What drew me to the rogue?
Her full, pouting lips. And her curvy, bumpy green skin.
Of course, that was years ago. I'm more into brains now.
I thought you got bonuses for attacking from a higher position. If not, then boo. Otherwise you get that. Also, if you can lie in wait or use climb to get concealment you could do that one round, stealth and attack from above to get a higher to-hit and sneak attack.
Buri: If you are climbing you are unable to use both hands so no bow use. However, you could use a light or one-handed weapon.
- Gauss
You don't get a bonus for attacking from higher ground with a ranged weapon only melee.
Buri: sorry, hadn't put 2+2 together. I was just keying off making an attack while climbing.
- Gauss
Oh, sorry for being unclear. I wasn't talking about attacking while climbing but rather climbing and then dropping down from above.
Ahhh ye olde Death From Above attack. Gotta love that when you are piloting a mech and jump on some poor unsuspecting enemy mech's head. Errr..wrong game. Sorry. Lost myself there. :D
- Gauss
An acrobatics check can fix that gnomersy. Intentionally falling helps :).
- Gauss
There is totally a bit of a damage mod... If you drop from at least 10ft anyway. ;)
Then why does the acrobat give bonuses to climb at level 1? It's a perfectly legit optimization. It works in forests, mountainous areas, several types of dungeons, cities, etc. It can be used in a lot of places, basically anywhere that's not a flat plane or desert.
Don't be mad just because the rogue can do something well before anyone else.
Also, the wiz and sorc CAN NOT make those scrolls at level 2.
The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.
300 GP please.
Ah, yeah you're right.
I just find the idea of spending over 10% of your wealth on a transient item to be sketchy at best. Maybe I've been playing the rogue too long though, haha. I'm pretty stingy with my gold and generally only by things that give lasting benefits like a chime of interruption.
That said, I did 'buy' a custom bracelet that have some single-use charms. It's an awesome bracelet though.
|
what do you guys think about the Rogue Guile Pool?
Guile Pool = half level plus CHA pts
Use = 1 point to gain a +2 to a skill check or a +1 to a combat roll
Passive = if >1 in pool, you gain Improved Feint
and the Ambush ability?
if you Sneak Attack on Surprise round, +1 damage per dice, foe sickened for 1d4+1 rounds vs DC 10 + half level + DX.
at later levels, sickened becomes staggered, nauseated, stunned.
i play a Rogue who dumps INT and CHA, so as to have good saving throws, and who optimizes Deft Hands skills (Disable Device and Sleight of Hand), as well as the skills that allow me to overcome obstacles which would hinder me; Acrobatics, Climb, Escape Artist, Stealth.
while i may not be an optimized striker, i have been able to neutralize many threats just by being able to arrive on the scene swiftly, threateningly. a Bomb-hurling Alchemist, a Blaster Wizard, a Poison Arrow Sniper, all lose significant attack advantage merely by being engaged in a knife-fight (a d4!).
i like Rogues for their overall feel. ready-for-anything. wake up roll outta bed and hit the streets. but mechanically, it's mostly the "greater than the sum of their parts"/well-rounded argument. 8 unrestricted skill points - modified by the Talents. the emphasis on movement and mobility. evasion! the tactical emphasis on "window of opportunity"/timing for sneak attack. having very little to lose comparatively - no favored weapon, no spellbook, no holy symbol. if you run in a game where the DM splits the action, going back and forth, so as to take advantage of the "Rogue on the Prowl" thing, that's a plus. if you play 'organized' play more, he is a solid team player who shares the spotlight. and finally, Pathfinder bumped us to d8. thank you!
as for the much harder using of Acrobatics to avoid Opportunity Attacks, i think it is fair. Besides, it takes a Feat to have more than one Opportunity. this is another of the Rogue's windows!
finally, and despite game designers' attempts at 'balance', a high level Magic-User is oftentimes more powerful than most other classes. it is possibly unavoidable that this is so.
so i think the Rogue is fine. also, the Rogue Guile and Ambush is cool, but not necessary. as for Rogues and more Magic - i disagree that all Rogues would embrace this attitude. there is nothing like a little elbow grease! if you want more Magic, there are Talents and other classes for that.
cheers.
I have always loved playing Rogues. But I think it is far more about the flavor, the variety, and the RP scenarios than it is about any actual mechanical advantage.
I think one very important thing that a lot of people forget (especially in their home games) is that PF was created to be backwards compatible with 3.5 for a reason... So if your PF Rogue (or PF game in general) needs a boost, ask your DM if you can draw from the 3.5 resources that PF was built from. It worked well in my games, and created a lot of diversity in the game with both characters and NPCs that didn’t yet exist in published PF.
I don't think the Rogue needs to be a full BAB class, although it would be the easiest change to make if you want to bring them up a little without putting much work into it. But the real problem with the Rogue is that they have lost a lot of their identity to other classes along the transition to PF and have suffered a further loss of that identity with several of the archetypes and alternate classes that have been published more recently. The Rogue can do a lot of things pretty well but at present can't do any of them better than (or in most cases even half as good as) the other base classes they share those areas of expertise with.
Rogue is/has:
1) Stealth - Shared with Bard and Ranger primarily. Both the Bard and the Ranger have built in advantages over the Rogue when it comes to Stealth and sneaking around unnoticed. The Bard has several spells that can augment its sneaking making it naturally better than the Rogue. The Ranger is IMO the unchallenged King of Stealth, in many ways even better than the Shadowdancer and Assassin PrCs in this regard and certainly far better than the Rogue. Not only do Rangers get spells to help their sneaking, they get Camouflage and HiPS in each of their favored terrains (no matter the lighting conditions, and even in an anti-magic field). A smart player in a consistent campaign can pick his favored terrains carefully and probably have access to Camouflage and HiPS through 80%-90% of the game. PF attempted to patch this in the APG with the HiPS Advanced Talent. This still leaves the Rogue having to spend a great deal of his finite class resources and it still isn’t even close to what the Ranger is capable of without spending any finite class resources. Aside from spending half or all of his Advanced Talents on HiPS the Rogue is forced to PrC into Shadowdancer or Assassin (neither of which are fantastic options IMO) in order to be even almost as good as a Ranger in the Stealth and scouting departments.
2) Trap Finder - Traps and Poisons look to be improved in PF but a lot of people complain that traps are rare in PFS and Home Games. That isn’t the case with my DMs but in a case where it’s true you aren’t going to shine as a Rogue clearing the way for the party. Add on top of that all the Archetypes for other classes that now have access to Rogue level trap finding capabilities and the Rogue starts to become less individual with even less to contribute.
3) Skill Monkey – Shared with Bard and Ranger primarily; Inquisitor also does a good job in some aspects. The PF Bard has without a doubt and without even a close competitor taken the crown away from every other class in this regard, and that is without even needing to use their spells. With spells included the comparison is ridiculous. IMO 6 + Int Bonus, 6th level Spells, Versatile Performance, Lore Master, and Jack of All Trades are a bit much in the skill diversity department. No one should be more diverse or handy in any given situation (without the use of magic) than a Rogue, but the Bard so far overshadows the Rogue in this regard that it’s not even a fair comparison. To continue to call the Rogue a “skill monkey” just because it has 8 + Int bonus and Trapfinding as a class ability is an insult, teasing all Rogues everywhere with the title that they have pathetically lost to the PF Bard.
4) Face of the Party – Please, most Rangers can do just as well in Diplomacy, Bluff or Intimidate (especially against favored enemies). Fighters and Barbarians (especially of the Orcish persuasion) can be far better at Intimidate. The Inquisitor actually gets class ability bonuses to Diplomacy and Intimidate. There is no reason a Paladin shouldn’t crush a Rogue as the “face of the party.” And let’s face it; the Bard with its kingship over skills really crushes everyone in this department as well.
5) Support Combatant (Sneak Attacker) – Sneak Attack provides great spike damage; unfortunately that is also the main problem. A lot of the reason the Rogue has inconsistent damage is TWF, most people look at that -2 to hit and think it’s not a big deal, you make it up in Flanking, but it really is a big deal. My best performing Rogues have been single hand melee builds. Additionally Sneak Attack is still fairly situational. It isn’t as highly situational as a Ranger’s Favored Enemy damage; however the Ranger has better consistent damage output. The Fighter, on the other hand, has access to feats and class features that give them a huge damage output on a very consistent level (which is a good thing, they are performing exactly as they should be). However, some Bard Archetypes get good, fairly consistent damage and to hit bonuses without even tapping into their spells.
6) Battlefield Mobility – The Rogue is capable with high Acrobatics (it’s harder in PF but still possible) to get quickly into position almost anywhere on the battlefield. Put that together with high Dex based AC, Dodge, Mobility, and possibly Spring Attack and the Rogue goes anywhere he wants on the battlefield with relatively little to fear. These feats were always open to anyone willing to invest but were usually only taken by Rogues and Monks from what I have seen. Once again the Bard (and in this case the Monk) has been given special advantages and started to utterly surpass the Rogue in this capability with the addition of the Dimensional Agility feat tree. With access to these feats the Monk and Bard have effectively blown away anything the Rogue could ever hope to achieve in this arena. It would be one thing if the Shadowdancer’s Shadow Jump ability counted as a prerequisite for these feats (at least then the Rogue could PrC into this capability) but that is not the case and once again the Bard has solidly crushed any and all competition in this aspect.
The release of PF CRB saw a great deal of improvement for all classes; however I think the Bard has gotten more than its fair share, especially after the release of APG and UC Archetypes. If you want to play a Rogue there is no mechanical reason you shouldn’t instead choose to play a Sandman Bard or an Archeologist Bard, and if you want to play a combat oriented Rogue there is no mechanical reason not to instead play a Dervish Dancer Bard. The Bard has not only stepped on the toes of the Rogue; it has cut off both feet at the ankles. As far as I can tell if you are playing a Rogue instead of a Ranger or a Archetype Bard it is simply because you have a soft spot in your heart for Rogues (I am one of these people so it pains me deeply to write this). IMO the thing that needs to happen to improve the Rogue class is to give it back some of its identity. By this I mean several things, keep in mind not ALL of these things need to happen together, but some of them definitely do:
1) Stealth - The base Rogue should be on close to equal ground with the Ranger in the arena of Stealth (that means improving their HiPS Advanced Talent; giving more bang for that buck).
2) Trap Finder – Rogues should most certainly be the undisputed king of B&E and handling traps. They don’t have to be the only ones capable of setting or taking down traps, but they should be the only ones who get the big bonuses to trap finding and the only ones able to use disable device on magical traps.
3) Skill Monkey – The Bard’s Versatile Performance should get scaled back, I like what DracoDruid wrote. Jack of All Trades should be scaled back a little and entered as a Rogue Advanced Talent. It should also be removed as the Bard capstone ability and replaced with something that gives the Bard it's own unique identity without taking away one of the Rogue's major identities. Also, perhaps give the Rogue a 10 + Int bonus for Skill Points to set them a bit further ahead as "skill monkeys" in light of the way PF changed the skills system.
4) Face of the Party – I think the Rogue is right where he should be here with certain Rogue talents. If there is a Bard or a Paladin in the party I think it makes sense that they would be better than the Rogue in this regard.
5) Support Combatant – I think the class is pretty much where it should be here. Perhaps a +1 every 5 levels to hit bonus when dealing SA would give them a small boost. Or maybe just increasing their options like combat swipe and other related abilities.
6) Battlefield Mobility – The Rogue is pretty much exactly where he should be here. If built right a Rogue moving through the battlefield is pretty hard to hit. I would love to see the Shadowdancer’s Shadow Jump ability count as a prerequisite for the Dimensional Agility feat tree.
In other words, improve the Rogue's Stealth abilities and scale the Bard way back because he is really derailing the Rogue in a lot of ways. I agree that the 3.5 Bard was terrible and needed help, but I think it's been taken too far into the Rogue's territory.
I think the best reason to play a rogue instead of a bard is that it allows you to not be a bard.
|
|
my one fix?
(inspired/modified from the Guile Pool from Rogue Glory)
Execution Pool (Ex):
Execution Pool (Ex):
A Rogue uses rigorous on-the-ground training and off-the-cuff thinking to develop and build upon her natural aptitudes. She is the undisputed master of Extraordinary Abilities that supplement her broad and deep understandings of how to execute incredible feats of raw skill.
Skills modified by an Execution Pool must be Trained Rogue Skills. That is, Class Skills that the Rogue has at least 1 rank in - with the exception of Craft, Profession, and Performance Skills. Appropriate Skills to use with the Execution Pool are as follows: Acrobatics, Appraise, Bluff, Climb, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Local), Linguistics, Perception, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Stealth, Swim, and Use Magic Device.
at 2nd level, a Rogue gains an Execution Pool equal to half her Rogue Level plus CHA modifier. this pool replenishes after 8 hours of rest. if the Rogue ever steals an item from a non-ally worth more than 1,000 times her Rogue level in gold pieces, she immediately gains 1 point back.
so long as she has 1 point in her pool, she instead gains a +5 bonus to Trained Rogue Skills, which overlaps (does not stack with) the usual +3 bonus to Trained Class skills.
Innovative Execution (Ex):
further, as a free action, she may spend 1 point to gain a +1 Insight bonus to any Trained Rogue Skill check. If this would drop her to 0 points, she maintains her enhanced Training bonus (+5, see above) for the duration of the check. at third level, and every three Rogue levels thereafter, her Innovative Execution bonus further increases by +1. Innovative Execution may only be used once per Trained Rogue Skill per day.
Confident Execution (Ex):
at 6th level, as a free action she may expend 1 point to roll twice for a single Trained Rogue Skill check, taking the desired result. she must declare this usage before rolling the dice. Confident Execution may be used in conjunction with the various Rogue Talents that allow additional rolls, but never more than once per Trained Rogue Skill per day.
Smooth Execution (Ex):
at 10th level, as a free action she may expend 1 point to "take 10" on any Trained Rogue Skill check (or, on any single roll as part of a check). If the skill in question is a Skill Mastery skill, or any skill that is the focus of any Rogue Talent, she may additionally partially or totally ignore a penalty of up to -5 per additional point spent. Smooth Execution may only be used once per Trained Rogue Skill per day.
Meticulous Execution (Ex):
at 14th level, as a free action she may choose to re-roll any Trained Rogue Skill check after rolling an initial attempt, by expending 1 point. this second result must be kept. If the skill in question is a Skill Mastery skill, or any skill that is the focus of any Rogue Talent, the first result may be kept in lieu of the second result. Meticulous Execution may only be used up to once per Trained Rogue Skill per day.
Masterful Execution (Ex):
at 18th level, as a free action she may expend 1 point to "take 20" on any Trained Rogue Skill check. If the skill in question is a Skill Mastery skill, or any skill that is the focus of any Rogue Talent, she may additionally partially or totally ignore a penalty of up to -10 per additional point spent. Masterful Execution may only be used once per Trained Rogue Skill per day.
...
whaddya all think?
my intent here is to boost the Rogue's non-combat skills (of course some of these can certainly be used in combat which is a roundabout way of boosting the combat skills) and re-establish the Rogue as the Go-To Class for Breadth AND Depth of Skill Training, without encroaching upon some of the brilliant mechanical/thematic changes/innovations that are the Bard or Ninja, except inasmuch as there is 'skill competition' between them - my proposals advance on par with Versatile Performance (2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, 18th) and Ki Pool (2nd). And all in Extraordinary (Ex) fashion, leaving Arcane/Arbitrary Lore to the Bard and the Supernatural to the Ninja. Also, i tried to create the incentive to remain 'loyal' to the class by spreading these abilities out, tying them into other 'skillsy' Rogue Talents for additional effect, and making the benefits exclusive to "Trained Rogue Skills".
if you like this, help me name the abilities better?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The desire to play a Rogue named Rouge. I'm going to do it one day, and it will be amazing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
People seem to want to compare the rogue to a fighter in combat, saying its not effective. But thats the whole thing, if you want to do damage play a fighter. If you want to be a verstile play a rogue.
Just a few questions for the rogue players out there.
Mainly what drew you to playing and enjoying the rogue class?
Does the rogue satisfy those needs?
Do you think the rogue is better or worse than relatively equivalent classes in terms of role (alchemist/ninja/bard)?
Whether yes or no why did you not play one of those classes?
What do you think could be done to improve the class in achieving the flavor you desire?
There are secret motives behind these questions and I feel this will inevitably turn into a "rogues are crap/fine" thread which is all well and good as long as there's some actual logic and discussion behind it.
The cool moves/abilities, the skills, the dodginess, the potential and that you really don't ever want to fight fair.
I like em, have played them in 3.0, 3.5, beta and pf and I still like them and find they suit my needs. A few more rogues I want to try as the years go on.
F**k all you rogue haters! Lol.
People seem to want to compare the rogue to a fighter in combat, saying its not effective. But thats the whole thing, if you want to do damage play a fighter. If you want to be a verstile play a rogue.
Go over buildings and walls, never be weighed down by armour, tumble and shiv or close range snipe, move unseen and undetected, pick the lock, disarm (or just avoid) the trap. Awww yeaaaah.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Skills. A lot of skills for a lot of strategy. My level 14 human rogue with intelligence as the second highest stat had like 18 skill points per level. I had so many skills maxed out or at high level that i was able to do anything. Lying, does he believes me? Check. I try to convince someone to do something, do i manage? Check. I throw a smokescreen and hide, does he lose me? Check. I move out of a treathened square, do i avoid his AoO? Check. There's someone hiding, do i see him? Check. He's lying, do i understand it? Check. I disguise myself. Check. I try to steal something. Check. Knowledge. Check. Check. Check. Check. Most of the time i didn't even have to roll a dice to succeed.
And this happened in a campaign where almost everything we fought was immune to sneak attack. I was litterally useless in combat compared to our barbarian, our ranger, our monk or our bard. But nobody took a step without first asking me if it was a good choice. Felt like a lot of power without making a single HP damage directly.
EDIT: (and don't let me start on UMD.)
One of the best rogues I have ever seen was in a Cormyrean politics game. Rogue aristocrat, this guy got his hands dirty. He was the best agent of his faction and just happened to run the faction. Deep disguise work, bribery, getting gates opened. Turned upon his king (because he was disgusted by the way the country was going), carved out a little duchy, invested in defences making sure that the defences of his vale were never tested.
The guy switched sides and joined the blossoming Sembian empire. Really worthy of respect. For his people he was a genius, and he brought them immense prosperity and safety.
His name was Count De Luc. Just checked with the player.
Good point Titto. A good int gives a rogue so many skill points providing truckloads of versatility outside of combat. Have also seen rogue/swashbuckler. Good int, 10 strength and good dex. Against anything not immune to sneak, damage was good enough to hit through DR and still do good damage. Less skills than a pure rogue but still had quite a number because of the high int. Good capabilities both in and out of combat, not the hardest hitter which is fair considering the character wasn't focused on that. Thats the beauty of the rogue class. It not only gives alot of skill points but also allows a wide range of skills to be class skills for any character with even a one level dip in the rogue.
Two dips and you are into the special rogue abilities for pf.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Firstly, I'd like to point out that this is OOC for me.
Just a few questions for the rogue players out there.
The game concept - noble drow, in the underdark, in a game about intrigue, assassination and the rise to power.
The fact that Drow are very advanced, and thus magic oriented, made me think "Stealth and Disguise and other skills can make me look like a magician, but countermeasures won't work - hehehe"
In the intrigue, yes! I'm the social and espionage master of the group.
In the circumventing magic, occasionally. I think we'll see more of it when we're more on the offensive.
Well a bard would have been technically better, but again there's the reliance on magic. As someone who wants to showcase skills, I prefer the rogue simply to avoid the temptation. The ninja is a mental block (asian! not in scope!) and the Alchemist ... well we already have one in the group and she's our damage dealer (love them bombs).
Nope. I'm cruisin, getting some key kills, and being a go-to guy for alot of the game aspects.
Tlabbar makes me smile, he doesn't want the rogue to be more fighter or more wizard, he works the skills and abilities the rogue already has.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm confused...is it Rogues that suck now? Or is it still Monks?
O woe, why tis surely blaster sorcerers too.
I don't think anybody said blaster sorcerers suck, per se, just that they are mechanically not the most powerful route you could go with a sorcerer.
Now monks, on the other hand, get all the hate. Although as a GM I hate our monk because she is nigh unto invincible.
Loved reading through this thread. I don't know if TarkXT ever came up with anything solid on how to help out the Rogue, but I came up with a few house rules I will share here.
Critical Sneak Attack: Starting at 1st level Rogues (and only Rogues) add sneak attack damage on a critical hit.
Bonus Feats: At 1st, 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level. Can be Skill Focus or one of the two for one skill feats.
Defensive Combat Training: Rogues gain Defensive Combat Training as a bonus feat at 3rd level.
Dirty Infighting: At 7th level a Rogue masters the art of fighting dirty. When using a Dirty Trick, Grapple, Steal or Trip combat maneuver the Rogue’s base attack bonus from his Rogue class levels is equal to his Rogue level.
Also fixed some things like giving them Rogue level/5 (and only Rogue levels) extra uses of every Talent limited to once a day. +4 bonus to Will saves when using Slippery Mind and Hide in Plain Sight Talent gives them 3 terrains.
In addition I already have a rule that everyone gets Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers for free. If you take Weapon Finesse as a feat it adds +2 damage to finesse weapons.
Anyway, that is what I came up with after reading through this thread. Hopefully others found it useful as well.
Loved reading through this thread. I don't know if TarkXT ever came up with anything solid on how to help out the Rogue, but I came up with a few house rules I will share here.
I've a similar Rogue patch (yet to be used):
Neo2151: I have to disagree with you. I see rogues do nearly as much damage as martial characters via the feat Gang Up. Multiple rogue talents are feats (several of them combat oriented feats). With the three most common ones that will take a combat oriented rogue right through level 6 before having to choose a rogue talent that is not a combat oriented feat. At level 8 I would add a sneak attack rogue talent. At level 10 the advanced talents open up.
** spoiler omitted **
With a build like this and near constant sneak attacks (Gang Up) the rogue can do quite decent damage. Nearly as much as any of the main martial classes. Note: the Agile weapon property should be on the rogue's weapons for a significant damage boost. With one of the Rogue combat-oriented Archetypes (like Knife Master) that damage goes up.
- Gauss
Damage potential has never been a Rogue weak spot. Actually hitting the enemy is where Rogues start to falter. They have a half-way decent chance to hit with that first attack, but after that, it's just as likely (if not more so) that you're missing your attacks. Sneak Attack is worthless if you can't get it to land, after all. ;)
(As for Gang Up, it's not a bad feat, but it's important to remember that you don't count as your own ally. So you need you and two others all threatening the same enemy - I know plenty of GMs who aren't that nice about placement. :D)
According to the FAQ you do count as your ally.
Ally: Do you count as your own ally?
You count as your own ally unless otherwise stated or if doing so would make no sense or be impossible. Thus, "your allies" almost always means the same as "you and your allies."
—Sean K Reynolds, 10/12/10