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Chasing the Philosopher's Stone: N. Jolly's guide to the Pathfinder Alchemist


Advice

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Silver Crusade

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Seeing as there was a lack of guides for the Alchemist, I've decided to take it upon myself create a new one.

N.Jolly's Guide to Alchemical Genius
N.Jolly's Guide to Alchemical Genius

I'm not getting much input on the thread, so I'd like to see if I can crowd source here to see if anyone here has anything they'd like to add.


Is confusion bomb really no save?


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Would you consider publishing that as a Google Document, or a simple HTML page? The way it's currently published, with everything behind spoiler tags, makes it fairly unusable.


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Gnomes is red ??

+1 Level for Bomb damage that deal fire damage
and 1/2 bombs per level. Seams not so bad ...

Breiti


N. Jolly wrote:

Seeing as there was a lack of guides for the Alchemist, I've decided to take it upon myself create a new one.

N.Jolly's Guide to Alchemical Genius

I'm not getting much input on the thread, so I'd like to see if I can crowd source here to see if anyone here has anything they'd like to add.

I am playing a Gunslinger grenadier - waiting for the explosive missile discovery.

Remember an alchemist gets to add his int mod to damage when he is throwing any splash weapons (alchemists fire and so on).

Silver Crusade

@CWheezy: As listed, it's no save, just a decrease in damage. Just barely not purple, but you can live without it.

@Blueluck: I don't really see how it's unusable, it's just organized. I did actually try to start with a google doc at first, but seeing as I'm not too tech savvy, I wasn't sure how to set it up. Maybe I'll talk to someone else who does know how to do it later and have them help me.

@Breiti: I'll admit I overlooked that. Still, they have terrible racial adjustments for it. I suppose those bonuses could push them up to orange for everyone who's not Hyde though.

@The 8th Dwarf: Grenadier is one of my fave archetypes for the class, it gives so much. I already have the splash damage thing listed, but thanks for the reminder.

Just did a minor change in formatting, a bit more exploration into Hyde (Controlling and Brutal), and am about to finish off Ultimate Combat's feats before I move on to traits.


Overall I think this guide is pretty great, thanks for all the advice man!


If you are still working on the guide, poisons are a nice focal point for alchemist. They get alchemy at a faster rate, and the poison discoveries are nice. Sticky poison and concentrate poison are nice.

Silver Crusade

Just finished off the UC feats as well as traits.

@CWheezy: Thanks, I'm hoping to have this done before Otakon.

@Grizzly: I have poisoner in the sub roles right now, as it's not a main occupation of either main role. I'm avoiding ranking the sub roles though since they're more a matter of play style though. But poison sadly doesn't scale well, so it's hard to think of a way to make it work.

Right now I'm wondering if there's any more sub roles I should consider, possibly a "Scary Hyde" section as well.

If anyone has any suggestions, feel free to suggest them. Also if I forgot something that you thought should be in the guide, please give me a source so I can put it in.


N. Jolly wrote:
@Blueluck: I don't really see how it's unusable, it's just organized. I did actually try to start with a google doc at first, but seeing as I'm not too tech savvy, I wasn't sure how to set it up. Maybe I'll talk to someone else who does know how to do it later and have them help me.

Maybe "unusable" was a bit harsh. With everything on another forum behind spoiler tags, the guide isn't easily searchable. Also, I can't make a copy for my own use, make edits, or copy/paste without losing important formatting.

Grand Lodge

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I take a few issues with it..

1) Preserve Organs - Its not just light fort. You can, though be it by spending 3 discoveries, get to heavy fortification for a 75% crit resistance that doesn't require you to wear armor and continues to function in anti-magic fields.

2) Lingering Spirit - This can really make or break weather a character lives or dies. Endurance/Diehard help really use it, but you also don't die when you reach 0 con like everyone else does. And you missed the next ones that pair well with Lingering Spirit

3) Spontaneous healing -5 extra hp per 2 levels. with healing touch it becomes 5 extra hp per level. In a manner of speaking of course. if you go below 0 hp, it auto kicks in and heals you until you are not below 0 hp. Best of all.. This ability to heal is EX.

All of these, mummification, and internal alchemist can really add up together. And Bodyguard/In harms way is very good with all of this as well. You can become very meaty for those two feats. Only reason my character died was that he was being used as a mount, flying, 200 feat into the air and suddenly lost the ability to fly. Its the fall that killed me, as I took the critical bite from the dragon, lost my ability to fly for one round, took full falling damage, then the falling damage of the guy I was carrying as well. Just 2 more hp and i would have lived!


Is there a way to get pounce before beast shape II extract for a Hyde alchemist?


OP, interesting timing. Several of us on GITP had been attempting to make a newer Alchemist guide recently. Though that effort seems to have gone silent lately...

Blueluck wrote:
Would you consider publishing that as a Google Document, or a simple HTML page? The way it's currently published, with everything behind spoiler tags, makes it fairly unusable.

I find it just the opposite. Google docs gives me loading errors all the freaking time and even crashes. The spoiler tags are elegant and make it much faster to scroll through to a section you want. I vastly prefer guides posted in threads.


Espy Kismet wrote:

I take a few issues with it..

1) Preserve Organs - Its not just light fort. You can, though be it by spending 3 discoveries, get to heavy fortification for a 75% crit resistance that doesn't require you to wear armor and continues to function in anti-magic fields.

2) Lingering Spirit - This can really make or break weather a character lives or dies. Endurance/Diehard help really use it, but you also don't die when you reach 0 con like everyone else does. And you missed the next ones that pair well with Lingering Spirit

3) Spontaneous healing -5 extra hp per 2 levels. with healing touch it becomes 5 extra hp per level. In a manner of speaking of course. if you go below 0 hp, it auto kicks in and heals you until you are not below 0 hp. Best of all.. This ability to heal is EX.

All of these, mummification, and internal alchemist can really add up together. And Bodyguard/In harms way is very good with all of this as well. You can become very meaty for those two feats. Only reason my character died was that he was being used as a mount, flying, 200 feat into the air and suddenly lost the ability to fly. Its the fall that killed me, as I took the critical bite from the dragon, lost my ability to fly for one round, took full falling damage, then the falling damage of the guy I was carrying as well. Just 2 more hp and i would have lived!

I will agree that these have really helped my alchemist. He has managed to keep his other combatants alive, himself alive, and Lingering Spirit (when you're going Hyde focused) can keep you from dying when you take a heavy hit. And I will DEFINITELY second Preserve Organs. Even taking it twice means that half the time, a crit is going to just end us as a regular attack. That's a big advantage.

Also, fortification really doesn't stack (even when you buy it). So why buy it when the item can break or you can be caught without armor, when you can have it with you permanently?

And as far as Malignant Poison? Buying Dragon Bile and suddenly it becomes a 6 round DC 30 poison. And, as far as I'm reading, Concentrate Poison stacks with it, so....

Vestigal Arm can definitely get to Blue if you can get one of the demon talon. Expensive? Yes. Useful? No doubt.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Worth noting that the Alchemist is immune to Poison Bombs by the time he has access to them. Sit in Cloudkills all day and breathe deep :3


With the internal alchemist addition, quite often when the DM asks me for a Fortitude roll, I respond with "Is it poison or disease?" "Yes...." "Then I'm immune." That is usually followed by a long string of expletives that just aren't forum friendly.

Grand Lodge

ShadowyFox wrote:
With the internal alchemist addition, quite often when the DM asks me for a Fortitude roll, I respond with "Is it poison or disease?" "Yes...." "Then I'm immune." That is usually followed by a long string of expletives that just aren't forum friendly.

My DM ended up resorting to making everything magical curses instead of diseases/poisons. Was rather annoying finally getting that feature and then not being able to use it because 'oh this is a super magical poison plant. It doesn't do poison, it does curses though. Cause its evil.' or some such.

We talked it out and he finally agreed to stop doing that.


Good thing he did. That'd cause a mutiny.

Silver Crusade

@Espy: 1. I'm not a fan of spending class features on things I can buy with money. Having it be non magical isn't that big a boost, since I don't see people flinging around AMFs most of the time.

2. I mentioned the synergy between L. Spirit and Diehard, although it really only takes full effect if you're taking the Deathless Initiate and Master Feats so that you're not staggered at the time. The below 0 con thing is helpful, but if you're helpless from being at 0 con, you're pretty easy to kill.

3. How did I miss those discoveries? Added them, as I think they're better for Hyde. Honestly I don't really feel like the Alchemist will ever be a great tank (maybe Hyde) which is why the Bodyguard feats were so low, but I suppose if you were to go a bit more MAD, you could pull a decent enough con score to make it viable.

@Vazt: Not from what I've seen, but if I find a way, I'll put it in the guide.

@Stream: Ha, I didn't even see that before I started mine. Seems like a lot of people working on it, must be fun. I hit you up on GITP about assisting in my guide, since it'd be nice to have more than one person on it.

Just finished the feats, and the first and second level extracts, although I feel like multiclassing an archetypes is going to be a stumbling block for me. Thanks for the advice all, keep it coming!

Grand Lodge

Well, increased damage you can buy with money as well.

Its more than Anti-magic. Now that its a class feature, you can't ever be denied it. It functions when you're in a shower. It functions when you're a dragon. It functions when you're sleeping.

It also saves you +5 on your armor. At bare minimum for heavy fort, you'd need 32,000 gp + whatever your armor is. to get a +1 heavy fort armor. While you could be heavy fort by level 4.

Being able to live at 0 con is better than not. and Unless you're going around trying to be Sparky Mcsolopants, you /should/ have a party with you to stop enemies from coup de gracing you. Then with the 75% immunity with crit hits, even if they did, it would only work 25% of the time.

You don't have to be MAD to have a high con score. You've got mutagens, infusions and the like to stop that. You can become immune to poisons, diseases, cold, non-leathal, and whatever else you wanna drink up.

Also, not spending that money on your armor, you can spend it on more important things. Like those alchemist items that let you prepare two infusions into one. Or the ones that act like refillable potion bottles. Those are very helpful. Or clones, etc.

Silver Crusade

You can buy damage boost, but you can't buy discoveries. Using gold on things you can buy continues to be a bad idea to me.

I just can't validate 3 discoveries for something I could buy, even if it's unable to be taken from you. I honestly only like going up to medium fortification, but if you're willing to use 2 discoveries and a feat to be nearly critproof, that's your call even if it feels a bit too paranoid for my taste.

Also if something's dropping you to 0 con, it can probably take you to -5. I think you're putting too much value on fortification, but the vibe I'm getting more and more is Alchemist are fragile.

I myself would be using my money to boost my offences, although what item are you talking about that lets you prepare two extracts in one?

Sub roles are updated, as well as 3/4th level extracts.

Grand Lodge

Adamixture Vial

Largest problem I've had with my alchemist is prep time in combat. This cuts down on a lot of it.


Espy Kismet wrote:

Adamixture Vial

Largest problem I've had with my alchemist is prep time in combat. This cuts down on a lot of it.

...Yeah. Maybe I'm too much of a pessimist, but I don't like it when my moderately expensive magic item is made out of glass... All of my alchemist's extracts and mutagens are kept in iron flasks for a reason.

Grand Lodge

StreamOfTheSky wrote:
Espy Kismet wrote:

Adamixture Vial

Largest problem I've had with my alchemist is prep time in combat. This cuts down on a lot of it.

...Yeah. Maybe I'm too much of a pessimist, but I don't like it when my moderately expensive magic item is made out of glass... All of my alchemist's extracts and mutagens are kept in iron flasks for a reason.

Put the Moderately expensive magic item in an iron flask. :P

Scarab Sages

When you get high enough - Delayed Consumption + Universal Formula = any lvl 3 extract as an immediate action... I think that is an okay use...

Scarab Sages

btw, a very nice guide. You pointed me on to a couple of feats that weren't on my radar which I'm now trying to squeeze into my next alchemist. :)

The Exchange

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Very good guide.

Quick side coding question. I like the spoilers. They help find what I'm looking for, but is there a code enabling closure of the tab from the bottom when it's open? This would help scrolling through.

So here is my recent and lovable Snoodle McDoodle's shopping wishlist

Sipping Jacket for 5K:
Absorbent fibers line this heavy canvas coat.

Once per day as a standard action, the wearer can pour a potion onto this lining, suffusing it into the coat. If the potion has an instantaneous duration, the wearer can activate the coat as a swift action to consume the potion. If the potion’s duration is measured in rounds, the wearer can activate the coat as a swift action to gain the potion’s benefits for 1 round, repeating as desired each round until the potion’s entire duration has been used. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. The coat absorbs only potions with instantaneous or round-based durations, and only those which affect creatures (for example, it does not work on oils). Once the coat absorbs a potion, the potion cannot be retrieved from it, only used as described above. The absorbed potion loses its powers after 24 hours, even if unused.

For someone trying to rapidly buff themselves in an unexpected combat this has some action economy.

Poisoner's Gloves for 5k:
These black, rubbery gloves have sharpened digits. Fine channels lead to the tip of each finger, which are often stained with foul chemicals. The gloves are used primarily by assassins to deliver poisons while in combat.

Each glove may be filled with a single dose of poison, a potion, alchemist infusion, holy water, or similar liquid as long as the liquid would not harm the gloves (for example, alchemist’s fire and acid cannot be used). The wearer can deliver the dose to a target as a melee touch attack or as part of an unarmed strike or natural attack with the hands (such as a claw or slam attack). The wearer can use both gloves in the same round using two-weapon fighting or multiple natural attacks (such as 2 slams or 2 claws). Each glove can be used once per day. Filling a glove is a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

Another action economy item is you're buffing someone else or if your buffing yourself. I'll take the TWF penalty to melee touch attack myself to give myself an infusion.

Admixture Vial for 5k:
Once per day, an alchemist can use this simple-looking glass vial to combine two extracts into one usable extract as if he had the combine extracts discovery. An admixture vial can combine extracts of 3rd level or lower. Extracts combined with an admixture vial cannot be combined again using this item or the combine extracts discovery.

Already stated that this is awesome

Boro Beads for Price of PoP:
This multicolored, sturdy glass bead is an aid to members of the alchemist class. Once per day on command, a boro bead enables the bearer to recharge any one extract that he had mixed and then consumed that day. The extract is then reconstituted and usable again, just as if it had not been drank. The extract must be of a particular level, depending on the bead. Different beads exist for recalling one extract per day of each level from 1st through 6th. A bead works on an infusion, but not a potion, elixir, bomb, mutagen, or non-magical alchemical material such as antitoxin.

Nice! Pearls of Power.

Preserving Flasks for price of PoP:
This small, durable flask is designed to preserve alchemical extracts indefinitely. An extract stored in a preserving flask remains potent until it is consumed or otherwise removed from the flask.

Preserved extracts count against an alchemist's extracts per day on the day they are prepared, but not on subsequent days. Each flask is capable of preserving an extract of a particular level. An extract stored in the flask retains duration, caster level, and other properties it had when it was created. The flask works on extracts and infusions, but not mutagens.

Let's combine this with the Admixture Vial. While its limited to keeping the extracts to the same level, I think you can still come up with some useful combos.

Formula Alembic for 200:
This magically-augmented alchemical device distills a potion or alchemist extract into the knowledge needed to create its formula. By gently heating a potion or extract in the alembic for 1 hour, the device creates a few drops of magical liquid. If consumed by an alchemist, this liquid gives him knowledge of the potion's or extract's formula, as if it were an extract he recorded in his formula book. This knowledge lasts for 24 hours. He may scribe this formula in his formula book in the normal fashion.

Using the alembic does not harm the potion, but the process makes it nearly boiling hot (it cools normally). The alembic can only distill the knowledge of formulas on the alchemist extract list (for example, it cannot turn a potion of a cleric-only spell into something an alchemist can learn).

Cheap way to add to your formula book.

Hybridization Funnel for 200:
This two-spouted funnel is used to safely mix two alchemical splash weapons into a single flask. Using the vial requires 10 minutes and a DC 25 Craft (alchemy) check; a half-elf has a +5 bonus on this check. Failing the check means both splash weapon are destroyed. Success means the two materials are safely mixed into one vial that is the same volume as a normal splash weapon vial; when thrown as a splash weapon, the mixture has the effects of both component substances and creatures are affected as if hit by both. The mixture becomes inert after 24 hours. Only liquids may be mixed with the funnel. The bearer can use it to mix an alchemical splash weapon with either holy water or unholy water, but the Craft (alchemy) DC increases to 30; half-elves still get the +5 bonus on this check. The funnel does not work on potions, elixirs, extracts, or other materials. Mixing a substance with a similar or identical substance (such as alchemist's fire with alchemist's fire) has no effect. A mixture cannot be combined with another mixture.

Makes a great combo with Grenadier's Alchemical Weapon & Explosive Missile Discovery. Additionally, this could be combined with Arcane Strike, which I figured out after reading your awesome guide. It's a one good hit when combined with the right infusion can be even better. It's also almost an auto success with how quickly the Alchemist's Craft skill goes up.

Edit: Grammar Fixes

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Another tip for using Poison Bomb with a team of meleers that aren't immune to poison (assuming you have magic mart/crafting)

Ioun Stones (Cracked Gamboge Nodule) give immunity to one kind of poison for 1,500gp. I suggest choosing Cloudkill.

Silver Crusade

@Espy and Stream: I have a Shatter happy GM who considers Alchemist weak BECAUSE they have glass vials, so metal flask are easily the way that I'd go for anything volatile.

@John: While it's a nice combo, there's few third level extracts that I'd rather have than a 4th level one. Although it's just another use of Delay Extract's crazy level of usefulness. And thanks, I've learned a lot making this guide, so it's worth a look to find new things to use. Let me know if there's any feats you think I should add.

@The Todd: High five on the list, bro. A lot of these were unknown to me, so they'll be a great help to the guide.

@Petty: Didn't know about that Ioun Stone, that could be useful, but sadly poison is generally a pretty quickly resisted thing, so it lowers the use, as well as Cloudkill being a moving spell.

Extracts are done, does anyone have suggestions for what they'd like to see done next? If I don't get any in an hour or so, I'll just go ahead and work on multiclass stuff.


Ablative Barrier is actually one of the best second level spells, especially for a melee alchemist.

Example:
Say you have are level 6 with 40 hp and a con of 10. You get hit 4 times for 60 damage. Without ablative barrier you are dead at -20. With Ablative Barrier, you are alive and unconscious with 0 hp and 20 non-lethal.

It also has a huge 1 hour per cl duration and all healing heals non-lethal and lethal equally. So if a cleric heals you for 15 hp, you are up with 15 hp and 5 non-lethal damage and barring a 30+ damage crit you can still take at least 2 shots before dying.

The spell also provides some protection against any damaging spell with an attack roll, like rays or touch attacks.

Did I mention the spell lasts 6 hours at this level?

It's a great spell

Grand Lodge

N. Jolly wrote:

@Espy and Stream: I have a Shatter happy GM who considers Alchemist weak BECAUSE they have glass vials, so metal flask are easily the way that I'd go for anything volatile.

Shatter doesn't work against magical items~

And for your shatter happy DM, I'd happily make a shatter based sorcerer. So eviliy so. Buut, thats not this thread.

Silver Crusade

@Kender: I guess I didn't notice the duration, it seems like a decent spell for keeping you alive. I'll be sure to chance its rating accordingly, as I still don't think it's incredible compared to others.

@Espy: Well I'll be a monkey's father's brother.

Multiclassing section is up, next is a quick jaunt to Prestige Classes, as so little offer the Alchemist anything.


N. Jolly wrote:
Multiclassing section is up, next is a quick jaunt to Prestige Classes, as so little offer the Alchemist anything.

I'm keen to see you write about the Archetypes. Great guide so far.


Hey jolly, I know that alchemical allocation is good, but I am not sure what potions are the best to buy!

It is pfs, so I buy stuff at minimum caster level, and I am a ranged bomber focused on disables.

I guess it doesn't matter that much, since I can share them with my allies because of infusion, but I would like your opinion anyway!

Silver Crusade

@c873788: Glad to see you like it so far, it's been a labor of love.

@CWheezy: I think I'll probably put a list of potions in the magic items that are worth abusing, but that'll be in a little bit.

Non Racial Discoveries are up, thanks for the support everyone, just need the racial ones before I can move on.


Potions for Alchemical Allocation:

Cure Serious Wounds, Fly and Heroism are the obvious candidates, but anything that provides either long term buffs or out of combat utility is golden.
Regarding elixirs, I only use the elixir of vision upon entering the dungeon, but any of the skill boosters are worth buying just in case. They're dirt cheap after all.


Alchemical Allocation is much less useful if you can't get higher than minimum CL potions. Getting higher CL effects early is a major draw for it, and being limited to min. CL on items that only go up to spell level 3 anyway means they'll quickly become jokes to dispel.

Some good choices:

- Greater Magic Fang, preferably CL 20
- Stoneskin (level 3 for Summoners; preferably at least CL 15)
- Strongjaw (level 3 for Rangers)
- Greater Invisibility (level 3 for Summoners)
- Elixer of Shadewalking (wondrous item; 11 hours of Shadow Walk for the whole party)
- Dimension Door (level 3 for Summoners)
- Protection from Energy
- Burrow

And just in general, snagging maxed out CL benefits at much lower levels, like a CL 12+ potion of barkskin, a CL 11+ potion of resist energy, etc...

I think the take away lesson is that Alchemists love having Summoner friends.

Silver Crusade

Racial archeytpes are up, as well as a blurb about Vivimorph.

Also added a section in the introduction giving a bit more insight into the difference between extracts and spells, although if anyone has anything they think needs to be added, let me know.

I think I'm going to work on either weapons or alchemical items next, as a large portion of me is dreading doing magical items.

Also any suggestions for an opening picture and quote would be appreciated, as I'm mostly just leaning towards making it an FMA pic/quote, seeing as that's an awesome show.

Grand Lodge

Well with internal alchemist - You might be giving up throw anything, So I wouldn't ever never ever take it with a bomb based one, but Vivisectionist I've found it to be good with.

I mean there is the beastmorph, but I personally don't like the reduced duration (By that I mean you don't get the extended duration of hours per level)

Asiamar and Strix are probably pretty awesome races for a bomber type, cause they /could/ fly and bomb the snot out of everything. I'd personally go with Strix myself as a mad bomber.

Now, I know that Bombs go after touch ac and all that, but I'd think if you're doing a stealth bomber build, that you'd be trying to use your maximum range possible... Actually that would be pretty scary for a group of adventurers. A flying, invisible alchemist hurling bombs at a pretty good distance away.


Yeah, Internal is decent for a Viv. Alchemist, especially a dex-based one (uncanny dodge). It just sucks it conflicts w/ Beastmorph. But... I don't think Beastmorph is worth it before level 6 (flight), and the flight isn't technically needed thanks to Wings discovery, it's just nice to have, so Beastmorph really comes into its own at 10 (pounce). I think for low level games, Internal is at least as good a pairing for a Viv. as Beastmorph, if not better.

Just a shame you have to choose...

Silver Crusade

@Espy: I might rate some more races later, although Aasimar only gets wings much later. Strix would be solid though, so again I might put it up later.

@Stream: The only thing I feel like you're getting out of the Internal Alchemist package is Uncanny Dodge. I myself like Throw Anything too much as a low level damage enhancer to give it up. That might just be me being too attached to it though, but that's my decision to make.

Alchemical Items are up, weapons will be next. Although I did take Stream's advice and cut down on a few of the feats/traits that weren't important. I'm thinking of putting another section for Feats and Traits of note (Finding Haleem comes to mind.)


You should add splash mastery in the feat section. It is awesome for bombers.

I also think you are under estimating mind chemist or perhaps overestimating grenadier. Especially in pfs I've never been upset I went with mind chemist. At level 5 my Int gotl me +12 to knowledges and +16 once I drink my cognitigen.

The whole idea of attacking Ac makes grenadier less effective than they may seem at first glance. Alchemist items are a lot better with a massive Int that bombers should have.

Silver Crusade

I'll probably add another section for feats that were suggested, as the same feat got suggested on the other thread.

I did improved Mind Chemist to Blue for Mad Bombers. For everyone else, it's a weak choice. I can't even see using the Cognatogen for the intelligence boost without bombing. They are nice bonuses to skills, but the Alchemist doesn't have enough skills to make this great without burning some traits on extras.

And I don't think I'm overestimating the Grenadier, as there is so much potential for debuffers. Alchemical Weapon is such a great ability for what you can combine with it, and by rules it can combine with a bomb as well(bombs are listed as a weapon in their description), especially using Hybridization Funnel to smash 2 items onto a weapon instead of one. Honestly I'd consider making that ability Purple if it weren't for the fact that you have to work to make it good. Hell, combine it with a Raining Arrow filled with a different material and you've got 3 debuffs in one. The only issue with that is the expense of it all.

While you're still a moderate BAB class, a Grenadier Mad Bomber probably still has quite the suite of ranged feats (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, etc) which work as well with bombs as they do with arrows, and you still have a Mutagen to give you a +4 to dexterity to make sure you're hitting.

I have a great love for the Grenadier as they are the heart of a debuff build, which I might list in sub roles in a bit. But only with ranged weapons, as melee weapons spread out their strengths too thin to be effective characters (although they still do provide some pretty nice benefits regardless.)

Mundane weapons and armor are done, next are magical ones, and then finally magical items (groan.)


N. Jolly wrote:


And I don't think I'm overestimating the Grenadier, as there is so much potential for debuffers. Alchemical Weapon is such a great ability for what you can combine with it, and by rules it can combine with a bomb as well(bombs are listed as a weapon in their description), especially using Hybridization Funnel to smash 2 items onto a weapon instead of one. Honestly I'd consider making that ability Purple if it weren't for the fact that you have to work to make it good. Hell, combine it with a Raining Arrow filled with a different material and you've got 3 debuffs in one. The only issue with that is the expense of it all.

While you're still a moderate BAB class, a Grenadier Mad Bomber probably still has quite the suite of ranged feats (Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot, etc) which work as well with bombs as they do with arrows, and you still have a Mutagen to give you a +4 to dexterity to make sure you're hitting.

I have a great love for the Grenadier as they are the heart of a debuff build, which I might list in sub roles in a bit. But only with ranged weapons, as melee weapons spread out their strengths too thin to be effective characters (although they still do provide some pretty nice benefits regardless.)

Alchemical weapon had a lot of various readings. DPR-wise, it could be arrow+str+ bomb+int+acid flask+int, or simply arrow+str+bomb+acid flask. The first is awesome and the second sucks dpr-wise, given you're going against AC and not touch. Ac is typically at least 5 higher to hit, with difference growing as you level. Even at low levels, that means debuffing builds need at least +5 to hit to make the chances even with a straight bomber thrower. Maybe you're get another 2 or so from not taking range penalties, but that still means you'll be hitting less than a non-achetyped bomber and therefore debuffing less consistently. They can do debuff at greater range however.

With that said, not all bombers need to hit the creature itself, at low levels at least. Stink bomb for example.

The splash damage itself strongly changes the dpr calculations for aiming at a target. For example, an acid flask with a cognatogen does 1d6+8 for my level 5 mind chemist. I two hand them most of the time and attack at around 30-50 feet, giving me a -5 to -7 to hit and typically another -4 for cover, so I've got a +3 to+5 to hit a 10-15 or have the thing land 3 squares away doing 0 damage. Or I can hit the square intersection at AC 5 for 8 damage as long as I don't roll a 1. Typically my DPR lowers when I aim at things, which is sad.

Silver Crusade

Furious Kender wrote:

Alchemical weapon had a lot of various readings. DPR-wise, it could be arrow+str+ bomb+int+acid flask+int, or simply arrow+str+bomb+acid flask. The first is awesome and the second sucks dpr-wise, given you're going against AC and not touch. Ac is typically at least 5 higher to hit, with difference growing as you level. Even at low levels, that means debuffing builds need at least +5 to hit to make the chances even with a straight bomber thrower. Maybe you're get another 2 or so from not taking range penalties, but that still means you'll be hitting less than a non-achetyped bomber and therefore debuffing less consistently. They can do debuff at greater range however.

With that said, not all bombers need to hit the creature itself, at low levels at least. Stink bomb for example.

The splash damage itself strongly changes the dpr calculations for aiming at a target. For example, an acid flask with a cognatogen does 1d6+8 for my level 5 mind chemist. I two hand them most of the time and attack at around 30-50 feet, giving me a -5 to -7 to hit and typically another -4 for cover, so I've got a +3 to+5 to hit a 10-15 or have the thing land 3 squares away doing 0 damage. Or I can hit the square intersection at AC 5 for 8 damage as long as I don't roll a 1. Typically my DPR lowers when I aim at things, which is sad.

Honestly, I mostly use it myself to put a tanglefoot bag on my bomb to hit the opponent with a -2 to AC and attacks as well as the speed drop. As for how Alchemical Weapon interacts with splash weapon and damage, I assume it only applied once. I honestly think AW is best for debuffing, but it's also very nice for damage.

And if you're having that big an issue with range, I'd seriously invest in a few Bomb Launchers.

Bombers do have a lot of utility with their bombs, such as with stink bombs like you mentioned. But I don't see Alchemist as huge damage dealers (B. Hyde excluded); I see them as doing moderate damage with other effects. Although your situation makes me want to look for more ways to avoid cover and range penalties.

It sounds like your games have a lot more hurdles to overcome in hitting targets, unlike mine where I've generally had pretty lined up shots. Hitting something on a moderate BAB with the possibility of buffing your accuracy doesn't seem like such a hard thing to me, so that may be one of the reasons I like the Grenadier so much.

Redid my review of the Master Chymist, as well as the magical weapon enchantments.

Grand Lodge

Another thing with the ratfolk bomber.. You could get burrow. Getting that and delayed bombs You could be under ground a lot and place the bombs like mines.


Can you combine alchemical weapon with explosive missile?

Silver Crusade

Espy Kimet wrote:
Another thing with the ratfolk bomber.. You could get burrow. Getting that and delayed bombs You could be under ground a lot and place the bombs like mines.

That is pretty creative, but Ratfolk are already Blue and I don't think this bumps them up at all. I'd put this into the inherent flexibility of Delay Bomb, which is something I think needs to be tapped into in order to get the full value from the discovery.

The 8th Dwarf wrote:
Can you combine alchemical weapon with explosive missile?

I see no reason why not, none of them conflict in anyway action wise. It's one of the reasons from level 4-7, I really like Explosive Missile. Sadly it drops on in value once you get Bast Bombs, but it's still nice utility if you've got it attached to a longbow so you can use it at a range. If there was some wording to eventually make it able to fast attack just like Fast Bombs (Possibly a home brew discovery or change to the ability), it would retain value far better.

Did some more pruning, and might be doing sample builds. If so, please try to use the terminology I've set forth (Generalist, Mad Bomber, Mr. (B/C) Hyde) in your build, and try to throw in a sub role as well.

Grand Lodge

You forgot the flask thrower and Launching Crossbow.

While these too don't seem to give much to bomb builds.. It can significantly increase your range, and adds enhancement bonuses to the ammo and the like.

You could also use Focused Shot adding your Int modifier twice to the damage with a launching crossbow. Definitely get some of the more advance feats for it though.

So you could technically do quite a bit, since a bomb becomes an ammo in the launching crossbow.. or some silly such. Lots of bonuses. Though I don't know how much you could add.

The Exchange

I saw the tangle shot ammunition on the weapons list. This effectively increases your touch attack range to 55ft at the loss of arrow damage. I see no reason why bombs wouldn't stack on it either. That great for early levels.

Snoodle McDoodle, my Alchemist, just got Explosive Missle at 4th. I ussually start combat with a Hybridized Alchemical Weapon Explosive Missle. Now with the tangle arrow it'll,be touch and as soon as I get a sipping shirt it'll be double INT from Admixture as a swift.

Snoodle like to make things go BOOM!

Edit: Oh yeah and if you wanna throw bombs underwater, underwater crossbow. Situational but you never know.

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