though to get the full effect you'd have to invest 15 levels in monk for the full 3 extra flurry attacks (as well as the +1 from ki), but no benefit from rapid shot iirc--or was that just the zen archer that had that limitation?). and since youre using guns manyshot is out too.
juggling your gun/ranged feats and having to grab style feats WITH the prereqs (since sohei doesnt stack with MoMS, and you'd lose out on flurry, missing the whole point, and unarmed fighter only gets the close weapon group for WT, again, missing the point) might be a tad tricky to do and stay competitive.
then again you'd end up at 20th with ~8 attacks (~3 bab with all that dipping + 3 max flurry + 1 ki + 1 rapid shot if able), or 16 if youre going double-barrelled.
either way you'd need a REALLY reliable gun, since misfiring (which is generally 3-ish or more since everyone always uses paper cartridges) on any of them will halt your attack, and 2 in a row will nuke your face.
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Actually no, the fighter 3/sohei 1 has flurry exactly like a monk and Weapon Training exactly like a fighter.
Only when he gets to 6th level does he receive WT as a fighter for specific categories of weapons PLUS the ability to use weapons he has WT in a flurry.
With the same kind of logic, multiclassing ranger 1/hateful rager barbarian 1 does not mean you need to perform a DC 20 Will save to attack another creature than your favored enemy while raging, because you don't have the hateful rager's "favored enemy" class feature which includes this specificity yet (despite it acting in any other way as the ranger's class feature).
Also, you can wield two-handed firearms in one hand with a -2 penalty, so technically you could TWF with a glove of storing :
Pick both guns, TWF
Store off-hand weapon (free action)
Reload main (free action)
Get back off-hand weapon (free action)
Switch weapons (free action)
Store main weapon (free action)
Reload off-hand (free action)
Get back main (free action)
Done ! Just use your main first each round so it remains main weapon.
so basically you become mami (from madoka) by juggling muskets. though between the penalty for 2h firearm in one hand, TWF, cover/concealment, and the pesky misfire chance, youve got a decent amount of risk youre taking, so people cant complain that youre the OP haxxorz or whatever the kids call it these days.
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the OP stated
Gunslinger(Pistolero)5/Fighter(Trench Fighter)5 (with Weapon Training in Firearms)/Monk (Sohei) 1
Which begs the question why pick up a single lvl in a class for the sake of flurry when all you're getting out of it is TWF that's not twf, and wis to ac...
Or you could simply get any other class and do more. in particularly you'd have a +1BAB from many other classes....
If you want to talk about going full flurry, again why do pistol (musket yo)
But then again it's still alot of work fore less. Rapid shot is effectively twf for ranged...
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Which begs the question why pick up a single lvl in a class for the sake of flurry when all you're getting out of it is TWF that's not twf, and wis to ac...
I thought it was obvious what he is getting out of it?
He believes he has found a grand "rules breaking silly interpretation of the rules he can claim is RAW" and he is happy to have found it.
It doesn't need to be an utterly broken interpretation, it just has to be something that isn't correct but he can claim (for ever) is valid.
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but the only benefit the monk class is adding is a single additional attack that causes all others to be at a -2, and if it's not a light weapon (which the case can be made, the penalty is even higher since it functions as if TWF)
the flurry table is provided for ease of figuring out attack, but it's based off TWF progression with a few exceptions IE no "offhand" and you can use any monk weapon with it.
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see if you're going the lvl 15 route, sure go for it (and I'd use a rifle myself!) the whole just using one monk lvl for the sake of flurry though just makes zero sense no matter how I look at it from and optimization standpoint and a character standpoint.
I would like to make one point though that potentially screws the pooch on this.
Flurry of Blows (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a zen archer can make a flurry of blows as a full-attack action, but only when using a bow (even though it is a ranged weapon). He may not make a flurry of blows with his unarmed attacks or any other weapons. A zen archer does not apply his Strength bonus on damage rolls made with flurry of blows unless he is using a composite bow with a Strength rating. A zen archer's flurry of blows otherwise functions as normal for a monk of his level.
A zen archer cannot use Rapid Shot or Manyshot when making a flurry of blows with his bow.
It's very clear that it's still treated as if TWF for it's functionality, and does not apply to non-melee attacks unless they are thrown weapons.
First, Sohei CAN flurry with ranged weapons, that's kinda one of the points of the archetype. You can read back to the FAQs when the archetype came out, if you want.
Yes you can flurry with ranged weapons, but it then works like ranged weapons. The sohei just doesnt have specific language to deal with that. The zen archer did, and the original monk text didnt because in the core rules you dont have anything you can flurry with that you wouldnt normally add strength to (all melee or thrown weapons). You are exploiting an obvious gap in the language, but definately not using the intent of the rules. The flurry rule isnt meant to allow you to add strength to an attack you normally couldnt, it is meant to counter the normal two weapon fighting melee rules where you only get half strength on off hand attacks.
The build in the OP is basically just seeing how much things can bend. By RAW, It gets tripple DEX+STR to damage during a flurry. It's probably not optimal, but that was never the point, just to see how much it works.
I dont know the language of the trench fighter (dont have the archetype with me) but you only get one kind of gun training from the pistolero. So that is at most dex once, but I doubt its actually raw that the trench fighter and pistolero would stack.
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The Triple Dex to Damage probably doesn't work. It is the same thing 3 times. The Str. to damage doesn't work if you look at the whole sentence
A monk applies his full Strength bonus to his damage rolls for all successful attacks made with flurry of blows, whether the attacks are made with an off-hand or with a weapon wielded in both hands.
So unless a musket/pistol is a light weapon, it doesn't work (although I could see an argument that a musket is wielded in 2 hands, but still I wouldn't allow the cheese).
The 6 level requirement in Sohei to flurry with weapon training weapons seems to be the proper case of RAW, but this begs the question, could a Weapon Master3/Sohei6 flurry with a musket? and if the musket argument works as seem above, would Str. be added? Almost willing to bet No.
Wow, all this debate and nobody has asked whether or not the sohei could do this all in armor :)
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I'm... not sure how the part you quote changes anything I'm afraid. Could you explain?
Sure.
A Pistol is not an off-hand weapon (Unless you have 2 of them) or a weapon wielded in 2 hands. The Flurry of Blows says full strength is added whether made with an off-hand weapon or weapon wielded in 2 hands. Therefor, the way I read it, a Pistol is an exception to the rule (or an exception to the exception to the rule). So I do not entirely believe you would get Str. there (though honestly, it wouldn't be broken if you did)
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no he's correct in the literal reading of the flurry, it's just we all know that it's not meant to be used this way.
it's a RAW vs RAI thing, and with the clarity of the zen archer wording and other rules ie ranged weapon don't get str dmg normally we know flurry doesn't provide str through a pistol/gun/etc
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Okay, feel free to correct me here as I'm not a native speaker. "Whether" means something like "even if" or "despite" or something along the lines, right?
I am fairly sure you are correct, but Flurry doesn't have the same text for iteriative attacks or weapons wielded in one hand, therefor you, as far as I understand*, would resort to the normal rules for the weapon you wield. A.K.A. you don't get Strength bonus to damage when you flurry with a pistol. Now, a musket is a weapon wielded in 2 hands and would RAW get it, and if you had a 3rd arm from alchemist's vestigial arm discovery you could wield the pistol in 2 hands and get RAW strength to flurry.
*I very well could misunderstand this.
With the same kind of logic, multiclassing ranger 1/hateful rager barbarian 1 does not mean you need to perform a DC 20 Will save to attack another creature than your favored enemy while raging, because you don't have the hateful rager's "favored enemy" class feature which includes this specificity yet (despite it acting in any other way as the ranger's class feature).
Well, I think this example has me convinced.
Or you could simply get any other class and do more. in particularly you'd have a +1BAB from many other classes....
Well, when using Flurry, a monk treats their BAB as equal to character level, so the build is still full BAB when using the tactic it is designed for (Flurry with guns).
but the only benefit the monk class is adding is a single additional attack that causes all others to be at a -2, and if it's not a light weapon (which the case can be made, the penalty is even higher since it functions as if TWF)
Except you don't have to actually have two guns to flurry with it. Monks can flurry with just a single weapon.
Further I think Flurry works as the description, that is the penalty is always -2. There are light, one handed, and two handed monk weapons. And whether you are using one or two weapons, Flurry works as the description states (number of attacks gained and penalty is -2).
This build could flurry with just one pistol or one musket, but I don't see a problem with dual wielding pistols. You don't get extra attacks for having two of them while Flurrying, and the penalty should be the same.
though to get the full effect you'd have to invest 15 levels in monk for the full 3 extra flurry attacks (as well as the +1 from ki), but no benefit from rapid shot iirc--or was that just the zen archer that had that limitation?). and since youre using guns manyshot is out too.
juggling your gun/ranged feats and having to grab style feats WITH the prereqs (since sohei doesnt stack with MoMS, and you'd lose out on flurry, missing the whole point, and unarmed fighter only gets the close weapon group for WT, again, missing the point) might be a tad tricky to do and stay competitive.
then again you'd end up at 20th with ~8 attacks (~3 bab with all that dipping + 3 max flurry + 1 ki + 1 rapid shot if able), or 16 if youre going double-barrelled.
either way you'd need a REALLY reliable gun, since misfiring (which is generally 3-ish or more since everyone always uses paper cartridges) on any of them will halt your attack, and 2 in a row will nuke your face.
Well, Manyshot isn't an option for any ranged build that doesn't use a bow (any gun, crossbow, thrown weapon, etc). But there isn't any reason Rapid Shot wouldn't work that I can see.
Flurry doesn't really work that way. FAQ The Flurry FAQ says to add all BAB together (and monk BAB=monk level when flurrying) and then you get the number of extra attacks for your monk level (all attacks at -2).
Why would you worry about splitting your feats with Style feats? This is a build to use guns. Focus on that.
Yes, firearm Reliability will probably be an issue.
The number of attacks depends on the exact build. Lets see, we want: Dex to damage (one time is enough since it shouldn't stack), WT with guns, and as much flurry as possible.
Generic Gunslinger (5), Pistolero(5), Musket Master (5), and Trench Fighter (3) all get Dex to damage. Weapon Master and Fighter (including Trench Fighter) get WT at 3rd and 5th respectively. Sohei gets flurry as standard.
So the best build seems to be Trench Fighter 5/Sohei 15. BAB 16 (20 for Flurry), +3 attacks Flurry. Rapid shot and Ki extra shot. 9 shots while Flurrying.
Other builds could be..
Musket Master 5/Weapon Master 3/Sohei 12
BAB 17 (20 Flurry) but only two extra from Flurry (and Rapid Shot/Ki attack). 8 Shots with the musket.
Pistolero 5/Weapon Master 3/Sohei 12
If you can't get to Sohei 15 (which only a Trench Fighter build seems to do), then you don't need more than Sohei 8.
So Gunslinger 9/Weapon Master 3/Sohei 8.
BAB 18 (20 Flurry) with 2 extra from Flurry, 1 from Ki, 1 from Rapid Shot = 8 Shots.
Are you gonna pull those pistols or whistle Dixie?
Or just modify the Zen Archer to use firearms...
Wow, all this debate and nobody has asked whether or not the sohei could do this all in armor :)
Well, my personal opinion is that author statements of intent are not errata.
Since the Sohei replaces the Armor and Weapon proficiency of the normal Monk, and that is where the prohibition on using Flurry while armored is stated (not in the Flurry ability), then Sohei should be able to Flurry in their armor.
Actually, that makes a interesting idea for a build too. The previous builds have all been Grammaton Cleric, or Bulletproof Monk. This is more like Robocop or Judge Dredd.
Gun Tank 5/Weapon Master 3/Sohei 8/Hellknight Commander 4. Flurry with a pistol in full plate. I am the Law! Holy Gun Paladin could substitute for Hellknight.
Some other build ideas...
The Cowboy
Pistolero 5/Weapon Master 3/Luring Cavalier 4/Sohei 8
With Horse Master feat. Now Sohei has something to use Monastic Mount on.
A worker is known by his tools: a shovel for a man who digs; an ax for a woodsman. A gun is not a tool for peace.
--Caine
Here is another one I thought of from working on another thread.
Pistolero 5/Weapon Master 3/Sohei 8/Magus (Bladebound/Myrmidarch) 4 with a Sword Cane Pistol
Flurry with gunblade, as sword and gun! Mix and match melee and ranged attacks as needed. Deliver magic through your bullets.
A very anime/Devil May Cry type.