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After a recent thread on Heighten Spell, and a quick search of this site, as well as Wizards.com, it has become apparent that this is a Frequently Asked Question. In light of this, I pose this question to the Design Team:
So let's say I have prepared an empowered Burning Hands. I apply Heighten Spell to that same Burning Hands to raise it to a level 3 spell. Does that spell take up a level 3 spell slot or a level 5 spell slot?
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As to the relevant texts:
You can cast spells as if they were a higher level.Benefit: A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level.
Level Increase: The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level.
and
You can increase the power of your spells, causing them to deal more damage.Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half including bonuses to those dice rolls.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables.
Level Increase: +2 (an empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell's actual level.)
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To many, it is obvious how Heighten Spell works, but this question keeps coming up. It came up repeatedly in 3.5, and it continues to come up every now and then in Pathfinder. I'm surprised this issue never made it into the 3.5 FAQ. I made this thread in the hopes that Heighten Spell will finally get the FAQ treatment that it should have had a long, long time ago and we can finally put the issue to rest. Like people said in the other thread, if they are willing give a FAQ response to the fighters trading out armor proficiency question, then they can surely give a FAQ response to a poorly worded feat that has sparked much confusion over the years.
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That was my logic also. I never would have answered the fighter proficiency question if I was a dev, but since they did they might as well answer this one, not with the FAQ anyway.
The two possibilities are:
1} Yes, an increase in spell-level requires a commensurate increase in spell-slot-level.
2} No, taking a single feat automatically elevates every spell you prepare or can cast to become the highest possible spell level you cast, with no cost whatsoever.
I put this challenge to the proponents of #2: find me ONE statblock published by Paizo where all of the DCs for all of the spells a caster can cast demonstrate this behaviour.
Anguish even though we agree I have never seen heightened in a published statblock as a metamagic feat, well not on a prepared caster anyway. We will just have to wait for the FAQ to settle this one.
I am of the opinion that specific beats general, and that Heighten Spell's The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level does mean that your Heightened Empowered Fireball prepared in a fifth-level slot would be considered a 5th-level spell for the purposes of DCs.
I also believe that this is not unbalanced, and haven't seen any evidence to the contrary.
That being said, I have seen many opinions in the other direction - that such heighten spell does not work that way, pointing to the general rules of a metamagic feat. It does need FAQ clarification.
I can't see how that can be correct (balanced or not) because you are getting something for free. What is the difference between a heightened fireball in a 5th level spell slot (DC 15+ stat) and an empowered heightened fireball in the same slot? Everyone saying that heighten lets you bump the spell's level to match the slot used by other metamagic feats is allowing heighten to have its effect (increasing the actual spell level) for free. How is that "cumulative"?
I am of the opinion that specific beats general, and that Heighten Spell's The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level does mean that your Heightened Empowered Fireball prepared in a fifth-level slot would be considered a 5th-level spell for the purposes of DCs.
I also believe that this is not unbalanced, and haven't seen any evidence to the contrary.
That being said, I have seen many opinions in the other direction - that such heighten spell does not work that way, pointing to the general rules of a metamagic feat. It does need FAQ clarification.
That is not a specific rule saying heighten does not stack with the other feats to change the slots. See the other thread for my explanations.
Hopefully Tuesday's blog handles this.
Empower Spell (Metamagic)
It means the spell use a slot 2 level higher to gain 50% damage/effect.
Heighten Spell (Metamagic)
It means that for each +1 slot level, the spell goes +1 spell level (so, better DC, can bypass Sphere of invulnerability, ...). You have to actually USE better slots to improve that level, it doesn't use other metamagic to do this.
Example 1 :
Fireball + Empower + Heighten 0 = Slot of 5th level and spell of 3rd level.
Example 2 :
Fireball + Empower + Heighten 2 = Slot of 7th level and spell of 5th level.
you may have to be more specific in what you mean, I have not seen anyone arguing that for #2
PS actually, if you're interested in discussing it feel free to come over to this thread.
I really don't want to get into it here.
Oh, but you have. Any argument that you don't have to use up a higher slot, or that you can piggyback an existing slot increase from some other metamagic feat implies exactly #2.
As for playing whack-a-mole with these threads, this is where live debate and discussion should take place now that there's critical-mass for a FAQ-asking. The devs shouldn't have to go elsewhere for input and clarification of standpoints. The different sides should be summarizing their evidence here.
I can't see how that can be correct (balanced or not) because you are getting something for free. What is the difference between a heightened fireball in a 5th level spell slot (DC 15+ stat) and an empowered heightened fireball in the same slot?You're getting "something for free" exactly the same way as a character with Furious Focus gets to make her first power attack without taking a penalty.
You've paid for it with that feat you took.
Or are you saying that Weapon Focus gives you +1 to-hit "for free" too?
The feat gives you the ability to increase the spell level of a spell by preparing it or casting it from a higher level spell slot. That's what the last sentence of the feat says. Metamagic feats work more like Combat Expertise than Weapon Focus: you gain the ability to do something, but when you choose to use the ability, there is a corresponding downside. With Combat Expertise, it's that you sacrifice to hit bonus for defence. With metamagic feats you use a higher level spell slot for the increase in power (this is the general case. Yes, there are some +0 spell level metamagic feats that are zero sum: you're altering the spell so that the effect is different, not more powerful). Not all feats are created equal, the question the player selecting each feat has to ask is whether the downside is outweighed by the benefit. With Weapon Focus, the feat is pure bonus. No downside. Which is significantly weaker than increasing a save DC, or adding 50% to the effect.
Selecting Heighten Spell gives you the option of casting a spell using a higher level spell slot than it has on your class list. This effect is separate to and cumulative with the spell slot adjustments of other metamagic feats (I think the rules quoting that have been quoted enough that I don't need to go over them again). Is a heightened fireball (5th level) more powerful than a 3rd level one? Yes. Save DC is higher, and it can punch through globes. Is an empowered fireball more powerful than a fireball? Yes, you're doing up to 15d6 damage with it. Both of these things are "paid for" by using a higher level spell slot. Is an empowered heightened fireball more powerful than either a heightened fireball or an empowered fireball? Yes. It is getting the benefits of both feats. How is the downside of Heighten Spell (higher level spell slot) being applied if an empowered heightened fireball can be cast from a 5th level spell slot? It is most assuredly not "by picking the feat": the feat just gives you the option of increasing the level of the spell, at the cost of using the right level spell slot. That's the "price" of the feat selection. What, I ask again, is the "price" of heighten spell combined with any other metamagic feat if you can freely push the level of the spell up to the level of the slot being used?
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I'm completely with Avh. Never seen the feat played differently
Ditto. Avh (and many others!) is correct. I don't see any ambiguity in the rules.
I suspect some folks are confusing a spell's effective level with the level of the required spell slot. Heighten Spell affects both on a 1-1 basis, while the other metamagic feats only affect the latter. The other metamagic requirements don't magically disappear just because the caster is also applying Heighten Spell.
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The 'price' is taking the feat "Heighten Spell", and using a fifth-level spell slot. Taking an additional feat is already a steep cost.
Apparently you are unfamiliar with how metamagic feats work. Most adjust the associated level needed to prepare the spell by some amount. You are getting a benefit by casting a Heightened Fireball in a 5th level slot. That benefit came with a cost, taking the feat. If you add Empower to the list, you're getting another benefit, for another cost.
Adding the benefits of both, but not the costs, is generally not how this game works.
Heighten Spell is an amazing feat. Not only are your spell DCs higher to save against, but for spells such as Daylight and Deeper Darkness boosting their effective level +1 means that when you cast them, they're not getting countered or dispelled by opposing darkness/light descriptor spells.
To argue that a Heightened (+2), Empowered (+2) Fireball (3rd) should count as a 7th level spell regarding save DCs is nonsensical. If you cast a Maximized (+4), Empowered (+2) Magic Missile (1st), it would take up a 7th level spell slot. Not a 5th level slot, just because you want to get the benefits of both feats, but only pay the cost for one.
You'd probably need to speak to the 3e development team if you wanted to know the original intent, but with the "+1 level for +1 DC", all you have is a weak feat that noone takes.
The guys that are that are the rules team for Pathfinder were on the 3.5 development team at some point, working with those guys, and writing other books for WoTC. They also gamed together. It is not like they have no affiliation with 3.5, and were randomly chosen off the street.
How is the downside of Heighten Spell (higher level spell slot) being applied if an empowered heightened fireball can be cast from a 5th level spell slot? It is most assuredly not "by picking the feat": the feat just gives you the option of increasing the level of the spell, at the cost of using the right level spell slot. That's the "price" of the feat selection. What, I ask again, is the "price" of heighten spell combined with any other metamagic feat if you can freely push the level of the spell up to the level of the slot being used?The 'price' is taking the feat "Heighten Spell", and using a fifth-level spell slot. Taking an additional feat is already a steep cost.
The opportunity cost of this, which is what should probably be looked at instead is two feats (empower spell, heighten spell), and a fifth-level spell slot which could instead be used to cast Acidic Spray (which does a similar amount of damage as the empowered fireball, and is always considered a fifth-level spell).
Claiming that taking a feat isn't a price in and of itself is applying your own views, not an objective analysis..
EDIT: A quick amendment: it seems that the consensus is that with the restrictive "+1 level for +1 DC" argument makes the feat rather weak - strayshift above admits that he hasn't seen anyone else take it and I personally can't remember seeing it in any Paizo-published statblocks. You'd probably need to speak to the 3e development team if you wanted to know the original intent, but with the "+1 level for +1 DC", all you have is a weak feat that noone takes.
If you take Combat Expertise and Power Attack on a single character, do you try to argue that the penalty to attack rolls should only apply once? After all, you've "paid" with two feats, and should be able to get the advantages of both of them. I'll tell you now that the penalties for both apply, because the penalties are cumulative. The penalty for using Heighten Spell is that you must use a higher level spell slot. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for other metamagic feats. You do not get a free lunch just because you spent two of your feats.
Anguish even though we agree I have never seen heightened in a published statblock as a metamagic feat, well not on a prepared caster anyway. We will just have to wait for the FAQ to settle this one.
Actually, look at this:
Published Archmage statblock has Heighten Spell as a feat and an Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball prepared. If Heighten spell worked as Gniht and others are proposing, there would be no reason for the archmage not to prepare it as a Heightened Empowered DBF with a DC of 28 instead of 26.Granted, that's the only example I could find at level 15+ prepared casters, but it's there. (one other caster had heighten spell but no other metamagic so wasn't useful for comparison)
Anguish even though we agree I have never seen heightened in a published statblock as a metamagic feat, well not on a prepared caster anyway. We will just have to wait for the FAQ to settle this one.Actually, look at this:
Published Archmage statblock has Heighten Spell as a feat and an Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball prepared. If Heighten spell worked as Gniht and others are proposing, there would be no reason for the archmage not to prepare it as a Heightened Empowered DBF with a DC of 28 instead of 26.Granted, that's the only example I could find at level 15+ prepared casters, but it's there. (one other caster had heighten spell but no other metamagic so wasn't useful for comparison)
Good Find. I just wish I could find a statblock where the metamagics were stacked with heighten, but I am sure they would say it was an error.
Official Rules Response
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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qpo
Heighten Spell: How does this spell combine with other metamagic feats and using higher-level slots for lower-level spells?
Heighten Spell is worded poorly and can be confusing. It lets you use a higher-level spell slot for a spell, treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell than the standard version. Unlike Still Spell, which always adds +1 to the level of the spell slot used for a spell, Heighten Spell lets you decide increase a spell's level anywhere from +1 to +9, using a spell slot that is that many spell levels higher than the normal spell.
The language implies that the heightened spell uses whatever spell level is used to prepare or cast it, but the rules text was inherited from 3.5 and doesn't take into account (1) the normal rule allowing you to prepare a spell with a higher-level spell slot, and (2) combining it with other metamagic feats.
For (1), having Heighten Spell doesn't mean any spell you cast with a higher-level slot is automatically heightened; you still have to make the decision to prepare or cast the spell an normal or heightened.
If you are a non-spontaneous caster (such as a cleric or wizard) who wants to prepare a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot, there is no reason not to use Heighten Spell on that spell (it doesn't cost you any extra time or any other game "currency").
If you are a spontaneous caster, heightening a spell when using a higher-level spell slot still increases the casting time, just like any other use of metamagic, so you have to weigh the benefits of either
• casting it normally using the higher-level slot
vs.
• increasing the casting time to cast it as a heightened spell and treat the spell as the level of the spell slot you're using.
Example A 10th-level sorcerer could cast fireball using a 3rd-, 4th-, or 5th-level spell slot, it would only be a standard action casting time, would count as a 3rd-level spell, and have a DC of 13 + Charisma bonus. If she had Heighten Spell and wanted to heighten it using a 4th- or 5th-level spell slot, it would have a full-round action casting time, but would count as a 4th- or 5th-level spell and have a DC of 14 + Cha bonus (for a 4th-level spell) or 15 + Cha bonus (for a 5th-level slot).
For (2), you can't apply Heighten Spell to a spell at no cost: any increase to the effective spell level of the spell must be tracked and paid for by using a higher-level spell slot, above and beyond any other spell level increases from the other metamagic feats.
Example: A 15th-level wizard has Quicken Spell. If he prepares a quickened fireball, that requires a 7th-level spell slot (fireball 3rd level + quicken 4 levels). The spell's DC is still 13 + his Int bonus because it's still just a 3rd-level spell, even though it's in a 7th-level spell slot. If he also has Heighten Spell, the spell is not automatically heightened; it still counts as a 3rd-level spell and has the DC of a 3rd-level spell. If he wants to increase the quickened fireball's effective level with Heighten Spell, he needs to use an even higher level spell slot than the adjusted spell level from the Quicken Spell feat. Increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +1 (from 3rd to 4th) requires using a spell slot +1 level higher (in this case, an 8th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot); increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +2 (from 3rd to 5th) requires using a spell slot +2 levels higher (in this case, a 9th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot).
Another way to look at (2) it is to add Heighten Spell first, then other metamagic feats. Continuing the above example, you'd first heighten the fireball to a 4th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires an 8th-level spell slot (fireball 4th level + quicken 4 levels). Or first heighten the fireball to a 5th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires a 9th-level spell slot (fireball 5th level + quicken 4 levels).
(Heighten Spell is a weak metamagic feat and has limited utility when combined with other metamagic feats.)
Again, thank you, PDT. (Also, link broken in both posts of this)
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Well, I guess I can stop going through my PDF collection looking for statblocks.
Class act PDT. Thanks for settling this.
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Oh, I dont know about Heighten Spell being a weak metamagic feat. Personally, I love it for save or suck spells when there are not higher level alternatives. :)
- Gauss
Oh, I dont know about Heighten Spell being a weak metamagic feat. Personally, I love it for save or suck spells when there are not higher level alternatives. :)
- Gauss
+1. I often use Heighten + glitterdust.
Also Heighten + fireball when buying a scroll of fireball at lower levels. DC goes from 14 to 16 and bypass Minor Globe.Heighten also helps vs minor globe when you play a blaster.
Thanks a bunch for settling this ages old confusion about metamagic feats.
Oh, I dont know about Heighten Spell being a weak metamagic feat. Personally, I love it for save or suck spells when there are not higher level alternatives. :)
- Gauss
That really seems like the best case to use it, honestly. I don't think it's particularly great. But I wouldn't necessarily call it weak. Maybe just a bit limited in utility.
Also Heighten + fireball when buying a scroll of fireball at lower levels. DC goes from 14 to 16 and bypass Minor Globe.
Heighten also helps vs minor globe when you play a blaster.
You can't apply your metamagic feats to spells you cast from spell completion or spell trigger items.Also Heighten + fireball when buying a scroll of fireball at lower levels. DC goes from 14 to 16 and bypass Minor Globe.
Heighten also helps vs minor globe when you play a blaster.
Can you have the feats applied to the items when they are made, though? I think that's the question. Can't cast Fireball from a scroll and use your own Heighten Spell feat to raise its effective level. But you can create a Heightened Fireball scroll which would necessarily have a higher effective level, right?
Can you have the feats applied to the items when they are made, though? I think that's the question. Can't cast Fireball from a scroll and use your own Heighten Spell feat to raise its effective level. But you can create a Heightened Fireball scroll which would necessarily have a higher effective level, right?You can't apply your metamagic feats to spells you cast from spell completion or spell trigger items.Also Heighten + fireball when buying a scroll of fireball at lower levels. DC goes from 14 to 16 and bypass Minor Globe.
Heighten also helps vs minor globe when you play a blaster.
Yes you can use it for item creation. I think that is in the FAQ.
edit:It is not in the FAQ, but I think I saw a dev say you could. If I find the link I will post it.
heighten doesn't really affect the spell slot, so if you empower fireball you you 5 level slot than you can highten it so your dc uses the 5th level slot as well instead of 3rd level slot for DC
so Int of 16 means 3int 5 spell level = dc 18
That is not correct Morris, and the devs have already issued an FAQ saying heighten stacks with the other metamagic feats to determined the final slot used.
They also posted the results in this thread..
Does Globe of Invulnerability really come up so often that it factors into people's thought processes for preparation?
That was my thought. In my <mumble> years of playing D&D, I remember when Globe of Invulnerability was published, and I don't think I've seen it used three times since then.
Does Globe of Invulnerability really come up so often that it factors into people's thought processes for preparation?
I have never seen it in actual play.
Does Globe of Invulnerability really come up so often that it factors into people's thought processes for preparation?
When I was running Runelords, the party discovered that my conversion of a certain evoker enemy specialized in dazing evocations, so they used GoI to excellent effect to give themselves areas where they could be immune to her devastating Reflex-save or lose 3 turns combos. It almost certainly prevented them from TPKing.
So I think you'll see GoIs where you see a lot of dazing spells.