| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The problem calling them Hexes is that we have Hexes already, they're in the Witch class. And these are not those.
You might also want to adjust the name or the description of the Bones spirit hex "Fearful Gaze", since the description reads "With a single shout...".
Fearful Voice? if it stays gaze, is it a gaze attack?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"Hex" is just an archaic word for a witch or an act of witchery. The German word for witch is hex.
LazarX what I mean by these not being those, is mechanically. Very few of the Shaman's hexes seem to be Witch hexes, they're much more in line or replicating Oracle revelations which is my point. I'd rather see them have Witch hexes and be able to grab more with Extra Hex as opposed to being tied to the limited selection they have based on their bound Spirit.
Maybe it's for in-built Extra Hex compatibility.
You mean the oracle?Given that shamans have a relationship with a spirit force, rather than just being really resolute, I could see making them Charisma casters.A Charisma-based divine caster would be pretty unique.
Whoops, I meant a Charisma-based prepared caster. Guess I was tired.
The only hiccup with that is it says you have to choose your hexes from your spirits. Which would be awesome with more than one spirit, but I don't think you could use extra hex to pick a hex from a wandering spirit because you won't always have that spirit. That's why I think it would work better calling those Revelations and giving them 5 actual Witch hexes from the witch list over their 20 levels. That way you can definitely expand that if you want to.
I think I might have just been confused on what the core concept of this class is. My interpretation from the little blurbs we had early on was it was going to be a Witch/Oracle mash up power wise, as opposed to a Witch flavor mashed up with Oracle mechanics, because that's kinda how it feels to me.
I would have preferred the druid spell list to the cleric, but I love the class regardless.
Finally, the use of a Charisma is fully intentional for this class, so it mimics the cleric's requirement for Charisma to power channel energy.
I actually came into the playtest fully expecting both the Arcanist and Shaman to use dual-casting stats, being a blend a two different casters. This is from some of the later 3.5 casters and other powerful full casters like SGGs Magister. Arcanist however only uses Int for its casting and abilities (superseding the bloodline Cha usage even), Blood Focus usage being based on level.
However, I also expected the Shaman to have 1/2 BAB, d6 HD, and be wearing light or no armor (making it far less melee-viable). I also didn't expect it to use the cleric/oracle spell list (rather, the witch or druid lists).
I feel like modelling the Shaman off of the cleric is a mistake, as that is not one of its base classes. I can understand justifying SOME of the abilities to be based off charisma, but not as many as currently are. If we continue to model the shaman after the cleric, domain ability usage is tied directly to either a clerics level or wisdom (pretty sure there aren't any that use Cha). When a cleric chooses to ignore Cha, it's only Channel Energy she loses out on. If a shaman chooses to ignore Cha for whatever reason (low point buy, battle caster build, crappy rolls), she loses out on a whole slough of abilities, not just healing (but including it as well).
Including a Battle Spirit, as well as the armour, HD, and BAB the class has, is a clear indicator that the class should be melee viable. The case I made earlier about this, in comparing it to the cleric, is that it requires the extra ability to maintain its class abilities beyond what a cleric requires. The oracle gets away with needing less ability scores. Heck even the *witch* requires less ability scores to get into melee (hair, using Int).
If it came down to:
a) De-power some of the class abilities in order to base them off Wis instead of Cha, in order to alleviate MAD without mucking up too much of the power of the class
OR
b) Leave it the same and have some builds struggle (good Lore Shamans, battle shamans, poor ability score shamans)
I would choose A in a heartbeat. Interested to hear what others would choose, though.
The only hiccup with that is it says you have to choose your hexes from your spirits. Which would be awesome with more than one spirit, but I don't think you could use extra hex to pick a hex from a wandering spirit because you won't always have that spirit. That's why I think it would work better calling those Revelations and giving them 5 actual Witch hexes from the witch list over their 20 levels. That way you can definitely expand that if you want to.
I think I might have just been confused on what the core concept of this class is. My interpretation from the little blurbs we had early on was it was going to be a Witch/Oracle mash up power wise, as opposed to a Witch flavor mashed up with Oracle mechanics, because that's kinda how it feels to me.
By strict RAW, you can take Extra Hex, even for your Wandering Spirits. Any ability/bonus that lasts longer than 24 hours allows you to qualify for feats, etc (iirc).
But I'm also almost entirely certain they don't want you to gain access to extra Shaman Hexes. I feel like you acquire them at a quick enough rate (interspersed with Spirit Abilities).
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Overall, I think the shaman class is fairly well done. I think the wandering spirit adds fantastic flavor change potential for a character.
The following are changes I think would improve upon the flavor.
- Use the druid spell list instead of the cleric spell list. This adds a nature/elemental "shaman" theme instead of the deity themed cleric/oracle list. This would add a second full caster using the druid list instead of a third full caster class using the cleric list. This would be a huge step towards feeling like a whole new class rather than a re-mash of the oracle.
- The witch is under represented. There are currently two spirits allowed: permanent and wandering. Allow the shaman to pick one spirit from the current oracle themed spirits and the second spirit from a new witch patron theme spirit. Allow the shaman to pick which (oracle themed or witch themed) spirit is the permanent and which is the wandering spirit.
- Add more witch-flavored hexes through the various witch patron themed spirits.
- The "hex" ability feels 90% "revelation". Calling the power "hex" feels contrived to force a witch-like feel.
- Add in the ability to fore go "hex" and allow it to instead be placed into familiar amping abilities.
An example list of some of those potential abilities:
- Tough Familiar - the familiar has the same hitpoints as its master
- Recall Commune - the master can commune with the familiar for one minute to recall 1 previously cast spell (once per day per 5 levels)
- Improved Familiar - just as the Improved Familiar feat
- Companion Familiar - familiar acts like an animal companion (requires Improved Familiar)
etc.- Option the "familiar" to be a "fetish" (some item to commune thru with the ability of an arcane bond) or a "totem" (summonable immobile item with no powers that simply allow the shaman to do those class related things)
This is almost exactly what I was going to say. I like the Shaman, but would like to see it have more Witch. Either add some select Witch Hexes to the ones that can be chosen, and/or add some Patron flavored Spirits. I also *strongly* agree the Shaman needs the Druid spell list.
I would have preferred the druid spell list to the cleric, but I love the class regardless.This is definitely the single biggest change I would make. This would give a second full caster using the druid list instead of a third full caster using the cleric list.
When thinking of your spells as things granted to you by your connection to spirits, I feel that the cleric spell list would be a lot better suited. The druid list would help with the nature themes, but there are a lot more things that the spirits seem like they should be able to do that the druid spell list can't.
Granted, I'm not sure how spirits cause wall of stones to appear, but given that they aren't going to make new spell lists so they can fit more classes in, whatcha gonna do?
Granted, I'm not sure how spirits cause wall of stones to appear, but given that they aren't going to make new spell lists so they can fit more classes in, whatcha gonna do?An earth spirit can't make a wall of stones appear? I think it's probably important to define what a "spirit" is before deciding what kind of spells are appropriate for them. They don't have to be ancestor spirits, after all. The druid spell list might be more fitting if they're looking for a WoW-type shaman.
I agree. Now we have ancestor spirits, the spirits that enter a leshy's body (that are also contacted with commune with nature), the spirits contacted by a spirit planchette, the spirits of the spirit totem, the spirits of the spirit ranger, the "spirits" the menhir savant can detect...
in case anyone hasnt pointed it out yet, the shaman intro text/familiar text refers to them as a witch twice.
also, calling the shaman's hexes 'hexes' just seems needlessly confusing with the witch around, since the shaman's are basically revelations from oracle with the name changed to say "yeah we're totally part witch guys".
though it does let them qualify for the extra hex (and other hex peripherals) feat, which may have been the idea from the start.
I cannot say much against the shaman.
I don't like mandatory pets. I hope there is at least an archetype that turns this into a bonded item.
I don't like Wandering Spirit. I don't like modulating things that are initially permanent choices because of the book keeping problems. Getting more spirits as they level could be a fun alternative.
Other than that It is among my favorites of the new classes. I love it so much.
|
|
I would have preferred the druid spell list to the cleric, but I love the class regardless.This is definitely the single biggest change I would make. This would give a second full caster using the druid list instead of a third full caster using the cleric list.When thinking of your spells as things granted to you by your connection to spirits, I feel that the cleric spell list would be a lot better suited. The druid list would help with the nature themes, but there are a lot more things that the spirits seem like they should be able to do that the druid spell list can't.
Granted, I'm not sure how spirits cause wall of stones to appear, but given that they aren't going to make new spell lists so they can fit more classes in, whatcha gonna do?
Cant say I agree with the late statement. Flavor wise I think the druid spell list is way more in line with what spirits would give a mortal. That of course is a matter of opinion.
While I too wish there were another class out there who would use the druid spell list I am glad the shaman does not do so as it is currently written. The druid spell list is build around buffing a wildshaped character while the cleric's list buffs melee charcters in general. It would be very hard to make a balanced class that uses the druid list and does not wildshape.
A mechanic that I would like the shaman to have would be to swap some cleric spells from his list for druid ones. I would also love if the shaman would use INT as his base cast stat. As it is the only dump stat for shamans are DEX, wich is a terrible stat to dump. This is the MADest class around and I am not a big fan of this type of class balance mechanic.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Yeah the big issue with Extra Hex tomfoolery is that you have to meet the pre reqs. And the Hex entry for Shaman's say you pick from those available to your Spirit. That's why it doesn't work to let you branch out it to the standard Witch hexes unless I'm missing something.
After some more thought I like a bit of what the class is doing I would do an overhaul. Let them cast from the Cleric list, that's fine. Let them sacrifice prepared spells for cure/inflicts, Oracles can do this just let Shamans do it too. Please note I couldn't see if that was included already, if so please direct me to it.
I would have their max spells/day/spell level be something like 2+3 (or 1+3) instead of 4+1. Where the +1 is spirit magic, aka domain spell. This would make it 2 prepared spells and 3 spirit magic slots. I'd do it this way as I would increase the number of spirits the class acquires as per one of my previous posts in this thread. This would result at end game giving them 2(plus any bonus spells from high stats) prepared and then 3 more floater spells they can cast on the fly from 4 different spirits. This adds some serious flexibility to the class, while also making the Spirit choices that much more important and have a greater effect on the class overall.
I'd revert the Hexes to being called Revelations, they can use Extra Revelation to get more of them as usual. I'd just add Hexes to the class at levels 3, 7, 11, 15, 19. Advancing at the Witch rate for major and grand levels. This lets them start using Extra Hex if they want to. Now this means they'll have a lot of sustained power throughout the course of a day. To tone things down I'd probably tweak their spell list maybe reduce their max spell level or more probably reduce their spells per day. Or put them back at the d6 poor bab area. I feel that a focus on Weird Powers derived from spirits makes a better fit for this concept than another caster.
HD, BAB and spell progression are all from the cleric, rather than the witch or oracle.
For comparison; It has the BAB and HD appropriate for a gish, just like the oracle, and it has the oracle's saving throws. The progression is based on the type of casting it does, and in this case its prepared 9 level.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
IMHO, maybe the Shaman could have casting like the Arcanist.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Though it seems like I'm tossing a lot of flak at this so far, it's only because I LOVE Paizo and I want to see a product I'm excited for. I don't want to see a product that feels lackluster or seems like it missed a great opportunity to do some awesome things and push the envelope. My hope is that we're far enough out in advance of the product that all the feedback across the playtest can have a strong impact on the final product so our community gets the greatest satisfaction possible from helping create a product we all want to see and can be excited for.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
To people saying the druid spell list would be better, I want to mention several specific spells:
Plane Shift
(Lesser/Greater) Planar Binding
Divination
Commune
Contact Other Plane
These are cleric spells, and notably are not druid spells. They feel like perhaps the 'most shaman' spells out of either spell list to me, and it would be criminal to have the class without them. I wouldn't mind the druid spell list with these (maybe a couple others) glued on, but then we're hardly better than a new spell list.
If we aren't making something new, I believe it has to be Cleric.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
While I still love the flavor of this class immensely, the MAD issue is starting to weigh more and more on me. I like to play a lot of casters, particularly debuffers. Prior to the release, I expected anything x-witch to be a new debuffer. After reading it, I realized the unique debuffs weren't really that great but it was still a full caster with awesome flavor and a cool new versatile mechanic. So I started trying to build one and I started running into problems. My baseline assumption for casters is max casting stat, I juice every DC for every full caster I have made to the max and I still see my spells fail much more often than I would like. It didn't take me long to realize that 18 wisdom wasn't happening here. But then as I am juggling stats, I am having a hard time even keeping wisdom at 17, so I bump that down again. I start thinking maybe I will just try and avoid save spells and abilities, but really that is what I wanted out of this class from the start. I am starting to see a buffer/healer here (which admittedly a witch and and oracle could be) but unable to specialize in anything else.
Perhaps it is my preconceived notions about what I was going to do with this class, but I probably going to hold off on creating one now and see what others experience.
While I am glad someone up thread clarified that all prepared divine casters use wisdom (the thought process on where wisdom casting came from drove me nuts) I would be very happy to either see that tradition scrapped, make a shaman spell list that could be called arcane, or use the fact that it is also a spontaneous caster to shift the casting stat back to charisma.
A couple of the hex rules are still unclear to me. Anyone care to give rulings or recommendations on these two issues?
1) For the Battle Ward hex, is there a limited duration or does it last the whole day? Also, is there a limit to the number of uses per day (each on a different creature)?
2) For the Arcane Enlightenement hex, can you re-choose which arcane spells to take each day if this is taken each day as a Wandering Hex?
Right now, my personal biggest wish would to see Witch-specific stuff at the very least reskined. I don't think the concept of Hexes fit Shamans that well, especially along side already having spontaneous casting from the spirits. I would also really like to see Familiar replaced with Totem or another type of bonded object- and then have archetypes that switch to familiars. (Or maybe a option for ether or-but reversing it from the witch might work really well with the flavor.)
As something of an undead fan, I also would like to see either a "Death" or "Grave" Spirit, or see Bones expanded more.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
One thing to keep in mind is that the game was balanced around something close to a 15 Point Buy. Yes. Even full casters were using that base point buy. If you're noticing your spells not sticking just because you need a 12 Charisma and can't start with 20 in your main casting stat...that's sort of what the game assumes.
One thing to keep in mind is that the game was balanced around something close to a 15 Point Buy. Yes. Even full casters were using that base point buy. If you're noticing your spells not sticking just because you need a 12 Charisma and can't start with 20 in your main casting stat...that's sort of what the game assumes.
But... I need a good strength to hit stuff and make it hurt, a good con to survive, a good dex because dex to everything amirite bro?, a good wisdom because that's what my spells do, and an okay charisma because my everything wants me to have at least an okay charisma, and I can't dump intellect without drooling so... I feel so conflicted!
Nope.
One thing to keep in mind is that the game was balanced around something close to a 15 Point Buy. Yes. Even full casters were using that base point buy. If you're noticing your spells not sticking just because you need a 12 Charisma and can't start with 20 in your main casting stat...that's sort of what the game assumes.
Many AP bosses have 20~25 PB, and often either have template(s), their CR is above APL +3, aren't humanoids, or a combination of those.
Bosses be bosses, yo
Bosses be bosses, yo
Thing is, sometimes the only reason they 'work' is because they break the rules.
Wave Strike (Su): As a standard action, the shaman can
perform a melee touch attack that drenches a creature
and pushes it away. The opponent is pushed 5 feet directly
away from the shaman. This movement does not provoke
attacks of opportunity. A shaman can use this ability
a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma
modifier. At 11th level, any melee weapon she wields
(except unarmed strikes and natural attacks) is treated as
if it had the quenchingUE weapon special ability.
The no save no "no dangerous square" clause on this feature sounds like a recipe for folks being dumped off cliffs, into traps, and into the ubiquitous pit spells.
Melee touch attacks are not a defense. There's simply no way to miss them.
Who ever wrote that sure did make it OP.
Wave Strike (Su): As a standard action, the shaman can
perform a melee touch attack that drenches a creature
and pushes it away. The opponent is pushed 5 feet directly
away from the shaman. This movement does not provoke
attacks of opportunity. A shaman can use this ability
a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma
modifier. At 11th level, any melee weapon she wields
(except unarmed strikes and natural attacks) is treated as
if it had the quenchingUE weapon special ability.The no save no "no dangerous square" clause on this feature sounds like a recipe for folks being dumped off cliffs, into traps, and into the ubiquitous pit spells.
Melee touch attacks are not a defense. There's simply no way to miss them.
On the other hand, five feet isn't very far, and quenching isn't the most amazing quality. If you don't use it well, the guy could just five foot step up and full attack you!(though I guess you could use this to move away...
Just spit-balling here but a possible combination of witch and oracle could be to make it a spontaneous caster based off of intelligence. Have it choose spells from the witch list. Gain bonus spells to its spells known based off the spirit. Also instead of a curse give them a taboo that must be followed based on said spirit. Somewhat akin to the wu jen from 3.5. Example, a shaman with the fire spirit cannot willfully bathe using water (but may use other means to keep themselves clean). Or a shaman with the life spirit cannot sleep in graveyards or around dead bodies. Nothing necessarily game-breaking, but could make for potential RP situations. Then lastly give them a few at-will abilities based on the spirit and call them "invocations" or the like (as the avoid confusion with hexes).
your thoughts? criticisms?
What are the stats for using elemental body IV to become an Ice or Lightning elemental? The Waves and Wind Spirits get this as an option for their True Spirit Ability Elemental Form, but as far as I know options for using elemental body to become Bestiary 2 elemental forms don't exist.
Hopefully, the options can be added to the spell (or a new paraelemental body created), since I'd hate to lose the options (especially ice, which would be thematic for or-so-many characters and enemies).
Just spit-balling here but a possible combination of witch and oracle could be to make it a spontaneous caster based off of intelligence. Have it choose spells from the witch list. Gain bonus spells to its spells known based off the spirit. Also instead of a curse give them a taboo that must be followed based on said spirit. Somewhat akin to the wu jen from 3.5. Example, a shaman with the fire spirit cannot willfully bathe using water (but may use other means to keep themselves clean). Or a shaman with the life spirit cannot sleep in graveyards or around dead bodies. Nothing necessarily game-breaking, but could make for potential RP situations. Then lastly give them a few at-will abilities based on the spirit and call them "invocations" or the like (as the avoid confusion with hexes).
your thoughts? criticisms?
RP restrictions are kind of bleh, they may never come up and while interesting, they shouldn't weigh that much on mechanical balance for a number of reasons. Invocations is stealing from another class too...
That does sound like another class entirely though. Wouldn't it be weird but cool if you had a shaman and a witch doctor, oracle/witch and a witch/oracle, one being more buffy/smashy and the other one being more cursed/debuff, both using different parts of both classes and their own unique features to a kind of their own and fulfilling two different roleplaying concepts with some similarities.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Question 2under shamans familiar it states: "A shaman can select any familiar
available to wizards, although her familiar is augmented
by the power of her chosen spirit (as noted below). Once
selected, the familiar cannot be changed."Are you allowed to take improved familiar?
"If a familiar is lost or dies, it can be replaced after
24 hours through a special ritual that costs 500 gp per
shaman level. The ritual takes 8 hours to complete."replaced fammiliar must then be of same type?
I was wondering the same thing. It would be nice to know if this class loses out on the possibility of an improved familiar.
Lead Designer
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Interesting feedback here folks, and there are definitely some points to chew on. As one of the larger classes, it does suffer from a few extra copy paste issues, as some of its abilities are reworked version of other class features. We will get that wrapped up well before the final version of the class.
As for the druid list, that is a very interesting solution for this class. I am going to give that some thought.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
I think it could be made less hybrid and more original. Other than a personalized spell list (or maybe the witch spell list!), why couldn't we create an original spirit list, with some overlaps but otherwise personal?
Lore Spirit, for one, is not very shamanic. I think to Ancestor Spirit, but also Fey Spirit. Outsiders and elementals are good, but where are Animal Spirits? Or Land and Terrain Spirits? Or Emotion Spiritis? Folklore provides a good list.
|
The main problem with the shaman is that the tastiest hexes aren't here anymore. Instead we've got each spirit with a few promising hexes, but since very very few of them last more than 1 round and there's no way to extend them after a few levels they're going to get ignored once you've got access to 3rd level and higher spells.
I haven't actually played an oracle in a game yet, so I can't speak about most of their mysteries/revelations, but I know that there is a few combinations that are powerful from seeing others use(Life to make an Oradin, or Heavens to use Color Spray forever). So they've also go things to extend into the later game.
With Witch you can run into a big baddy and without casting a single spell, spend a few rounds to debuff and then knock a guy out for the coup de grace. While it becomes a lesser choice at higher level because of the action expenditure, it's still a good option.
With the shaman though, most of the hexes don't let you get into a save or die situation, only a save or suck; and then its for 1 to cha mod rounds(which also won't be many since its a secondary stat).
Now, being able to swap out the ability and hex every day is pretty cool for the wandering spirit; but it seems to me only 1 or 2 of these spirits is going to be a real option for the permanent spirit(Nature and Battle) given the base ability of either reducing MAD, or the faster access to Bane with Battle.
The Life Spirit for example needs to lose it's greater ability(no body cares about having mass stabilize) and instead have the first ability from Battle. Battle on the other hand should get martial proficiency and a feat or two for its first ability.
One thing to keep in mind is that the game was balanced around something close to a 15 Point Buy. Yes. Even full casters were using that base point buy. If you're noticing your spells not sticking just because you need a 12 Charisma and can't start with 20 in your main casting stat...that's sort of what the game assumes.But... I need a good strength to hit stuff and make it hurt, a good con to survive, a good dex because dex to everything amirite bro?, a good wisdom because that's what my spells do, and an okay charisma because my everything wants me to have at least an okay charisma, and I can't dump intellect without drooling so... I feel so conflicted!
Did you actually try to build one? It was my goal to make a primary caster, be able to use my main class abilities ok, and not immediately die when I got into range to use my abilities. Those seem like fairly normal desires, and I felt conflicted just making that happen.
I would love it to have the druid list if not it's own spell list.
I would like to rename hex into something else since it is not using curses nor is it a witch.
I like the benefits the familiar gets based on what "mystery" you have chosen.