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The witch hex Ice tomb has several holes in its description:
[quote?PRD]Ice Tomb (Su): A storm of ice and freezing wind envelops the target, which takes 3d8 points of cold damage (Fortitude half). If the target fails its save, it is paralyzed and unconscious but does not need to eat or breathe while the ice lasts. The ice has 20 hit points; destroying the ice frees the creature, which is staggered for 1d4 rounds after being released. Whether or not the target's saving throw is successful, it cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
1) what is the range at which it work?
- 30', 60 like most major hex, line of sight?2) It work on objects (and so it can target undead and constructs)?
3) A target that is totally immune to cold damage is still "paralyzed and unconscious" as an effect of a failed saving throw?
4) As Mathwei ap Niall as repeatedly pointed out, it say that the target "does not need to eat or breathe while the ice lasts" but it still need to drink, so he will die of thirst while unconscious after a few day of being encased in ice.
5) If the target make his fortitude Saving Throw, it is still encased in the ice, but not unconscious and paralyzed?
As written the apparent reply is yes. and that make the hex a Save and suck supernatural power plus a Save or die supernatural power.
A "tiny" bit to much.
Note that a weak creature that need to breathe could die of suffocation if he made the Saving throw and his encased in the ice.
6) The ice duration seem straightforward: until it melt or the ice is destroyed.
Edit:
7) Actually, the name notwithstanding, nothing in the Hex description say that the target is encased in the ice. It say "A storm of ice and freezing wind envelops the target,", not "You trap the target in solid ice" like Icy prison.
As written the target is still plainly visible, there is line of effect to him and he can be attacked normally ....
It seem totally against the hex intentions, but RAW there is nothing encasing the target.
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| 2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. |
Searching the forum you find a few reasonable non official interpretations of how it work, but nothing official.
The only exception is this:
The hex can only affect creatures (text will be revised in the next printing of UM).
but after two year the correction hasn't jet been implemented.
Another SKR quote:
Icy prison and the ice tomb hex work similarly but don't have the same effect. The hex does not need to be changed.
So he has reversed his previous opinion?
Ice tomb is a major hex, and reading the major hexes in the APG I see that a lot of them are 60'. So I would make it 60'.
Regarding the rest, I am going to ignore the fluff and just look at the mechanics.
It does 3d8 damage (fort half). If you fail your save you are also paralyzed.
Ok, hold person paralyzes for 1 round per level and is a 2nd level spell. Searing light does 2,3,4, or 5d8 (at 10th level and is a 3rd level spell.
Combining these two gives us this major hex first available at 10th level (a level after 5th level spells are gained).
A fifth level spell that did just what hold person and Searing light do seems kind of weak.
This is where the fluff comes in. The paralyze part doesn't have a duration, so it becomes however long the ice lasts. To keep it from becoming a death sentence the bit about not eating or breathing was added. I would also add not needing to drink. It seems nonsensical to keep someone alive without breathing and then ignore drinking.
The hit points of the ice determines how long the effect actually lasts. Below freezing? forever! Above freezing? it depends. Rules on this don't exist. You could whip out some calculus to figure out something 'realistic'.
Try this.
Above freezing ice melts at 1 hp per hour. For every 10 degrees above freezing add 1 hp cumulative per hour.
So this gives for ice tomb.
32-40 ---- 20/1 = 20 hours
41-50 ---- 20/3 = 6.7 hours
51-60 ---- 20/6 = 3 hours
61-70 ---- 20/10 = 2 hours
71-80 ---- 20/15 = 1.5 hours
81-90 ---- 20/21 = .9 hours
91-100 ---- 20/28 = .7 hours
101-110 ---- 20/35 = .57 hours
111-120 ---- 20/43 = .46 hours
this works for me. :)
Well its hard to really say much. I think the RAI is pretty clear here. There are countless items that could use clarity or better wording.
As to the range, its not listed, so LoS and LoE should be sufficient to target. The target is only encased in ice if it fails its save. The ice keeps the creature paralyzed and unconscious until the ice is broken.
A creature that is immune to cold damage is still paralyzed and unconscious, yeah. The ice isn't hurting them, it is a physical barrier preventing them from acting.. like putting a wall of ice around them.
Undead and construct targets... well that is a bit more difficult. They are both immune to paralysis, but of course, the paralysis is really more representative of being frozen solid in a block of ice. RAI here is to let this work on these creatures even though they are normally immune, the ability should instead say that the creature is "helpless". Otherwise you can freeze a skeleton in ice... that still has hardness and HP... but they can still just walk around and act normally.
Further complications when you note that there is no caveat for incorporeal creatures... though one can assume they are immune to the freezing effect.
So... for the most part I would supplement this ability by referring to Icy Prison... which has better wording. So I would rule that LoE is blocked, and that attacking the target requires hitting the ice. Otherwise, why would you break the ice? This would just be way too good otherwise.
Although, I suppose you could kill living frozen targets without breaking the ice by using a Brilliant Energy Weapon
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The problem is that all of your questions are good ones but all we can really do is make suggestions on house rules to make it work.
I suggest people hit the FAQ button. Best chance to get developer feedback.
Its also a reasonably obscure power and isn't a great concern for most s don't hold your breath for an answer :-)
For what its worth, my personal opinions are:
60 ft range
Target always takes cold damage. If it makes save it is paralyzed and entombed, otherwise just fine. Anything can be entombed except things that cannot fail fort saves. Really doesn't make sense that a fort save stops you from being entombed but its magic and still quite powerful for a hex.
Immunity from cold doesn't protect you from being entombed.
Thirst doesn't affect you either. Oversight in RAW. RAI is you live
Target entombed in ice. Again, RAI seem clear to me and trump RAW
Reading it it isn't hard to follow. Anyone hit by this is encased in ice. 3d6 damage save for half.
If you make your save your encased and can break out.
If not your a decorarive object and children can sing amd play games around you.
Its similar to but better than icy prison.
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Reading it it isn't hard to follow. Anyone hit by this is encased in ice. 3d6 damage save for half.
If you make your save your encased and can break out.
If not your a decorarive object and children can sing amd play games around you.
Its similar to but better than icy prison.
So you think it is a Save and Suck plus a Save or Die power?
"If you make your save your encased and can break out." make it better than almost anything. What is the DC to break the ice? Unknown.
You can attack the ice from within to do the 20 hp of damage to remove it? You are encased in ice, very questionable.
"destroying the ice frees the creature, which is staggered for 1d4 rounds after being released." So even if you save, you are encased and staggered for 1d4 round after being released? Can I get something added to that, it is too weak [/sarcasm]
Well its hard to really say much. I think the RAI is pretty clear here. There are countless items that could use clarity or better wording.
As to the range, its not listed, so LoS and LoE should be sufficient to target. The target is only encased in ice if it fails its save. The ice keeps the creature paralyzed and unconscious until the ice is broken.
A creature that is immune to cold damage is still paralyzed and unconscious, yeah. The ice isn't hurting them, it is a physical barrier preventing them from acting.. like putting a wall of ice around them.
Undead and construct targets... well that is a bit more difficult. They are both immune to paralysis, but of course, the paralysis is really more representative of being frozen solid in a block of ice. RAI here is to let this work on these creatures even though they are normally immune, the ability should instead say that the creature is "helpless". Otherwise you can freeze a skeleton in ice... that still has hardness and HP... but they can still just walk around and act normally.
Further complications when you note that there is no caveat for incorporeal creatures... though one can assume they are immune to the freezing effect.
So... for the most part I would supplement this ability by referring to Icy Prison... which has better wording. So I would rule that LoE is blocked, and that attacking the target requires hitting the ice. Otherwise, why would you break the ice? This would just be way too good otherwise.
Although, I suppose you could kill living frozen targets without breaking the ice by using a Brilliant Energy Weapon
A power with a range of Line of sight .... No, I really doubt it.
"A creature that is immune to cold damage is still paralyzed and unconscious, yeah. The ice isn't hurting them, it is a physical barrier preventing them from acting.. like putting a wall of ice around them." and "Undead and construct targets... well that is a bit more difficult. They are both immune to paralysis, but of course, the paralysis is really more representative of being frozen solid in a block of ice. "
So you are paralyzed because you are frozen solid but being immune to cold damage don't prevent it? It can be one or the other, but not both.
Note that there are other spells and powers that encase you in something, but being encased, by itself, don't paralyze you. You can be unable to move, but paralysis is something different in this game. A person encased in a substance can try to break free. A paralyzed person can't.
Then there is the "unconscious" part. Undead can become unconscious? Constructs?
If any target become unconscious on a failed fortitude save it can affect a ghost without any problem.
Undead? No problem, he is unconscious, not paralyzed.
Incorporeal? No problem, he can't move as he is unconscious.
Can't be targeted by effects with a fortitude save unless they affe3ct objects? NO problem, nothing stop the power from working against objects.
Seeing the small number of undead and construct affecting abilities available to a witch this hex is a must if it work that way.
No SR (it is a supernatural effect), can affect anything, no way to protect you against it (Freedom of movement don't do anything, you are unconscious if you fail the save).
I think immunity does protect you because there is a rule that says if you don't take damage from an effect than additional things the effect does, like poison, don't happen.
If you are immune to cold damage then ice tomb does no damage and it's kicker doesn't happen.
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AFIK nothing is immune to unconsciousness.
Unconscious definition:
Unconscious: Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
A construct, that, I think, should be immune the unconscious condition, has the following immunities:
Immunity to bleed, disease, death effects, necromancy effects, paralysis, poison, sleep effects, and stunning.
So we have an absurd situation where a construct can be made unconscious and kept that way almost forever if stored in the right location.
A CR 19 adamantine golem has a +10 to fortitude saves.Ice Tomb used by level 10 witch with int 22 has a DC of 21. 40% chance of winning an encounter 9 levels above his own.
If the witch focus on this he can pump intelligence and have 26 int at level 10 plus ability focus in Ice tomb for a DC of 25. 70% chance of success.
Undead and Constructs are immune to any effect that requires a fortitude save. They are immune to the entire effect and don't even take the half cold damage.
So you think it is a Save and Suck plus a Save or Die power?
"If you make your save your encased and can break out." make it better than almost anything. What is the DC to break the ice? Unknown.
I think you are misreading him.
He is saying that if you save, you are encased in ice (take half damage) but you immediately break free (no action, no DC, not staggered, just a description of not being paralyzed/unconscious). I agree that is a great way to visualize it.
AFIK nothing is immune to unconsciousness.
Undead and Constructs are immune to unconsciousness due to being immune/unaffected by any situation that causes unconsciousness.
Both are immune to non-lethal damage, and are destroyed at 0 hp. Both are immune to Fort save effects unless they can effect an object. So there is no situation that I know of that a undead/construct would become unconscious.
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So you think it is a Save and Suck plus a Save or Die power?
"If you make your save your encased and can break out." make it better than almost anything. What is the DC to break the ice? Unknown.
I think you are misreading him.
He is saying that if you save, you are encased in ice (take half damage) but you immediately break free (no action, no DC, not staggered, just a description of not being paralyzed/unconscious). I agree that is a great way to visualize it.
"They can break out" is not "they automatically break out".
AFIK nothing is immune to unconsciousness.Undead and Constructs are immune to unconsciousness due to being immune/unaffected by any situation that causes unconsciousness.
Both are immune to non-lethal damage, and are destroyed at 0 hp. Both are immune to Fort save effects unless they can effect an object. So there is no situation that I know of that a undead/construct would become unconscious.
Care to show the line that say that? The power apply a condition. The condition make the target helpless.
Yours is a logic assumption and one I use, but not what the power say.
Honestly this, more than a FAQ request, is an errata request, but there is no option to ask for that.
Undead and Constructs are immune to any effect that requires a fortitude save. They are immune to the entire effect and don't even take the half cold damage.Only if the effect can't target objects. Nothing it this power say that it can't target objects.
Sean Reynolds says it can only target creatures. What more do you need? We are approaching willful ignorance here.
Well... as a GM I would look at Icy Prison as an incredibly similar spell that doesn't have... you know... horrible wording. I mean, according to the RAW here I can just Ice Tomb a creature and let the rogue stab it to death without breaking the ice.
Who breaks the ice? An ally of the affected creature I guess.
This is not how I would run this hex in game. Even the use of unconscious and paralyzed are very very poor choices. The fluff here is trying to state that the creature is encased in ice. So it can't move or even think... instant cryogenics, fine... but then you have to deal with specific immunities which override the spell even when it doesn't make sense that they should.
Conversely, there is nothing saying that you can't cast Icy Prison on an incorporeal creature... you can, according to the RAW for this spell, freeze a ghost... all pretty crazy IMO
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SKR quote #2 is here, was initially determining whether Ice Tomb was meant to be a will save like Icy Prison is; that's what his reply on Jan 31 is referencing.
The 60' range Zodin mentions is questionable - I don't see any major hexes with that range, let alone "most"? I actually thought the catch-all description that says "unless otherwise noted" next to the Hex ability mentioned a 30' range, but it neglects to mention range at all.
Icy Prison, oddly enough, is a reflex save 0.o
Because... dodge frozen-ness...
"Its cold out here...brrr.."
"Yeah we'd better get inside before we freeze to death!"
"Oh, I'm not worried, I am quite agile."
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Sean Reynolds says it can only target creatures. What more do you need? We are approaching willful ignorance here.Undead and Constructs are immune to any effect that requires a fortitude save. They are immune to the entire effect and don't even take the half cold damage.Only if the effect can't target objects. Nothing it this power say that it can't target objects.
Sean said:
The hex can only affect creatures (text will be revised in the next printing of UM).
We are November, 1, 2013, the Ultimate Magic 2nd printing was published January 2012, the errata was published 03/30/2012, the text is still the same.
The errata isn't even in the FAQ.A change that hasn't been applied isn't a change.
I am trying to get an official errata that most forum goes will find, not a 1 row post.
Well... as a GM I would look at Icy Prison as an incredibly similar spell that doesn't have... you know... horrible wording. I mean, according to the RAW here I can just Ice Tomb a creature and let the rogue stab it to death without breaking the ice.
Who breaks the ice? An ally of the affected creature I guess.
This is not how I would run this hex in game. Even the use of unconscious and paralyzed are very very poor choices. The fluff here is trying to state that the creature is encased in ice. So it can't move or even think... instant cryogenics, fine... but then you have to deal with specific immunities which override the spell even when it doesn't make sense that they should.
Conversely, there is nothing saying that you can't cast Icy Prison on an incorporeal creature... you can, according to the RAW for this spell, freeze a ghost... all pretty crazy IMO
Exactly my point.
Sean Reynolds says it can only target creatures. What more do you need? We are approaching willful ignorance here.Undead and Constructs are immune to any effect that requires a fortitude save. They are immune to the entire effect and don't even take the half cold damage.Only if the effect can't target objects. Nothing it this power say that it can't target objects.Sean said:
The hex can only affect creatures (text will be revised in the next printing of UM).We are November, 1, 2013, the Ultimate Magic 2nd printing was published January 2012, the errata was published 03/30/2012, the text is still the same.
Teh errata isn't even in the FAQ.
A change that hasn't been applied isn't a change.
Agreed... a forum post can help clear a small issue up, but this Hex needs a complete rewrite. If you are still looking for a RAW ruling, only the Devs will be able to help. Hopefully they will take a look.
Otherwise, talk to your GM (or if you are asking as a GM, make a decision) to figure out the functionality.
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Otherwise, talk to your GM (or if you are asking as a GM, make a decision) to figure out the functionality.
I am the GM. And I have written a "in my game errata" with 7 points, but I don't like having to do that because I feel that a hex description is fatally flawed.
If I change something I want to do that because I want a specific balance or flavor in my game, not because something simply don't work as written.I can hate Antagonize in all his versions and ban it from my table, but how it work is clear.
Ice tomb has a nice flavor and seem appropriate to its power level after being heavily redacted, but it don't work as written.
Sure, but its not hard to make determinations here.
Make it only affect creatures
Use the language from Icy Prison for the ice (e.g. blocking line of sight and being a barrier to physical attacks)
Make things that are immune to paralysis also immune to the unconsciousness and therefore the entire freezing effect (they just take cold damage)
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I'm not sure if this has ever been answered yet, but this hex 'seriously' needs an errata. Here are a few things I would like answered:
1) What is the range of Ice Tomb (I'm assuming either 30 or 60 feet)?
2) What is the duration of Ice Tomb (Hours/Minutes per level would be my guess)?
We have already established that Ice Tomb can only affect creatures, so that's some progress, but there are still a lot of questions that NEED to be answered about this hex. My overall guess is that its suppose to work like the "Icy Prison" spell, and if that's the case, we can pretty much use that spell as a baseline.
Here is my 'suggested' revised version of Ice Tomb...
Ice Tomb: A storm of ice and freezing wind envelops a creature within 60 feet, which takes 3d8 points of cold damage (Fortitude half). If the creature fails its save, it becomes trapped in a block of ice and gains the helpless condition, but can still breathe normally (the ice blocks line of effect to the target). This effect lasts for a number of minutes equal to the witch’s Intelligence modifier. The ice has 20 hit points; destroying the ice frees the creature, which is staggered for 1d4 rounds after being released. If the target makes its save, it gains the entangled condition for a number of rounds equal to the witch's Intelligence modifier, but can otherwise act normally. If the target creature takes no damage from this hex, it does not become helpless or entangled, regardless if it made its save or not. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
I know its kinda 'lenghty' and all (and I realize that the entire 'entangled' condition part was added out of nowhwere), but I think the above descritpion makes a lot more sense. Of course, if you wanted to edit out the 'entangled' part, it could look something like this...
Ice Tomb: A storm of ice and freezing wind envelops a creature within 60 feet, which takes 3d8 points of cold damage (Fortitude half). If the creature fails its save, it becomes trapped in a block of ice and gains the helpless condition, but can still breathe normally (the ice blocks line of effect to the target). This effect lasts for a number of minutes equal to the witch’s Intelligence modifier. The ice has 20 hit points; destroying the ice frees the creature, which is staggered for 1d4 rounds after being released. If the target creature takes no damage from this hex then it does not become trapped in the ice, regardless of whether it made its fortitude save or not. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
I hope some of this helps, and everyone please remember to click the FAQ button so we can get this issue addressed.
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Why would something cold-resistant *not* get trapped by a big block of ice? Just clarify the target as a corporeal creature and no more silliness freezing ghosts.
1) Nowhere in the hex description it speak of a "cube of ice". We assume it because it say that the ice has 20 hp, but it something that is assumed, not explicitly said.
2) The problem is that a cold-resistant or cold-immune creature will sill be made unconscious by this hex if it fail the save. Unconscious is not defined in the game and could be applied to any kind of creature, including undead and golems.
While there can be some basis in the original fiction for freezing flesh golems (it is essentially the Frankenstein monster), I doubt a iron of stone golem would care.
Similarly I doubt a frost giant would be paralyzed by a bit of cold.
3) The hex give no way to burst the prison if you are a creature immune to the unconscious and paralyzed effects. So a Nightcrawler Nightshade, with immunity to cold, paralysis, sleep and a strength of 41 will still be bound forever by the hex if it is in a cold environment.
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It is a Major hex, something that a witch can get as early as a 10th level and that she can use all day long, as long as she target different creatures.
It even remotely in the same league of a level 8 spell.
The "put into cryostasis" part of the hex should not work against creature that are immune to paralysis and/or cold.
And the "unconscious" condition should disappear, as its definition in the rules don't give any hint on who is immune to it:
Unconscious: Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature's Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
A undead can be made unconscious? Constructs? Any other creature that will not suffer from non lethal damage and/or will be destroyed when he get into negative hp?
This seems worthy of a answer. I have not seen it in play yet, but there's a lot of good questions here.
Same here. Maybe if two threads on completely different boards score 30+ FAQ requests each, this'll actually get noticed and corrected.
The problem is probably that it needs a whole rewrite it is written so badly.
If it was just one thing you would get an errata, but since it is roughly 7 it seems pretty unlikely to me
This isn't something completely unworkable, it just needs a small pow-wow by some devs to go, "Okay, so we MEANT for it to say this, let's say that that's how it works". Easy, done. If they make the ability less powerful than some people think it should be, whatever, at least it's spelled out now what it does. We're not asking for the Mona Lisa here. And besides, they've done comprehensive overhauls on abilities before via errata. Crane Wing, anyone?
Well, the other thread got locked due to people not staying on topic. Keeping this bumped. C'mon Paizo, show us you care when we pay attention to details.
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rt3
Witch, Ice Tomb Hex: What is the range of this hex? Can it affect objects? Does the target need to drink? Can it affect a cold-immune creature? If the target succeeds at its save, is it still imprisoned? How long does it last?
Like most major hexes, the range is 60 feet.
In the second printing of Ultimate Magic, the text says, "A storm of ice and freezing wind envelops the creature...," so it only affects creatures, not objects.
The target doesn't need to eat, breathe, or drink.
The general assumption for effects is if the creature negates the damage from the effect, the creature isn't subject to additional effects from that attack (such as DR negating the damage from a poisoned weapon, which means the creature isn't subject to the poison). Therefore, a cold-immune creature takes no damage from the hex and can't be imprisoned by it.
A target that succeeds at its save takes half damage and is not imprisoned.
Under temperate conditions, the ice lasts 1 minute per witch level. In tropical environments it might only last half as long. In cold environments where ice and snow persist without melting, it might last indefinitely.
Future printings of Ultimate Magic will incorporate these clarifications.
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9rt3
Witch, Ice Tomb Hex: What is the range of this hex? Can it affect objects? Does the target need to drink? Can it affect a cold-immune creature? If the target succeeds at its save, is it still imprisoned? How long does it last?
Like most major hexes, the range is 60 feet.
In the second printing of Ultimate Magic, the text says, "A storm of ice and freezing wind envelops the creature...," so it only affects creatures, not objects.
The target doesn't need to eat, breathe, or drink.
The general assumption for effects is if the creature negates the damage from the effect, the creature isn't subject to additional effects from that attack (such as DR negating the damage from a poisoned weapon, which means the creature isn't subject to the poison). Therefore, a cold-immune creature takes no damage from the hex and can't be imprisoned by it.
A target that succeeds at its save takes half damage and is not imprisoned.
Under temperate conditions, the ice lasts 1 minute per witch level. In tropical environments it might only last half as long. In cold environments where ice and snow persist without melting, it might last indefinitely.
Future printings of Ultimate Magic will incorporate these clarifications.
Nice, but one of the questions still stand:
Then there is the "unconscious" part.
Ice Tomb (Su): A storm of ice and freezing wind envelops the target, which takes 3d8 points of cold damage (Fortitude half). If the target fails its save, it is paralyzed and unconscious but does not need to eat or breathe while the ice lasts. The ice has 20 hit points; destroying the ice frees the creature, which is staggered for 1d4 rounds after being released. Whether or not the target's saving throw is successful, it cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Can you define unconscious in the context of this hex? Creature that are immune to paralysis and sleep can still be made unconscious and unable to move by this hex?
Undead can be made unconscious?Elementals?
As written the hex is applying a condition that normally is applied by "having negative hit points (but not more than the creature’s Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points", but that is not the case with this hex.
Further question:
If I am immune to the paralyzed and unconscious conditions or have some way to remove them, it is possible to burst or damage the ice from within?
What is the DC to break the ice from within?
A imprisoned fire elemental will damage the ice with his burn ability?
Edited for clarity and to add a the second question.
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Unconscious is a condition listed in the Core rules.
Unconscious: Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature’s Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.
Differentiated from Paralyzed:
Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.
Presumably, creatures immune to paralysis would still be victim to unconsciousness. Creatures not immune to paralysis would be paralyzed, but unable to take mental actions due to lack of consciousness with which to use them.
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Unconscious is a condition listed in the Core rules.
Unconscious: Unconscious creatures are knocked out and helpless. Unconsciousness can result from having negative hit points (but not more than the creature’s Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points.Differentiated from Paralyzed:
Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character has effective Dexterity and Strength scores of 0 and is helpless, but can take purely mental actions. A winged creature flying in the air at the time that it becomes paralyzed cannot flap its wings and falls. A paralyzed swimmer can’t swim and may drown. A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through.Presumably, creatures immune to paralysis would still be victim to unconsciousness. Creatures not immune to paralysis would be paralyzed, but unable to take mental actions due to lack of consciousness with which to use them.
Exactly my point (I should have added "in the context of this hex", I will Edit the post in a few minutes).
As written the hex is applying a condition that normally is applied by "having negative hit points (but not more than the creature’s Constitution score), or from nonlethal damage in excess of current hit points", but that is not the case with this hex.I can make a dragon unconscious (they are immune to sleep and paralysis) with this hex?
An undead?
An elemental?
An imprisoned creature that deal damage by contact (examples are a fire elemental with its burn ability or a Babau demon with his Protective Slime ability) will damage the ice or not?
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Undead are immune to Ice Tomb, as it requires a Fort save.
Dragons and Elementals are immune to paralysis.
For the corner case of imprisoning a fire-based creature in an Ice Tomb, have your GM determine what happens when it happens. Ice usually takes more damage from fire, would be my guess.
Don't expect a ruling for every possible creature this hex could affect. That's what GMs are for.
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Undead are immune to Ice Tomb, as it requires a Fort save.
Dragons and Elementals are immune to paralysis.
For the corner case of imprisoning a fire-based creature in an Ice Tomb, have your GM determine what happens when it happens. Ice usually takes more damage from fire, would be my guess.
Don't expect a ruling for every possible creature this hex could affect. That's what GMs are for.
The problem is unconscious Nefreet.
Can you cite a creature immune to it?Neither Dragon or Elementals are immune to it, so currently the hex affect them.
The FAQ has resolved the question only for Undead and only for ice tomb.
There is some other ability that make the target unconscious? I don't recall any, but there are a lot of books and I can have easily missed it.
Undead are immune to Ice Tomb, as it requires a Fort save.
Dragons and Elementals are immune to paralysis.
For the corner case of imprisoning a fire-based creature in an Ice Tomb, have your GM determine what happens when it happens. Ice usually takes more damage from fire, would be my guess.
Don't expect a ruling for every possible creature this hex could affect. That's what GMs are for.
The problem is unconscious Nefreet.
Can you cite a creature immune to it?Neither Dragon or Elementals are immune to it, so currently the hex affect them.
The FAQ has resolved the question only for Undead and only for ice tomb.There is some other ability that make the target unconscious? I don't recall any, but there are a lot of books and I can have easily missed it.
The spell suffocation knocks living creatures unconscious when they fail their initial save to it.
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The spell suffocation knocks living creatures unconscious when they fail their initial save to it.
Just completed a search of the PRD, I have found:
Color SprayScintillating Pattern
Suffocation
and
Knock-Out Blow
as things that apply the Unconscious condition beside Ice tomb.
Every one of those abilities/spell has a clear limitation on what it can affect. A limitation that is born from the origin of the effect (see this thread for my comments about those effects).
The hex only limitation is that it can't affect objects (so Undead and Constructs are immune to it), and that from a row of text that a lot of people will dismiss as fluff.
As you can guess I dislike very much the use of the unconscious condition in this hex as it will generate a lot of problems, and the hex is good enough and low level enough that it will see a lot of use.
I think that the hex, after the FAQ, will work fine even without the unconscious condition, so, to me the best solution seem to remove the unconscious part of the text.