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I think means the EKs ability to cast a swift action spell when he crits.


Durinor wrote:
I think means the EKs ability to cast a swift action spell when he crits.

Yes. That, the magus cannot do as well. But i think that at level 17(12 if asimar) or there about most spell casters wont have a swift action to Spend on Spell critical. The power may be better than i give it credit for i can think of Nice things to do with it but the different arcanas one will miss can do some of the same things.

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Cap. Darling wrote:
But the ful magus can do all that. All you get is +2 bab. I fail to se how that is more interesting than. Heavy Armor casting, full arcane pool stuff, improved Spell recall, counterstrike and so on. Ok you can also get greater weapon spec. at level 17 with the EK but that is about it.

oh, i see what you're saying... why take EK instead of full Magus- its for spell critical. i mean, the extra +2 BAB is an extra iteration, so thats nice, and you do get more hp also, but with a 15-20 crit range (which you'd be fool not to have) and 5 attacks/round, you're getting a free quickening pretty much every round that you full attack.

edit: lol, apparently i should have paid more attention to the fact that there were 2 more posts on the next page... as for wanting to use swift actions for other things- maybe by 20th that might be a consideration (though i can't think of too many options that'll be better than a quickened 6th level spell), but an Aasimar could do it at 11th level! i mean, we've established the draw back of not having 6th level spells already at 11th but it 'could be interesting' to cast intensified shocking grasp, make your free scimitar attack (for 11d6+whatever damage), take a full attack, and then most rounds have the option to cast a quickened intensified shocking grasp with another free scimitar attack (for another 11d6+whatever damage)... and all for the cost of 2 1st level spells (since you took magical lineage-shocking grasp)- it'll get worse/better at higher levels when you're kicking around 5th and 6th level spells. a standard gish is either casting a single spell with 0 melee attacks and praying for a nat 20 for spell critical, or making a full attack (with 1 less attack because of sc/ss) and counting on spell critical for a first spell (or, maybe, using quicken to get off an extra spell reliably- and burning through high level spells quickly).


I get you nate. But i think that the stuff you give up( like using brilliant energy on your blade) is better. If you rarely figth enemies immune to crit it may be some where in the same caliber i dont know.

To the OP sorry for the derail you have decided against the magus already.
But the scimetar trick Nate is describing will also work for your EK. But only work if you use a one handed weapon because you need a casting hand(unless your hypotical GM will allow the Harry potter wand thing). So get a scimetar or possibly a Katana.
The monky belt will allow you to hold a metamagic rod in your third hand and so will that thiefling stuff(tail trait) you may want to look in to that.
And if you decide for the scimetar you can go be a Dancer and ignore Str above 13.
The EK Dancer that cast spells most rounds because of full attacking and spellcrit, may be an alternative to the strong one that only charge in in the last round?


nate pehaps your magus/EK can use the Elven Spell dancer AT then he will not loose the Blade pool thing (since he already gave that up).


Sorry, could someone explain how your spell-like-ability counts as level 3 spell at character level 2? I checked the OP's link, but I still don't get it.


nate lange wrote:
i actually think the problem with this build comes at the end, not the beginning... make it as a base aasimar and take sohei @1, EK @2, empyreal sorc @3 and EK from 4-12; for the first 2 levels you're a monk, 3-12 you gaining 1 CL/level so you'll quickly become a caster (but with way more HP than most, and monk defenses); at 3-4 you'll only have the BAB of a sorc but by 12-13 you're better than a 3/4 class. the problem arises after 13 (monk 1/sorc 2/EK 10)... because there's no other prestige class that'll keep you on track for 16+ BAB without costing 9th level spells... i think, technically, the hellknight signifier (enforcer on the pfsrd) would (monk 1/sorc 2/EK 10/signifier 7) but you'd have to take 2 completely worthless feats (med armor prof. and arcane armor traning) to qualify...

I can see where you're coming from. It's tough at the front and rear ends, but looks like it would be a great build to play in a mid-level one-shot though.

cap. darling wrote:


I get you nate. But i think that the stuff you give up( like using brilliant energy on your blade) is better. If you rarely figth enemies immune to crit it may be some where in the same caliber i dont know.

To the OP sorry for the derail you have decided against the magus already.
But the scimetar trick Nate is describing will also work for your EK. But only work if you use a one handed weapon because you need a casting hand(unless your hypotical GM will allow the Harry potter wand thing). So get a scimetar or possibly a Katana.
The monky belt will allow you to hold a metamagic rod in your third hand and so will that thiefling stuff(tail trait) you may want to look in to that.
And if you decide for the scimetar you can go be a Dancer and ignore Str above 13.
The EK Dancer that cast spells most rounds because of full attacking and spellcrit, may be an alternative to the strong one that only charge in in the last round?

The Scimitar trick is just that, a trick. It's something that the magus can do very effectively, but there are so many ways around it and it becomes seriously repetitive and boring at higher levels.

Like you said, I have disregarded the Magus as an option for this build. The versatility of the Wizard spellcasting is just too good to give up. This build is attempting to keep that spell versatility while also having a reliable martial option.

The Dervish Dance route would push the stat focus to Dexterity. While this is not impossible by any means, it is counter-productive to the ASF reduction abilities gained, heavy armor proficiency gained, and makes 1st and 2nd level very sub-optimal (you'd be a low-str ranger with a scimitar and no dervish dance). I'll consider it, thanks for the suggestion.

If you'd like to continue discussing the Magus/EK, please feel free to start a new thread. I'd like to focus on the Wizard-based EK/HKE build in the OP.

Is there a better class to take at first level to get Martial Weapon proficiency? I went with the Freebooter/Trapper Ranger for added versatility, two good saves, and awesome skill points.

Let's also talk about spells without Somatic components. While not a necessity, it's nice to know there are some decent options that will not require you to spend a Swift Action on Arcane Armor Training, or use Still Spell. Here are the ones I was able to track down:

Anti-Summoning Shield
Blindness/Deafness
Blur
Buoyancy
Burst of Speed
Charm Monster, Mass
Chastise
Contact Other Plane
Damnation Stride
Darkness
Dimension Door
Displacement
Dweomer Retaliation
Echolocation
Emergency Force Sphere
Feather Fall
Fiery Body
Flare
Flare Burst
Geas, Lesser
Geas/Quest
Hold Portal
Ice Crystal Teleport
Imbue With Flight
Interplanetary Teleport
Irresistible Dance
Knock
Liberating Comand
Liberating Command
Light
Lighten Object
Lighten Object, Mass
Lover's Vengeance
Mage's Disjunction
Phase Door
Planar Adaptation
Planetary Adaptation
Power Word Blind
Power Word Kill
Power Word Stun
Prismatic Sphere
Resonating Word
Shout
Sotto Voce
Spark
Steal Voice
Suggestion
Suggestion, Mass
Sure Casting
Teleport
Teleport Object
Teleport Structure
Teleport, Greater
Teleportation Circle
Time Stop
Tongues
Tongues, Communal
True Strike
Truespeak
Unconscious Agenda
Ventriloquism
Vision of Hell
Wail of the Banshee

Are there any I missed?


Turgan wrote:
Sorry, could someone explain how your spell-like-ability counts as level 3 spell at character level 2? I checked the OP's link, but I still don't get it.

The link leads to this FAQ ruling by the design team:

"Does a creature with a spell-like ability count as being able to cast that spell for the purpose of prerequisites or requirements?

Yes.

For example, the Dimensional Agility feat (Ultimate Combat) has "ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door" as a prerequisite; a barghest has dimension door as a spell-like ability, so the barghest meets the "able to cast dimension door prerequisite for that feat.

Edit 7/12/13: The design team is aware that the above answer means that certain races can gain access to some spellcaster prestige classes earlier than the default minimum (character level 6). Given that prestige classes are usually a sub-optimal character choice (especially for spellcasters), the design team is allowing this FAQ ruling for prestige classes. If there is in-play evidence that this ruling is creating characters that are too powerful, the design team may revisit whether or not to allow spell-like abilities to count for prestige class requirements.

—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/06/13"

So the Scryer Wizard archetype's Clarivoyance spell-like ability counts as being able to cast a 3rd level spell (which EK and HKE both require).


Cap. Darling wrote:
Atarlost wrote:

The only 3/4 BAB class that can even consider EK is Summoner (master summoner). They give up a lot, but they're so broken they can get by EKing their ridiculous early entry everything spell list.

I wouldn't bother with Aasimar, though. The first long term valuable summon is the Lantern Archon (DR bypassing touch attacks and at will Aid) and when you have that you have the third level spell SMIII as an SLA anyways. I think it's probably worth the wait to get something from your class abilities.

Even if they get haste 1 level before the wizard. It is proberly a bad, bad trade.

They get a lot of conjuration early and can cast in light armor.


@7heprofessor: Thanks a lot!


7heprofessor wrote:
...
cap. darling wrote:

...

To the OP sorry for the derail you have decided against the magus already.
But the scimetar trick Nate is describing will also work for your EK. But only work if you use a one handed weapon because you need a casting hand(unless your hypotical GM will allow the Harry potter wand thing). So get a scimetar or possibly a Katana.
The monky belt will allow you to hold a metamagic rod in your third hand and so will that thiefling stuff(tail trait) you may want to look in to that.
And if you decide for the scimetar you can go be a Dancer and ignore Str above 13.
The EK Dancer that cast spells most rounds because of full attacking and spellcrit, may be an alternative to the strong one that only charge in in the last round?
The Scimitar trick is just that, a trick. It's something that the magus can...

If you reread what i wrote while not thinking about the magus you may realize that i wasent(thing about him;)). I was refering to the trick about getting crits almost every round for using the EK capstone.

It you expect to cast most stuff stilled or simply pick spells without somatic components(your list looks fine by the way) is is of cause not a big deal but else casting that free swift spell is only happening if you have a hand free.
And all the stuff about getting an extra hand for optimizing action economy is still valid for that all important metarod.

The shift from str to dex yes unless you start out as a wizard and take a figther level at level 2 or that ranger level at level 3 then it will be fine.
But you are aming for a big guy in a full plate hurling spells yes?


The fact that DDoor has no Somatic component makes me even more interested in building an EK around the Dimensional Dervish feat chain.


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List of Spells with no Somatic Component. Ones marked with (*) are not on the Sorc/Wizard Spell List

Spoiler:
0-Level:
Flare
Light (M/DF)
Spark

1-Level:
Hold Portal
True Strike? (F)
Flare Burst
Ventiloquism (F)
Feather Fall
Jury-Rig?
Liberating Command
Lighten Object (M)
Sure Casting (F)

2-Level:
Darkness (M/DF)
Blur
Blindness/Deafness
Steal Voice
Buoyancy
Knock

3-Level:
Tongues (M)
Lover's Vengeance (M)
Displacement (M)
Vision of Hell (M)
Dweomer Retaliation
(*)Burst of Speed

4-Level:
Dimension Door
Tongues, Communal
Geas, Lesser
Shout
Emergency Force Sphere

5-Level:
Teleport
Contact Other Plane
Damnation Stride
Echolocation
Lighten Object, Mass
Planar Adaptation
Planetary Adaptation
Truespeak

6-Level:
Ice Crystal Teleport
Teleport Structure
Suggestion, Mass
Unconscious Agenda

7-Level:
Teleport, Greater
Teleport Object
Phase Door
Power Word Blind
Resonating Word

8-Level:
Irresistible Dance
Power Word Stun
Charm Monster, Mass
(Oddly, regular Charm Monster doesn't work)

9-Level:
Mage's Disjunction
Interplanetary Teleport
Teleportation Circle
Power Word Kill
Prismatic Sphere
Wail of the Banshee
Fiery Body
Time Stop

By no means do I claim this to be comprehensive, as I also checked up on the list above and found some that I missed, but here's a start.


ZanThrax wrote:
The fact that DDoor has no Somatic component makes me even more interested in building an EK around the Dimensional Dervish feat chain.

The more I think about it, the more I think this is the way to go.

Here is the updated feat progression:

1. Weapon Focus: Nodachi
1. Power Attack (human)
1. Track (ranger)
2. Scribe Scroll (wizard)
3. Arcane Armor Training (Eldritch Knight)
3. Furious Focus
5. Still Spell
7. Arcane Armor Mastery (Hellknight Enforcer)
7. Quicken Spell - can't really use it for 4 more levels though :(
9. Dimensional Agility
11. Dimensional Assault
11. Weapon Specialization (E.K.)
13. Dimensional Dervish
15. Improved Critical (E.K.)
15. Critical Focus
17. Blinding Critical
19. Dazing Assault

This is a much more martial-focused feat selection. I feel the caster side is inherently more powerful and, thus, needs less feat support. It lacks any real magical tricks or combos and will play relatively straight-forward as far as its spellcasting goes. Thoughts?


One question, why are you splitting up the Hellknight Enforcer and Eldritch Knight levels?


Valdast wrote:
One question, why are you splitting up the Hellknight Enforcer and Eldritch Knight levels?

You can't qualify for HKE until level 5 due to skill requirements. I chose to enter it as soon as possible and go three levels to get Arcane Armor Expertise and Signifier Armor Training ASAP. This just opens up more armors as options.


ZanThrax wrote:
The fact that DDoor has no Somatic component makes me even more interested in building an EK around the Dimensional Dervish feat chain.

Looks like DDoor is a 4th level spell. That's a long wait...or is there a fast track to kick start it?


Havoq wrote:
ZanThrax wrote:
The fact that DDoor has no Somatic component makes me even more interested in building an EK around the Dimensional Dervish feat chain.
Looks like DDoor is a 4th level spell. That's a long wait...or is there a fast track to kick start it?

Dimensional Dervish (the best feat in the tree) requires a +6 BAB anyway, so there's no good reason to try and cheese your way into it much earlier.

The only other way of getting it earlier than this build does is to use magic items that let you use the spell...and I'm not even sure that would be worth the investment.


7heprofessor wrote:
Valdast wrote:
One question, why are you splitting up the Hellknight Enforcer and Eldritch Knight levels?
You can't qualify for HKE until level 5 due to skill requirements. I chose to enter it as soon as possible and go three levels to get Arcane Armor Expertise and Signifier Armor Training ASAP. This just opens up more armors as options.

Agreed. The first three levels of Signifier give sufficient benefits that they ought to be taken ASAP, leaving the rest for after EK 10.

What I can't make up my mind about though is if Ranger's better than Fighter for the martial class. +2 Reflex saves is nice I suppose, but Reflex is the least important save. A few extra skill points shouldn't be that big a deal to a Int-caster over the long haul. I think the extra feat is going to be more helpful, at least early on.

edit: Here's what I'm thinking of for a half-elf build using Fighter instead of Ranger.
1. F: Weapon Focus
1. Elven Spirit
2. Scribe Scroll (wizard)
3. Arcane Armor Training (Eldritch Knight)
3. Power Attack
5. Multitalent Mastery
7. Arcane Armor Mastery (Hellknight Signifier)
7. Weapon Spec
9. Dimensional Agility
10. Combat Reflexes (EK)
11. Dimensional Assault
13. Dimensional Dervish
14. Greater Weapon Focus (EK)
15. Critical Focus
17. Critical Versatility
19. Greater Weapon Spec


ZanThrax wrote:
7heprofessor wrote:
Valdast wrote:
One question, why are you splitting up the Hellknight Enforcer and Eldritch Knight levels?
You can't qualify for HKE until level 5 due to skill requirements. I chose to enter it as soon as possible and go three levels to get Arcane Armor Expertise and Signifier Armor Training ASAP. This just opens up more armors as options.

Agreed. The first three levels of Signifier give sufficient benefits that they ought to be taken ASAP, leaving the rest for after EK 10.

What I can't make up my mind about though is if Ranger's better than Fighter for the martial class. +2 Reflex saves is nice I suppose, but Reflex is the least important save. A few extra skill points shouldn't be that big a deal to a Int-caster over the long haul. I think the extra feat is going to be more helpful, at least early on.

edit: Here's what I'm thinking of for a half-elf build using Fighter instead of Ranger.
1. F: Weapon Focus
1. Elven Spirit
2. Scribe Scroll (wizard)
3. Arcane Armor Training (Eldritch Knight)
3. Power Attack
5. Multitalent Mastery
7. Arcane Armor Mastery (Hellknight Signifier)
7. Weapon Spec
9. Dimensional Agility
10. Combat Reflexes (EK)
11. Dimensional Assault
13. Dimensional Dervish
14. Greater Weapon Focus (EK)
15. Critical Focus
17. Critical Versatility
19. Greater Weapon Spec

I prefer Ranger simply for the Class Skills. You can fill the trap-monkey role with this build thanks to the +3 class skill bonus on Perception and Disable Device, plus scouting with Stealth, tracking with Survival, and Wizard gets you all the knowledges. That's way better than one feat to me.

As to your build, you can't take Greater Weapon Specialization because it requires Fighter 12. One off unforutnately.

Question: does Multitalent Mastery allow Prestige Classes to add Favored class bonus? Specific vs. General rule may apply here.


7heprofessor wrote:

...

Question: does Multitalent Mastery allow Prestige Classes to add Favored class bonus? Specific vs. General rule may apply here.

I believe that yes it does. But I won't swear to that. =)


The extra class skills is a nice boost for going Ranger. If I went that way I guess I'd give up the Elven Magic feat rather than delaying a combat feat.

Ah you're right about GWS; I misread Diverse Training as saying that his arcane caster class levels also counted for fighter feats.

I don't see any point to Multitalent Mastery if it doesn't work for Prestige Classes so assume that "all classes" means "all classes".

And I just noticed that I forgot Dimensional Savant, so I guess that should go in at 15 and push the rest forward, leaving GWS out entirely.


7heprofessor wrote:
Havoq wrote:
ZanThrax wrote:
The fact that DDoor has no Somatic component makes me even more interested in building an EK around the Dimensional Dervish feat chain.
Looks like DDoor is a 4th level spell. That's a long wait...or is there a fast track to kick start it?

Dimensional Dervish (the best feat in the tree) requires a +6 BAB anyway, so there's no good reason to try and cheese your way into it much earlier.

The only other way of getting it earlier than this build does is to use magic items that let you use the spell...and I'm not even sure that would be worth the investment.

It's level 3 on the summoner list so a Samsaran going into EK through wizard (or witch) 5 could take Dimensional Agility at 5th, Dimensional Assault at 7th, and get dimensional dervish at 9th.


I suppose that's true, but going back to five levels of Wizard kinda breaks the Gish-ness of the early entry EK / Signifier combo. BAB will cap at 15 now instead of 17.

Early entry DDoor via Samsaran might still be a good idea though; starting the Dimensional chain at 7th instead of 9th is still a nice boost, and getting DDoor down to 3rd level makes it even more tempting to spend the two feats on Preferred Spell so that it can be cast spontaneously.


7heprofessor wrote:
Is there a better class to take at first level to get Martial Weapon proficiency? I went with the Freebooter/Trapper Ranger for added versatility, two good saves, and awesome skill points.

Gunslinger? You get a different set of skills and fewer of them, only 4+Int instead of 6+Int. You still get the good Fort and Reflex Saves. You get Gunsmithing, though that probably isn't worth anything. You also get Grit, which you should be able to get a few points of each day at later levels. With the Gun Tank AT, you also get Medium and Heavy Armor proficiency, and Shield and Tower Shield proficiency(for whatever Tower Shields are worth). You also get to play around with firearms, though they probably won't be as useful as any bow you could pick up or spell you could throw.

The big plus for Gun Tank, though, is you lose the relatively useless Gunslinger's Dodge and gain Gun Tank's Resolve, which for you is an immediate reaction 25% chance crit/sneak attack negater.


What is the exact class Progression from level 1 to 20?


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1. Ranger 1
2. Wizard 1
3. Eldritch Knight 1
4. EK 2
5. EK 3
6. Hell Knight Enforcer 1
7. HKE 2
8. HKE 3
9. EK 4
10. EK 5
11. EK 6
12. EK 7
13. EK 8
14. EK 9
15. EK 10
16. HKE 4
17. HKE 5
18. HKE 6
19. HKE 7
20. HKE 8

This was my initial suggested build. I am still not 100% on it though, as getting the Eldritch Knight bonus combat feats at specific levels may be necessary. Thoughts?


Thanks. Looks good to me so far. Yet, I don't know much about Gish-crafting. Only problem for me: the fluff of the hellknight enforcer isn't really appealing.

Is there any other 3/4 BAB class with full spell progression?


cleric


ZanThrax wrote:

I suppose that's true, but going back to five levels of Wizard kinda breaks the Gish-ness of the early entry EK / Signifier combo. BAB will cap at 15 now instead of 17.

Early entry DDoor via Samsaran might still be a good idea though; starting the Dimensional chain at 7th instead of 9th is still a nice boost, and getting DDoor down to 3rd level makes it even more tempting to spend the two feats on Preferred Spell so that it can be cast spontaneously.

I just really hate the Samsaran ability score traits: a useless bonus to Wisdom (a dump stat in this build) and a penalty to Con always hurts.

However, if Dimensional Dervish proves to be as powerful as many think, it may still be worth it. I'd want to start with a higher intelligence with this racial choice to make better use of the Mystic Past Life ability.

15 pt buy:

Str 16 (10 pts)
Dex 13 (3 pts)
Con 14 (5 pts) -2 racial = 12
Int 14 (5 pts) +2 racial = 16
Wis 7 (+4 pts) +2 racial = 9
Cha 7 (+4 pts)

This gives me 4 spells from other classes. Dimension Door as a second level spell is one, but what are some other good options?

Haste as a 2nd level spell?
Black Tentacles as a 3rd?
Dance of a Hundred Cuts (4th lvl Bard spell)? [bonus points for being Verbal only]
Heroism?
Cure/Restoration spells?

Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
cleric

This doesn't help the build at all... ;)


I do remember seeing an arcane durlist Ek that was awesome. Cant remember where though.


7heprofessor wrote:

1. Ranger 1

2. Wizard 1
3. Eldritch Knight 1
4. EK 2
5. EK 3
6. Hell Knight Enforcer 1
7. HKE 2
8. HKE 3
9. EK 4
10. EK 5
11. EK 6
12. EK 7
13. EK 8
14. EK 9
15. EK 10
16. HKE 4
17. HKE 5
18. HKE 6
19. HKE 7
20. HKE 8

This was my initial suggested build. I am still not 100% on it though, as getting the Eldritch Knight bonus combat feats at specific levels may be necessary. Thoughts?

There's a part of me that really want to rush to 8th level Hellknight Enforcer so that you can wear Mythril Kikko Armor (or Mythril Chainshirt) with 0% spell failure chance, freeing up your swift actions. It does mean giving up Spell Critical though, so I guess it depends on how much use you can get out of not having to spend a swift on Arcane Armor training. Also picks you up the True Seeing Assiduous Gaze along with either Elucidation or Morality. Ultimately, probably depends on when you need the EK bonus feats/effective fighter levels to complete a chain.


Atarlost wrote:
7heprofessor wrote:
Havoq wrote:
ZanThrax wrote:
The fact that DDoor has no Somatic component makes me even more interested in building an EK around the Dimensional Dervish feat chain.
Looks like DDoor is a 4th level spell. That's a long wait...or is there a fast track to kick start it?

Dimensional Dervish (the best feat in the tree) requires a +6 BAB anyway, so there's no good reason to try and cheese your way into it much earlier.

The only other way of getting it earlier than this build does is to use magic items that let you use the spell...and I'm not even sure that would be worth the investment.

It's level 3 on the summoner list so a Samsaran going into EK through wizard (or witch) 5 could take Dimensional Agility at 5th, Dimensional Assault at 7th, and get dimensional dervish at 9th.

Dimension Door already exists on the Wizard spell list. This feels like cheese, IMO, and I'm pretty sure most DMs would reasonably disallow it.

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