Infinite Attack Loop?


Advice


Was helping a gent in a related thread, and came up with the following. Relevant rules are:
------------
FoeHammer: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/core-races/dwarf/foehammer-fighter-dwarf
Ki Throw: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ki-throw-combat
Improved Ki Throw: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/improved-ki-throw-combat
Bull Rush: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat#TOC-Bull-Rush
-------------

Simple Idea: What if I'm fighting two opponents?

Improved Ki Throw lets me bull rush Target 2 every time I trip Target 1.

By Bull Rush RAW, I can move with Target 2 as he gets knocked back.

FoeHammer's Hammer to the Ground let's me trip Target 2 (Even if he's already prone - it doesn't apply any new penalties, but it does...)

Allow me to Improved Ki Throw Target 1. And we're back to the beginning.

--------------

Eventually, I'll run out of movement to follow these throws, but that will be after like 6-ish cycles, I think. By that time, I can probably have put these two sorry bastards up against a wall.

Does this work by RAW?

--------------

Note: Obviously, this is a stupid thing to do in a game (though, tbh, the idea of repeatedly smashing Mook 1 into Mook 2 until they bleed out is freaking awesome). This is not a "LOL I BROKE TEH GAMEZ" post, just a "Hey, this is neat, does it work?" post.

-Cross


Well you'll run out of Attacks of Oppurtunity, and movement faster than you think. Then you're out of tricks for the day.


Claxon wrote:
Well you'll run out of Attacks of Oppurtunity, and movement faster than you think. Then you're out of tricks for the day.

So, here's the thing. Nothing in the combo uses attacks of opportunity. And each iteration only blows 5 feet of movement.

So, with a base 30 feet of movement (and it ain't hard to get that higher), I could go through this 6 times. Hasted, 12 times.

-----------

Nobody has a reason why, RAW, this won't work? Because it means that, every round, I get to put as many AoOs on a target as I can, as well as being able to trade my ki points for guaranteed hits through something like Enhanced Ki Throw.

-Cross


I'm at a loss for why this wouldnt work.

May Asmodeus help us all...

Liberty's Edge

You cannot trip a creature that is already prone.


Do you have a rules quote for that?


Also, ki throw is only with unarmed strikes, how are you using it with your hammer?

EDIT: Sorry I just assumed you would be using a hammer, you can do this unarmed too, that is funny

Silver Crusade

How do you trip someone that is already prone?


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Assuming you can keep making Trip checks, it looks like this would work for putting your two special friends anywhere you want on the battlefield. But you'll need Greater Trip to unleash AoOs.


Tempestorm wrote:

How do you trip someone that is already prone?

The only pseudo-official thing we can get here is Buhlmann:

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l0rq&page=3?TripLocking-Doesnt-Work-Offici al-Ruling-or-Not#110

"You can use your AoO to trip a creature that is standing up from prone, but it has no effect, since the AoO is resolved before the action is completed, meaning that the creature is still prone. Once the AoO resolves, the creature would stand up normally."

Says that you CAN trip a creature that is standing up from prone, and it happens before, so you can trip somebody who is still prone.

There was some 3.5 errata saying that you can't trip while prone. But I believe, pathfinder RAW, it's legitimate.

-Cross


RJGrady wrote:
Assuming you can keep making Trip checks, it looks like this would work for putting your two special friends anywhere you want on the battlefield. But you'll need Greater Trip to unleash AoOs.

Vicious Stomp, Enhanced Ki Throw, and Greater Trip will all work for putting a boatload of free AoOs on these guys. But the point is really that I can just gleeeeefully keep moving these guys wherever I want on the battlefield...

BY SMASHING THEM INTO ONE ANOTHER FOREVER.

(hahaha.)

-Cross

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

A trip, by definition, renders something prone.

If something is already prone, by definition you cannot make them prone, more prone, or prone again. They have to stand up to be tripped again. This, among other reasons, is why you can't trip serpentine creatures and oozes. They are effectively already on the ground.

Thus, your combo stops working. However...

Point 2: It's a good mook clearing device, since you could work your way through a crowd, slamming 1 into 2 into 3 into 4 into 5. Who needs whirlwind attack? You can plow right through the mooks on the way to the BBEG, and they might not even slow you down. Behind you, you leave a big gaping hole for the rest of the party.

It's like great cleave, but tossing bodies.

Hope you've got an awesome trip mod!

==Aelryinth

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I vew rules disputes through a very KISS mechanic. If a rule has more than one possible interputation I go with the one that isn't silly. Tripping someone that is prone is silly.

Multiple Piazo folks have said that attempting to trip someone that is prone has no effect.


Prone is a condition. Until the condition is removed, in this case, successfully standing from prone, further applications of the Trip combat maneuver have no effect (as per JB's quote above). You'd have to allow each target to stand from prone in order to knock them prone again with any other effect (unsure of Foe Hammer, checking semantics...)


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

James Jacobs has said that, barring whatever you consider "common sense" exceptions, you can't trip a prone person.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2lz17?Can-you-trip-a-prone-person#27


So, common sense does indeed prevail.

JB says a re-trip attempt against someone who is prone on the inflicted AoO has no effect.

JJ says you cannot trip a person who is prone (with certain exceptions, see EDIT below).

They are, of course, correct, and here's the rule that backs them up:

PRD, Conditions wrote:
If more than one condition affects a character, apply them all. If effects can't combine, apply the most severe effect.

So, in the case of Trip, it applies the prone condition. You cannot combine prone with prone (because it is a singular, one-time, static effect with a singular, one-time, static solution), so you "apply the most severe effect", which is the character remaining prone.

Any condition remains until removed or until specific mechanics are applied. For Trip to be resolved, it requires the person to stand up from prone, provoking an AoO. And, as JB says, you can't successfully re-trip someone standing from prone with that AoO because they are still prone until that "standing from prone" successfully resolves the condition. It has "no effect". Therefore the trip fails because the condition it would apply already exists, and the effects cannot combine per the PRD rules quoted above.

EDIT: James Jacobs has said that the Ki Throw line is a separate animal from his standard "You can't trip a prone person" quote, and even cites Ki Throws as an exception to that rule later in that same thread.

I think I get what JJ is trying to say here. His original quote that says you can’t trip a prone person (barring common sense exceptions) was talking about regular trip mechanics.

Ki throw technically requires a successful trip, per the semantics, but I think what he’s saying is that RAI might consider Ki Throw an exception to the rule.

For example, you’re not really TRIPPING the person, you’re THROWING them (which is why he’s saying don’t get pedantic with the semantics of the mechanic) (and yes, I rhymed all that on purpose) using the trip mechanic as an “activator” if you will.

Whether someone is standing or prone, it’s not a great stretch of reality to assume that someone with training in Ki Throw and Imp Ki Throw can pick a person up and hurl them whatever distance they can under those mechanics. In this particular example, it wouldn’t especially matter if that person was standing or prone, as mechanically you are really only RE-APPLYING the prone condition in a different square.

Given this, I might have to reverse my thinking on this one and agree with JJ. RAW and RAI make this a DM's call. Table variance for interpretation applies. At my table, I think I would allow it because of the feats invested. My original stance on the matter is hereby redacted.


A 7 feat investment (earliest by level 6?) (Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Throw, Improved Ki Throw)
Then more if you want to get into Combat Reflexes, Greater Trip and/or Vicious Stomp for AoO action.
Lots of focus, but an interesting mental image! =)

I'd rebut with this however:
Although Improved Ki Throw does allow you to push 2 back with 1... I'm not sure if you'd be able to move along with them, simply because I don't think you can occupy another opponents space (even if they are prone).

You're basicaly going from (X = pc):

1X2
to:
X12

and then wanting to move into 1 to trip 2.

(If you fail to push 2 back, 1 ends up in an free adjacent square instead... and if 1 cannot occupy 2's space... it seems that you should not be able to occupy 1's space either.)

You can't use the Overrun rules, as that's a different action... Bull Rush does have some rulings about pushing opponents into other opponents, but you're not doing that...

<shrug>

Addendum: Going back to the Hammer To The Ground ability, if you don't move with the bull rushed opponent, you can still do the trip at a -5, so perhaps it does still work to that point... but then you're no longer adjacent, so not sure how you'd resolve a Ki Throw at that point!
Though the text seems to indicate its the hammer blow causing the trip, so perhaps Ki Throw wouldn't work due to it not being unarmed.

Also, keeping track of your unarmed bonus and hammer bonus for the maneuvers would be onerous. Would giving a hammer the Ki Focus weapon enchantment allow it to work with Ki Throw? (it'd work for the stunning fist feat, and Ki Throw has Ki in the title even, so seems ok)


So, EvilMinion, this is something I'm not like, super sure of. How the eff does the knockback on improved ki throw work? Couldn't we do this?

0 = empty space
1 = Mook 1
2 = Mook 2
X = PC

1200
0X00
0000

Couldn't I throw minion 1 into minion 2, knocking him away from minion 1 (right?), as follows?

0120
0X00
0000

Or, if that was the initial condition, throw minion 1 into minion 2 and follow it by moving to the right, as such?

0012
00X0
0000

The "Can I follow through the knockback" bit is the flakiest part of this psuedo-nonsense (Hey, I admit what I'm doing...), along with "Can I trip a prone person? Does it still count as tripping if it has no effect?"

I'd love if somebody could explain how the knockback on Improved Ki Throw is supposed to work.

-Cross

Dark Archive

This all very well and good, but it will get old really quick. Especialky for the other people in your game. Also once the GM gets tired of this, he start having the bad guys be In the position for this to work. Therefore would be a huge waste of feats for the rest of that career. So i am sure this intellectual conversation at most.

Dark Archive

I've always had GMs rule that a tripped target is not eligible for retripping. Otherwise my character would Greater Trip - Vicious Stomp for attacks until he used all 9 of his attacks of opportunity. If they're not on their legs, you can't trip them.


Titania, the Summer Queen wrote:
This all very well and good, but it will get old really quick. Especialky for the other people in your game. Also once the GM gets tired of this, he start having the bad guys be In the position for this to work. Therefore would be a huge waste of feats for the rest of that career. So i am sure this intellectual conversation at most.

Also, I'm going down a hammer-based PRC and using unarmed attacks. This is a terrible, crappy build. It is entirely an intellectual question as to whether or not one can cheerily do attacks until you run out of movement/AoOs.

The questions that remain sort of unanswered are:

1.) Bull Rush allows you to attempt to move with somebody when you bull rush them. Improved Ki Throw allows you to bull rush people by throwing other dudes into them - do you still get to move with them?

2.) Can you make a trip action on somebody who is prone? Developers have clearly stated that it doesn't _accomplish_ anything, because it results in them (shocker) remaining prone. But is that sufficient to trigger Ki Throw, given that the trip attack itself was successful?

3.) How does the knockback work on Improved Ki Throw?

-Cross

Dark Archive

1. If you can follow up on a normal bull rush, then yes its still a bull rush.

2. If trip happens as part of an action that just includes it, i would say it still works.


Would you be able to use a Ki Focus weapon to do this too?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abil ities/ki-focus

Because then you can grab a shield, take Felling Smash, Shield Slam, and Power attack and have even more lulz with this. (Trips and Bullrushes everywhere!)

Would be a fun build to play, imo.


HNNNNNNG wrote:

Would you be able to use a Ki Focus weapon to do this too?

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abil ities/ki-focus

Because then you can grab a shield, take Felling Smash, Shield Slam, and Power attack and have even more lulz with this. (Trips and Bullrushes everywhere!)

Would be a fun build to play, imo.

Doesn't appear as if Ki throw counts for Ki Focus.

-Cross

Dark Archive

I'd like a ruling, as stupid as it sounds, on tripping tripped. No combo is really needed to make this something people would want to do a lot; after all, just greater trip and you get to turn one of your attacks in for an AOO from everyone around, yourself included. Throw in vicious stomp and you can actually use 1 attack to take a number of attacks = your AOOs / 2.

I know no home GM would allow a tripped person to be eligible for tripping; the question is PFS and such.


Crosswind wrote:

So, EvilMinion, this is something I'm not like, super sure of. How the eff does the knockback on improved ki throw work? Couldn't we do this?

0 = empty space
1 = Mook 1
2 = Mook 2
X = PC

1200
0X00
0000

Couldn't I throw minion 1 into minion 2, knocking him away from minion 1 (right?), as follows?

0120
0X00
0000

Or, if that was the initial condition, throw minion 1 into minion 2 and follow it by moving to the right, as such?

0012
00X0
0000

The "Can I follow through the knockback" bit is the flakiest part of this psuedo-nonsense (Hey, I admit what I'm doing...), along with "Can I trip a prone person? Does it still count as tripping if it has no effect?"

I'd love if somebody could explain how the knockback on Improved Ki Throw is supposed to work.

You can't ignore the Bull Rush rules.

They explicitly push the target in a straight line away from you. If you want to start moving things left and right, you are talking a reposition combat maneuver not bull rush (and repositioning doesn't allow you to move along with)

So none of your examples is a bull rush.


EvilMinion wrote:

You can't ignore the Bull Rush rules.
They explicitly push the target in a straight line away from you. If you want to start moving things left and right, you are talking a reposition combat maneuver not bull rush (and repositioning doesn't allow you to move along with)

So none of your examples is a bull rush.

Ok, so, we could do:

0000
0120
00X0

And the bull rush would send (2) to
0020
01X0
0000

And then I could use Ki Throw to put (2)

0000
01X0
0200

Bull rush (1)

0000
1X00
0200

Ki Throw (1)

0000
0X00
1200

Bull Rush (2)

0000
0X00
1200

...hrm. I can move people up-left as much as I want, but I cannot seem to get them in a circle. Eventually, I will hit a wall.

-Cross


I think ultimately this kind of thing just makes me say "So what?". If you're not making attacks that do damage all you're doing is moving a couple of opponents about the field. Nothing by itself thats particularly useful. Now, if you have allies in the right position that might get some AoO, but ultimately I think this is just a gimmick that isn't much of a big deal.

Not to mention the whole tripping someone who is already tripped issue.


Crosswind wrote:
EvilMinion wrote:

You can't ignore the Bull Rush rules.
They explicitly push the target in a straight line away from you. If you want to start moving things left and right, you are talking a reposition combat maneuver not bull rush (and repositioning doesn't allow you to move along with)

So none of your examples is a bull rush.

Ok, so, we could do:

0000
0120
00X0

And the bull rush would send (2) to
0020
01X0
0000

And then I could use Ki Throw to put (2)

0000
01X0
0200

Bull rush (1)

0000
1X00
0200

Ki Throw (1)

0000
0X00
1200

Bull Rush (2)

0000
0X00
1200

...hrm. I can move people up-left as much as I want, but I cannot seem to get them in a circle. Eventually, I will hit a wall.

-Cross

That's not right, you're ignoring the Improved Ki Throw requirement that the tripped opponent be dumped into the bull rushed opponents space... dropping them adjacent will not then allow a free bull rush as part of the action.

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