Douglas Muir 406 wrote: Good Stuff Actually I was only using arcane concordance for short term out of combat stuff like making invisibility longer for rogue and stuff- I like your idea better. I always forget about casting long term stuff the day before. I have a rod of extending anyway though as I'm using that out of class casting essentially everyday so far.
And yeah, I think the DM is internally debating the Blood Money thing. So far I've only used it a few times to keep it less abusable, that and I only have a 7 str. I had to buy pack mules to carry all my stuff...
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: {. . .}
Moto Muck wrote: {. . .}
Some useful spells I've found in addition to the tricks you've already laid out are- masterwork transformation/bless water with blood money and lesser restore for free money- just don't overdo it or the DM will squash it.
This gets into the Great Blood Money Debate, and I'm not going there today. But it will definitely get added to the Guide, perhaps with a pious "ask your DM" parenthetical.
{. . .}
Just realized that Archives of Nethys claims that Blood Money is PFS-legal. Weird . . . .
Also just realized that Blood Money has errors in the text on both Archives of Nethys and www.d20pfsrd.com. If they meant for each 500 gp or fraction thereof to cost 1 point of Strength damage as the examples indicate, they shouldn't have said "each full 50 gp". Also, the examples have an error in them -- 500 through 999 gp costs 2 points of Strength damage, but 1000 through 1500 gp costs 3 points of Strength damage. Depending upon exactly what they meant, it should be 501 gp through 1000 gp and 1001 gp through 1500 gp, respectively; or 500 gp through 999 gp and 1000 gp through 1499 gp, respectively.
Douglas Muir 406 wrote: Moto Muck wrote:
Some useful spells I've found in addition to the tricks you've already laid out are- masterwork transformation/bless water with blood money and lesser restore for free money- just don't overdo it or the DM will squash it.
This gets into the Great Blood Money Debate, and I'm not going there today. But it will definitely get added to the Guide, perhaps with a pious "ask your DM" parenthetical. Masterwork Transformation also has some use in combination with False Focus that is sometimes overlooked. Not an especially good profit margin(22.5 or 20 gp for artisans' or thieves' tools), but an extant one.
the Spell Sage is interesting but ultimately I think you trade more away than it is worth. I think it is another safe design that undershot the power curve intentionally.
Bonded Object(amulet) is a free top Spell Level spell {of RndDwn[(CL+1)/2] SplLvl} and allows purchasing/crafting at half cost an Aegis of Recovery(2d8+3 cure when you fall down) or Amulet of Spell Mastery(+6 spell levels). That is a bigger issue in PFS than a home game where the GM can cut you some breaks for taking this class.
The school ability you lose is (diviner) +Wiz/2 INIT bonus, acting in a surprise round, a std actn tch of +4 insight bonus to a d20 roll in the round say 7 times a day, and some other stuff about scrying and being scried, and ONE extra spell per castable spell level. Yeah...
Honestly, it really depends on you, your DM, and your campaign. But at high levels, I think the case for the Spell Sage is quite strong.
1) In a campaign full of 15 minute adventuring days -- I namechecked Kingmaker, but there are plenty of others -- the Spell Sage just shines. Something like 80% of the encounters in Kingmaker will normally end in half a dozen rounds or less, and then will allow you a day or more to rest and recover spells. So by midlevels, you never even get to use most of your spells, never mind your specialist class abilities. But you'll definitely use that +4 ECL!
2) If nobody's playing a cleric, trust me -- the party as a whole will be far better off with a Spell Sage than with a Diviner. Three days into the wilderness, you run into a bunch of wights: you want to stop the clock for a week so that you can limp back to town and then pay market rate for those Lesser Restorations?
3) If the campaign is information-intensive? I said the Spell Sage is a better Diviner than the Divination specialist, and that's literally true. The abilities that are lost by not being a Diviner are mostly combat-related, while what's gained is access to all the crazy informational spells of three other classes.
4) Note that the Spell Sage requires a DM who is willing to be pretty chill about you suddenly whipping out Riversight or Zone of Truth or something. Because honestly, this class can derail a DM's plots like no other. "The corpse lies in the middle of the clearing." "Can I use Speak With Dead to determine what happened here?" "Ha ha, no, its face has been smashed too badly to use that spell, sorry." "Huh. Okay, I'll just use Speak With Plants on the trees around the clearing and ask /them/ who the murderer was." "Wait, what?" "Yeah, and if that doesn't work I can just cast Blood Biography. You know about Blood Biography, right?"
Seriously, there are a crapton of weird divination spells that wizards don't normally have access to. Frickin' Insect Scouts is druid-only, and it's basically a "give me a map of the dungeon in advance". Riversight goes on for *miles*. And that's just divination! Wait until your DM tries to shipwreck you on an island and you pull out Flotsam Vessel.
5) As noted above, there's the whole crazy fun aspect of having a character that can explore ALL THE SPELLS. You're trading tactical flexibility (spell slots) for strategic flexibility (access to spells). It's almost the opposite of what a sorceror does, yeah?This is not everyone's cup of tea, to be sure. But players who like this seem to *really* like it.
Doug M.
Finally, I think you're making the mistake of looking at a Swiss Army Knife and saying "the power drill is better". Yes, it's better! until you have an ingrown toenail.
The Diviner and the other specialists get a handful of big bonuses or powers. The Spell Sage gets a bajillion little bonuses and powers. They tend to be one-shot, or small, or situational, or edge-case bonuses. But there are SO SO MANY of them. I mean, "get access to Scry two levels early" is NBD, I agree. But you also get access to about fifty other spells two levels early, including some real jewels like Hideous Laughter, Animate Dead, Suggestion and Dominate Person. You even get access to some spells -- like Plane Shift, Legend Lore, and Refuge -- *four* levels early. This adds up.
Meanwhile, many spells that are okay for others (Boneshatter, Create Undead) are good for you. Many spells that are good for others (Animate Dead) are amazing to the point of abuse for you. And you *always have access* to a shelf full of helpful utility spells. And you *always have access* to all the weird edge-case and situational spells that nobody ever takes. And you can throw weird combos like Contingency + Breath of Life or Contingency + Overwhelming Presence. (That last one is basically "cast a 9th level wizard spell as a free action".) It adds up, man. It adds up.
The Diviner gets to ponce around with his "woo look at my 20th level capstone ability I always win initiative then cast Time Stop". You know what the Spell Sage's capstone ability is? He can Gate in a frickin' Pit Fiend. Oh wait, that's not capstone, he's been able to do that from the moment he got access to Gate back at level 17. He can also cast True Resurrection and Miracle and all those crazy 9th level wide-area destruction druid spells like Storm of Vengeance and Sea of Dust and Tsunami and World Wave. Yes, a lot of these are edge-case and situational. But when they're good, they're very good. If you're playing a strategic level game -- like, say, the last modules of Kingmaker or Way of the Wicked -- being able to seal off your kingdom's borders with a two-mile wide zone of death is actually pretty sick. Invading army? Storm of Vengeance. High level enemy party? Well you *could* have a rocket tag high level fight scene. Or you could just Gate in a CR 24 Hekatonkheires and have him, you know, kill everybody for you.
Again, none of these abilities are individually game-bending. But if you add them all up? Cumulatively, they're pretty great.
Doug M.
Just got through looking at your guide. Thanks a ton, it was very helpful! I'm not actually going to play a spell sage, I'm preparing to play a wizard/loremaster that takes the new feat secret of magical discipline https://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/secret-of-magical-discipline/ that lets you spontaneously cast ANY spell. Whoever made this was high! And the best part is you get it with minimal investment too, which I feed sadly invalidates the spell sage quite a bit. You can even cast in combat also! Anyways, I was able to pick up a lot of spells and tricks from this guide, though obviously I'm gonna need to do a lot more work to play my character to the fullest. I'm gonna look at the psychic list next I think, but thanks again!
Wow okay, yes that feat is totally OP. True, you have to dip at least one level of Loremaster. But that does you almost no harm -- Loremaster doesn't cost you any caster levels -- and then you can take this feat multiple times and just, woo. So abusable. Just take this feat three or four times and you're basically a spontaneous caster with access to EVERY SPELL EVER PRINTED.
I didn't continue this guide past 3rd level spells (and because of the edition change, I probably never will). But there are a LOT of excellent spells that you can access with this feat at 4th level and higher.
Ah well. This feat came out in the very last 1e Player Companion. "Go out with a bang," indeed.
Doug M.
|
