In-Game Supports for Role Playing


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

Yes, I'm aware there will be different races, regional traits, alignment, factions and even settlements may spur on their own cultures that will feed into Role Playing.

What specific details of those listed above, or others not listed would we like to see in game in order to support role playing?

Goblin Squad Member

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The ability to wear green hats is all I will need. That simple act should provide enough dynamic roleplaying to keep me engaged. :)

Goblin Squad Member

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Basic emotes and sitting (preferably also in chairs) would be welcome.

Ability for settlements and guilds to design (or at least select) their own banners and coat of arms.

Goblin Squad Member

A wide array of furnishings we can use, but that should be iterative and beyond Minimum Viable Product. Scrolls we can put text on. System-generated maps to rare persistent containers we can place (after filling them with treasure) that those maps would point to are useful examples that come to mind.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Clearly, there has to be 42 different /dance emote animations. We *need* to be able to do the hustle, robot, and the haka.

Goblin Squad Member

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Yes I believe a variety of emotes, social clothing, custom colors, company symbols, are all significant.

I would like to see the ability to write macros that tie an action to a text bubble as well (like you could in WOW). That is just about the only thing I liked about WoW.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Custom macros for war cries and taunts would be very nice. And I mean taunts in the "Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!" way and not the normal MMO agro magnet way.


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Text for macro's is a nice feature for more than rp, I have seen many raiders use them effectively over the years.

I would like to see company crests being possible whether badges, cloaks,blazons etc. And capturable war banners which can be displayed as trophies

Goblin Squad Member

I would still very much like to see User Objects. I think that's the kind of thing that can unleash the creativity of the community without requiring a lot from the devs.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

The ability to roshambo, in either traditional, rock-paper-scissors-spock-lizard, or South Park rulesets.

Goblin Squad Member

The ability to craft furnishings. Aka Furniture, Paintings, etc. The ability to write Memoirs, Books, and poems and sell them to players to stock their bookshelves. The ability to own a home/real estate within a settlement. Architects to design buildings to create unique a cultural feel that differs settlement to settlement.

Crafters to have the ability to design the look of masterwork items created. The ability to include Heraldry, Logos, etc on items crafted in addition to creating fluff items that enhanced the look of items.

The ability for Organizations, Kingdoms, settlements, etc to give titles that could be displayed next to your name.

The ability to inspect an individual and see a brief Bio or description that the player had set to be viewed.

Just some of the ideas that I have seen implemented over my years of gaming that really helped to maintain the immersion.

Goblin Squad Member

Pax Deacon wrote:
The ability to craft furnishings.

The ability to place furnishings more freely than some games have allowed. I'd like choices of location and detailed precision of placement; I'd never insist on inclusion in MVP, but I hope they'll provide themselves the background infrastructure to give us lots of play-room later on.

Goblin Squad Member

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I would like to see culturally skinned weapons and armor. Example: Swords made with Linnorm cultural skin would look like Norse weapons, and key words would look like Norse runes on them.

Weapon or armor quality tiers could include racial or regional customization and appearance.

Goblin Squad Member

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It has been said above. But I would really like to be able to write personal journals or other types of books. Then be able to give them to others.

Perhaps slip into UNC's base and leave a scroll describing a certain merchant's caravan route and security. Leaving the scroll in Bluddwolf's bed so he can find it.

Let him do my dirty work. :P


In game support for RP'ers? There's probably too much as it is. Game Mechanics > RP-ability anytime you have to make that call. The RP'ers will still RP. Someone mentioned people in WoW doing sex RP's in that erotic RP'ing thread... case in point: RP'ers use their imagination and so they don't really need much support... the less support they have the more they can exercise those imagination muscles (and maybe other muscles too, depending on the type of RP'ing they're doing).

Goblin Squad Member

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Very few games offer enough RP support. Basics like sitting and standing and /me emotes are probably enough for EE. But hopefully OE can bring many suggestions from this thread.

Goblin Squad Member

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I very much doubt PvP enthusiasts would be content with having only their imaginations to off one another, even if it would be better intellectual exercise for them, so I am unclear why RP players should.

This upperclass/lowerclass stratification between PvP and RP players damages the integrity of the community.

Goblin Squad Member

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I agree Being, I actually find that RP is the one aspect of an MMORPG that can stand alone or be mixed in equally well with PvP or PVE.

Contrary to popular belief my company has interests in all three. I'm not saying equal interest, but enough to nit say it is being ignored.


Being wrote:

I very much doubt PvP enthusiasts would be content with having only their imaginations to off one another, even if it would be better intellectual exercise for them, so I am unclear why RP players should.

This upperclass/lowerclass stratification between PvP and RP players damages the integrity of the community.

PvP'ing in vidya games never requires any imagination... real RP'ing is all about imagination.

I also didn't say anything about PvP. You were the first person in this thread to even say the word PvP.

Goblin Squad Member

Imbicatus wrote:
"Your mother was a hamster, and your father smelt of elderberries!"

well, you know.. otherwise he'd never.. I mean, a hamster! I guess I'm just lucky to be me.

Goblin Squad Member

Qallz wrote:
Being wrote:

I very much doubt PvP enthusiasts would be content with having only their imaginations to off one another, even if it would be better intellectual exercise for them, so I am unclear why RP players should.

This upperclass/lowerclass stratification between PvP and RP players damages the integrity of the community.

PvP'ing in vidya games never requires any imagination... real RP'ing is all about imagination.

I also didn't say anything about PvP. You were the first person in this thread to even say the word PvP.

Yes, and your point is???

I was responding to an assertion that RP doesn't need any support, while so far it appears every other extraneous expense is focused on PvP assets.

Goblin Squad Member

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The thing that helps RP the most for me is the ability to alter the IG world through actions. There are big things like the ability to construct and tear down nations. Then there are small things like building a home and furnishing it to your liking. The more ways there are to interact with players and the world with lasting effect the more support there is for RP.

The few times I've tried to do serious RP in a theme park I've always been frustrated by its static and inconsistent nature.

Goblin Squad Member

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Lord of Elder Days wrote:
The thing that helps RP the most for me is the ability to alter the IG world through actions.

I believe this is also Ryan's point, that in a sandbox everything you do is automatically RP.

Goblin Squad Member

So my thought is that is would be beneficial to tell a promising team new to the settlement that in the middle of an escalatory hex a crate was dropped from a runaway wagon, and would they retrieve it for reward X. We would already have set up for that crate filled with valuable goods that will be there when the new team clears the escalatory mobs.

Then we can see whether the persistent inventory is returned, skimmed, or missing and award accordingly.

Such mechanisms would give us the ability to provide missions and discover things about those aspiring to our ranks.

It is RP and isn't all imagination.


Being wrote:
Qallz wrote:
Being wrote:

I very much doubt PvP enthusiasts would be content with having only their imaginations to off one another, even if it would be better intellectual exercise for them, so I am unclear why RP players should.

This upperclass/lowerclass stratification between PvP and RP players damages the integrity of the community.

PvP'ing in vidya games never requires any imagination... real RP'ing is all about imagination.

I also didn't say anything about PvP. You were the first person in this thread to even say the word PvP.

Yes, and your point is???

I was responding to an assertion that RP doesn't need any support, while so far it appears every other extraneous expense is focused on PvP assets.

Well, it's a PvP-focused game. There are RP-focused games for RP'ers, if that's really what you want. You can RP in PFO, but it isn't optimal, for example: I can PvP in WoW, but, WoW isn't really designed for that, it's designed for raiding, so it's reasonable that that's where Blizzard allocates their not-inconsiderable resources.

Goblin Squad Member

It is a PvP-focused design based on an RPG system.

There may be significant differences between a PvP-focused game and a PvP focused game design based on an RPG system. These differences may account in part for the prevalent polarity between dominant perceptions in the community. Possibly among the developers as well, but I haven't adequate insight into GW's mindset to report it.

My impression is that Ryan is more toward your interpretation than mine, but my impressionism has underestimated Mr. Dancy before.

Goblin Squad Member

As others have said, I would hope to see the bare minimums of being able to sit and a /me emote in EE.

Small touches add so much, like adding decorations to buildings or altering their skins to better reflect their community when building the settlement. The ability to hold non-combat items like a book or a pipe (or even smoking it as in LOTRO!). Cosmetic clothing (or just the ability to override certain items by using an "invisible" skin).

I would love to see a "notes" system that could be brought up to allow us to fill in what we know about a character.

There are so many things, but it's the little touches that really bring RP to life.

Goblin Squad Member

Lord of Elder Days wrote:

The thing that helps RP the most for me is the ability to alter the IG world through actions. There are big things like the ability to construct and tear down nations. Then there are small things like building a home and furnishing it to your liking. The more ways there are to interact with players and the world with lasting effect the more support there is for RP.

The few times I've tried to do serious RP in a theme park I've always been frustrated by its static and inconsistent nature.

This. All day long!

Goblin Squad Member

In LotRO I like being able to write a character bio. At the very least it allows me to flesh out my character, for myself. I also like the idea of player characters (really the player, but attributed to a character) being able to write stories, books, a book series, a poem or a book of poetry, a compendium of plants or animals, an encyclopedia of noteworthy personalities, a list of bridges, mountain peaks, dense forests, rivers and streams, maps of cities, areas, regions or a map of the entirety of the River Kingdoms (known at that time). Spies could write cryptic messages, creative players could write plays, someone could write a treatise on mass warfare.

Many emotes, some given, some learned, some found as rare loot (secret handshakes, birdcalls captured from a bandit gang, passwords recovered from a cult member) that could lead to other adventures.

There could be ceremonies built into the game where official functions could take place such as formal dinners for diplomatic missions, meetings in a dark alley, a military strategy meeting where players (or nearby NPCs) could more icons around on a sand table or a tactical map. Players should be able to craft lots, lots and more lots of zero armor clothing and costumes, banners, flags, drapes, or any other sewn or stitched item(s) if that have the appropriate crafting skill.

And none of the above need be in the MVP. It can all come later. But should be included at some future point in time.

Goblin Squad Member

For the bare minimum MVP, it would really help to have mechanics in place for CCs. If possible, some basic emotes and perhaps CC authorized titles to name tags.

That could get the RP community enough to get started and allow people to differentiate themselves.

Some or all of that may already be in the plans, but I am trying to reel back my assumptions about anything now. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

- Crests, sigils, Flags for player groups (Those Japanese Shogunate wars are obsessed with flags everywhere (it looks nice too!).

- Musical instruments

- Food and beer in pubs/inns

- languages: Perhaps some clever way of simulating barriers to communication between players could be cooked up and served as part of the tree of skill-training? I can't think of an implementation atm, but I feel this would be important for PFO somehow.

- Alignment reactions from mobs/npcs if applicable in EE.

- If Ryan gets some system similar to the tomb of knowledge that writes itself key moments and players can fill in the spaces and "connect the dots" (memory hooks) and share these personal adventure stories/biographies then you have some story-making material.. ahem... in the making.


Being wrote:

It is a PvP-focused design based on an RPG system.

There may be significant differences between a PvP-focused game and a PvP focused game design based on an RPG system. These differences may account in part for the prevalent polarity between dominant perceptions in the community. Possibly among the developers as well, but I haven't adequate insight into GW's mindset to report it.

My impression is that Ryan is more toward your interpretation than mine, but my impressionism has underestimated Mr. Dancy before.

No. Just because it's based on a TT system doesn't mean the game has to be more "RP-like". This is the same sense of Entitlement that got ESO destroyed long before it hit the shelves. PFO is not PF TT. They can make the online version into whatever they want... they could've made it into an RTS if they wanted to, and then who would complain about their not being enough Roleplaying then?

Goblin Squad Member

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The way to add RP is to emphasise the simulation aspects of the game world. Eg the economy is (in eve) a huge simulation probably up there with MUDs for interactivity and emergence of systems.

Trying to provide systems that fuel people's attitudes to the PFO world is key I'd say as the denizens and their RELATIONSHIPS are the imaginative dynamic with this setting: More than just kill red or blue I hope.

Still thinking how you could make many many languages work.

Goblin Squad Member

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Qallz wrote:
No. Just because it's based on a TT system doesn't mean the game has to be more "RP-like". This is the same sense of Entitlement that got ESO destroyed long before it hit the shelves. PFO is not PF TT. They can make the online version into whatever they want... they could've made it into an RTS if they wanted to, and then who would complain about their not being enough Roleplaying then?

You are misrepresenting my case and slapping inappropriate labels like 'entitlement' on it instead of arguing any merits of your point. I'm not urging the game to be more RP-like at all, I am saying there should more to the game than your bare gladiatorial arena. That isn't entitlement. Watching you arm-wrestle your mini-me will be a complete waste of my time and a good chunk of money.


More to the game? What game? The game isn't out yet, and it has no predecessor. PF TT doesn't count because it's a TT game and the possible translations are too vast for any of us to say "it should be like this, or it should be like that".

Anytime you ask it to be more like the TT game, that's entitlement. PFO is the first of its kind, and it takes place in Golarion, has the same basic classes (though they're skill-based), same monsters, etc. That's the Pathfinder part. The game mechanics themselves can be up to 100% different, and a large-scale gladiatorial arena actually describes the world they're creating much better than a large-scale RP'ing fest.

They'll be very few dungeons for a while, and the core of the game is the large-scale settlement warfare, and players being the content for each other. In a true RPG, NPC's are the vast majority of the content.

Goblin Squad Member

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It would be a nice touch, and not to mechanically challenging, to have regional naming convention suggestions (like LotRo has).

During character creation you would see a list of suggested names of that cultural region (prefix + name + suffix).

Character naming does play a major role in role playing, it is often the first thing players notice.

Goblin Squad Member

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Qallz wrote:


Anytime you ask it to be more like the TT game, that's entitlement.

Absolutely not. Pathfinder is a brand that they are using to sell us the game so yes we have every right to expect some things from the table top. If they wanted a clean slate, they shouldn't have chosen an established brand.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

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avari3 wrote:
Qallz wrote:


Anytime you ask it to be more like the TT game, that's entitlement.

Absolutely not. Pathfinder is a brand that they are using to sell us the game so yes we have every right to expect some things from the table top. If they wanted a clean slate, they shouldn't have chosen an established brand.

This. Having a Pathfinder game without roleplaying is like having a Harley-Davidson game without motorcycles.

Goblin Squad Member

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Qallz wrote:
Anytime you ask it to be more like the TT game, that's entitlement.

You have clearly no conception of TT. Nothing is coded into TT whatsoever. You are constructing complete fictions to argue against, straw men to joust against.

The question is what in-game should support RP, not how you disrespect those who may enjoy RP or TT.


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avari3 wrote:
Qallz wrote:


Anytime you ask it to be more like the TT game, that's entitlement.

Absolutely not. Pathfinder is a brand that they are using to sell us the game so yes we have every right to expect some things from the table top. If they wanted a clean slate, they shouldn't have chosen an established brand.

My point is this: Pathfinder is a world, a fandom... NOT a set of rules. You are getting Pathfinder... you're getting the world, the races, the classes (sort of), the monsters, the same general "feel"... THAT stuff is Pathfinder.

All the game mechanics, or how much RP'ing there is or isn't, is TT stuff. Because this is basically the first real venture outside the TT, all people have to go on is the TT, so they're having a hard time separating what's "Pathfinder" (The Fandom), from "Pathfinder the Table Top game".

I know you'll probably say "But Pathfinder the TT IS PATHFINDER, IT'S ALL THERE IS OF PATHFINDER". And I would say: No, that's just all there is so far, because they've yet to really branch out.

You're getting the world of Golarion... the rules, the mechanics, the game's focus (Raiding, PvP, RP'ing, etc)... all that isn't "Pathfinder". The world is Pathfinder... the rest is Pathfinder Table Top.

Imbicatus wrote:
This. Having a Pathfinder game without roleplaying is like having a Harley-Davidson game without motorcycles.

This analogy is quite a stretch, but we have is more like having a Harley Davidson game WITH motorcycles, but saying "I don't want a racing game, or I don't want a Road Rash type game, because most people use Harley's for longer trips, as they're cruiser bikes". I just want to be able to cruise around for really long distances, like I do in real life.

Goblin Squad Member

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I have to agree with the spirit of what Qallz is saying here. I will be perfectly content if the developers throw all of the crunch out. It helps that I don't particularly like the PF crunch, but even if I did, it isn't developed for a MMORPG setting. None of it is usable as anything but inspirational source material.

The fluff is what is important. That is what they need to get down. And from what I have read of the developers, they are more than willing to work on that.

Goblin Squad Member

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Qallz wrote:


You're getting the world of Golarion...

This is basically a Roleplay-focused part. You ask what if the game was an RTS? You would probably be playing the role of a commander and directing troops. The campaign story, assuming it had one, would be the roleplay portion. Your role is simply more strictly defined and gives you less room to act outside of pre-planned script.

Everything that is Golarion is the part that supports the roleplay. Otherwise you could go with a simple generic fantasy setting and still get a good number of the races and abilities and classes.

Using an established brand is going to cause a lot of expectation about a product. Going from a TT game to a video game is a tighter bond than going from a movie or novel world setting to a video game which in turn is a tighter bond than going from the aforementioned Harley-Davison brand to a video game. The point of IP is to leverage an existing consumer-base. If you do not service that consumer base properly, then you have wasted a lot of money spent and enforced yourself into contractual obligations and restrictions on licensing the IP. Can it be done? Sure. But is it a wise move?


Lifedragn wrote:
Qallz wrote:


You're getting the world of Golarion...

This is basically a Roleplay-focused part. You ask what if the game was an RTS? You would probably be playing the role of a commander and directing troops. The campaign story, assuming it had one, would be the roleplay portion. Your role is simply more strictly defined and gives you less room to act outside of pre-planned script.

Everything that is Golarion is the part that supports the roleplay. Otherwise you could go with a simple generic fantasy setting and still get a good number of the races and abilities and classes.

Using an established brand is going to cause a lot of expectation about a product. Going from a TT game to a video game is a tighter bond than going from a movie or novel world setting to a video game which in turn is a tighter bond than going from the aforementioned Harley-Davison brand to a video game. The point of IP is to leverage an existing consumer-base. If you do not service that consumer base properly, then you have wasted a lot of money spent and enforced yourself into contractual obligations and restrictions on licensing the IP. Can it be done? Sure. But is it a wise move?

That's exactly what we're talking about here when we say Entitlement. If this were a brand new fandom, then yes, they'd have to get all their customers from scratch, and they'll still have to get many of them from scratch, BUT, they can leverage the customer-base without ruining the game (by making stupid decisions just to confrom to the Table Top).

They do it simply by exposing their customer-base to it, and the fact that many people who play their game are also in the same demographic as the people who play MMOPRG's. They'll get free exposure that way sure, but that doesn't mean they have to be loyal to the TT in any way other than the setting.

And no, Golarion in the TT setting is meant to support roleplaying. Golarion itself is just a fantasy world which happened to be created for Pathfinder.

Goblin Squad Member

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So your argument is that a fantasy world created for a game centered around roleplaying was not created to facilitate roleplaying?

If all you are doing is building characters and fighting things using a ruleset, you do not need a world setting to do that in on the tabletop. And there would be no reason to bind yourself to a pre-defined setting if you were not wanting to bring in the fans of that tabletop.

Additionally, nobody here is saying that they have to add any of the requests here. It is a bit disingenuous for you to label expressed desires as senses of entitlement. You are also confusing stated business reasons for why such desires should be considered seriously again as senses of entitlement.


Lifedragn wrote:
So your argument is that a fantasy world created for a game centered around roleplaying was not created to facilitate roleplaying?

It's not an argument it's a Fact.

Go read the entire Goblinworks blog and tell me how much you find on Roleplaying.

Goblin Squad Member

I find it useful to think of it within a structure:

PnP: Creative Imagination - subjectively the person living the experience of their character.
MUDs: Creative Simulation - objectively changing the system and hence your character being defined by that result.
MMORPGs: In one of Ryan's posts he points out in Themeparks you're only left with "Theatrics", because of a Hard Rules limiting your effect on the "world" or system.

So, if PFO is successful you'll be affecting the world and your theatrics being both additional (personality as it were) and possibly integral (how others react to you) to your character and the world? It can't be as powerful as PnP which reminds me of some of things I've read or heard about from tribal shamans directing psychedelic trips of their tribal members (or some research on LSD in the 60's by accident!).

Now if our characters have the power to send other characters on a "trip"/spirit world journey... there's a thought! Anyway maybe all the above is completely made up on the spot, but it's easy to talk past each other is what I'm really saying. ;)

Goblin Squad Member

If you log into a MMO and begin playing a toon with defined stats and certain abilities, you are already Role Playing. Whether you want to admit it or not.

It may or may not be complex Role Playing, but you are assuming the role of an inhabitant of that persistent environment, in any case.

CEO, Goblinworks

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I wish I understood better the value proposition of things like books you can write in or chairs you can sit in from a "roleplaying perspective".

I think that perhaps my definition of "roleplaying" is not in the same venn diagram as those other things.

Goblin Squad Member

Perhaps I can illustrate the value through a couple of examples. Let's say your settlement is having a council meeting would it not add to they story telling atmosphere if the council members could actually take their seats around the table? Heck what good is being the over tyrant of the River Kingdoms if you can't even lounge on your own throne? I can see bards and loremasters filling tomes with useful information and entertaining tales that players try to collect.

Role players don't just enjoy the hack and slash aspects of the game world. Many times they also enjoy the seemingly mundane details of the world too.

There also seem to be a few different definitions of role play floating around. For many leveling up a character and gaining better equipment is RP. For others it is more of a theatrical production. You speak as if you were your character and you react to the game world as if it were real. I honesty have much more fun with the latter aprouch.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ryan Dancey wrote:
I wish I understood better the value proposition of things like books you can write in or chairs you can sit in from a "roleplaying perspective".

That would depend upon what you value. Role-players want their world to be more than a limited number of interactive buttons and toggles utilized strictly for numerical gain of one form or another. We want the world, as much as possible, to feel real - even down to something as simple as sitting in a chair. It's often about the ability to manipulate your surroundings such that those surroundings don't feel like static props and backdrops on someone else's stage. Would you rather have your character walk into a two dimensional representation of a tavern - flat and noninteractive - or a fully realized tavern, complete with usable chairs so you can sit with friends and feel at home? Would you rather have a painting of a bookcase, or one stocked with real books filled with player writing - the history of your CC, settlement policies, secret messages, poetry, clues to a player designed quest, etc.

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