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I have some questions regarding these two feats and how they interact with flanking. I’ve quoted the relevant material below, but first the questions;
1. Snap Shot: “You do not provoke AoO’s when making ranged attacks as an AoO”. What’s left unsaid is that you do not provoke AoO’s as part of an attack sequence that is not an AoO (We have Point Blank Master for that). Is it safe to assume that you still provoke an AoO with a Standard Action or Full-Attack attack action?
2. Improved Snap Shot: “Normal: Making a ranged attack provokes AoO’s”. Hold on a minute. Nowhere in the write up for this feat does it say that you no longer provoke AoO’s. Point Blank Master is not a pre-requisite and if my assertion in question #1 is correct wouldn’t an Archer still provoke an AoO when making a ranged attack that is not an AoO?
3. Flanking: “When making a melee attack you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another character.” Okay so this one may have several sub-questions; It seems clear that the Archer with Snap Shot/Improved Snap Shot would not receive the +2 flanking bonus on account that he is not making a melee attack. If his Ally who he is flanking with is making a melee attack, the Ally should receive the +2 bonus. Is this correct?
Now what if the Archer in question is a Rogue or Ninja? If they are 15’ away (Imp. Snap Shot) but meeting the criteria for flanking would they be entitled to roll for Sneak Attack damage even though they do not receive the +2 flanking bonus on their attack roll?
With a ranged weapon, you can take advantage of any opening in your opponent’s defenses.
Prerequisite: Dex 13, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.
You can take advantage of your opponent’s vulnerabilities from a greater distance, and without exposing yourself.
Prerequisite: Dex 15, Point-Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Snap Shot, Weapon Focus, base attack bonus +9.
Benefit: You threaten an additional 10 feet with Snap Shot.
Normal: Making a ranged attack provokes attacks of opportunity.
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked.
Exception: If a flanker takes up more than 1 square, it gets the flanking bonus if any square it occupies counts for flanking.
Only a creature or character that threatens the defender can help an attacker get a flanking bonus.
Creatures with a reach of 0 feet can't flank an opponent.
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Anyone? I'm building a Ninja for PFS and want to be sure I understand the rules correctly. I may just go Dazzling display/Shatter defenses if flanking with Improved Snap Shot doesn't work how I hope it works (I.e. be able to flank from as much as 15' and get Sneak Attack despite not getting +2 on the attack roll).
1. Yes, you would still provoke AoOs as normal without Point-Blank Master (or Safe Shot from the archer archetype). They just threw that text in there because it's stupid to provoke an AoO from another AoO, and potentially have a domino effect of AoOs.
2. I'm not really sure what the exact point is of including this text in the feat. Maybe it's just to remind us that even though you threaten a larger area, you otherwise still provoke AoOs when making ranged attacks.
3. As per RAW, it doesn't say your ally has to be threatening with a melee weapon. They just have to be threatening them. The melee character would benefit from flanking, but not the archer. As far as the distance issue, remember: "When in doubt about whether two characters flank an opponent in the middle, trace an imaginary line between the two attackers' centers. If the line passes through opposite borders of the opponent's space (including corners of those borders), then the opponent is flanked." I would say if the lines properly connect, even from 15 feet away, then you're good to go. As far as the sneak attack issue, I could see it argued either way. Some might say since you don't get the bonus, then you don't get the sneak attack. Some might say that since you are in a flanking position, you do still get the sneak attack. Since this is for PFS, I honestly have no idea how they would deal with it.
Also, I took the Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses combo with my character, then realized it's actually pretty lame. You have to waste a full-round action intimidating, then on your next turn actually hit someone affected by it, and on the round after that they are finally treated as flat-footed to your attacks only. I think that takes too much time setting up for a minimal effect that doesn't last very long. Unless you have someone else setting it up for you, which in that case you still have to waste a turn hitting someone before it takes effect.
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Thanks Submit2me. You've reaffirmed my suspicions, but I'd love to hear the counter points just in case I'm overlooking something.
And thank you for sharing about the DD/SD feat line. I am hesitant about the action economy you pay up front for the potential return at the end...
Then I imagine "what if you were lucky enough to hit on the first arrow of a Full-Attack using Rapid Shot?"
You'd still have Full BAB -2 plus an iterative at -5 and a Ki Point for a second chance at Full BAB -2... Then the next round Full-Attack... Potentially 7 shots (5 of them at BAB-2) that tack on a decent number of Sneak Attack dice while your opponent is flat-footed and presumably easier to hit. It's tempting...
You cannot flank with ranged weapons, not even with Snap Shot. Flanking specifically states you must make a MELEE attack.
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I agree that it says you get the +2 bonus with a melee attack. It also says you get that bonus when your foe is threatened by another character. Snap shot & improved allow you to threaten with a ranged weapon.
I don't believe the archer qualifies for the bonus. I don't see anything that would preclude an Archer with said feats from participating in a flank. With that in mind would said Archer qualify for Sneak Attack?
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Game developers have already commented in similar matters. It was CLEARLY stated that you cannot flank AT ALL with a ranged weapon. You do not get the +2, sneak attack, or any other benefit of flanking. It wasn't a matter of threatening, it was a matter of making a melee attack versus a ranged attack.
Now, if you found a way to make a melee attack with your bow, that would work.
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I would appreciate it if you would be so kind as to point me to where it is clearly stated.
I fully agree that at the time the CRB was written the only way to 'threaten' was with melee attacks.
With the publication of the feats in question things have changed. Re-read the feats I quoted above - its right there "you threaten" with a ranged weapon.
And while it's equally clear that you would not gain the +2 bonus from flanking, you should by RAW be able to participate in a flank on account that you threaten. (note that in the CRB it does not call out that your ally must also be making a melee attack).
So while there is a chance that this is an oversight and i am inferring something that isn't there. There is also a chance that they wrote these feats for the express purpose of helping out the Rogue.
I do appreciate your replies.
D
The elven archer from kobold quarterly has a flank ability with their bow. Seems to me you can flank with ranged, it's just paizo has never clearly stated it yet.
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As far as the CRB goes I'm in whole hearted agreement with Raving Dork - but the way the new feats are written makes me think it may not just be a 'happy accident' that they seem to allow an archer to flank on the basis thay they now 'threaten'.
In the rules for Flank it doesn't say your ally has to be threatening with a melee weapon - it just says "threatened".
If it does work the way I kind of hope it does it makes Archery even more powerful then it already was (and it was already an optimal choice)... Especially for a Rogue or Ninja... But it does make me question my logic.
I would appreciate it if you would be so kind as to point me to where it is clearly stated.
FAQ - Gang Up: Does this feat (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?: "The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)"
I fully agree that at the time the CRB was written the only way to 'threaten' was with melee attacks.
With the publication of the feats in question things have changed. Re-read the feats I quoted above - its right there "you threaten" with a ranged weapon.
And while it's equally clear that you would not gain the +2 bonus from flanking, you should by RAW be able to participate in a flank on account that you threaten. (note that in the CRB it does not call out that your ally must also be making a melee attack).
You're misunderstanding what flanking is.
Flanking: "When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner."
You do not have to threaten in order to get the flanking bonus.
A character with a whip, who does not threaten any squares, can get the flanking bonus (and sneak attack) against a foe who is threatened on his opposite side. This is because he's making a melee attack, and his opponent is threatened on the opposite side. In the case of whip-guy, he can get flanking from the sword-fighter on the other side. The sword-fighter doesn't get flanking, because whip-guy doesn't threaten. Flanking does not always happen in pairs.
A character with a bow, even if he does threaten squares, cannot get the flanking bonus (and sneak attack) with a ranged attack, even though he threatens, because he is not making a melee attack. It doesn't matter how threatened the enemy is, because if you're not making a melee attack, you don't gain the flanking bonus.
Also, I took the Dazzling Display/Shatter Defenses combo with my character, then realized it's actually pretty lame. You have to waste a full-round action intimidating, then on your next turn actually hit someone affected by it, and on the round after that they are finally treated as flat-footed to your attacks only.
This is incorrect... Shatter Defenses clearly states that it covers any remaining attacks in the current round as well as all attacks in the following round. Provided that your intimidate was high enough to last additional rounds, you can refresh the Shatter Defenses duration with every hit.
You also don't have to use Dazzling Display, you could make a single-target Intimidate check, or use a line of feats that grants you a bonus free action Intimidate. Or, you could ask the friendly party wizard to cast Fear on the enemy...
I think some posters are misunderstanding the question. The character with the bow is not trying to get a flanking bonus, he is trying to provide a flanking bonus to another character by virtue of threatening with Snapshot / Imp. Snapshot. That other character would have to be using a melee weapon to flank.
I think some posters are misunderstanding the question. The character with the bow is not trying to get a flanking bonus, he is trying to provide a flanking bonus to another character by virtue of threatening with Snapshot / Imp. Snapshot. That other character would have to be using a melee weapon to flank.
That's the first part of question 3.
The OP also asked: "Now what if the Archer in question is a Rogue or Ninja? If they are 15’ away (Imp. Snap Shot) but meeting the criteria for flanking would they be entitled to roll for Sneak Attack damage even though they do not receive the +2 flanking bonus on their attack roll?"
The answer is no, they do not get sneak attack damage from flanking when making a ranged attack.
People think of flanking as 'being in a position in which the flanking bonus is sometimes applied' instead of 'making an attack in which you gain the flanking bonus' which would make everything pretty clear. Since the archer is making a ranged attack, he's not making a melee attack, which means he's not getting the flanking bonus, which means he's not flanking, which means he doesn't get sneak attack from flanking.
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Okay - so the Archer with Imp. Snap shot can provide a flanking bonus to a character making a melee attack who meets the requirements set forth in the Flanking rules (i.e. opposing sides etc) on account that they "threaten" from 15'.
The Archer is not considered to be 'flanking' on account that they are not making a melee attack, therefore they do not gain Sneak Attack (unless of course they qualify for Sneak Attack through other means).
I re-read the Flanking rules with that in mind and it clicked.
Thank you Grick!
I really don't think even an archer with Snap Shot can help provide flanking for others.
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I really don't think even an archer with Snap Shot can help provide flanking for others.
Snap Shot (Combat): "While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you."
Flanking: "When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner."
[ Archer ] [ Goblin ] [ Swordsman ]
Assuming they're in a straight line and both adjacent to goblin, the archer threatens the goblin on the opposite border from swordsman, so when the swordsman makes a melee attack, he gets a +2 flanking bonus because his opponent is threatened by another enemy character on its opposite border.
The archer doesn't get flanking if he shoots the goblin, because he's not making a melee attack. But he certainly threatens it, and the swordsman can get the flanking bonus (and sneak attack if relevant).
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I encourage you to post this in the Suggestions/House Rules/Homebrew forum, then, and not the Rules Questions forum.
People come here for answers on how features function within the rules as written or intended. If they don't like that answer they can move to the other forum and ask other GMs how they handle the issue.
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OK, so I have a question regarding this feat:
Dimensional Savant
You flash into and out of reality so quickly it is impossible to tell exactly where you are at any given time.
Prerequisites: Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, Dimensional Dervish, ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, base attack bonus +9.
Benefit: While using the Dimensional Dervish feat, you provide flanking from all squares you attack from. Flanking starts from the moment you make an attack until the start of your next turn. You can effectively flank with yourself and with multiple allies when using this feat.
If the person attacks with a bow from multiple locations... you can provide flanking for yourself is how I originally read it. After thinking about it, you provide flanking from all squares you attack from... means the other people get the flanking... but if YOU are your own flanking partner, using a bow... would you have to swap weapons to a melee weapon to actually add sneak attack damage? I think this feat is where some of the original confusion comes from. But by the reading that melee is required, you WOULD have to swap weapons or not add sneak attack damage?
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lol What if the archer used his bow as a melee weapon then would he get flanking? Sorry couldn't resist.
Yes. This would be a good time to use the Bowstaff spell btw.
Also if you have an Animal companion and Combat Expertise and snap shot you can get Pack Flanking which allows, RAW, flanking with a ranged weapon. You would need to be threatening, which is enabled by Snap Shot, and you'd also need to be next to your animal companion (or mounted on) and then you'd have flanking.Pack Flanking
Benefit: When you and your companion creature have this feat, your companion creature is adjacent to you or sharing your square, and you both threaten the same opponent, you are both considered to be flanking that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.
Nothing in pack flanking obviates the need for a melee weapon to benefit from flanking.
relevant FAQ