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I ask you to give an example of when an ability might help. You didn't do this. You just exclaimed that they are useful. "Being a commoner is useful!" doesn't explain how a commoner is useful.Why is it that I keep seeing the suggestion that 'all monks can do is fight in melee'? I have never had any character that was that limited...but it's not all about numbers. Monks actually have abilities that can make some issues trivial.Okay, what abilities do they have that makes things trivial?Any given ability might. Seriously, I've never seen two adventures quite alike, but in almost every single one, something the monk can do outside of combat can be very useful, if not vital. Yes, others can do those things, but it might cost a spell, or a magic item charge...or put a caster in danger they aren't prepared for...being able to jump like that is useful. Evasion is useful. Slow fall is useful. Purity of body is useful. Fast Movement is useful. Diamond body is useful. Tongue of sun and moon is useful. Empty body is useful. Combinations of their abilities can be incredibly useful.
Can people really not see that without having to ask?
No, I didn't, and I won't. I'm sorry, it's a waste of time if you don't understand it already.
No, I didn't, and I won't. I'm sorry, it's a waste of time if you don't understand it already.
If you refuse to explain your position, we might as well ignore it.
I find Barkskin to be a very good quinggong ability.
So do I.
I do not know why Barksin have to be discounted. Are standar action 1 hour buff too short in duration?
Yeah, a little bit. To be putting as your "Base AC" in any case like the person I was initially applying to was.
He was talking about how his Monk had "27 AC, as good as a Full Plate Fighter!" when he used the Mage Armor Wand and Barkskin Qinggong ability.
They're too short of a duration to be considered what your AC is going to normally be like.
Rynjin asked why he had to be a grappler. I built a grappler, but never insisted anybody had to be one. I was wondering where it came from...but didn't feel like quoting the whole thing, or ferreting that out. My apologies.
Note I said "Semi-decent support or Grappler", which is what most of these builds have been.
As well, I keep hearing "Oh, Monks aren't meant to melee." well, unless they're a Zen Archer they're not meant for ranged attacks either, which leaves, hey, COMBAT MANEUVERS, which pretty much boils down to "Grapple, Trip, or GTFO".
As far as I can tell that's what people mean when "Monk can do something" because otherwise I've got nothin'. He's no better at support than any other class, because his abilities don't support that at all. He in no way makes other people better at what they do.
As we've already stated, he's "not supposed to melee" and he can't effectively do Ranged, so please, enlighten me as to what the supposed role is supposed to be if not maneuvers.
Tetori? I haven't looked at that, yet. It's pretty good?Rynjin I think. Tetori is one of the good monks if I remember correctly. Grapple everything, pin and ko.Who said you have to be a grappler? Reference, please.Who are you quoting and what did they say?
Yes. It is the best grappling archetype IMO.
Tetori? I haven't looked at that, yet. It's pretty good?Rynjin I think. Tetori is one of the good monks if I remember correctly. Grapple everything, pin and ko.Who said you have to be a grappler? Reference, please.Who are you quoting and what did they say?
It can be, its focused on grappling. If you can grapple it, the Tetori is going to do a pretty awesome job. No penalties, gab special ability, all your bonus feats are grapple based... Its also a one trick pony as far as I can tell. Its a really good trick when it works though. Grapple, pin, stun!
Any given ability might. Seriously, I've never seen two adventures quite alike, but in almost every single one, something the monk can do outside of combat can be very useful, if not vital. Yes, others can do those things, but it might cost a spell, or a magic item charge...or put a caster in danger they aren't prepared for...being able to jump like that is useful.
There is useful and useful
Evasion is useful. - only to the monk. It's OK, but not essential.
Slow fall is useful. - less useful than a single 1st level spell, I went through thirteen levels using it a grand total of twice, and even then it wasn't exactly a game-changer.
Purity of body is useful. - marginally, it saves the cleric casting remove disease if you fail a save, which you probably won't.
Fast Movement is useful. - again, only for the monk, and a single spell trumps it and works for anybody and everybody.
Diamond body is useful. - marginally, see Purity of Body above.
Tongue of sun and moon is useful. - at this level it's a pittance, and it's not much cop for a guy who may have dumped charisma and has few negotiating skills to be able to talk to anything.
Empty body is useful. - very situational, and it's nowhere near as useful as the actual spell it emulates which effects the whole party, and lasts a lot longer.
Combinations of their abilities can be incredibly useful.
I'm not seeing it myself, and I have rarely encountered a situation where the monk ran into any use for one of these abilities, let alone a combination of them. I think the nearest I ever came was using High Jump with a run-up and Slow Fall to ensure a safe landing to save another character having to cast a spell. Useful? yes. Incredibly useful? hardly.
Can people really not see that without having to ask?
We can see the abilities, but as I point out circumstances make these abilities only marginally useful for the most part, and even then they effect only the monk. The abilities usually kick in at a later level than the equivelant spells, and only effect the monk.
Compare these abilities with things like Aura of Courage, Lay on Hands, Divine Grace - abilities that are useful both to the paladin and those around him, and he gets spells on top, and you realise what a bunch of 'meh' the monk's grab-bag really is.
No, I didn't, and I won't. I'm sorry, it's a waste of time if you don't understand it already.I ask you to give an example of when an ability might help. You didn't do this. You just exclaimed that they are useful. "Being a commoner is useful!" doesn't explain how a commoner is useful.Why is it that I keep seeing the suggestion that 'all monks can do is fight in melee'? I have never had any character that was that limited...but it's not all about numbers. Monks actually have abilities that can make some issues trivial.Okay, what abilities do they have that makes things trivial?Any given ability might. Seriously, I've never seen two adventures quite alike, but in almost every single one, something the monk can do outside of combat can be very useful, if not vital. Yes, others can do those things, but it might cost a spell, or a magic item charge...or put a caster in danger they aren't prepared for...being able to jump like that is useful. Evasion is useful. Slow fall is useful. Purity of body is useful. Fast Movement is useful. Diamond body is useful. Tongue of sun and moon is useful. Empty body is useful. Combinations of their abilities can be incredibly useful.
Can people really not see that without having to ask?
Well I think what is being asked for is how can the monk contribute barring corner cases on a consistent basis. Evasion helps the monk, but not the party as an example.
A bard helps the party with buffs. He also handles social situations with skills or magic. These are common occurrences in many games. Every class ability is useful in its own way, but when speaking in terms of a what they bring to the party, that is a different discussion.
The paladin has his charisma to saves for himself, but what he brings to the party is mercies.
It sounded like you were saying the monk did things, but the party, but never elaborated.
maybe he was exagerating but that is not enought to discount that ability. it is like saying "Divine bond sucks, it only work a couple of minutes".
Not really. Divine Bond is a single Standard to boost your weapon a good bit beyond what is normal.
That buffing takes TWO Standards to boost his AC up to roughly the same as a (non-buffed, non-shield using) Full Plate Fighter.
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No, I didn't, and I won't. I'm sorry, it's a waste of time if you don't understand it already.If you refuse to explain your position, we might as well ignore it.
Why not, people's experiences are routinely ignored. Do I have to explain things like "Tongue of Sun and Moon allows you to communicate with anybody, without ever casting a spell"? So sad.
Seriously, everybody simply gets ignored or discounted, regardless, so don't bother making me feel special. Complain away...I'm out.
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Some people have to understand that "able to do something" is not the same as "able to do something useful" and not even close to "able to do something consistently useful".
Why not, people's experiences are routinely ignored. Do I have to explain things like "Tongue of Sun and Moon allows you to communicate with anybody, without ever casting a spell"? So sad.
Seriously, everybody simply gets ignored or discounted, regardless, so don't bother making me feel special. Complain away...I'm out.
Yes, you do, because I've sincerely never encountered a situation where Tongue of the Sun and Moon would be useful, because usually at least one person in the party already knows the language, and even if they don't by level 17 (about a level after most APs END) Tongues is going to be a drop in the bucket to the Alchemist, Bard, Cleric, Inquisitor, Oracle, Sorcerer, Summoner, Wizard, or Witch.
Why not, people's experiences are routinely ignored. Do I have to explain things like "Tongue of Sun and Moon allows you to communicate with anybody, without ever casting a spell"? So sad.No, I didn't, and I won't. I'm sorry, it's a waste of time if you don't understand it already.If you refuse to explain your position, we might as well ignore it.
Whoopty do. How many things do you talk to that are unable to speak common? Does having the wizard/sorcerer/bard cast tongues really impact their usefulness for the day? Do you have a good enough CHA and the skills (diplomacy/bluff) to usefully talk to that creature?
Purity of Body is okay... Not incredibly useful, but immunities are always nice.
Diamond Body, OTOH, is pretty awesome, IMO. Poisons come up all the time! Good Fort save or not, immunity to them is sure to come in handy.
Fast Movement is cool. Too bad it has not synergy at all with FoB.
Empty Body, like most other Monk features, sounds really cool, but is very situational. And it costs a lot of Ki!
Tongue of the Sun and Moon is pretty cool, and it could be rather useful... If it didn't came into play only at 17th level. And if Monks had enough Cha and skill points to invest in social skills.
Really, if it came up about 10~12th level, it might have been actually useful. But 17th level? Too little, too late...
Actually, I don't want to bash. Heck, I'm only posting in this thread because I know a lot of people have a blast playing monks...and people that enjoy the game as it is are always horribly under-represented. I'm not a huge monk fanboy, and I'm far more into the roleplay than number crunching...but somebody has to stand up for those that are too busy playing and having fun...I understand we all want to bash various builds, but I think we can just build them and "set them loose". I'd rather we focus on whether the builds are "legal" (errors happen, after all) and suggest mild tweaks.
I'm opposed to the drunken master build because it's using an archetype. The "wand monk" build is following the rules of the contest (and has been updated to include equipment).
It is not a RP vs number crunch issue. These are problems I see at the table. My player has fun, but I, as the GM, have often allowed 3.5 material so the player can have a good time, but "the GM can fix it" is not a good defense for the monk. It is a an argument against it.
I want the monk to do well without me using 3.5 or 3rd party material as a requirement or having to do what Ashiel did and just rewrite the class.
Generally speaking if the my player focuses on offense he would suffer on defense, or if he focused on defense his offense would suffer. So that means he suffers in combat, but he also suffers outside of combat.
I want him to go with the cestus or brass knuckles, since that frees up the neck slot to get natural armor, but he wants to use his bare fist.
He has his occasional moments of glory, but it is a less than the other people at the table. He is ok with it, but when we talk I know he wants to do more.
Now here I am providing actual gameplay issues, with specific problems, and nobody from the "Monk is ok" crowd has any info for me. It reminds me of Dabbler's post about CotCT in another thread that nobody helped him on.
I think for the next monk thread I will repost this and Dabbler's thread to see what kind of advice and/or builds we get.
Why not, people's experiences are routinely ignored. Do I have to explain things like "Tongue of Sun and Moon allows you to communicate with anybody, without ever casting a spell"? So sad.No, I didn't, and I won't. I'm sorry, it's a waste of time if you don't understand it already.If you refuse to explain your position, we might as well ignore it.
Well at 17th level popping a spell that allows anyone to talk to anyone (including the guy with actual social skills) is pretty easy to do, and it's rare that you need to, so it's not a case so much of "is it useful" as it is of "is it worthwhile to have that option in place of others".
If you have an ability you almost never use, of questionable worth if it is used, is that ability not pretty much a waste of space on the page?
Seriously, everybody simply gets ignored or discounted, regardless, so don't bother making me feel special. Complain away...I'm out.
Being replied to with comments pointing out you are mistaken in your estimation of the usefulness of abilities is not being ignored. If anything, refusing to acknowledge or defend those points is you ignoring other posters.
I think we should go for 10th. Monks get their 3rd bonus feat, and it is a good point for most martials (having reached +10bab).
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Actually, I don't want to bash. Heck, I'm only posting in this thread because I know a lot of people have a blast playing monks...and people that enjoy the game as it is are always horribly under-represented. I'm not a huge monk fanboy, and I'm far more into the roleplay than number crunching...but somebody has to stand up for those that are too busy playing and having fun...I understand we all want to bash various builds, but I think we can just build them and "set them loose". I'd rather we focus on whether the builds are "legal" (errors happen, after all) and suggest mild tweaks.
I'm opposed to the drunken master build because it's using an archetype. The "wand monk" build is following the rules of the contest (and has been updated to include equipment).
It is not a RP vs number crunch issue. These are problems I see at the table. My player has fun, but I, as the GM, have often allowed 3.5 material so the player can have a good time, but "the GM can fix it" is not a good defense for the monk. It is a an argument against it.
I want the monk to do well without me using 3.5 or 3rd party material as a requirement or having to do what Ashiel did and just rewrite the class.
Generally speaking if the my player focuses on offense he would suffer on defense, or if he focused on defense his offense would suffer. So that means he suffers in combat, but he also suffers outside of combat.
I want him to go with the cestus or brass knuckles, since that frees up the neck slot to get natural armor, but he wants to use his bare fist.
He has his occasional moments of glory, but it is a less than the other people at the table. He is ok with it, but when we talk I know he wants to do more.
Now here I am providing actual gameplay issues, with specific problems, and nobody from the "Monk is ok" crowd has any info for me. It reminds me of Dabbler's post about CotCT in another thread that nobody helped him on.
I must have missed the question?
@Dabbler - You are underselling Purity of Body and Diamond Body. And fast movement is generally the most useful in the first round of combat, so that others can cast it isn't all that relevant.
Not really, for the immunities. Both rely on Fort saves, and the monk has good Fort saves. An immunity to something you would save against 70% of the time is only really 30% useful, if you take my drift. Even when it is used, at the level at which you gain them you are really only saving the use of one scroll, potion, or spell.
Don't get me wrong, they are nice to have for security, but they are also-ran abilities. If Diamond Body gave anyone the monk used a Heal skill on a +4 bonus in saves vs poisons as well, then it might actually be adding something genuinely useful.
Fast movement IS useful, and I have not denied that mobility is one of the monk's strong points. Problem is that it IS easily matched by some basic spells by the time it's getting really useful. I wouldn't lose fast movement in a monk, it's good, but the problem with it is that it's most useful in combat, and it most nerfs the monk's offence to move in combat.
And while I agree Slow Fall is meh, Quiggong fixes that.
Qingong fixes a lot of the monk's minor issues by letting you swap out abilities that do not work well together, I absolutely agree. Shame it doesn't have some better abilities to swap them out with.
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Tell you what. I have a human level 8 monk build completed. No archetype. Unarmed. Standard wbl. I did use the full range of available gear, traits and feats.
I will post it after people tell me at what numerical values they will concede I am correct. No more moving the goalpost.
I am willing to put up or shut up, are you?
Trying out PCGen. Pretty nice once you get used to it. I'll post in a few when I'm done with it.
I do not think monk save are that good to the point that an imunity is an overkill.@Dabbler - You are underselling Purity of Body and Diamond Body. And fast movement is generally the most useful in the first round of combat, so that others can cast it isn't all that relevant.Not really, for the immunities. Both rely on Fort saves, and the monk has good Fort saves. An immunity to something you would save against 70% of the time is only really 30% useful, if you take my drift. Even when it is used, at the level at which you gain them you are really only saving the use of one scroll, potion, or spell.
I never said it was, but it's more valuable to a class with poor saves than one with good saves, if you take my meaning. It's also more valuable if it can be shared and isn't just personal.
I also think the "potion, scroll or spell" is not really a good argument. In the middle of a combat is not good to fail a save agasint a posion and recive 4 point of con damage.
This is true, but it's really the only advantage the immunity confers.
Tell you what. I have a human level 8 monk build completed. No archetype. Unarmed. Standard wbl. I did use the full range of available gear, traits and feats.
I will post it after people tell at what numerical values they will concede I am correct. No more moving the goalpost.
I am willing to put up or shut up, are you?
The criteria we used in another thread was that the monk should bring something to the standard-four-PCs-party that would make it a more desirable fifth member than another class. This means it could be single abilities, or abilities in combination. I couldn't put numerical values to it, because a monk that brings abilities or brilliant maneuvers to a party doesn't have to excel in DPR; a monk that can flatten mountains with his bare hands doesn't have to worry too much about bringing skills.
The way we measured it in another thread was to compare performance against foes that were CR=level, CR=level+2, and CR=level-2 alongside some other classes. In that thread we used 13th level, and compared two core monks with a core barbarian. One monk performed better than the barbarian against one or two out of ten or so foes, the barbarian did better than both monks against the rest. He matched the monk for skills, saves, etc. and generally was the better choice for a 5th wheel.
For example, if you are going to make a maneuver-focussed monk, you need to compare well against a maneuver-focussed other class, and/or do things that class cannot in addition to maneivers in comparison with things they might be able to do that your monk cannot.
Does that make sense?
...Now here I am providing actual gameplay issues, with specific problems, and nobody from the "Monk is ok" crowd has any info for me. It reminds me of Dabbler's post about CotCT in another threadActually, I don't want to bash. Heck, I'm only posting in this thread because I know a lot of people have a blast playing monks...and people that enjoy the game as it is are always horribly under-represented. I'm not a huge monk fanboy, and I'm far more into the roleplay than number crunching...but somebody has to stand up for those that are too busy playing and having fun...I understand we all want to bash various builds, but I think we can just build them and "set them loose". I'd rather we focus on whether the builds are "legal" (errors happen, after all) and suggest mild tweaks.
I'm opposed to the drunken master build because it's using an archetype. The "wand monk" build is following the rules of the contest (and has been updated to include equipment).
It is not a RP vs number crunch issue. These are problems I see at the table. My player has fun, but I, as the GM, have often allowed 3.5 material so the player can have a good time, but "the GM can fix it" is not a good defense for the monk. It is a an argument against it.
I want the monk to do well without me using 3.5 or 3rd party material as a requirement or having to do what Ashiel did and just rewrite the class.
Generally speaking if the my player focuses on offense he would suffer on defense, or if he focused on defense his offense would suffer. So that means he suffers in combat, but he also suffers outside of combat.
I want him to go with the cestus or brass knuckles, since that frees up the neck slot to get natural armor, but he wants to use his bare fist.
He has his occasional moments of glory, but it is a less than the other people at the table. He is ok with it, but when we talk I know he wants to do more.
There was no question, but the counter argument always used is that those of us that criticize the monk are theory crafting, or that we are not playing it correctly.
However no build and advice combination has been presented to solve the issues we see in actual play. If such a combo were presented then these monk threads would end.
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Core only Monk 10
Monk 10
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +17
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Defense
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AC 24 , touch 20, flat-footed 21 (+3 armor, + 2 Dex, +3 Monk AC, +4 Wis, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 70.5 (9d8+10+10+10 Con Toughness)
Fort +10, Ref +11, Will +13 (+2 vs. enchantment)
Defensive Abilities: Improved Evasion, Deflect Arrows
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Offense
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Speed 50 ft.
Melee Unarmed Strike +16/+11 (2d6+8/20/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows (+17/+17/+12/+12) w/ki (+17/+17/+17/+12/+12)
Power attack -3 attack +6 damage on all attacks.
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Statistics
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Str 22 (15+2 (human) +1 4th), Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 18 (15+1 8th +2 Headband), Cha 9
Base Atk +6; CMB +14; CMD +23
Feats (In Order): 1 Toughness; 1 Extra Ki; 1 Dodge; 2 Deflect Arrows; 3 Weapon Focus(Unarmed Strike); 5 Power Attack; 6 Mobility; 7 Spring Attack; 9: Defensive Combat Training, 10 Improved Critical (unarmed)
Traits: Wisdom in the Flesh (stealth), Reactionary
Skills: (5 Per level) Perception +17(10+3+3), Stealth (10+3+3) +17, Sense Motive (10+3+3) + 17, Acrobatics (10+3+2) +15, Knowledge (history and Religion) (10+3+0) +13 for Both.
Other Gear Belt of Strength +4: 16,000, Bracers of Armor +3 9,000, Cloak of Resistance +2 4,000gp, Ring of protection +1 2,000gp,; Amulet of Mighty Fists +2 (16k); Monk Robe 13,000, Headband of Wisdom,
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Special Abilities
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Flurry of Blows: Fight like TWF w/level as BAB +6/+6/+1/+1
Fast Movement: +30ft
Unarmed Strike: 2d6+8
Stunning Fist: Save DC 19
Evasion: No damage on successful reflex save
Ki Pool: 11
Slow Fall: 50ft
Wholeness of Body: 8 hit points for 2 Ki.
Feel free to move things around.
EDIT: Corrected the damage to include increase in AoMF.
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There was no question, but the counter argument always used is that those of us that criticize the monk are theory crafting, or that we are not playing it correctly.
However no build and advice combination has been presented to solve the issues we see in actual play. If such a combo were presented then these monk threads would end.
No, the counter argument is define terms.
Some people have unrealistic expectations that can't be met by any class, so meeting them...not so much a goal.
I think is a pretty good advantage. the other imunity meh cause diseases tend to have a longer time to incubate, but poison can screw you in the middle of the fight.
I also think the "potion, scroll or spell" is not really a good argument. In the middle of a combat is not good to fail a save agasint a posion and recive 4 point of con damage.This is true, but it's really the only advantage the immunity confers.
It certainly can, but it seldom kills you instantly unless you have already taken a fair stack of damage. Moreover they take several failed saves to do really serious damage, and the save DCs of most poisons are not astronomical. I guess it depends how common poison is in your game as to how useful it really is.
I also think the "potion, scroll or spell" is not really a good argument. In the middle of a combat is not good to fail a save agasint a posion and recive 4 point of con damage.This is true, but it's really the only advantage the immunity confers.
This started with someone saying that monk class features could make something trivial. I'm really not seeing how the immunity makes something trivial. I'm also not big on the immunity, because its a nifty bonus in combat, but once your out its pretty moot. At those levels its easier to find cures, and the monk already has a good fort so he's not exactly lacking to make it in the first place.
The poison DCs are trivial for a class with good saves so immunity gives you protection from something you already weren't afraid of.
This started with someone saying that monk class features could make something trivial. I'm really not seeing how the immunity makes something trivial. I'm also not big on the immunity, because its a nifty bonus in combat, but once your out its pretty moot. At those levels its easier to find cures, and the monk already has a good fort so he's not exactly lacking to make it in the first place.
Well it makes it trivial to the monk, I guess. Don't get me wrong, in some games poison immunity is a Big Thing as you can get poisoned so many times that no matter how good your save, a '1' is bound to happen. However, it's less valuable if you have an immediate menas to negate the damage anyway on tap - who, at that level, does not carry a few potions of lesser restoration? For my CotCT monk, it was irrelevant, as nobody tried to poison them. The disease immunity was likewise irrelevant, because all the disease came into play before they hit that level.
I'm really not seeing how the immunity makes something trivial.
*blink*
I...uh...you do know what immunity means, right?
Yes. I know what it means. It makes it trivial to the monk. Not many(if any!) monsters make poison their big trick. If anything its "Oh, that's a little less dangerous" but as I said earlier, they have a good fort. They weren't in huge danger to begin with. Dabbler posted enough on poisons and monks I think. It would be trivial to me if the entire problem was poison, but that's not usually the case(if ever). The bigger problem is being mauled to death usually.
TLDR; It trivializes poison, but that usually isn't a big deal. Its attached to a bigger problem most of the time.
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Tell you what. I have a human level 8 monk build completed. No archetype. Unarmed. Standard wbl. I did use the full range of available gear, traits and feats.
I will post it after people tell at what numerical values they will concede I am correct. No more moving the goalpost.
I am willing to put up or shut up, are you?
I think it would be fair to compare against a TWF (Ranger or fighter). I would be glad if that monk do 80% of DPR and have 80% the AC.
it also have to have equal or better saves, particulary will saves.
It should not have less skill points than a fighter.
No two dump stats (something is wrong if you have to dup two stats to be viable, not to mention who want to play an ugly and stupid monk?)
I need exact numbers for this one. I want the goalpost nailed down. I am reasonably sure I can meet the DPR and AC criteria.
(On stats: we are talking highly optimized, min/max builds. If it is a legal build, use it. My build meets the previously stated conditions. No more moving goalposts.)
You can't nail them down. It all depends on what your monk is good at and what he can bring to the party.
the poison DCs are only a relevant threat under one circumstance
you build as your PC, an anemic bard who dumped her Constitution as low as possible.
but then, the anemic noble girl is more likely to die from being attacked then from being poisoned
when you could die from a lowly bee sting from a lucky bee, you know you are screwed.
if you planned on playing a bard or sorcerer whom dumped constitution, you already had planned intentions of becoming an intelligent undead in the near future. such as a vampire or lich.
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The criteria we used in another thread was that the monk should bring something to the standard-four-PCs-party that would make it a more desirable fifth member than another class.
I am bringing DPR. Something easily defined and measured. Assume I am competing for the barbarian's role in the party at 8th level. DPR is measured against the published average AC 21 for an APL+1 opponent,
Give me builds & numbers.
Tell you what. I have a human level 8 monk build completed. No archetype. Unarmed. Standard wbl. I did use the full range of available gear, traits and feats.
I will post it after people tell at what numerical values they will concede I am correct. No more moving the goalpost.
I am willing to put up or shut up, are you?
I will have to see what is acceptable when dealing with DR since the monk would have to do enough damage to keep the monster's attention.
Now the more you can do in combat the less you should be expected to do out of combat.
As an example if you only do 35 DPR that is fine, if you can consistently bring other things to the table.
My monk had a good perception, but the stealth was only a +14 IIRC.
After checking.
The DPR is 30.12 assuming DR is not in play.
If DR 5 comes into play that he can not bypass the DPR drops to 18.1
Most AP's have the end of the book fights at APL+2 so let see how monster that could be a boss might affect the monk.
The Bebelith has DR 10. A cleric can probably help overcome DR/good.
If the DR can not be overcome the DPR drops to 5.8.
Once DR can be overcome it goes up to 27.56 which is little more than 1/6th of the monster's hit points
Now the monster can hit an AC of 21 on a 2 so not including crits that is 41.8 points of damage to the monk.
Then there is the 23 DC Fort save which most level 8 characters will have trouble with. My monk has a +11 so he needs to roll a 12. That is a 60% chance to fail.
That leads to 2 points of con damage a round.
To cure it the monk needs to make two consecutive saves. I think that is about a 20% chance of success which means it takes 5 attempts, so 4 fails, after the initial round.
That is about 10 con, assuming my numbers are not off and they may be.
Well then again each round lowers the chance to make the next save, but the hit point damage along might kill the monk if he gets the monsters attention.
Now that is a brutal encounter, but a dragon would be harded pressed to attack a monk first since it can just fly around.
I am not suggesting using the bebelith. I just chose it because I it is an APL+2, and I fought one in an official campaign. I think any CR 10 monster is giving the monk trouble. I think its better to use more monsters instead of 1 so lets go with two CR 8's.
Two morghs and monk does a lot better, but its still a tough fight.
Two stone giants, and the monk is in trouble again.
I am guessing monsters relying on SLA's and forcing saves would give the monk a better chance, and after looking at the dark naga it seems I am right.
Well that is for my monk anyway, which I admittedly tried to avoid doing any research with and basically buy a build by crafting.
I would say, unbuffed. Everyone can use buffs, so assume unbuffed stats save for permanent equipment.
If the game you're in involves often fighting Purple Worms, then I would agree with you as 3 saves at DC 25 can definitely be brutal. Besides that I'm not so sure; I'm not terribly familiar with monster stats so I don't know just how much of a corner case the Purple Worm is, but I do know that for poisons that you can buy that most DCs are garbage or are pretty expensive for what they do (Purple Worm poison costs 700 gold per dose iirc).
I do not think monk save are that good to the point that an imunity is an overkill.@Dabbler - You are underselling Purity of Body and Diamond Body. And fast movement is generally the most useful in the first round of combat, so that others can cast it isn't all that relevant.Not really, for the immunities. Both rely on Fort saves, and the monk has good Fort saves. An immunity to something you would save against 70% of the time is only really 30% useful, if you take my drift. Even when it is used, at the level at which you gain them you are really only saving the use of one scroll, potion, or spell.
I never said it was, but it's more valuable to a class with poor saves than one with good saves, if you take my meaning. It's also more valuable if it can be shared and isn't just personal.
I also think the "potion, scroll or spell" is not really a good argument. In the middle of a combat is not good to fail a save agasint a posion and recive 4 point of con damage.This is true, but it's really the only advantage the immunity confers.
Tell you what. I have a human level 8 monk build completed. No archetype. Unarmed. Standard wbl. I did use the full range of available gear, traits and feats.
I will post it after people tell at what numerical values they will concede I am correct. No more moving the goalpost.
I am willing to put up or shut up, are you?
The criteria we used in another thread was that the monk should bring something to the standard-four-PCs-party that would make it a more desirable fifth member than another class. This means it could be single abilities, or abilities in combination. I couldn't put numerical values to it, because a monk that brings abilities or brilliant maneuvers to a party doesn't have to excel in DPR; a monk that can flatten mountains with his bare hands doesn't have to worry too much about bringing skills.
We did allow more books, but some people did use core only monks. The monks that presented problems were the multiclassed master of many styles monks.
There were maneuver based monks used IIRC, and the monsters either ate them for lunch or ignored them.
There was no question, but the counter argument always used is that those of us that criticize the monk are theory crafting, or that we are not playing it correctly.
However no build and advice combination has been presented to solve the issues we see in actual play. If such a combo were presented then these monk threads would end.
No, the counter argument is define terms.
Some people have unrealistic expectations that can't be met by any class, so meeting them...not so much a goal.
If I tell someone what the problem is in my game that is as good as I can get.
TLDR---The core monk suffers against AP's and stock monsters. It either hurts for defense or offense.
If it brings the pain it gets smacked in the face. If it can not be hit the monster goes for a target that is easier to hit. Finding a middle ground is hard to do. <---Issues with unarmed strike based monks.