to where they want to take it.
As for sitting in chairs, which seems to be the fixation but is really just a case example of many desired features, I personally feel like it will just be plain silly to go to an Inn to rest/eat/revive and not sit to do so. It will break my immersion.
I seriously do not blame you for seeking clarification of Ryan's position. He is by nature here cryptic, vague, and non specific leaving room for all kinds of interpretation.
Anyone else that argues their position in a hostile manner (i.e. the content of their posts) really isn't worth the effort of response, unless they can learn from it. It is why I am trying to train myself not to reciprocate or continue such things.
Yet, we have received a clear (fairly) statement that we should consider carefully WHAT features will be most important to us in crowdforging.
I am all for all of the things that will make the world more personal and playable and "seem" real. If I had to choose something over "chair sitting" it would be permanent player created texts. I would likely create few, but would like to see players be able to put lasting things into the "world", not to mention all of the RP that could be generated with "messages".
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I'll preface this with what was my initial intent and what I felt were the intent of the thread. I felt they were the same which was what I would have liked to see in the game eventually.
If we are talking about what we could possibly see in EE, which seems the frame of reference others were in then yes very little of what I mentioned earlier would be essential.
Then the list of things would be those bare things many of us likely saw in MUDs.
-Customized text only emotes.
-A page on our "character sheet" that others can see with customizable text. A history and description page, if you will. It has non-RP use in that folks can recruit for their organizations and whatever else their imagination allows. This wasn't on my initial list I don't believe and it should have been.
I could live with only the first honestly as you're right, my imagination can supply everything else.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My personal conclusion is that GW is on a tight schedule with a limited budget and therefor a limited staff for coding.
Project management is a given and expected.
Eliminating from the project scope everything that said 'RPG done right' ignores a major portion of the expressed use cases whether the project manager understands those use cases or not.
If I am building a contact database application and the scope of my project includes street addresses, but street addresses require more than 32 bytes in the field, I don't expect it will be well received to simply eliminate street addresses from the project scope.
My impression is that the design has moved from Online RPG with a strong and careful focus on PvP and an EVE-like economy, to a reskinning of Eve.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My personal conclusion is that GW is on a tight schedule with a limited budget and therefor a limited staff for coding.Project management is a given and expected.
Eliminating from the project scope everything that said 'RPG done right' ignores a major portion of the expressed use cases whether the project manager understands those use cases or not.
If I am building a contact database application and the scope of my project includes street addresses, but street addresses require more than 32 bytes in the field, I don't expect it will be well received to simply eliminate street addresses from the project scope.
My impression is that the design has moved from Online RPG with a strong and careful focus on PvP and an EVE-like economy, to a reskinning of Eve.
It will probably not be well received by anyone that sees their desired features by passed whether temporarily or permanently. I can well support that perhaps the project could be redesigned with a little less of "this' and a little more of "that", if it is not too far along.
All That I can do is hope that you are wrong about the EVE part, but it also seems to me that more and more is being revealed leading to indications of just that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My personal conclusion is that GW is on a tight schedule with a limited budget and therefor a limited staff for coding.Project management is a given and expected.
Eliminating from the project scope everything that said 'RPG done right' ignores a major portion of the expressed use cases whether the project manager understands those use cases or not.
If I am building a contact database application and the scope of my project includes street addresses, but street addresses require more than 32 bytes in the field, I don't expect it will be well received to simply eliminate street addresses from the project scope.
My impression is that the design has moved from Online RPG with a strong and careful focus on PvP and an EVE-like economy, to a reskinning of Eve.
It will probably not be well received by anyone that sees their desired features by passed whether temporarily or permanently. I can well support that perhaps the project could be redesigned with a little less of "this' and a little more of "that", if it is not too far along.
All That I can do is hope that you are wrong about the EVE part, but it also seems to me that more and more is being revealed leading to indications of just that.
I have never had an issue with PFO being "Eve with Swords", but the one element I hoped they would do well is the Role Playing part. That is the one area that is sorely lacking in Eve, and it is because it is harder to identify with a ship than it us with an avatar.
However in EvE we can write long bios for our characters, and descriptions of our corporations. We can write memos and save them, discard them, send them or modify them.
What I'm asking / hoping for here is:
Emotes ( they can be simple and few to begin with)
Viewable Character Bios
Interaction with environment (this can wait)
Social Clothing ( this too can wait)
The first two I would consider to be a part of the MVP prior to OE.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Being: I'm in agreement with Ryan, in fact eerily so. I've tended to think MMORPGs are kinda not very good for RP tbh. But I have always marvelled at the skill of the players who do RP in MMOPRGs and really appreciated their company. I started off my WAR a/c on an RP server. It sadly was I think one of the first to be merged.
To paraphrase perhaps what Ryan is asking us and I might be wrong here:
1. Think of RP-focused features that expand on other features ie have repercussions that feed other systems?
2. Think of RP-focused features that are cost-effective to include but highly impressive to have!
3. Think beyond what we have to make do with in other mmorpgs for RP-features?
=> Make a strong Crowdforging case for it/them.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bludd, I'd say that's it's business model -> game design to be precise.
I think if you want a successful (measured in money) mmorpg then you create something that is not found elsewhere and which people value (measured in enjoyment and range of experiences).
The "Domination" pillar is the world atmosphere that is dynamic and volatile and changes the the game world.
Hey, if all we are supposed to focus on is the Domination Pillar, than I can oblige. I was hoping to have an RP reason for the killing, but if that is unnecessary for GW, I can deal with that.
Murder War Simulator mode ready, willing and able. I'll contemplate the moral consequences of my actions, when I get a chance to sit down and think about them. ;)
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Bludd, I'd say that's it's business model -> game design to be precise.
I think if you want a successful (measured in money) mmorpg then you create something that is not found elsewhere and which people value (measured in enjoyment and range of experiences).
The "Domination" pillar is the world atmosphere that is dynamic and volatile and changes the the game world.
Hey, if all I am supposed to focus on is the Domination Pillar, than I can oblige. I was hoping to have an RP reason for the killing, but if that is unnecessary for GW, I can deal with that.
MurderWar Simulator mode ready, willing and able. I'll contemplate the moral consequences of my actions, when I get a chance to sit down and think about them. ;)
I know we can count on you on that front! Talk about giving a dog a bone!
But that pillar is going to worked into the game and be the gateway to OE when it's ready, so it's evidently core to building the backbone for everything else to develop off (and make GW piles of mullah).
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Ryan, the reason MMO roleplayers would want ordinary interactions is because not everyone wants to be a superhero 100% of the time. If every roleplayer tries to play a "Drizzt" super special snowflake who's constantly doing heroic things, the world is much more flat and uninteresting because every personality is a predictable good guy or bad guy. What makes it more immersive and adds more depth is playing a person who acts like a person, and who interacts with other people. Roleplayers like to think, and playing a personality that is more than "I fight evil because I'm the good guy" or even "I get power because I like power" appeals to many people. Personally, I hope to get in this game and put the majority of my profits from whatever ventures I participate in towards public works, charities, and community projects, if for no other reason than because it's fun to challenge assumptions about what makes a game fun for a merchant. (note: this isn't the case with everyone who roleplays in an MMO, but I feel a lot of roleplayers could agree to something to the effect of "ordinary actions are what make humans human")
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Goblin Squad Member
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I will have to say that I agree with Ryan on his posts for this subject.
Emotes and sitting in chairs is an annoyingly boring waste of time. This is for themepark games that give you some garbage to play around with but does nothing to make the game fun.
A BIO page? Absolutely, there is no reason not to have it, simple text page on the character sheet. These can be pretty amusing to read.
Roleplaying is on a personal scale, not a game mechanic. If you want the roleplaying that you have in PnP then that is on you to do. We really cannot expect GW to put a ton of time in this.
We will have to use our own imaginations to have a real RP experience. Past that we have the vast wealth of text from the PnP game to work off of. Use it and build on it, bet we find our own RP book come out in a couple years.
Factions can be roleplayed... but that is about on the same level as Emotes. You will work with NPC's that can give you missions and other objectives, but its all static. Maybe you can have some choices of things to do, but its the same thing the next guy will have access to.
Im not sure really how much RP can be put into a video game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Little if any of it is expected in the MVP. It is the elimination of it ever happening that irks.
I do not care to play Call of Duty or Planetside 2. Running out, taking a shot, dying, and running back to die over and over is not entertainment. It isn't imaginative. It isn't innovative.
It isn't a game concept worthy of development.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well this got interesting. In light of this thread I think two things we should be concentrating on are chat bubbles and visible bios. Low resource items that we can get a lot of use out of.
After that, I'd say we rally around around our useful taverns.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Little if any of it is expected in the MVP. It is the elimination of it ever happening that irks.
I do not care to play Call of Duty or Planetside 2. Running out, taking a shot, dying, and running back to die over and over is not entertainment. It isn't imaginative. It isn't innovative.
It isn't a game concept worthy of development.
I think we are just being aggressively steered away from emotes.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...And while I believe chair sitting would be more favorable to my gameplay than darkland adventures or kenku characters (though less important than adding the additional core races)...
That makes two of us. Though sitting around a bonfire would rank much higher than in a chair for me.
Ryan etc:
The thing about sitting is versimillitude and being reminded of limitations. Chairs in the inns will constantly remind me of something obvious I cannot do. On the annoyance scale it is almost up with gentle slopes being impassable because the steepness hit the magic number.
The sandbox promise "you can do anything!" then becomes "...except a bunch of obvious things, infact you can only do the things the devs want you to".
A possible workaround might actually be not to put chairs in inns at all, but let us hang in bars instead of sitting in chairs. Having all those chairs for not sitting in is the annoying bit.
The thing about writing is all about putting your persistent mark on the world. Not everyone expects to build a settlement or be infamous on the server, but many want to contribute to the story of PFO and put their persistent mark on -something-. Doing that on blogs and forums isn't quite the same.
Social/custom clothing, biographies and furnished homes is about feeling unique. Slightly different motivation, and I feel more in line with Ryan's comment about themepark starving us of everything else.
The thing about pointless waste of time is that the whole game could be seen as such (certainly by my mother) - unless there is meaningful interaction. For social players, having a good talk with someone is a lot more memorable and meaningful than killing or being killed. In every MMO i've played, the mechanics and setting is what gets me in, but the people are what holds me. Although this is not the adrenaline-pumping interaction GW strives for, mechanics that promote social interactions must surely be a good thing for community building?
Also, guard and sentry duty -will- often be boring and tools to help pass the time would be great. (And stealthers would use the emote density as an indication of how distracted the guards are)
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Sitting in a chair and writing notes in a book or scroll seem so .... unimaginative.
I can't say that in close to 30 years of playing roleplaying games I've ever thought "the best part of that session was when I sat in a chair".
If you came to me in 1990 and said "imagine you're playing a shared world game with thousands of other people in a detailed 3D virtual fantasy world - tell me what you would want to be able to do in that world that would be meaningful to you as a way of developing your character" I can guarantee you "sit in a chair" was not going to be on the list.
"So, you're all standing in the tavern, staring straight ahead..."
But, seriously, it's about the world feeling like it's an actual world. I remember playing some text adventure, a looooong time ago ("The Hobbit", I think). "You are in a forest." "Climb tree". "You don't see a tree".
... duh.
Tell me they're too steep, or something. But don't break my immersion (at least, not too much).
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Goblin Squad Member
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As far as coming up with a compelling reason to include emotes or environmental interactions, clearly that would be a waste of time. Ryan has already made up his mind. It would be like trying to extoll the virtues of flying to a garden snail. Even if the snail understands it, the snail still won't see the need for it.
Ryan's counter argument will always be "there is a trade off", and then present a game feature to put up against emotes that would be an unreasonable exchange.
As Ryan wrote, just exercise our imaginations. I wonder if PFO turns into a "murder simulator", will players be told to just imagine it's not?
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Goblin Squad Member
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The thing that helps RP the most for me is the ability to alter the IG world through actions. There are big things like the ability to construct and tear down nations. Then there are small things like building a home and furnishing it to your liking. The more ways there are to interact with players and the world with lasting effect the more support there is for RP.
The few times I've tried to do serious RP in a theme park I've always been frustrated by its static and inconsistent nature.
This is why PFO doesn't really fit my definition of sandbox. I've played themepark games that let you build a house, furnish it with crafted items, hang pictures, move walls, etc, etc..
PFO has none of that. Its only a sandbox for the handful of people controlling each settlement. The other 99% of the players can't build anything other than a temporary harvest operation?
I expect Roleplaying will get the same treatment that PVE has. This is a pvp game, for better or for worse. Not because that's what players want but because it is the cheapest way to make a game and the only way a PFO game even gets made at all.
Personally, I want a $200 million dollar Pathfinder themepark and it would be a lot more popular than what we're getting, however, I've seen Ryan crunch the numbers and I can't argue with his conclusions.
And now I don't even remember if I'm on topic so...
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Goblin Squad Member
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The first born of the Dominance Pillar is "Not Blue Shoot It", just saying.
The first casualties of the Dominance Pillar will be those who least want to be involved in the goal of Dominance.
Crafters = Second Class
RP'ers = Not relevant
We are either getting ready for war or at war. There is only PVP for the sake of PVP. If you are not dominating, you are losing.
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The first born of the Dominance Pillar is "Not Blue Shoot It", just saying.
The first casualties of the Dominance Pillar will be those who least want to be involved in the goal of Dominance.
Crafters = Second Class
RP'ers = Not relevantWe are either getting ready for war or at war. There is only PVP for the sake of PVP. If you are not dominating, you are losing.
The table built with only one leg is not easy to use.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to have emotes and as previously posted the ability to write in books/scrolls to be available for others through a Library (I am T7V afterall) and other means.
But in no way do I expect these things in EE or anytime shortly after OE. I fully expect other classes, races, and other stuff to have priority. As they should.
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Goblin Squad Member
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animated emotes have the issue have having to be compatible with worn equipment across different races so its understandable that these would be limited as GW probably doesnt want clipping during these things.
I agree that having an ACT verb would be nice. At the same time have say /wave where there is no animation but outputs Leperkhaun waves at Target in the text box would also be great.
What I do hope is addons that can do this. I understand that there may be many many different ones that we would need to track, but there may not be a way to do it otherwise.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The table built with only one leg is not easy to use.The first born of the Dominance Pillar is "Not Blue Shoot It", just saying.
The first casualties of the Dominance Pillar will be those who least want to be involved in the goal of Dominance.
Crafters = Second Class
RP'ers = Not relevantWe are either getting ready for war or at war. There is only PVP for the sake of PVP. If you are not dominating, you are losing.
The table built with only one leg is not easy to use.Explain that to Ryan Dancey, he seems to believe otherwise.
I believe this is the part that prompted Decius's reply.
There is only PVP for the sake of PVP.
And I think Ryan already has a pretty good understanding of how that kind of statement on your part brings to mind thoughts of one-legged tables.
I think telling someone that Pathfinder Online is all about PvP is like saying football is all about tackling. It fundamentally misses the point, while being technically logically defensible.
If PvP is the only thing that's important in PFO, then it will fail. If it's the only thing that's important to you, then you will fail.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I agree that having an ACT verb would be nice. At the same time have say /wave where there is no animation but outputs Leperkhaun waves at Target in the text box would also be great.
I would actually prefer there not be any built-in text for the built-in emotes.
What I would really, really like to see is a way to define /commands in a configuration file so I can make "/blah" be the same as "/emote is feeling bored".
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to have emotes and as previously posted the ability to write in books/scrolls to be available for others through a Library and other means.
I'd like to see GW give heavy support to a wiki - with in-game access.
Some part of the wiki could just be short-form help articles, accessible at any point.
The bulk of the wiki would be accessible from library buildings or upgrades. Of course there could be lots of library sections: military science, naturalism, magic and its secrets, etc., and each section would require either a library with that upgrades, or a specific library section could be used to upgrade another facility (like the secrets of magic library upgrade for a wizards tower.)
(The whole library/wiki should be available on-line; having the upgrades to buildings would have mechanical benefits as well)
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think telling someone that Pathfinder Online is all about PvP is like saying football is all about tackling. It fundamentally misses the point, while being technically logically defensible.If PvP is the only thing that's important in PFO, then it will fail. If it's the only thing that's important to you, then you will fail.
Ryan Dancey is the one that said "Crafters are second class citizens". He said that RP is not anything that will garner development time, that RP is up to the imaginations of the players. Ryan has said that PVE content will be miniscule in EE, and in no ways near to what the PVP content is meant to be.
Ryan is suggesting the one-legged table, not me. I'm on the record for hoping there is something close to a 30% PVE, 50% PVP, 20% RP development mix.
I'd like to know where your numbers stack up? Ryan's would be nice as well. Most importantly, where do the Devs see the ratio of development time falling?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Pardon me for failing to read every post in this thread (although I have read Ryan's and the devs).
I have to ask myself "What would be the objective for sitting in a chair?" For me it would be a convenient way to define having a conversation with a limited number of other characters as in the Talking Head Tavern. If I could do that in, say, a private room in an inn, then my objective is met without having to sit.
I have to ask myself "What is my objective in writing a scroll or a message?" If I want to craft a scroll, then I don't need to sit at a table to do that. I probably need to be in a crafting building to do that (preferably my character's own). If I want to communicate to someone, possibly through a charter company postal service, do I need to see myself writing it? I probably don't want others to see me writing it anyway, if it is a secret.
I would much rather see the quiver of arrows on my back (or on the backs of others so I could hopefully identify potential ranged opponents) rather than be able to see myself sit.
Granted I would like to have a fully visualized virtual fantasy world to maximize my immersion. After all I already have that in my head. But for EE I would just be happy if the 4 roles were fully accessorized.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Screw sitting chairs or /tugsbeard. Absolutely, let's think big/think out of our prior experience. Let's throw out ides, not "wouldn't it be cool if [blank] was in game (for me)," but really different stuff than we're used to, that would lets us truly live out our roles.
Bluddwolf, besides robbing and killing merchants, what design feature could be put in that really let you feel like a bandit, truly immersed in your role as a wolf among sheep?
Being, what could they put in that would make players truly feel like Druids or Rangers?
I think the prospect of things like a community finding and raising a gold dragon egg amazing. That would be incredible. And maybe we're not going to to have necromancers who have AI hordes, but what if there was the equivalent? Some ability for an evil community and necromancers to raise a dreadful antipaladin from the grave to serve as a champion? Or maybe for Chaotic Good characters to ally with a mighty Treant?
Remember the pet taming system in UO? Something like that would absolutely whale on chair sitting. Actaully finding and taming your animal companion would be 1000x better than pressing a "summon button" on your hotbar.
Personally, I would like some way for clerics and paladins to bring the glory of their god down upon the undead/evil outsiders. If I could, I dunno, find a gateway and actually be "A Paladin i Hell," then I would truly feel like a servant of the Gods--I'd be roleplaying.
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Goblin Squad Member
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To be clear, I'm suggesting that your requests for chair sitting and scroll writing are likely to be challenged by your peers in the tradeoffs of either/or choices. But you can keep ignoring that if you wish.
Do you mean in the same way that no one wanted class specific pets/companions when the trade off was general mounts and fast travel?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I have to ask myself "What is my objective in writing a scroll or a message?" If I want to craft a scroll, then I don't need to sit at a table to do that. I probably need to be in a crafting building to do that (preferably my character's own). If I want to communicate to someone, possibly through a charter company postal service, do I need to see myself writing it? I probably don't want others to see me writing it anyway, if it is a secret.
That's the point that I keep getting hung up on the need for writing a scrolls or book page. What's the "need" for hard documents in the game? War Decs? Automated. Bills of Sale? Automated. Contracts? Automated. Letters? Chat. Magical Scrolls? Crafted item. Bulletin Board Notices? Maybe automated. Military Orders? Secrets - passed through team speak or secure channels, not in-game.
Screw sitting chairs or /tugsbeard. Absolutely, let's think big/think out of our prior experience. Let's throw out ides, not "wouldn't it be cool if [blank] was in game (for me)," but really different stuff than we're used to, that would lets us truly live out our roles.
Bluddwolf, besides robbing and killing merchants, what design feature could be put in that really let you feel like a bandit, truly immersed in your role as a wolf among sheep?
Being, what could they put in that would make players truly feel like Druids or Rangers?
I think the prospect of things like a community finding and raising a gold dragon egg amazing. That would be incredible. And maybe we're not going to to have necromancers who have AI hordes, but what if there was the equivalent? Some ability for an evil community and necromancers to raise a dreadful antipaladin from the grave to serve as a champion? Or maybe for Chaotic Good characters to ally with a mighty Treant?
Remember the pet taming system in UO? Something like that would absolutely whale on chair sitting. Actaully finding and taming your animal companion would be 1000x better than pressing a "summon button" on your hotbar.
Personally, I would like some way for clerics and paladins to bring the glory of their god down upon the undead/evil outsiders. If I could, I dunno, find a gateway and actually be "A Paladin i Hell," then I would truly feel like a servant of the Gods--I'd be roleplaying.
I think Mbando's setting us on the right track here.