Just a few questions for the rogue players out there.
Mainly what drew you to playing and enjoying the rogue class?
Does the rogue satisfy those needs?
Do you think the rogue is better or worse than relatively equivalent classes in terms of role (alchemist/ninja/bard)?
Whether yes or no why did you not play one of those classes?
What do you think could be done to improve the class in achieving the flavor you desire?
There are secret motives behind these questions and I feel this will inevitably turn into a "rogues are crap/fine" thread which is all well and good as long as there's some actual logic and discussion behind it.
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Personnally: I dabble in other classes but tend to gravitate back to the rogue class no matter what the genre. And if I am not careful, I'll fallback into roguish habits at odd times and on the other side of the screen, cursing my PC for a lack of thieves tools/skills despite being [insert non-rogue class here].
Preferentially: Tool user, not so much stealth as much as I prefer subtlety, a way to accomplish tasks without death and destruction as a first resort. After the others have come and gone, scavenging the easy pickings, my rogue may yet uncover something of value. It might be information, treasure or a passageway but to find that one thing which would otherwise remain hidden, this is really why I play rogues.
I like rogues because they offer flexibility and there's so much you can do with them, both mechanically and flavor-wise.
F'rinstance, here we have a rogue who's a vigilante focused on quarterstaff combat. Not sure where exactly I'll go with it (I don't generally pre-plan my builds), but the rogue and roof runner archetype allowed me to do what I wanted starting from level 1, as opposed to so many builds requiring dappling and getting to what you're going for at level 5 or so.
There's also trapfinders, assassins, pickpockets, con artists, and practically every other thing under the sun (or the moon) that rogues can do.
And let's not forget the legitimate businessman. Spies, guides, daredevils, and all that are also rogues, or roguish.
With the number of archetypes for the rogue, you can mix and match to get what you want. Practically all of them can sacrifice trapfinding, so if you don't want to play the typical "check the halls and doorways" rogue, there's still plenty out there.
Admittedly, the ranger has almost completely eclipsed the rogue in the way of stealthy warrior, especially with the urban ranger archetype to do well in cities, but the rogue still has a special place in my heart.
Most of the "tricks" the Rogue class offers are weak. They just don't compare to extra feats, or spellcasting ability, or the unique abilities of other classes.
In your typical dungeon delving group that is comprised of a "balanced" party that goes out and slays goblins and hunts for treasure, the Rogue is weak. Pathetically weak. Find all the traps and then twiddle your thumbs while the rest of the party does everything else. (Can't even palm extra loot, because that'll cause bad-blood out-of-character! What-ever is a thief to do??)
However, if your game isn't typical, a Rogue can do extremely well.
Magic usually trumps skill, but magic can be answered by magic rather easily, while it requires skill to trump skill. A wizard's invisibility spell can be shrugged off by a novice caster, but a stealthy Rogue probably won't be caught as easily.
Subterfuge games, political games, games where the enemies tend to stay humanoid instead of ending up as demons and undead and dragons - This is where a Rogue shines.
And let's remember: A coup-de-gras coupled with Sneak Attack will slay things even with a good Fort save. ;)
Neo2151: I have to disagree with you. I see rogues do nearly as much damage as martial characters via the feat Gang Up. Multiple rogue talents are feats (several of them combat oriented feats). With the three most common ones that will take a combat oriented rogue right through level 6 before having to choose a rogue talent that is not a combat oriented feat. At level 8 I would add a sneak attack rogue talent. At level 10 the advanced talents open up.
Talents (T) and Feats (F):
1F) TWF
2T) Finesse Rogue: Weapon Finesse
3F) Combat Expertise
4T) Combat Trick: Gang Up
5F)
6T) Weapon Training: Weapon Focus
7F)
8T) Offensive Defense*
9F) Imp. TWF
10T) Feat or Crippling Strike* or Opportunist
*only one of these abilities can be applied per attack. However, you can still use multiple abilities per round.
This leaves 2 feats for whatever else the Rogue may want to do. IF you dont like TWF then you can replace it with some other feats. However, with the +2 flanking bonus from Gang Up the penalty from TWF is balanced out.
With a build like this and near constant sneak attacks (Gang Up) the rogue can do quite decent damage. Nearly as much as any of the main martial classes. Note: the Agile weapon property should be on the rogue's weapons for a significant damage boost. With one of the Rogue combat-oriented Archetypes (like Knife Master) that damage goes up.
- Gauss
I like tactically interesting warriors. Rogues get a big tactical boost (sneak attack) for moving into flanking positions, feinting, ambushes, etc. I just find it a lot more fun to plan an attack by spending a round getting into position or whatever, as opposed to just standing there and swinging a lot.
I also like all the skills, especially if they enhance mobility or senses, or help me help the party. People skills can be pretty devastating too.
I also like the defenses, like evasion and uncanny dodge and improved uncanny dodge. Some of the advanced talents, like slippery mind and improved evasion, are pretty sweet too.
two Archetypes:
Scout and Skulking Slayer
Charging Sneak attack for 1d12+2d8+6 anyone?
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Neo2151: I have to disagree with you. I see rogues do nearly as much damage as martial characters via the feat Gang Up. Multiple rogue talents are feats (several of them combat oriented feats). With the three most common ones that will take a combat oriented rogue right through level 6 before having to choose a rogue talent that is not a combat oriented feat. At level 8 I would add a sneak attack rogue talent. At level 10 the advanced talents open up.
** spoiler omitted **
With a build like this and near constant sneak attacks (Gang Up) the rogue can do quite decent damage. Nearly as much as any of the main martial classes. Note: the Agile weapon property should be on the rogue's weapons for a significant damage boost. With one of the Rogue combat-oriented Archetypes (like Knife Master) that damage goes up.
- Gauss
Damage potential has never been a Rogue weak spot. Actually hitting the enemy is where Rogues start to falter. They have a half-way decent chance to hit with that first attack, but after that, it's just as likely (if not more so) that you're missing your attacks. Sneak Attack is worthless if you can't get it to land, after all. ;)
(As for Gang Up, it's not a bad feat, but it's important to remember that you don't count as your own ally. So you need you and two others all threatening the same enemy - I know plenty of GMs who aren't that nice about placement. :D)
Neo2151: Frankly, I find Gang Up an easy feat to satisfy the requirements for. Cleric+Tank = 2 allies. Dont want the cleric up front? Longspear.
As for attack bonuses:
10th level rogue = +7/+2. With a +7dex (16+2race+2level+4belt), +1 from Weapon Focus, +2flanking, -2TWF, +2magic weapon = 17/17/12/12
Compare that to a fighter with PA: +10BAB +7str, +2Weapon Focus, +2Weapon Training, +2magic, -3PA = 20/15
Of course, this means the rogue has spent more money than the fighter on weapons. Still, it does mean the rogue's lack of hitting isnt that bad and the extra attacks will result in a similar DPR.
- Gauss
But, your comparison falls apart when you note that we're talking about different levels of finance... :)
Not to mention, the Ftr won't always be using PA, (and who exactly is the Rogue flanking with?) so we're actually talking about 25/20 vs 17/17/13/13. And it's likely the Ftr has the feat that allows you to ignore the penalty on the first PA attack, so even if he's using it, it's +25/+17.
And if the GM wants the Ftr to actually have a challenge hitting, that's going to seriously cut into the Rog's chances of hitting. The fighter can deal with an AC32 fairly well (even when using PA), while the Rogue has a harder time hitting that with even his best attack.
And it only gets worse as the levels get higher (Fighter gets a bigger bonus from abilities/feats/Gloves of Dueling/etc. while the Rogue has pretty much tapped all his +hit resources out already.)
So people are drawn to the rogue for being tactically interesting fighters with loads of skills?
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So people are drawn to the rogue for being tactically interesting fighters with loads of skills?
In my relatively limited experience, about half the people who play rogues do so because they want to play misanthropic characters who antagonize the party and jeopardize missions ("I attempt to steal the fighters share of the loot" "I stay well out of combat and snipe ineffectively into melee" "I attempt to clean out the poor shopkeeper's cash register").
Which is unfortunate because it prejudices me against the other half, who want to play characters that contribute much-needed skills (sleight of hand, disable device) and can contribute to combat when played intelligently (hint: spending four rounds to stealth into sneak attack may not be the best use of your actions).
Note: I'm not saying that playing morally questionable characters is wrong. Just that I usually see it done without any nuance and to the party's detriment.
ETA:
This generally applies mostly to newer players, in my experience.
I have mixed feelings about my rogue, he was my first tabletop RPG character and my inauguration into pathfinder, so he's far from optimal. He doesn't dish out huge damage (I didn't invest heavily in STR since I thought most of my damage would be from DEX due to misreading "Weapon Finesse"), at one point I was running around doing 1d3-1 damage with a dagger while others are swinging for 12 dmg.
That said, when it comes to the skills I outshine them all, a low perception roll of 2 still brings me a total of 16, compared to them needing to roll over 12 to beat my check.
When it comes to social skills, I'm the one who the party turns to. More than once I've managed to talk myself out of trouble, free party members from the stocks, or (for kicks) get one of them arrested.
Beyond that, as a rogue I can plot and scheme, working behind the scenes to accomplish goals. It's the need for strategy and tactics that is appealing.
Neo2151: The rogue is using Gang Up to flank. Thus nobody else gains flanking although he does. And if the Fighter isnt using PA then his bonuses are 23/18 not 25/20. For that matter the Rogue doesnt have to use TWF. That increases his bonuses by 2. As for the fighter ignoring the PA penalty on the first attack. True, but that makes a hit that was nearly guaranteed to hit even more guaranteed to hit. No biggy.
As for AC, Table 1-1 takes care of that. A CR10 appropriate encounter has an AC of 24. A few points higher will not penalize the rogue any more than the fighter.
Honestly, it is my experience that Rogues built properly can dish out damage. Not quite as good as fighter types but reasonably enough. Unfortunately, they have to be built for it. A non-optimized rogue wont do it. A non-optimized fighter can dish out damage while a non-optimized rogue has a hard time doing so.
One other note: Reduce Person on a rogue is pure gold. For 2500 gp the rogue can be permanently reduced. +2attack, loss of 0.5dagger damage, gain of 1pt dex damage. +1AC too (usually the dex is maxed out on the armor so Im not including that bonus).
On the other hand: Enlarge Person on a Fighter with a Greatsword gives them +0attack and a damage boost of 3.5weapon and 1pt strength. And a -2AC penalty. Permanant would be problematic. :)
Proley: Add the Agile weapon property to your weapons. It will allow you to use your dex in place of your strength for damage.
- Gauss
@Gauss:
My problem with all of this is that your comparison is fairly incomplete. And is only in comparison to a fighter who wins on so many sifferent levels over the rogue it's too amusing.
Unfortunately, yes, rogues fall behind hard on the whole DPR scale. Even properly built you can still find a fighter, or alchemist, or possibly even a bard that can outpace them with fewer feats. Part of what I want to do will help address that issue. To me for a single good save, no spellcasting class with medium bab the rogue simply does not do enough in and out of combat to truly justify taking it over say, a bard or ranger. But that's not really what I'm here to debate.
TarkXT: My comparison was not intended to be in depth. It was merely a counter to the statement that Rogue attack bonuses are so below par that they cannot hit anything on secondary attacks. They can rack up bonuses that the traditional martial characters on the field will not have (+2 Flanking and +2 permanent Reduce person).
Yes, I know it is a weird idea that a rogue will get flanking but nobody else will have it. But, that is what Gang Up does. Even if the rogue uses traditional flanking that doesn't change his hit bonuses, just the allies' bonuses.
- Gauss
Nothing really, they're pretty weak.
Yes, I know it is a weird idea that a rogue will get flanking but nobody else will have it. But, that is what Gang Up does. Even if the rogue uses traditional flanking that doesn't change his hit bonuses, just the allies' bonuses.
The thing is, the Fighter can go this route too. There is nothing to stop them from taking Combat Expertise and Gang Up, and in fact they will have an easier time of it (lots of bonus feats, possibly less MAD for INT requirement). Not to mention not unable to deal reasonable damage whenever they can't get Flank, even with Gang Up. They can also go the reduce person route if they really want, using Piranha Strike, Two-Weapon Fighting, and agile weapons if they really want to. Their damage won't be as good as a Strength-based Greatsword fighter, but it will still most often be better than the Rogue's.
Beyond that, when I see a combat Rogue build, all I can think is "Why not Vivisectionist?" None of the things you have mentioned really key off of anything specific Rogue abilities other than Sneak Attack, which the Vivisectionist gets to steal. All the same Sneak Attack, but with 6 levels of pseudo-casting and mutagen to bring the hit and damage numbers up. It is the standard Rogue problem, in my opinion: if you try to specialize, someone does it better. Even if you specialize in being a generalist.
Lets look at it from a mechanical aspect. They get alot of skills and can play the urban background role very well. I notice alot of time that people constantly look at statistics over anything else "How can I always max my damage" A true rogue would look at not his damage max but how to avoid getting into a drawn out fight. Backstab usually is intended as a one shot kill to be delivered quietly to aid in stealth. If you cant one shot someone go for the finesse approach and talk your way out. More so not role a die and say o look +20 to bluff I got a 38 to my bluff and he must believe me.
Rogues to me are more about sneaking around and avoiding damage than going toe to toe in a combat situation. If you wanted that than make a martial class.
If your rogue was the main character in a book would it be worth reading about?
Also it be cool to get some examples of various rogues in our movie history to get a idea on what they more or less are. As always it comes to what kinda rogue am I. Rogues avoid damage while fighters dish it out.
Here's the three problems I have with your theory. First off is that most parties don't build around the rogues abilities to fully utilize him and therefore he lacks power. Second he does less damage even when he's trying to assassin targets than a normal fighter hitting someone. Lastly, many other classes do what you just described a lot better than the rogue.
Yes, I know it is a weird idea that a rogue will get flanking but nobody else will have it. But, that is what Gang Up does. Even if the rogue uses traditional flanking that doesn't change his hit bonuses, just the allies' bonuses.
- Gauss
Why can't anyone else have flanking? The rogue with Gang Up dosen't need to position to get the bonus, but that doesn't mean the Fighter won't take a 5-foot step to flank with whoever (the rogue or whoever else is attacking this poor mob to allow the rogue to even get his Gang Up to work.)
That's why I put that fighter's bonuses to 25/20, because with that many people on the same target, there's no reason to assume the fighter won't position to get a, basically, free +2 to hit.
Beyond that, when I see a combat Rogue build, all I can think is "Why not Vivisectionist?" None of the things you have mentioned really key off of anything specific Rogue abilities other than Sneak Attack, which the Vivisectionist gets to steal. All the same Sneak Attack, but with 6 levels of pseudo-casting and mutagen to bring the hit and damage numbers up. It is the standard Rogue problem, in my opinion: if you try to specialize, someone does it better. Even if you specialize in being a generalist.
Also, this. This is the other place Rogues suffer ("someone else does it better.")
It's a really unfair/unfortunate situation for us Rogue lovers, but until Paizo decides to start rewriting rules for a new edition, the Rogue has been pretty hard-core decommissioned. (Bard, Ninja, Vivisectionist, etc.)
Neo2151: Because the way I often see combats the martial line is just that, a line. Eventually some flanking against a BBEG occurs but oftentimes it starts off, and ends up..a line. That screws the Rogue.
It is why I often see people on these boards complaining that the rogue cannot get a sneak attack (ie: no flanking) because by the time they can move around to get flanking the creature is dead.
People cannot have it both ways. Either most of the time rogues suck because they cannot get flanking often enough. Or they don't suck because they do.
Thus: Gang up. Flanking without flanking.
With all that said, I have already stated that a properly built rogue CAN keep up with standard builds. But as other people have stated (and I agree with) in a case where there is an optimized rogue there is probably an optimized fighter outpacing the rogue.
- Gauss
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Gang Up. lol. Trap feat.
Neo2151: Because the way I often see combats the martial line is just that, a line. Eventually some flanking against a BBEG occurs but oftentimes it starts off, and ends up..a line. That screws the Rogue.
This is more of an issue of tactics and positioning rather than anything that has to do with the rogue. Battlefield control, mobility, and actual cooperation within the group are all things that solve this issue rather readily without blowing two feats on it (and since you're also going the twf and weaponfinnesse routes simultaneously that's a lot of feats).
In a sense you could argue that one of the main issues with having sneak attack as a primary means of damage is that rogues lack a good mobility option to ensure that flanks happen while they're still relevant. Some food for thought in any case.
Ravingdork, what makes it a trap feat? *ducks* :D
- Gauss
Gang Up. lol. Trap feat.
I've found Gang Up to be pretty effective when the other two threatening have reach.
It's a trap feat because if you have 3 or more characters up on a single target, odds are you are already flanking, or are a 5-foot step away from being in flanking, and are going to win readily anyway due to focus fire.
In short, the feat isn't really necessary. The situations in which it would actually grant you flanking when you wouldn't already have it are rare.
It's a trap feat because if you have 3 or more characters up on a single target, odds are you are already flanking, or are a 5-foot step away from being in flanking, and are going to win readily anyway due to focus fire.
In short, the feat isn't really necessary. The situations in which it would actually grant you flanking when you wouldn't already have it are rare.
In our case, one of the two threatening with reach is my whip-tripping archaeologist. So she's not really doing damage herself, but providing lots of AoOs and opportunities for sneak attack via Gang Up. Admittedly situational, but effective nonetheless.
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What drew me to my PFS rogue...
1)The opportunity to roll a big handful of dice from time to time
2)A large assortment of skills to choose from, most of which are useful in a PFS scenario
3) I'm a halfling. Might as well complete the sterotype
I dunno. I've always thought rogue was a fun class to play. Your mileage may vary.
Rogues can do a few things with skills that others cannot.
The flavor can be good if you build to a theme
Sneak attack damage.
Rogues can do a few things with skills that others cannot.
Like what?
Like what?Rogues can do a few things with skills that others cannot.
I'm curious to know too.
I've always liked rogues, and being that I, and possibly one other person, are optimizers in game; my group is laboring under the opinion that rogues always do incredible amounts of damage. I let them have this opinion, but I remind them that I'm really squishy (almost died twice "proving" it to them) so I will pick and choose where and when I enter combat (last big fight I jumped in after round three when the paladin charged the big bad and two henchmen. I felt that would be a good time to provide some support)
Weapon Snatcher
Rumormonger
Follow Clues
Archaeologist
Advanced Talent: At 12th level, and every four levels thereafter, an archaeologist can choose an advanced rogue talent in place of a rogue talent.
Also:
Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.
Starts adding up to big bonuses pretty quick.
Also:
Trapfinding: A rogue adds 1/2 her level to Perception skill checks made to locate traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). A rogue can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps.Starts adding up to big bonuses pretty quick.
Rangers, Alchemists, and Bards can all gain trapfinding sir.
@Nicos: Good effort though.
Reading all these, I saw the Gang Up feat talked about a lot, along with the problem with flanking (combat often turns into a line), and got a nasty idea (which I highly doubt is original, but hey).
Play a martial Skulking Slayer with a lucerne hammer. Grab Combat Expertise and Gang Up asap. In combat, if you go first, delay until your allies take on the biggie, so you've got a couple people threatening. Then, charge in. Lucerne hammer sneak attack, beeyotch! All the more powerful with Power Attack and after level 3, when you're cranking out d8 sneak attacks.
At level 3, you'd have, say, a +11 to hit (4 Str, 2 BAB, 1 masterwork/magic, 2 flanking, 2 charge), and roll 2d6+6+2d8 damage. All without Power Attack. Against an appropriate CR monster (AC 15), you'd be hitting 85% of the time. On the charge, you'd do 10-34 damage (average 23); in subsequent rounds, you'd hit 3/4 times with a +9 on your attack roll, and still be cranking out 4d6+6 damage (10-30, average 20). And with that hammer, you're behind your allies, meaning a Medium creature can't hit you, and you have cover against ranged attacks from behind the enemy line.
Of course, this is if you want to optimize. I think that honestly, rogues are a class you take if you aren't worried about optimization. There's builds for everything, and if you want to be amazing in combat, you pick something else. But the rogue is fun for other reasons.
So, what drew me to the rogue? As I said before, I just like 'em. Were I doing Society play where I know other people will be playing fighters with +ridiculous bonuses to hit, I wouldn't play a rogue; if I really wanted the feel, I'd probably go urban ranger. But I'm not an optimizer, so the rogue class is great for me.
Edit: Since we're comparing our rogues to equal-level fighters, I'll throw in a half-orc fighter here, too.
With the same concept and weapon (lucerne hammer), we have a 3rd-level half-orc fighter with the Two-Handed Fighter archetype. He has the following feats: Combat Expertise, Gang Up, Power Attack, and Weapon Focus for his hammer.
Charging in after his allies to reap the benefits of Gang Up (and in his case, Overhand Chop), the fighter gets a +12 on his charge attack(4 Str, 3 BAB, 1 masterwork/magic, 2 flanking, 2 charge, 1 Weapon Focus, -1 Power Attack), a mere +1 bonus compared to the rogue. For damage, he puts out 2d6+11 (8 Str, 3 Power Attack), dealing 13-23 damage with an average of 18. On sub-sequential rounds, this fighter has a +10 attack bonus, dealing the same damage.
*Gasp!* Looks like the rogue just handed that fighter his ass on a silver platter. How's them apples for optimization?