Well, actually, you can take Weapon Focus with ray spells. So that might affect your reasoning.
As far as I understand yes, it does.
Yeah they follow the same rules. The ranged attack rules are for ranged attacks as a whole, not just weapons.
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Minor clarification
School conjuration (creation) [acid]; Level inquisitor 0, magus 0, sorcerer/wizard 0, summoner 0, witch 0
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect one missile of acid
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
DESCRIPTION
You fire a small orb of acid at the target. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack to hit your target. The orb deals 1d3 points of acid damage. This acid disappears after 1 round.
School evocation [cold]; Level magus 0, sorcerer/wizard 0
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S
EFFECT
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Effect ray
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance yes
DESCRIPTION
A ray of freezing air and ice projects from your pointing finger. You must succeed on a ranged touch attack with the ray to deal damage to a target. The ray deals 1d3 points of cold damage.
Not all ranged touch spells are rays. The effect section will say that.
That said, back to the OP's question. Although it is a spell, all attacks defined as ranged in some way (ranged touch attack vs. ranged attack) are affected by the ranged combat rules.
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I don't see what the problem is. We've established ranged touches as ranged weapons. If you're nitpicking "ray" then consider there are multiple different types of weapons, the ray given was an example. The whole point of the firing into melee penalty is to avoid hitting your friends. Why should throwing a glob of acid be any different than a ray of ice? I can't find the RAW, but RAI is very obvious.
Also, I was at GenCon, asked a couple people about the whole attack/damage thing you brought up, and here's what I got. Weapon damage things like inspire courage don't apply to damage, the attack bonuses apply. Point Blank Shot is a yes, as well as weapon soecialization. All things that modify a ranged attack roll modify them pretty much, damage roll is much harder. And all ranged touch spells can do sneak attack (provided e other sneak requirements are met) that wasn't even a question.
...Heroism gives damage?
If it helps clarify things, I've noticed that several NPC wizards from the NPC codex possess the feats Point-Blank shot, Precise Shot, and WF (ray). So at least that seems to confirm that ranged spells are subject to the benefits of these ranged feats.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/npcCodex/core/wizard.html
I understand both sides of the discussion, and would recommend house ruling whatever situation is best from your understanding of the rules and your play style. Just be consistent. My group has been gaming together since 1988 and we only play once a month. This kind of question has never come up. However, I understand how this may be important for Society play.
That being said, let's consider the spell Spectral Hand for sake of discussion.
This spell allows you to "deliver low-level, touch range spells at a distance", effectively making its attack a "ranged touch attack" like Acid Splash, at least as far as I understand...
However, Spectral Hand imparts a "+2 to the melee touch attack" (at range as I stated above). It does NOT say "reduces the standard penalty for a ranged attack at a target engaged in melee by 2". This is a big distinction.
My 2 coppers.
That being said, let's consider the spell Spectral Hand for sake of discussion.
This spell allows you to "deliver low-level, touch range spells at a distance", effectively making its attack a "ranged touch attack" like Acid Splash, at least as far as I understand...
However, Spectral Hand imparts a "+2 to the melee touch attack" (at range as I stated above). It does NOT say "reduces the standard penalty for a ranged attack at a target engaged in melee by 2". This is a big distinction.
Hmm...
Spectral Hand specifically states that it will impart "+2 to the melee touch attack", so what it delivers are melee touch attacks, not ray-like or splash-like ranged touch attacks.
Thus, the rules for 'firing into melee' would not apply in my book.
Same goes for things like spectral weapon, which usually delivers melee attacks, rather than ranged attacks No shooting into melee here, either.
Angel,
This is true; however, the melee touch attack is also specifically stated to occur at range.
Additionally, the hand does not attack on its own. The caster controls it, as evidenced by the fact that using the hand to deliver touch spells is a PCs attack action, "attacking with the hand counts normally as an attack."
This means the PC is controlling a melee touch attack at range, AKA ranged touch attack.
I fully understand your point of view, but I think a good argument can be made for the interpretation that I proposed.
I have seen some very shady manipulation and interpretation of rules to benefit a singular idea. I don't think we are in that territory. Perhaps that spell descriptor is worded poorly or I am just a dunce.
As a player, I would be fine with it going either way as long as I knew pre-character generation.
For what it's worth, I think Midnight_Angel's interpretation seems more correct. The rules for spectral hand specifically state 'a melee touch attack' while other spells use the term 'ranged touch attack'. Thematically, there's a difference between throwing stuff and controlling stuff and the wording in the rules seems to suggest the same.
I'm not arguing that you can't make a case for the 'it's all a ranged attack' interpretation, but I think it's more of a stretch than just assuming the (to me, at least) most logical version.
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Spectral Hand allows you to deliver a melee touch attack at range. Despite the fact that it is being delivered at range, the important part is that it acts as a melee touch attack and the range penalties only apply to ranged attacks. It's not a ranged attack, so no penalties.
Regardless, as to spells like Acid Splash and domain abilities like Fire Bolt, which are not rays (which is the OP's point), the ranged penalties should still apply. Acid Splash creates a dart of acid. Fire Bolt creates a bolt. Etc. The abilities create energy effects that act like weapons.
I can see where the argument is coming from, because these things aren't explicitly called out as "weapons" like rays are. However, I think the intent is clear that these types of penalties are intended to function for any and all types of ranged attacks, whether magical or otherwise.
Spectral Hand allows you to deliver a melee touch attack at range. Despite the fact that it is being delivered at range, the important part is that it acts as a melee touch attack and the range penalties only apply to ranged attacks. It's not a ranged attack, so no penalties.
Regardless, as to spells like Acid Splash and domain abilities like Fire Bolt, which are not rays (which is the OP's point), the ranged penalties should still apply. Acid Splash creates a dart of acid. Fire Bolt creates a bolt. Etc. The abilities create energy effects that act like weapons.
I can see where the argument is coming from, because these things aren't explicitly called out as "weapons" like rays are. However, I think the intent is clear that these types of penalties are intended to function for any and all types of ranged attacks, whether magical or otherwise.
If this is true, does that mean they also benefit from abilities/fears/traits/etc. that enhance ranged attacks?
If you're telling me that I take a penalty for shooting into ranged combat with non-ray ranged touch spells or class abilities that "fake" rays, why can't I then take Point Blank Shot to get a bonus? Or, even Precise Shot after that, to eliminate the -4?The issue here is consistency. I agree they are "weapons" and "rays" for the purpose of going into melee. But that means they get the benefits in addition to the penalties this description tacks on.
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When making ranged attack with spells you take into account all ranged penalties weather your using a longbow, hand crossbow, or rays.
Rays are effectivly classified as weapons. You can take weapon focus as well as weapon specialization and they should also be effected by Arcane Strike and Inspire Courage.
Note they only get bonus damage if they deal hit point damage. No +1 to your Enervation spells "damage."
Acid Splash states "Effect: one missile of acid".
Ray of Frost states "Effect: Ray"
If you apply any ranged penalties (besides range) to either, the bonuses should also apply.
I don't see why Precise Shot shouldn't apply. The bigger deal is the ranged attack firing into melee, not what is actually fired. I also wouldn't really care about having Point Blank apply, either. Doesn't matter to me.
Having "weapon" in the descriptions can create ambiguity, and it's certainly possible that this could go the way of Warslinger and they'd say that the inclusion of "weapon" was intentional (so things that aren't weapons don't count). But, if that's the case then the firing into melee penalty wouldn't apply either.
To me, it makes more sense to treat them all the same. There's no real functional difference between firing an actual dart into melee, firing a magical ray into melee, and firing a magical dart into melee.
I don't see why Precise Shot shouldn't apply. The bigger deal is the ranged attack firing into melee, not what is actually fired. I also wouldn't really care about having Point Blank apply, either. Doesn't matter to me.
Having "weapon" in the descriptions can create ambiguity, and it's certainly possible that this could go the way of Warslinger and they'd say that the inclusion of "weapon" was intentional (so things that aren't weapons don't count). But, if that's the case then the firing into melee penalty wouldn't apply either.
To me, it makes more sense to treat them all the same. There's no real functional difference between firing an actual dart into melee, firing a magical ray into melee, and firing a magical dart into melee.
I support this view. If my sorceror takes weapon focus(ray), it should apply to both Ray of Frost and Acid Splash.
Though, I'd check with your DM, as always, before trying this.| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Under firing into combat rules, it states "If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll."
Since spells like acid splash are not actually a weapon (Weapons being things you can take weapon focus in), then are they not subject to this -4 penalty?
Whether or not your attack is a "weapon," making a ranged attack at a target who is in melee with one of your allies means you take the –4 penalty.
Spectral Hand allows you to deliver a melee touch attack at range. Despite the fact that it is being delivered at range, the important part is that it acts as a melee touch attack and the range penalties only apply to ranged attacks. It's not a ranged attack, so no penalties.
A melee touch attack at range is a ranged touch attack.
Maybe I just can't wrap my head around it right now, but I liken it to you saying that making three left turns is not the same as making a right turn, or that a chicken breast that is grilled is not a grilled chicken breast.
Since the spellcaster is controlling the hand to make the attack, is it not like Telekinetic Fist of the Transmutation school, which is also a ranged touch attack?
But let's assume you are absolutely correct. Perhaps it is considered melee because the Spectral Hand itself has stats, and can be affected by the outside world as easily as any incorporeal creature can.
Whether or not your attack is a "weapon," making a ranged attack at a target who is in melee with one of your allies means you take the –4 penalty.Under firing into combat rules, it states "If you shoot or throw a ranged weapon at a target engaged in melee with a friendly character, you take a –4 penalty on your attack roll. "
Since spells like acid splash are not actually a weapon (Weapons being things you can take weapon focus in), then are they not subject to this -4 penalty?
Thanks for clarifying that part Sean! Sometimes in the rules it is hard to tell when things are meant to only affect physical weapons or if they apply to all attack rolls of a certain type.
While you're here, (and I don't mean this in a sarcastic way) could we also get your input on what sorts of spells can benefit from 'magical attack and damage buffs' that specifically enhance weapon attacks? The clarification that you made above implies that these sorts of 'buffs' do apply to spells, but I figure it is best to be sure. I'll list out a few examples for simplicity:
A: Do the attack and damage bonus' from Inspire Courage increase the attack and damage of ray spells such as Ray of Frost?
B: Do the attack and damage bonus' from Inspire Courage increase the attack and damage of non-ray touch attack spells such as Acid Splash? If the answer to A is no, then I would assume this is a no as well.
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I think that they both take the penalties but rays are different as regards bonuses. Lets look at some spells.
Acid Splash and Ray of Frost are both 0-level spells. Each do d3 damage. If acid splash was somehow immune to normal penalties for firing into melee, shouldn't it do less damage to balance it?
Ray's get bonuses from feats, I think, because they are typically less powerful than spells with saves and also because they can be specifically noted for their effect section: "ray." Ranged touch spells have a great deal more variety in their effects and would probably add confusion if bonuses were intended to apply to them.
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Matrix, I'd apply the bonus to any weapon-like spells, including spells where the caster has to make an attack roll to hit the target.
Matrix, I'd apply the bonus to any weapon-like spells, including spells where the caster has to make an attack roll to hit the target.
Thanks Sean! The fact that you said "I'd" seems to imply that this is what you'd do rather than an "official" ruling, but I'm sure this will be good enough for us to go with.
Personally, I like this way because just having the bonuses work on all attack rolls (and their damage rolls) makes things simpler than having to figure things out on a spell-by-spell and bonus-by-bonus basis.
I think Sean's answered everything, but to add a point, you can always take "weapon focus (missile of acid)" if you wanted to.
Ah that's true, I didn't think about the PFS side of things. Well, I'm hoping that word from a developer on this matter would be good enough for PFS even if it isn't being added to the FAQ/Errata section.
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Spectral Hand allows you to deliver a melee touch attack at range. Despite the fact that it is being delivered at range, the important part is that it acts as a melee touch attack and the range penalties only apply to ranged attacks. It's not a ranged attack, so no penalties.
A melee touch attack at range is a ranged touch attack.
Maybe I just can't wrap my head around it right now, but I liken it to you saying that making three left turns is not the same as making a right turn, or that a chicken breast that is grilled is not a grilled chicken breast.
Since the spellcaster is controlling the hand to make the attack, is it not like Telekinetic Fist of the Transmutation school, which is also a ranged touch attack?
But let's assume you are absolutely correct. Perhaps it is considered melee because the Spectral Hand itself has stats, and can be affected by the outside world as easily as any incorporeal creature can.
I can appreciate that it seems a little weird, but they are different. The attack is coming from the Spectral Hand, a thing that's actually entering into combat, etc. So, if that helps conceptualize it focus on the Hand, not the caster. It's a disembodied hand that actually goes out and touches the intended target, not some force effect being applied at range.
The short answer though is that the spell tells you that it makes a melee attack. It does not say you make a ranged touch attack. This is a weird little corner-case, so it does feel a bit odd. But, even if it doesn't really make sense, the language rules are clear - melee touch attacks (even when being controlled from a distance) are not the same as ranged touch attacks. If the ranged combat rules were intended to function here, the language should read "Spectral Hand allows you to deliver melee touch spells at range by making a ranged touch attack", or something similar.
Would the Spectral Hand provoke an AoO for it's melee touch attack?
I think what your running into with this ranged spell bit is this. We have the 3.5 rules presumably writted n and edited by numerous people. These rules were then efited by the paizo folks. This means really expecting everything to be worded exactly the same is probably expecting too much.
I kind of wish spells referenced univetsal rules clearly like monsters do. It. Would solve a fair bit of confusion.
Would the Spectral Hand provoke an AoO for it's melee touch attack?
I don't think so, because the hand would be considered to be making an 'armed' attack...
...Even though it is clearly 'un-armed'! or possible 'dis-armed'!
Thank you, I'll be here all week!
Would the Spectral Hand provoke an AoO for it's melee touch attack?Well...
Touch Attacks: Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity.Normal melee touch attacks don't provoke, so why should the Spectral Hand?
I ask because I read a thread somewhere that a fey sorceress' laughing touch ability provokes an AoA.....
Well the fey sorc laughing touch ability is a melle (sp) so it should provoke if you don't do it defensivly. The touch part isn't what provokes though.
Wow... re-reading that... every single one of the domain/bloodline touch powers provokes. Thats... asinine.
You mean that every single one that makes a ranged attack provokes, right? The melee touch attacks don't provoke.
Wow... re-reading that... every single one of the domain/bloodline touch powers provokes. Thats... asinine.Not entirely, only the ones that are ranged and ones that are spell-like abilities. Unfortunately you always provoke when attacking with a ranged weapon(point-blank master and similar abilities excepted), but supernatural abilities generally don't provoke unless otherwise noted, and spell-like abilities CAN be cast defensively.
Note, spell-like ranged attacks provoke twice. Once for casting and once for ranged attacking. Only the first can be avoided with a concentration check.
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Ok... so since this is something I have to be able to point to from you Sean or the PDT FAQ in order to use it in PFS, as some GMs have been applying the penalty for firing into melee, but not allowing us to get the bonus to damage for things like point blank shot, Inspire courage, etc.
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If a spell or ability requires an attack or ranged attack roll, even if it is not necessarily a ray, it takes the normal ranged attack penalties for firing into melee/cover, and also recieves any bonuses to damage that would apply (only applicable to hit point damage, not spells like enervation etc).
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Correct?
Yes, correct.
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Spectral Hand allows you to deliver a melee touch attack at range. Despite the fact that it is being delivered at range, the important part is that it acts as a melee touch attack and the range penalties only apply to ranged attacks. It's not a ranged attack, so no penalties.
A melee touch attack at range is a ranged touch attack.
Maybe I just can't wrap my head around it right now, but I liken it to you saying that making three left turns is not the same as making a right turn, or that a chicken breast that is grilled is not a grilled chicken breast.
Since the spellcaster is controlling the hand to make the attack, is it not like Telekinetic Fist of the Transmutation school, which is also a ranged touch attack?
But let's assume you are absolutely correct. Perhaps it is considered melee because the Spectral Hand itself has stats, and can be affected by the outside world as easily as any incorporeal creature can.
If I was going down a road and did take 3 turns on the left I would be surprised to end in the same location where I would get taking a single turn on the right. I suppose you mean turning while standing in the same spot.
While that it is a bit of banter, that difference is there in the ranged touch/spectral hand debate.Ranged touch attack: from here I fire my ray/acid glob/whatever.
Spectral hand: I move this item to location X (and it provoke AoO as it move) the when it is in location X it attack. At that point you don't have to correct your aim to account for the combatants movements as you aren't aiming at all. You are making a meele attack with your remote controlled drone.