Goblin Squad Member
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I understand why people are upset they can not play their preferred class from the start of EE.
Yet i feel the urge to point out the transparency and honesty of Goblinworks in their dealings with the community.
For example, "the guys with the star wars mmo" would just tell their customers [insert feature here] will be implemented at [insert time here]. By the time the deadline expires, they not even react to complaints of their customers.
This is the way they handle things in "this star wars mmo". I am so sick of being lied to, i appreciate the honesty of Goblinworks.
Instead of focusing on the cons, i propose focusing on the pros: you will be able to play from the start, work with the devs, shape the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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No one in life is perfect, so why should your characters be? Most famous D&D characters (Elminster, Drizzt, etc.) are multiclassed. Elminster was a fighter and a thief before he was a wizard. Perhaps think of this as an opportunity to have some of the most flavourful characters in the game instead of the most powerful (which you can still be if you play it from the start because there will be no wipe).
Gandalf can swing a sword just fine!
Another couple footnotes for those who are scared to death that they won't be the most optimized primed toon in Golarion:
We are basically play testing in EE. So EVERYBODY will end up with points in trees that get nerfed and EVERYONe will experiment with combos that end up useless as they go up in levels.
Also, who said that Dwarf Fighters and Elf wizards get everything they want? I don't see battle axe as confirmed for day 1. Who said all 8 wizard schools will be available? Or how many Gods? Or if we can level stealth on day 1? From hearing Ryan Dancey talk, you'd think we will have player housing before we have stealth.
You know, it is possible to just make the character and keep them at around first level while they accumulate XP. Sure, it's a pain, but at least it means you can start taking levels in Druid as soon as it becomes an option.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Would it resolve most of the complaints if there were tags indicating which feats would boost devotion for non-implemented archetypes and which abilities would violate devotion? (assuming that at least some skills would count as devotional for more than one archetype; channel energy for clerics and paladins; rapid shot for fighters and rangers, wrath guard for fighters, barbarians, paladins &tc.)
Like I said in my review of the issue, if GW can tell us from the start what skills we would be training for TBI (to be implemented) archetypes anyway then training up those skills feels less likely you're wasting time (literally) training skills you'll never make use of. There are still two weaknesses to it:
1.) Beta is beta. Archetype trees are likely to change but in ways we don't know at this stage. This applies for the starting four archetypes also; retaining the possibility for anyone of personally useless skill points purely because beta is beta.
2.) Running out of skills to train that you want. This leads to beta testers sitting on their xp for potentially over a year instead of, you know, testing things with it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2.) Running out of skills to train that will be in your eventual archetype. This leads to beta testers sitting on their xp for potentially over a year instead of, you know, testing things with it.
Or how about:
3.) People actually embrace the open leveling system and create their own archetypes. You know, like the system begs you to do? I'm starting to like the idea of Turn Undead on my undead-favored-enemy Ranger.
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Goblin Squad Member
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2.) Running out of skills to train that will be in your eventual archetype. This leads to beta testers sitting on their xp for potentially over a year instead of, you know, testing things with it
If you want to play a ranged focused Ranger, just build an archer Fighter and you're about 80% of the way there. Once Ranger gets made available you could be up to speed on being a Ranger pretty quickly (around 20-30% of the time you spent buying Fighter).
2.5 years to typical King Archetype (not counting other skills you could train to augment later or on the way). That is 30 months.
Archetype skills being only 20-30% of amount needed. Say 30%. That is 21 months to train from non archetype specific skills.
EE guestimated at 18 months.
There could be some problems for "way out" implementation, but not so much that it really matters except to the super competitive. Still a long way from EE to problems that are gimping.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm very grateful to Ryan & GW for being SO open about what's going to be happening. I also relish the idea of being able to help BUILD this wonderful game world in which we all will play. Like several people have already talked about, this is a new way of making an MMO...it's a "Work in Progress" approach in which you are an active participant. Not the standard Beta tester like we've all been through before. So we really need to shift our mental paradigm away from the old "Beta Tester" mentality...and try to embrace the new concept of actually building the game.
I understand that some people are worried that they will be "disadvantaged" by their "Class" not being available on day one of EE. Some have already offered very good advice...look at this as a journey for your character. With this new way of developing an MMO you aren't going to be able to step right in and mathematicly determine what the best possible combination of skills and feats will be so that you can pursue that perfect blueprint with draconian efficiency. You have to relax and just play the game. Experiment and have fun. Give informative feed back and participate in a community trying to build the game we all want.
Also...regarding "Classes"...if you really think about it, there are actually only 4 core classes. As other's have stated, the remaining classes can be construed as simply variations on a theme of those four. Since this is supposed to be a classless game...focusing on skills instead "Classes" would probably be a good idea.
Just my two farthings
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Korvak: I fully agree.
I think this blog was very important to clarify to the community what we can expect at the very early stages. Everyone likes to dream but a reality check is useful once in a while. I am very happy to see the honesty and transparency in the communication between the devs and the community.
For me, the prospect of being able to help shape the game at such an early stage as without all the base races, classes and features is just mind-blowing and makes me hell-bent on trying to get into EE even more.
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Goblin Squad Member
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We discussed the PvP question a bit in last night's Teamspeak chat (again: shameless plug for more people to join us! MUCH less acrimonious and more productive than lobbing blocks of text back and forth, especially on issues with deeply passionate adherents and detractors). Surprisingly, I (a non-PvPer) was of the opinion that it would be present from the start, while both Hobs and ZenPagan thought it would be implemented later, as otherwise it might lead to widespread perceived abuse and general lack of productive day-one testing. Also, having only the single settlement indicates no alignment restrictions and probably no flags. Thoughts?
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Goblin Squad Member
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Probably just me confusing the territory warfare with general PvP. I still wouldn't be surprised if PvP wasn't a system that makes it into day one of EE.
Well, sieges might be a while:
The process of establishing a siege is lengthy and can be attempted only by the largest and best organized groups of players. Siege warfare is therefore the province of player settlements and kingdoms. [...]
Building a settlement requires massive amounts of resources and extensive amounts of time.
The features of a settlement are varied and warrant their own separate dev blog. Since we do not expect the first player settlements to be introduced into the game until well after launch, we'll reserve those details for now.
What's the point in having e.g. catapults in the game before you have city walls to shoot at?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I understand why people are upset they can not play their preferred class from the start of EE.
Yet i feel the urge to point out the transparency and honesty of Goblinworks in their dealings with the community.
For example, "the guys with the star wars mmo" would just tell their customers [insert feature here] will be implemented at [insert time here]. By the time the deadline expires, they not even react to complaints of their customers.
This is the way they handle things in "this star wars mmo". I am so sick of being lied to, i appreciate the honesty of Goblinworks.
Instead of focusing on the cons, i propose focusing on the pros: you will be able to play from the start, work with the devs, shape the game.
In general I agree, and I have the outmost appreciation for Goblinworks so far!
But let's not forget they had declared a 9 month EE and now it is doubled. Also, it is still a paid beta, so I guess people can ask for extra features while paying to help "the seed to grow"@Nihimon
Yep, I know I can "keep" my paid time to start closer to Open Enrollment, but I am really looking forward for this game -as I guess is the case for all of us here :) (not to mention the time "lost" in character development)
But still, 18 months of paid beta with few game features is a long time to ask for a normal subscription in my opinion
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Darth
What is really cool is that we have so much time before EE to fret over it...
hehe you are right :)
and please don't get me wrong - I'm THRILLED with the whole process and the neuterism of the community (us) actively helping shape this game as it grows.I'm just a bit worried that people may drop out after the first months because of the reasons I've mentioned (Not me - I've already pre-paid 14 months after I read the blog :) )
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Goblin Squad Member
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No one in life is perfect, so why should your characters be? Most famous D&D characters (Elminster, Drizzt, etc.) are multiclassed. Elminster was a fighter and a thief before he was a wizard. Perhaps think of this as an opportunity to have some of the most flavourful characters in the game instead of the most powerful (which you can still be if you play it from the start because there will be no wipe).Gandalf can swing a sword just fine!
Another couple footnotes for those who are scared to death that they won't be the most optimized primed toon in Golarion:
We are basically play testing in EE. So EVERYBODY will end up with points in trees that get nerfed and EVERYONe will experiment with combos that end up useless as they go up in levels.
Also, who said that Dwarf Fighters and Elf wizards get everything they want? I don't see battle axe as confirmed for day 1. Who said all 8 wizard schools will be available? Or how many Gods? Or if we can level stealth on day 1? From hearing Ryan Dancey talk, you'd think we will have player housing before we have stealth.
How incredibly insulting. I'm asking for ONE respec so I can play the character ROLE I want, and that means I'm a min-maxer?
All I'm asking is that I don't have to throw away my Destiny's Twin character, or two years of play, because the concept I want to play most won't be available. It has NOTHING to do with some imaginary "optimized build" and it is insulting that you, and others, keep dodging my actual concerns.
A single re-spec is a pretty little thing to ask for, and I think my reasoning is sound. Goblinworks being transparent with us is commendable, but has nothing to do with this.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Darth - It's possibly a consequence of the investment raised. GW seems to have done exceptionally well to raise the approx. 5-8m$ and that could be why EE is over a longer period of time; another few mil might have reduced EE I guess? In some ways it's possibly a better result anyway, a longer EE in the longer run I mean growth too fast it might go further away from pathfinder faster than the original players like... etc etc. I think main thing (at least my preference) is fast access to EE. :)
@Drakhan - I think the flags must be a core system of player interaction and that includes pvp heavily so I'd expect beta to start with it and develop it over time. It would seem penalties will be at a max. setting and the devs will tinker with it as the players interact with it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@theStormWeaver
Apologies if anything that I posted offends anyone. That is not my intent.
My concerns about respecing:
1: How easy will it be for GW? Will they have to just wipe your PC, let you keep your name, and credit your exp back?
2: How much programming or hands on will that take for 72,000 + EEers by the end?
3: How many will cry if they have to re earn merit badges, etc...? Will they expect GW to go through and credit those too?
4: Will all new players, after OE starts, expect the same?
5: Why, if most skills (70%+) are general shared skills, is it necessary?
I have more concerns but I am drunk, high on heroin, and robbing a bank right now. Too busy.
@Bringslite...you shouldn't get drunk it is bad for you
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Goblin Squad Member
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For anyone complaining about the schedule, you really shouldn't. Each blog entry, even the ones that have changed, have more info than Blizzard has released about Titan, and Titan has been in the news (sort of) for three years or more. I applaud GW's openness. They are taking a big risk putting so much information on the table. You probably haven't seen this much transparency from any other company, especially a start up. Give the programmers and developers a break while they build a brand new world. I think it'll be pretty damn cool once it starts to open up. And think of the bonuses....early backers get to help develop the entire thing!
That's a cool perk all by itself! :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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Respecs will be completely unnecessary and counter to the game design if I understand the system. The designers don't owe us anything and the fact that they're this up-front about the design is amazing. A respec is completely absurd to ask for since it would be a one-off and therefore a waste of the resources they have.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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Hi everyone - lots of comments to make. Bear with me!
Conditions for Adding Roles: It's not just animations. There's an art component, and that's meaningful. But there's also a design component. It will take time to ensure that we're happy with the balance and flow of the "basic" class features. That's part of Crowdforging. We need some space between when various roles go into the game for testing and evaluation. We also need time to do development on the way features get implemented. Monks, for example, aren't just "fighters who use their fists". They're characters with extremely complex features.
Respecs for race: I think its reasonable to expect that we'll allow players to switch a character to a new race when a new race is added. It's mostly harmless from a mechanical standpoint. That doesn't mean you can switch to each race as its added - it means you should be able to switch once to a new race.
Respects for class: In general, I'm not in favor of doing this. It creates all sorts of problems, especially during Crowdforging. Some people will feel there's an obligation to make every XP they spend 100% perfect vs. their ideal build as we add new features; the min-max issues are extraordinary. Rather than creating a bunch of false impressions or expectations I'd rather just say that we're not respeccing for new Roles and that what we encourage you to do is play interesting characters with the content in the game, or wait until such time as the role you want to play is implemented before you activate your account. That ensures nobody is given a false expectation of some kind of future conversion or upgrade right that doesn't exist. Early Enrollment is going to be incredibly constrained in terms of how many players will be added monthly and there will be a lot of people waiting in line so if you choose not to use your game time until the role you want to play is available it won't hurt the business.
Implementing all of the Core Rulebook before we begin monetization: We can't. We can't wait that long to begin generating revenue. Either we begin on the timeline we've outlined or we will not be able to fund development of the game. If given the choice between not doing the game, and doing the game in a way where all the Core Rulebook content is added over time, I choose to do the game. I understand completely if you don't want to play until all the Core Rulebook classes and roles are in the game, and we'll be happy to see you activate your account when we reach that milestone. It's a tradeoff, and we're making it with knowledge that the tradeoff is not what others might choose to do.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I understand why people are upset they can not play their preferred class from the start of EE.
Yet i feel the urge to point out the transparency and honesty of Goblinworks in their dealings with the community.
For example, "the guys with the star wars mmo" would just tell their customers [insert feature here] will be implemented at [insert time here]. By the time the deadline expires, they not even react to complaints of their customers.
This is the way they handle things in "this star wars mmo". I am so sick of being lied to, i appreciate the honesty of Goblinworks.
Instead of focusing on the cons, i propose focusing on the pros: you will be able to play from the start, work with the devs, shape the game.
The first Star Wars MMO, or the recent one? From connect, I'm thinking you mean the recent one, but the first one had some pretty legendary bad management decisions, too. Great game, poorly handled.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'll add my thanks for transparency and clarity from an MMO studio.
I think people need to remember, too, that not everyone who plays in the first month of EE will still be playing at OE, or a year down the line, or five years down the line. There will be a few, but even they won't be the equivalent of Level 250 WOW characters (I know, that's not the level cap now. If WOW's still around 5 years after OE, it could be by then.) This isn't to say that PFO will be a bad game, just that few people stick with any MMO for that many years.
The power curve is intended to be relatively flat, and even someone who starts a fighter on day one of EE and plays continuously for five years won't be able to curbstomp a new character effortlessly. Don't worry about getting behind quite so much, nobody will have a perfect path to an "optimized" character, in all likelihood.
Long character development, new system without known "optimal" paths, systems that will probably change on us and render some of our early choices less "optimal" than we thought they would be. Getting in at the beginning won't automatically make EE players gods walking Golarion when OE starts.
Play when you want. Don't worry about min-maxing. Have a little fun.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed on the Transparency. Thank you for being brutally honest with us on this, My Dancey, so we're all working from the same page.
And attack animations do take a lot of time. Assuming there's 1-hander (Medium) attack animation, there's also the following animations that can modify or even replace that animation, depending upon the actions taken, including 1-hander (Critical), 1-hander (Blocked), 1-hander (Parried), 1-hanger (Parry), 1-hander (Miss) ... and that's just for the Human males.
Double that for different genders, then you're stacking on the other races ...
And that's just for the main-hand attacks. That's not including Dual-Wielding, Blocking with a Shield, Double-Weapons like the Quarterstaff and Sickle-And-Chain.
Then there's spell-casting animations, archery and the different positions/stances we might adopt to take advantage of the local terrain ...
Starting from the ground up with just the basics gives Goblinworks a broad and stable position to add to and tweak to make the game as good as they can.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The first Star Wars MMO, or the recent one? From connect, I'm thinking you mean the recent one, but the first one had some pretty legendary bad management decisions, too. Great game, poorly handled.I understand why people are upset they can not play their preferred class from the start of EE.
Yet i feel the urge to point out the transparency and honesty of Goblinworks in their dealings with the community.
For example, "the guys with the star wars mmo" would just tell their customers [insert feature here] will be implemented at [insert time here]. By the time the deadline expires, they not even react to complaints of their customers.
This is the way they handle things in "this star wars mmo". I am so sick of being lied to, i appreciate the honesty of Goblinworks.
Instead of focusing on the cons, i propose focusing on the pros: you will be able to play from the start, work with the devs, shape the game.
Please read "connect" as "context".
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Goblin Squad Member
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I always get goosebumps reading these updates and threads.... Can't wait until the forfillment opens up for us who missed the kickstarter. Nothing would please me more than be there for Pathfinder from the start.
I don't like the general watered down direction MMO's are heading and Pathfinder is a shimmering hope off in the distence.
Also props to the develipers for being so active in responding to the community! It does add a lot to my enthusiasm about the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just now read the blog. Thank you a lot for the info. I always thought having an idea of what the minimum configuration will be is very useful.
I am also very pleased to hear specifically stated that this will start sloooooooooooooooooooooow but grow constantly and that the business plan is to match.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hi everyone - lots of comments to make. Bear with me!
Conditions for Adding Roles:
Respecs for race:
Respects for class:
Implementing all of the Core Rulebook...
It is always a great benefit to have an explanation of why we can not have something we want presented in a transparent and well reasoned statement. On all four points you did just that.
Thank you Ryan.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Please read "connect" as "context".The first Star Wars MMO, or the recent one? From connect, I'm thinking you mean the recent one, but the first one had some pretty legendary bad management decisions, too. Great game, poorly handled.I understand why people are upset they can not play their preferred class from the start of EE.
Yet i feel the urge to point out the transparency and honesty of Goblinworks in their dealings with the community.
For example, "the guys with the star wars mmo" would just tell their customers [insert feature here] will be implemented at [insert time here]. By the time the deadline expires, they not even react to complaints of their customers.
This is the way they handle things in "this star wars mmo". I am so sick of being lied to, i appreciate the honesty of Goblinworks.
Instead of focusing on the cons, i propose focusing on the pros: you will be able to play from the start, work with the devs, shape the game.
I did. And yes, i am referring to the recent one.
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Goblin Squad Member
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How is EE going to work now? I know in the kickstarter, it said that the first 2000 would get in the first month, second 2000 in the second, etc but what if one of the guys in the first doesn‘t want to play till month four? Will the first guy from month two get into month one, guy from month three getting into month two, etc? Or will the first 2000 get first dibs on what months they want, and slowly move on from there?
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Goblin Squad Member
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How is EE going to work now? I know in the kickstarter, it said that the first 2000 would get in the first month, second 2000 in the second, etc but what if one of the guys in the first doesn‘t want to play till month four? Will the first guy from month two get into month one, guy from month three getting into month two, etc? Or will the first 2000 get first dibs on what months they want, and slowly move on from there?
I know that I read somewhere... Not sure if it was a forum member or official release, that the first $1,000,000 of pledgers would get in. Including their guild level buddies. Not positive or able to prove it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hi everyone - lots of comments to make. Bear with me!
Implementing all of the Core Rulebook...
wow - THANK YOU Ryan, it's extraordinary to actually be HEARD when commenting on a developing game, and to be ANSWERED ... awesome
Regarding my concerns about monetization, I understand your point, and I'm sure you'll make your best to make them money well spent