Gotta agree with blackbloodtroll. If you really want a Gish with 9th level spells you should look into arcane archer. You know, so you can optimize your damage output.
Or, you could replace that 2 level dip in Fighter for a 2 level dip in magus so you can have Spell strike. I'd recommend Kensai archetype considering you won't go deep enough for Spell Recall.
Although I love the Kensai archetype, it doesn't work with Eldritch Knight in this situation.
"Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A kensai is proficient in simple weapons and in a single martial or exotic melee weapon of his choice. A kensai is not proficient with armor or shields and suffers normal arcane spell failure chance when casting magus spells while armored."
The EK prereq is to be proficient with all martial weapons. Also, going magus would drop that extra 1 BAB, which would put it at +15, which drops one extra attack on a full attack action when he's fully leveled. Although getting spellstrike instead is a pretty good option too, imo
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Who or what exactly is Gish? All that google produces is a Smashing Pumpkins album, a video game with what in Pathfinder would qualify as an ooze in the title role, a comedian and a generic family name.
I believe gish stands for Get In Some Hits. It applies to a spellcaster who acts like a fighter.
Gish was the term for githyanki fighter/mages from D&D
Gish was the term for githyanki fighter/mages from D&D
Yep, it has roots in the far history of D&D. Some people are quite fanatical about its common misuse, since "Gish" only applied to githyankis, and other forms such as an elven fighter/wizard was not referred to as a "Gish".
Popular vernacular has broadened the term to include any form of fighter/wizard.
I would probably not do all 3 of spell perfection, persistent spell, and the 2 spell focus feats on a gish (since it needs martial feats).
Since you are going with the spell perfection, I assume you have planned 1 go-to spell that must succeed. Then I would use perfection and persistent spell on that one.
If you have a whole school of offensive spells that you intend to use a lot, then the spell focus is good.
However, I know many people will disagree with me on that.
I think you will benefit more from the magus. The eldrich Knigth is really just a sup par wizard and a sup par figther that have to decide if he will figth not so great or he will cast a littel less impressive. of cause you can do some build sneekyness and get close to somthing good at both things. and with the trapper AT for the ranger level you can even disable devices( i think i would have preferred to keep the use of divine wands)
But in the end you will be forced to decide every turn if you figth or do magic.
Bab 16 or 17 is imop not all you need to figth along the best and all the way up you will be even the sorcerer getting spells.
But if you are fine with that the only problem i see in your build is that the saves will be kinda not too good.
And get the dimentional assult feats.
but Good luck and let us know how it turns out for you :)
I think you will benefit more from the magus. The eldrich Knigth is really just a sup par wizard and a sup par figther that have to decide if he will figth not so great or he will cast a littel less impressive. of cause you can do some build sneekyness and get close to somthing good at both things. and with the trapper AT for the ranger level you can even disable devices( i think i would have preferred to keep the use of divine wands)
But in the end you will be forced to decide every turn if you figth or do magic.Bab 16 or 17 is imop not all you need to figth along the best and all the way up you will be even the sorcerer getting spells.
But if you are fine with that the only problem i see in your build is that the saves will be kinda not too good.
And get the dimentional assult feats.
but Good luck and let us know how it turns out for you :)
First to the OP, can you clarify the build you are looking at. First you have Fighter 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 10, but then you discuss Ranger and Hellknight Enforcer abilities and have them in your level-by-level breakdown.
To Capt. Darling, I don't agree with your assessment. While the Magus is a good class, compare what you get between Magus 20 and the proposed Eldritch Knight build.
Higher BAB for Eldritch Knight
Higher spells for Eldritch Knight
Equal number of spells per day
Better average HP for Eldritch Knight
Caster level
And versus a straight Wizard
BAB
Spell level
Number of spells
HP
Caster level
Certainly, the Magus abilities of Spell Combat and Spell Strike are wonderful, and casting in armor is useful. Similarly, the extra spells a Wizard would have are a huge benefit.
But the higher level spells the Eldritch Knight get could very well match Spell Combat and Spell Strike, and the higher BAB and increased HP could make the Knight more survivable than the Wizard.
I am not trying to say one is better than the others, I am saying they are different paths, but you shouldn't dismiss one as sub-par in all areas. And the only save that would suck is Reflex (and it will suck).
Arcane Archer loses three caster levels and requires BAB+6 to enter. So, it is not a valid option for +16 BAB/9th level spells (which is every gish's goal).
It can still be incorporated into the build.
For example, Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Eldritch Knight 10/Arcane Archer 4
BAB 17, CL 17
Were you looking at something like...
Ranger 1/Wizard 5/Hellknight Enforcer 8/Eldritch Knight 6
BAB 15, CL 18
...?
I think you will benefit more from the magus. The eldrich Knigth is really just a sup par wizard and a sup par figther ...stuff...First to the OP, can you clarify the build you are looking at. First you have Fighter 2/Wizard 8/Eldritch Knight 10, but then you discuss Ranger and Hellknight Enforcer abilities and have them in your level-by-level breakdown.
To Capt. Darling, I don't agree with your assessment. While the Magus is a good class, compare what you get between Magus 20 and the proposed Eldritch Knight build.
...stuff
Certainly, the Magus abilities of Spell Combat and Spell Strike are wonderful, and...
I think the case is that as a E. knigth he will be 2 times 75% or even 90% but as a Magus he will be somthing different and better.
The Hellkingth and the Ranger is in his second suggested build.
Edit: spelling
I think the case is that as a E. knigth he will be 2 times 75% or even 90% but as a Magus he will be somthing different and better.
Different certainly. But better in what way? Measured how?
The Hellkingth and the Ranger is in his second suggested build.
Yeah, somehow I totally over looked that build. Huh. Feeling kinda sheepish now.
I think the case is that as a E. knigth he will be 2 times 75% or even 90% but as a Magus he will be somthing different and better.
Different certainly. But better in what way? Measured how?
...
In combat i think, outside the utility of the wizard spelll list may be better.
But a standart comabt takes pehaps 4 rounds, rounds where there is actually doubt about the outcome, pehaps even less. and here the E. Knigth have to either buff himself to a level where he is a relevant combatant, cast an offensive spell or attack some one. Magus can do all three.On paper it looks great that he can throw fireballs at the cluster of orcs and then take on the evil cleric in hand to hand combat.
But i think he will find that the wizard blew the orcs away, or tentacleded them or what ever while tha barbarian is pounce killing the evil cleric, all in the round he was buffing himself.
So often he will figth like rogue without sneek attack or cast like the barbarians Cohort wizard.
But the magus can beff up his sword with arcane pool(to somthing like full bab effect), cast with his left hand and full attack with his rigth, and even have limited pounce with forcehook charge.
I realize that after level 9ish the E. knigth will start to have more powerfull spells at his disposal but i dont think he will benefit from them like a magus with frostbite.
But then i may be wrong, i sometimes am.
The problem with magus is that it just isn't a very varied list.
that is true, there is that arcana to import a few spells, from the wizard list, but that is too littel, and expensive, to make him a utillity caster.
But the magus have potential to be alot more than intensified shocking grasp on a blade. And folks reading the guides sometimes think that is THE Magus trick. And it is not that narrow a list.
Asimar fighter 1/ wizard 1/ EK 10/ Signifier 8
Effective CL 2 less than full (+magical knack)
BAB 3 less than full
Average hit point per level: 5 (0.5 less than straigh fighter)
or
Asimar fighter 1/ wizard 1/ EK 10/ Arcane Archer 8
Effective CL 4 less than full (+magical knack)
BAB 1 less than full
Hit point: 2 less than straigh fighter
Skill points: 16 more than 2xlevel
Well to help offset the cost of having to pay for all your spells, I recommend Blood Transcription and a Blessed Book. Blessed Book is really a must as you can write in Borrowed spells at half the cost of writing materials, letting you get 9th level spells at the low low cost of 405 GP, since Blessed Book doesn't actually require you to pay the material costs.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the Ranger/Wizard build has more going for it then being a full caster and a high BAB fighter, it can also find and disable traps and will have a ton of skill points thanks to INT. Wizards also have a number of long lasting all day buff spells that it can bring to the table on top having a more varied set of utility spells that a magus is incapable of matching.
Also, you don't need to spend your turn buffing. You're a Wizard. I'd probably spend most of my first turns in combat laying down some battlefield control, summoning a monster, or buffing the party. Then, charge 'n chop. Remember that Quickened Mirror Image is only a 6th level slot (I might even consider Magical Lineage: Mirror Image 'cuz it's that good).
My point exatly. You are a wizard and come level 10 you will spend your turns doing wizard stuff(Just not the greatest stuff because you are a spell level behind) and only charge in in the last round and not do any more damage than a scorching ray.
I see the byild and the numbers are good but i dont think you will have time to use them. options is king as you say and options pr round is mor king than one.
And dont worry about filling up your books it is both easyer and cheaper in PF than in any of the games that came before.
The main benefit is it gets you into EK 4 levels earlier thanks to recent SLA ruling.Asimar fighter 1/ wizard 1/ EK 10/ Signifier 8
Effective CL 2 less than full (+magical knack)
BAB 3 less than full
Average hit point per level: 5 (0.5 less than straigh fighter)or
Asimar fighter 1/ wizard 1/ EK 10/ Arcane Archer 8
Effective CL 4 less than full (+magical knack)
BAB 1 less than full
Hit point: 2 less than straigh fighter
Skill points: 16 more than 2xlevelHow is the first build you posted better than the build I posted. I fail to see a benefit of Aasimar over Human for this.
he had a built like that in the OP and used the Hellkingth enforcer that gets arcane spells even ;)
ALso ask your GM if the hand holding your bound object can do the somatic components( like a harry potter wand) and get a sword. Then you can have a meta rod in the other hand.
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You're seriously pointing to a level 19 ability and claiming it helps? What about levels 1-18? You know, the ones I might actually get to play?The problem with magus is that it just isn't a very varied list.The Magus can access the wizard spell list to a certain degree.
When people start talking about +17 BAB 17 CL the assumption is they are talking about advancement to level 20.
I always take Spell Blending for the odd wizard spell I cannot live without.
I think you will benefit more from the magus. The eldrich Knigth is really just a sup par wizard and a sup par figther that have to decide if he will figth not so great or he will cast a littel less impressive. of cause you can do some build sneekyness and get close to somthing good at both things. and with the trapper AT for the ranger level you can even disable devices( i think i would have preferred to keep the use of divine wands)
But in the end you will be forced to decide every turn if you figth or do magic.Bab 16 or 17 is imop not all you need to figth along the best and all the way up you will be even the sorcerer getting spells.
But if you are fine with that the only problem i see in your build is that the saves will be kinda not too good.
And get the dimentional assult feats.
but Good luck and let us know how it turns out for you :)
Sorry it was late here. I intended to say that the possibillity to cast and figth in the same round is a huge benefit. And i think it gives you more options in the end.
But if you get to play it please tell us how it turns out for you:)
An Aasimar can take two levels of Magus, then Eldritch Knight at third.
But unless he also take wizard levels he is stuck with magus spell progression, but dosent get extra arcane pool powers arcana or better armored spellcasting8a bit expensive for 2 extra in bab.
If he takes the third level magus also he can get that arcana that let him use wizard spells with spell-combat and spellstrike but then level 9 spells is out.The magus is not a great multiclass option for EK.
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In the other camp there is the sohei Monk(1)and the Empyreal wildblodded blodline(9)+ EK (10). But that will give you at best bab 14 if you want to cast level 9 spells. but you will have flurry and casting stat to AC along with improved unarmed attack and some minor healing magic. And if you get a guided weapon you are alot less MAD than the other options.
This version of the EK is properly most interesting if the game starts no sooner than level 8
Perhaps a Bard build is viable?
I dont see how. But try it out.
The big books (Core, APG, UC, UM, ARG) 20 point buy and viable from level 1 ;)
a magus 10/EK 10 could be interesting...
you end up with +17 BAB and CL 19 (without Magical Knack)- granted its magus progression, so only up to 6th level spells but those spells are sort of custom chosen for a gish, plus you also count as a 15th level fighter for the purpose of qualifying for feats (which means almost any 'fighter-only' feat)...
obviously, not having 7-9 level spells hurts, but consider this... with your scimitar you have a 15-20 crit range (plus wf/gwf, spec/g.spec, etc.) you open your round with spell combat to cast disintegrate then (thanks to the close range arcana) use spellstrike to deliver it (giving it a huge crit range), follow that up with your 4 regular attacks (5 with a speed weapon or haste)- if any of those 5-6 attacks crit (which statistically, at least one should) it triggers Spell Critical, allowing you to cast a second spell (potentially another disintegrate if you really want to nova, lol) and, if its a touch or ranged touch, allowing you one more weapon attack to deliver it. that's a total of 6-7 weapon attacks and 2 spells in 1 round, and it should be fairly dependable (though, it obviously only works on full attack, and if the crit threat comes late in the iteration you might fail to confirm).
you definitely would lose utility (and just options in general) by not having wiz/sorc spell progression, but if you think about the high number of free uses of quicken spell you'll get from spell crit its kind of like all those spells are effectively making your 1-6 level spells into 5-10 level spells... just a thought.
As you mention, I can't see the first few levels of this being viable. At level 5 you only have a +2 BAB and requiring a specific magical item to be effective seems like a bad plan (unless you KNOW your DM will hook you up with it).
In the other camp there is the sohei Monk(1)and the Empyreal wildblodded blodline(9)+ EK (10). But that will give you at best bab 14 if you want to cast level 9 spells. but you will have flurry and casting stat to AC along with improved unarmed attack and some minor healing magic. And if you get a guided weapon you are alot less MAD than the other options.
This version of the EK is properly most interesting if the game starts no sooner than level 8
i actually think the problem with this build comes at the end, not the beginning... make it as a base aasimar and take sohei @1, EK @2, empyreal sorc @3 and EK from 4-12; for the first 2 levels you're a monk, 3-12 you gaining 1 CL/level so you'll quickly become a caster (but with way more HP than most, and monk defenses); at 3-4 you'll only have the BAB of a sorc but by 12-13 you're better than a 3/4 class. the problem arises after 13 (monk 1/sorc 2/EK 10)... because there's no other prestige class that'll keep you on track for 16+ BAB without costing 9th level spells... i think, technically, the hellknight signifier (enforcer on the pfsrd) would (monk 1/sorc 2/EK 10/signifier 7) but you'd have to take 2 completely worthless feats (med armor prof. and arcane armor traning) to qualify...
Nate: i think the magus/EK is bad. Look at all you give up for 2 in bab. Among toget things +2 on the arcane pool thing on the weapon.
But your analysis of the asimar version of the monk/EK seems about rigth.
The only 3/4 BAB class that can even consider EK is Summoner (master summoner). They give up a lot, but they're so broken they can get by EKing their ridiculous early entry everything spell list.
I wouldn't bother with Aasimar, though. The first long term valuable summon is the Lantern Archon (DR bypassing touch attacks and at will Aid) and when you have that you have the third level spell SMIII as an SLA anyways. I think it's probably worth the wait to get something from your class abilities.
Even if they get haste 1 level before the wizard. It is proberly a bad, bad trade.
Nate: i think the magus/EK is bad. Look at all you give up for 2 in bab. Among toget things +2 on the arcane pool thing on the weapon.
i'll be the first to say that magus/ek is not the most optimal build (i said "could be interesting" not 'would be badass')... clearly you'd be better off with full casting; my point was that you could probably have fun with one and have pretty decent damage output. the point of the build isn't to get the extra +2 BAB, its getting lots of extra attacks/spells. (plus who wouldn't enjoy rolling all those attack rolls and even more damage dice, lol)
Nate: i think the magus/EK is bad. Look at all you give up for 2 in bab. Among toget things +2 on the arcane pool thing on the weapon.i'll be the first to say that magus/ek is not the most optimal build (i said "could be interesting" not 'would be badass')... clearly you'd be better off with full casting; my point was that you could probably have fun with one and have pretty decent damage output. the point of the build isn't to get the extra +2 BAB, its getting lots of extra attacks/spells. (plus who wouldn't enjoy rolling all those attack rolls and even more damage dice, lol)
But the ful magus can do all that. All you get is +2 bab. I fail to se how that is more interesting than. Heavy Armor casting, full arcane pool stuff, improved Spell recall, counterstrike and so on. Ok you can also get greater weapon spec. at level 17 with the EK but that is about it.