What drew you to the rogue?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I've always seen the rogue class as a team-playing gangsta who's good in strange situations... And most campaigns have lots of team-based combat and strange situations.

I also kinda feel like the problem with the rogue is other people. If you have a strong trip em and strip em type of warrior (or better, another rogue) to be your second, you will trounce things as a rogue. But... If your warrior/tweener/whatever as second are optimized and self-contained, kiss your viability at many combats goodbye.

The strong tendency in games I've seen is this: rogues can make non-aggressive builds (particularly fighter builds) seem powerful because of their synergy. And when paired with the attack and damage powerhouses, they don't shine much... In combat anyway.

Considering a post further up... I would like to see a mechanic that lets rogues "pilfer" minor loot items without the party's knowledge viable as a trick. That, to me, is roguish in every sense.


"Gignere" wrote:

Human Sorcerer Seeker/Sage Archetype

Str 7
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 21 (+4 headband) = 25
Wis 12
Chr 12

Traits: Slippery, Eyes and Ears of the City, Suspicious, World Traveler (Diplomacy)

Feats: Additional Traits, Spell Focus: Conjuration, Augment Summoning, Superior Summoning, Still Spell, Craft Wondrous Items

Skills:
Acrobatics 3 + 2 = 5
Appraise 1 + 3 + 7 = 11
Bluff 6 + 3 + 1 = 10
Diplomacy 4 + 3 + 1 + 1 = 9
Disable Device 7 + 3 + 2 + 4 = 16
Fly * 8 + 3 + 2 = 13
Kn: Arcana 5 + 3 + 7 + 2 = 17
Kn: Local 1 + 3 + 7 = 11
Kn: Nature* 8 + 3 + 7 = 18
Kn: Planes 6 + 3 + 7 = 16
Perception 7 + 3 + 1 + 1 + (4 traps) = 12 (16 traps)
Profession (Ventriloquist) 1 + 3 + 1 = 5
Sense Motive 4 + 3 + 1 + 1 = 9
Spellcraft 6 + 3 + 7 + 2 = 18
Stealth 7 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 13
Use Magic Device 6 + 3 + 1 = 10

*Skills from headband

Spells:
Lvl 0: Acid Splash, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Mage Hand, Mending, Message, Prestidigitation

Lvl 1: Charm Person, Ear Piercing Scream, Enlarge Person, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Silent Image, Vanish

Lvl 2: Blur, Glitterdust, False Life, Fog Cloud, Scorching Ray

Lvl 3: Fly, Haste, Summon Monster 3

Lvl 4: Dimensional Door

Also at around level 12 my sorcerer will have more skills than your rogue. Although I have nothing to duplicate your trap spotter and fast stealth talents, I think having unlimited detect magic, being able to fly all day (eventually) and having stealth at will (Blur) should count for something.

Edit: The ventriloquist profession is so I can cast spell while stealth (invis) and throw my voice.

So, I was mostly interested in seeing how a full caster could emulate rogue functions. It's a concept I might like to try someday. I am pretty much a core rulebook guy. I don't have the cash to buy a lot of books and the PRD, while a great reference resource, doesn't make interesting recreational reading. So I have lots of questions.

Things I like about the build.

  • Additional Traits Feat. Bingo! Making more skills class features. Somehow I never consider this feat at all, but it makes perfect sense.

    E&EotC for perception, although it saddles you with a LN alignment. Suspicious for sense motive. World traveler for diplomacy. I'm not familiar with slippery and couldn't find it in the PRD.

  • Skill set. You really came much closer to my skill set than I thought possible. Surpassing it in places and being just a point or two off in others. In a related note:

  • Fly! This should be a rogue class ckill. So should ride. At least ride.

  • Ventriloquist. Cute.

  • The spell list. Great choices for roguishness.

  • You do get props for fly and detect magic. See blur below.

Questions:

  • Seeker/Sage archetype. This is new territory for me so please correct me if I'm wrong. IS this a crossblooded sorcerer with seeker and sage bloodlines? Or a seeker archetype on a sage bloodline? What's going on here?

  • You've no disguise skill or spell replacement. I WIN!!! Seriously, was it just an oversight or deliberate decision? It's easy enough to fix with alter self or some such.

  • Ditto on climb skill. Spider climb replacement?

  • How does blur grant at will stealth? (Invisibility, sure. I was happy to see it made the spell list Mark II.

Thanks for making the sorcerer. I look forward to your response.


Hey, I got a couple of these!

Blur allows stealth checks to be rolled at any time during its duration, even while being observed, because it grants concealment!

It's a bit like having hide in plain sight at level 4.

Seeker is an archetype, sage is a bloodline.


1) Seeker is an archetype. Sage is a bloodline.

2) Hat of Disguise is just straight up better than the spells, due to their limited duration. Greater Hat of Disguise even gives you a stat bonus. Since he has a caster level, he could even take Craft Wondrous Item and make one for himself.

3) Err, he can fly. Why would he need climb?

4) Concealment for making stealth checks.


Ok some of these were answered by other posters but I have other comments.

You don't have to pick that trait I think there are other traits that provide perception, check the traits guide on this board. Same for the slippery trait that grants stealth as a class skill.

1) The above posters nearly got it right, they are both sorcerer archetypes, however you can take more than one archetype as long as they don't replace the same class features. So seeker/sage is a legitimate combination.

2) My goal wasn't to 100% duplicate your particular rogue build, it is to prove that it is possible to build a caster that have 90+% of what a rogue brings and still be an effective caster. So I didn't pick up disguise since I don't have as many skill points as you do and as the other posters has mentioned easy enough to make a hat of disguise since I have craft wondrous items.

3) Can't think of one situation where one would need climb over fly.

4) Concealment as mentioned above already.

Although my build is not as good at disguise, I think my sorcerer is a better scout than your rogue. Because although our stealth and perception are similar, my sorcerer actually have 3 out of the 4 knowledge skills.

So chances are my sorcerer can tell what monsters are ahead and if they are benign or dangerous, while your rogue would be mostly clueless.


Atarlost wrote:

I strongly suspect TarkXT has his own ideas about how to fix the rogue. This thread seems to be more about what about the rogue needs or doesn't need fixing.

I do. Seeing what other people think is rather helpful as it's easier to meet expectations when you know what they are. This is one of the reasons for so much of Paizo's open playtesting.

Here are some of my thoughts on a Rogue rewrite.

Static number sneak attack that is easier to set up and can crit.

Altered skill points I think it might be better if they more closely emulated Experts. Rogues can be an extremely varied bunch and I think it might be better represented in a different way.

Some spellcasting like paladins. Currently there are no arcane casters like the paladin and rangers spellcasting and in some cases magic does trump skills easily. Having some of these minor tricks available to rogues would fit very well and open up a number of excellent options previously unavilable to them.

Improved talents: The talents themselves are relatively weak with few decent choices for anything. I have plenty of ideas in that direction including some choices of ranger style type stuff without treading on anything the ranger does.


Spellcasting on rogues? Madness!

I'm not a fan of giving them spells. I'm not even sure where their magic talents come from.

Plus, the entire reason their minor magic talent only gives 3 uses per day of a cantrip is to make sure that they can't just use sneak attack with acid splash / ray of frost against touch AC. I guess if they didn't get cantrips, it could avoid that, but still...weeeird.

The one thing that should be kept is their malleability. You can make just about anything with the rogue, and none of their abilities really shoe-horn you into a role. Anything but a caster. So, for example, if they have abilities that use a mental ability score, they should get a choice of which ability score to use.


Cheapy wrote:

Spellcasting on rogues? Madness!

I'm not a fan of giving them spells. I'm not even sure where their magic talents come from.

Plus, the entire reason their minor magic talent only gives 3 uses per day of a cantrip is to make sure that they can't just use sneak attack with acid splash / ray of frost against touch AC. I guess if they didn't get cantrips, it could avoid that, but still...weeeird.

The one thing that should be kept is their malleability. You can make just about anything with the rogue, and none of their abilities really shoe-horn you into a role. Anything but a caster. So, for example, if they have abilities that use a mental ability score, they should get a choice of which ability score to use.

I really think 4 level or even 6 level casting would suit Rogues, might make them a little like arcane tricksters a bit too much. But if you gave them a limited spell list like Inquisitors with a lot of Rogue specific stuff and stuff hijacked from the normal lists I could see it work.


Cheapy wrote:

Spellcasting on rogues? Madness!

I'm not a fan of giving them spells. I'm not even sure where their magic talents come from.

Plus, the entire reason their minor magic talent only gives 3 uses per day of a cantrip is to make sure that they can't just use sneak attack with acid splash / ray of frost against touch AC. I guess if they didn't get cantrips, it could avoid that, but still...weeeird.

The one thing that should be kept is their malleability. You can make just about anything with the rogue, and none of their abilities really shoe-horn you into a role. Anything but a caster. So, for example, if they have abilities that use a mental ability score, they should get a choice of which ability score to use.

Th nice thing is that they don't have to get attack spells.

But when one thinks about it a rogue who expects a long and advanced career is going to learn a bit of magic himself and not just fake it all the time through UMD.

Besides 4th level spellcasting usually means no cantrips.


TarkXT wrote:


Some spellcasting like paladins. Currently there are no arcane casters like the paladin and rangers spellcasting and in some cases magic does trump skills easily.

Then make the rogue can use skill to trump magic, it would be an interesting "fix".


Nicos wrote:
TarkXT wrote:


Some spellcasting like paladins. Currently there are no arcane casters like the paladin and rangers spellcasting and in some cases magic does trump skills easily.

Then make the rogue can use skill to trump magic, it would be an interesting "fix".

And probably impossible to do correctly.

Skills can't make you fly.

Skills can't make you teleport.

Skills can't turn you invisible (though they come close).

It's easier to go ahead and give the rogue the spells that let them do that while giving them thigns to do with their skills that can't quite be replicated as easily with skills. There have been some rather good suggestions in this thread on how to go about doing that and I plan on following through.

In particular I liked the suggestion about using Bluff to fake being under the effects of a spell.


I like most of those ideas, TarkXT. A couple of comments, though.

The Rogue spellcasting might be weird for some people. Whatever caster stat is selected, it will hurt a subset of Rogue concepts. Additionally, it might strike people as "un-Rogue-y." Perhaps something going a bit back to the Rogue's roots in "Use Magic Device," by give them the ability to use a certain number of scrolls per day without actually consuming them?

I like Sneak Attack working with critical hits. It has always seemed weird that Rogue weapons tend towards high crit ranges, yet Rogues benefit less from them than others. However, I think set damage instead of dice might turn some people off. I've heard many people talk about how much they like rolling the piles of dice. It feels really strong, even when it actually isn't. That feeling may be worth maintaining.


Mort the Cleverly Named wrote:
Additionally, it might strike people as "un-Rogue-y."

If your profession called for everything the rogue has to put up with you'd bet that you'd want to learn a touch of the stuff yourself as extra tools. The scrolls idea is nifty but I think would suit a wizard or actual, dedicated, spellcaster better than the rogue. The rogue I have in mind is a dabbler born out of necessity, not an expert whose twisted old knowledge into new way.

Besides, the nice thing about such a feature is that it's entirely optional whether or not you do anything with it. It's not going to be vital to their combat ability and it does open up a number of possible subsets and abilities with them that would previously be locked out.

As to the feeling of power. I understand that. But, there are other classes, and other games that not only give you the satisfaction of rolling tons of dice and still being significant. In the case of rogues it's a false high I'd rather be done away with.


TarkXT wrote:
Nicos wrote:
TarkXT wrote:


Some spellcasting like paladins. Currently there are no arcane casters like the paladin and rangers spellcasting and in some cases magic does trump skills easily.

Then make the rogue can use skill to trump magic, it would be an interesting "fix".

And probably impossible to do correctly.

Skills can't make you fly.

Skills can't make you teleport.

Skills can't turn you invisible (though they come close).

It's easier to go ahead and give the rogue the spells that let them do that while giving them thigns to do with their skills that can't quite be replicated as easily with skills.

The game already have casters (or pseudo casters) that can be very roguish. I realy do not see the point of giving the rogue spellcasting capabilities.

Spells could be the easy and more expeditious way to make the rogue better but it is not a way I personaly like.

However, when you finish your modifications to the rogue it would be good if post it in the forum to see the final result.


Nicos wrote:
TarkXT wrote:
Nicos wrote:
TarkXT wrote:


Some spellcasting like paladins. Currently there are no arcane casters like the paladin and rangers spellcasting and in some cases magic does trump skills easily.

Then make the rogue can use skill to trump magic, it would be an interesting "fix".

And probably impossible to do correctly.

Skills can't make you fly.

Skills can't make you teleport.

Skills can't turn you invisible (though they come close).

It's easier to go ahead and give the rogue the spells that let them do that while giving them thigns to do with their skills that can't quite be replicated as easily with skills.

The game already have casters (or pseudo casters) that can be very roguish. I realy do not see the point of giving the rogue spellcasting capabilities.

Spells could be the easy and more expeditious way to make the rogue better but it is not a way I personaly like.

However, when you finish your modifications to the rogue it would be good if post it in the forum to see the final result.

There already is rogue spell caster. The Archeologist Bard is basic that. They get rogues talents, advanced talent, uncanny dodge, evasion, trap sense and can disable traps better than a rogue (take 10 while distracted or endangered and do it in half the time). They just don't have sneak attack and gain the rogue abilities little slower or later but have all the bard casting ability. Pretty sweet archetype if you ask me.

So I agree no need to give the rogue spell casting.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

TarkXT wrote:
Just a few questions for the rogue players out there.

Bear in mind I love the rogue, but my attempts to play rogues recently have been in short lived campaigns, so.

Quote:


Mainly what drew you to playing and enjoying the rogue class?

Usually when I play a rogue I want to do one of two things -- play a Skillmonkey/Stealth expert or play a dungeoneering jack of all trades who is NOT a spellcaster or party face and IS a team player.

Also, I'd say generally the rogue is also great as a single class or "dip class" to help round out a character concept better than many other classes.

Quote:


Does the rogue satisfy those needs?

Yes. For the Skillmonkey/Stealth expert, the number of skill points and unique rogue abilities like the Fast Stealth talent makes the rogue, or at least a character with a lot of rogue levels, ideal. Sneak Attack is also great with a Stealth build anyway--I like the opportunities with a Feint build that way as well.

For the dungeoneer team player, the combination of class skills again as well as various rogue talents that can modify certain skills in a unique way, even if circumstantially. You can also make a dungeoneer of course with the bard in a different way, but you have to finagle stuff with Versatile Performance to have as many skills (and wait till you level to get that effective), IF you are using an archetype with that ability at all. And you if I don't wish to be charismatic or a spellcaster, it's not Also, the archeologist's trapfinding abilities are comparable, but not quite as good as actual trapfinding abilities, because of the way the skill bonuses are divvied out.

Quote:


Do you think the rogue is better or worse than relatively equivalent classes in terms of role (alchemist/ninja/bard)?

For alchemist and bard, you're talking about semi-caster types. So there is a very different flavor feel. It's hard to say comparable, but I would say those classes are more or less equally fun and effective to play, in the roles I've picked for the character. I definitely think if you want a dungeoneer, I would much rather play a rogue than an alchemist. Or a stealth expert for that matter. All three are great skill monkeys in their own right, just all each in a different way. And likewise alchemists and bards are versatile with spellcasting, but the rogue is in its own way very versatile with skills and talents, and also has a almost unique ability with sneak attack ("almost" because there are a few archetypes and PrCs that offer a similar but limited advancement of sneak attack or a similar ability).

I have paid little attention to the ninja to be honest--just not interested in the fake Far East stuff from Ultimate Combat for the purposes of my own Pathfinder games (I have certainly enjoyed Far East flavored fantasy games like L5R). But then, if we want to get technical, the ninja IS a rogue--it is an alternate class, an advanced archetype of the rogue class. So I can't say the rogue is better or worse than the rogue.

Quote:
Whether yes or no why did you not play one of those classes?

Alchemists have a very specific flavor and feel that requires a very specific concept. Rogue is a broader concept class that you can use extremely effectively to reflect many different kinds of character concepts.

Usually when choosing between bard and rogue it's about whether I want to focus on spellcasting and buffing the party/self or whether I want to focus on stealth/dungeoneering/sneak attack.

Quote:


What do you think could be done to improve the class in achieving the flavor you desire?

While I really like rogue talents, and I think they do a lot for the class as an idea, there are many talents that are too circumstantial to ever be useful. I'd love to see more talents and among those talents, a more clear and consistent design where the talents can always or a least frequently be used. Some limitations are okay--I'm okay with the limits of the minor magic SLA for example. But not the stuff like "you get a +20 to bluff when the moon is waxing gibbous on a Thursday."


Despite the many archetypes that have imposed on the rogues skills and abilitys alot of people still play them and enjoy the class.For groups that dont worry about optimizing or dont feel the need to thats all that matters.I personally enjoy them.


TarkXT wrote:

...

And probably impossible to do correctly.

Skills can't make you fly.

Skills can't make you teleport.

Skills can't turn you invisible (though they come close).

It's easier to go ahead and give the rogue the spells that let them do that while giving them thigns to do with their skills that can't quite be replicated as easily with skills. There have been some rather good suggestions in this thread on how to go about doing that and I plan on following through.

In particular I liked the suggestion about using Bluff to fake being under the effects of a spell.

...

TarkXT wrote:

...

But when one thinks about it a rogue who expects a long and advanced career is going to learn a bit of magic himself and not just fake it all the time through UMD.

...

This is quite true. A little magic fits in well with the rogue. Multiclassing to get some undercuts your BAB, and I feel it's hard enough to hit with a 3/4 BAB as it is.

Arcane trickster looks cool, but the entry requiremnts are steep and it may be too much spell-wise. Some day I'll play one.


Derivous wrote:

Hey, I got a couple of these!

Blur allows stealth checks to be rolled at any time during its duration, even while being observed, because it grants concealment!

It's a bit like having hide in plain sight at level 4.

Seeker is an archetype, sage is a bloodline.

Never thought of that. Blur just rose quite a bit in my estimation.

Aratrok wrote:

1) Seeker is an archetype. Sage is a bloodline.

2) Hat of Disguise is just straight up better than the spells, due to their limited duration. Greater Hat of Disguise even gives you a stat bonus. Since he has a caster level, he could even take Craft Wondrous Item and make one for himself.

3) Err, he can fly. Why would he need climb?

4) Concealment for making stealth checks.

Regarding fly, it's five long levels until he can.

Gignere wrote:

Ok some of these were answered by other posters but I have other comments.

You don't have to pick that trait I think there are other traits that provide perception, check the traits guide on this board. Same for the slippery trait that grants stealth as a class skill.

1) The above posters nearly got it right, they are both sorcerer archetypes, however you can take more than one archetype as long as they don't replace the same class features. So seeker/sage is a legitimate combination.

2) My goal wasn't to 100% duplicate your particular rogue build, it is to prove that it is possible to build a caster that have 90+% of what a rogue brings and still be an effective caster. So I didn't pick up disguise since I don't have as many skill points as you do and as the other posters has mentioned easy enough to make a hat of disguise since I have craft wondrous items.

3) Can't think of one situation where one would need climb over fly.

4) Concealment as mentioned above already.

Although my build is not as good at disguise, I think my sorcerer is a better scout than your rogue. Because although our stealth and perception are similar, my sorcerer actually have 3 out of the 4 knowledge skills.

So chances are my sorcerer can tell what monsters are ahead and if they are benign or dangerous, while your rogue would be mostly clueless.

2)Understand that you weren't 100% recreating my build. I was just wondering about the rationale behind the choices.

3) See comment above. 5 levels until flight is available is a long time.

4) That use of blur idea is very clever.

I noticed the additional knowledge skills. I should have listed them as one of the things I really liked about the build in my previous post. Knowledge is power.

Thanks to all three of you, but especially Gignere.


therealthom wrote:


Regarding fly, it's five long levels until he can.

It really doesn't matter if it's five levels to fly because before 3 or 4 your chances of making climb checks over any significant surface(a tree is a 15 and a typical dungeon wall is a 20) as a Rogue is pretty awful too.

You need a +11 to +16 to do so without a chance of falling to your death, even assuming you have a climbing kit and max ranks you're only at +8 by level 3. And since Rogues building lots of Str is unlikely chances are you're just canceling out your armor penalty at best with that.

So given all that you're probably getting into the safe climb circumstances at around level 5 too in which case fly is better.


Assuming take 10, you can get those DCs fairly easily at level 1 depending on race, traits, etc.

Shadow Lodge

therealthom wrote:
Derivous wrote:

Blur allows stealth checks to be rolled at any time during its duration, even while being observed, because it grants concealment!

Never thought of that. Blur just rose quite a bit in my estimation.

You'd only be able to stealth while blurred and observed if you make a bluff check for the distraction.

If the sorceror, at level 3, is in a situation that requires lots of climbing, he could pick up spider climb/levitate, then swap it out later. Same with alter self.

The hard part about spellcasting while scouting is doing it quietly. Luckily, it's one feat away for a spontaneous casting sorceror.


Buri wrote:
Assuming take 10, you can get those DCs fairly easily at level 1 depending on race, traits, etc.

Who can ever take 10 when it matters?


DeathQuaker: just a note, but the bard matches the rogue for skills per level at 2nd level. And they completely pull ahead at level 6.

Shadow Lodge

Cheapy: eh. The bard has a skill tax in that he is forced to use a perform skill to make use of some of his abilities. I wouldn't say that 8 skill points per level, 1 of which must be a perform skill, and 2 of which are dictated by your perform skill, is equal to 8 skill points per level.

At sixth level, where you 'pull ahead', you've spent 5 levels being bad at 2 skills you now become compentent at, or you've spent 5 levels not needing the 2 skills, or you've wasted skill points putting ranks into those 2 skills.


gnomersy wrote:
Buri wrote:
Assuming take 10, you can get those DCs fairly easily at level 1 depending on race, traits, etc.
Who can ever take 10 when it matters?

The rogue. :D

Quote:

Skill Mastery: The rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.

Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for skill mastery to apply to each time.

Though, that is an advanced talent.


Serum wrote:

Cheapy: eh. The bard has a skill tax in that he is forced to use a perform skill to make use of some of his abilities. I wouldn't say that 8 skill points per level, 1 of which must be a perform skill, and 2 of which are dictated by your perform skill, is equal to 8 skill points per level.

At sixth level, where you 'pull ahead', you've spent 5 levels being bad at 2 skills you now become compentent at, or you've spent 5 levels not needing the 2 skills, or you've wasted skill points putting ranks into those 2 skills.

Has your rogue ever taken bluff and disguise? How about diplomacy and intimidation? Diplomacy and Sense Motive?

I'm not even counting the 5 effective ranks they get from getting half their level to all knowledge skills. Every level they get half a point into 10 skills for free. If the rogue tried to do that, he'd have very poor skills elsewhere.

The bard is the undisputed master of skills. There really is no contest when you look at everything.

Shadow Lodge

Good point about the knowledge skills; that puts the bard far ahead in terms of effective bonuses. On the other hand, I don't know many rogues who put points into two separate perform skills, which shortens the bard's lead a bit.


therealthom wrote:


Regarding fly, it's five long levels until he can.

By the time climb becomes reliable, especially with my sorcerer's build (dump str) it is pretty useless. If climb is necessary I rather just scroll a spider climb or even just scroll a fly, at low levels.


Buri wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
Buri wrote:
Assuming take 10, you can get those DCs fairly easily at level 1 depending on race, traits, etc.
Who can ever take 10 when it matters?

The rogue. :D

Quote:

Skill Mastery: The rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.

Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for skill mastery to apply to each time.

Though, that is an advanced talent.

True but as you point out you need to have 10 levels of Rogue to even qualify for it and that ignores that there are other options in the Advanced Talent set which may be better or more desirable to you.

And the discussion was climb being better as a Rogue since you can't fly which means we're talking pre level 5 or so. I merely pointed out that in dangerous situations climbing may get you killed until the same level more or less after which point flight is just better.


Gignere: Climb is pretty reliable right from the start if used correctly.

Start with a level 1 character with a climb skill of 5 (1rank+3trained+1str)
Rough surface: DC25
Add pitons: Now the DC is 15.
Take 10: you now have a safe climb.

At the top use a rope, everyone else can now climb up.

Note: A climbers kit will grant a +2 circumstance bonus which should offset armor check penalties for a rogue climbing a cliff.

Yes: This does not work in combat. Then again level 1 characters are not usually faced with the need to climb a cliff face in the middle of combat. If they are that is what arrows are for.

Yes: this is not silent. Can't have everything. :)

This was only for a 1st level rogue anyhow.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

Gignere: Climb is pretty reliable right from the start if used correctly.

Start with a level 1 character with a climb skill of 5 (1rank+3trained+1str)
Rough surface: DC25
Add pitons: Now the DC is 15.
Take 10: you now have a safe climb.

At the top use a rope, everyone else can now climb up.

Note: A climbers kit will grant a +2 circumstance bonus which should offset armor check penalties for a rogue climbing a cliff.

Yes: This does not work in combat. Then again level 1 characters are not usually faced with the need to climb a cliff face in the middle of combat. If they are that is what arrows are for.

- Gauss

Climb is not a class skill for sorcerer, and my sorcerer build dump strength. I didn't say it was not good for the rogue, I just say that for my sorcerer build it makes no sense to get climb.


Gignere: True :) For your sorcerer climb will not be reliable unless you want it to be. However, most class skills can become class skills if you want them to be. You are right though, a sorcerer has other resources.

- Gauss


Gauss wrote:

Gignere: Climb is pretty reliable right from the start if used correctly.

Start with a level 1 character with a climb skill of 5 (1rank+3trained+1str)
Rough surface: DC25
Add pitons: Now the DC is 15.
Take 10: you now have a safe climb.

At the top use a rope, everyone else can now climb up.

Note: A climbers kit will grant a +2 circumstance bonus which should offset armor check penalties for a rogue climbing a cliff.

Yes: This does not work in combat. Then again level 1 characters are not usually faced with the need to climb a cliff face in the middle of combat. If they are that is what arrows are for.

Yes: this is not silent. Can't have everything. :)

This was only for a 1st level rogue anyhow.

- Gauss

Not silent requires something like 10 pitons on hand. And takes you a minute per square you want to go upwards. It's risky business and if something further along decides to see what that loud clanking noise has been for the past 10 minutes you're in a bad bad place for a fight.


Gnomersy: Didnt I state most of that already? Great to see you repeat my points. :)

- Gauss

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Serum wrote:

Cheapy: eh. The bard has a skill tax in that he is forced to use a perform skill to make use of some of his abilities. I wouldn't say that 8 skill points per level, 1 of which must be a perform skill, and 2 of which are dictated by your perform skill, is equal to 8 skill points per level.

At sixth level, where you 'pull ahead', you've spent 5 levels being bad at 2 skills you now become compentent at, or you've spent 5 levels not needing the 2 skills, or you've wasted skill points putting ranks into those 2 skills.

This, and as a note to Cheapy, I had noted what I felt were the limitations of Versatile Performance in my original post, so I'd appreciate it if you'd read more carefully next time before picking an argument making it sound like I didn't acknowledge something I in fact did. The thing is you have to have the bard to level a lot and spend his versatile performance skill points to catch up. If you play a high level campaign, great. If you play a low level, slow leveling campaign, a bard doesn't "keep up" in the same way. And there's something to be said for just straightforward-up having more skill points rather than trying to calculate to-be class bonuses as you level and hope you built the character right to benefit from slowly scaling class abilities.

Also, I like that I don't have to fluff why my character is an actor just because I want him to be good at bluffing and diplomacy (or whatever Perform Act grants, I am not looking it up right now), I can just say he's good at bluffing and diplomacy. At first level, even.

I'll also note that I never said the bard didn't make a good skillmonkey (I noted that they do). I said that I liked the rogue for playing a skillmonkey who was not spellcasting/buff oriented.

For the record, I am in fact an enormous bard fan and have been for oh... about 24 years now, counting multiple editions. So not ever gonna undercut what the bard is capable of. And versatile performance IS a neat ability and it does allow the bard to be, indeed, versatile with skills in a way that is, simply, different to the rogue.

Also, while we're on the subject, a lot of bard archetypes lose either versatile performance or bardic knowledge or both. Rogue archetypes never lose skill points and the class skills they have (at least that I can recall), and they never lose rogue talents many of which enhance skills (in fairness, the archeologist gains a few rogue talents, but also loses versatile performance--sure, to get its trapfindingesque bonuses to Disable and Perc to find traps, but it "loses" the "extra skills" granted by that ability). So sure, a vanilla bard and some archetypes can eventually, after leveling, sort of match the rogue if you distributed your skill points right. But not all bards have the option. Just something to take into consideration (or for the OP to take into consideration for his secret project, at least if he is still reading the thread).

((As an aside, I did misremember archeologist trapfinding in my first post, it works better than what I remember.))

Cheapy wrote:


Has your rogue ever taken bluff and disguise? How about diplomacy and intimidation? Diplomacy and Sense Motive?

Yes, yes, and yes (though not all five skills necessarily in the same character build, because of concept). Especially because there are some great rogue talents that work with these skills. Next question.


Gauss wrote:

Gnomersy: Didnt I state most of that already? Great to see you repeat my points. :)

- Gauss

Har har. But not quite. You did note some of them however you neglected to mention the raw number of pitons you'll be carrying(a possible issue with a low strength score as well as a possible planning failure point), the amount of time the climb would take, as well as the likelyhood of the act actually inducing combat depending on how much of a realist your DM is.

The more likely the DM is to roll you into combat for spending 10 minutes clanking up a wall the more hazardous and likely death inducing the act of climbing in that fashion becomes.

Not saying it's impossible or useless just saying it's something to think over before using the method.


True, but this was just a 1st level example. There are other ways to decrease the DCs or improve your chances.

- Gauss


Let's see...

Climb 11/12: (2 or 3 Wisdom in the Flesh) + (1 rank) + (3 trained) + (2 climber's kit) + (3 skill focus)

No ACP. Roll twice take better. Instant retry on failure. At level 1 if human taking Extra Talent with human feat. Depending on interpretation by GM, could be 13 or 14 if he thinks Wall Scramble give +2 because of Nimble Climber.

Quote:
Wisdom in the Flesh (LN): Your hours of meditation on inner perfection and the nature of strength and speed allows you to focus your thoughts to achieve things your body might not normally be able to do on its own. Select any Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity-based skill. You make checks with that skill using your Wisdom modifier instead of the skill's normal ability score. That skill is always a class skill for you.
Quote:
Expert Acrobat (Ex): At 1st level, an acrobat does not suffer any armor check penalties on Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Sleight of Hand, or Stealth skill checks while wearing light armor. When she is not wearing armor, she gains a +2 competency bonus on Acrobatics and Fly skill checks. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Quote:
Nimble Climber (Ex): When a rogue with this talent fails a Climb check by 5 or more, she can immediately make another Climb check at the surface's base DC +10. If successful, she stops her fall by clinging onto the surface. The rogue does not take falling damage when she stops her fall in this manner.
Quote:
Wall Scramble (Ex): A rogue with this talent rolls twice when making Climb checks and takes the better of the two rolls. If she already rolls twice while making a Climb check because of another ability or effect, she gains a +2 insight bonus on both of those rolls instead. If the rogue is under the effect of a spell or ability that forces her to roll two dice and take the worse result, she only needs to roll 1d20 while making Climb checks.


And Buri just proved my point (albeit a niche point). Thank you Buri.

- Gauss

Edit: Or maybe not. Ahhh well. :)


Buri wrote:

Let's see...

Climb 11/12: (2 or 3 Wisdom in the Flesh) + (1 rank) + (3 trained) + (2 climber's kit) + (3 skill focus)

No ACP. Roll twice take better. Instant retry on failure. At level 1 if human taking Extra Talent with human feat. Depending on interpretation by GM, could be 13 or 14 if he thinks Wall Scramble give +2 because of Nimble Climber.

Quote:
Wisdom in the Flesh (LN): Your hours of meditation on inner perfection and the nature of strength and speed allows you to focus your thoughts to achieve things your body might not normally be able to do on its own. Select any Strength, Constitution, or Dexterity-based skill. You make checks with that skill using your Wisdom modifier instead of the skill's normal ability score. That skill is always a class skill for you.
Quote:
Expert Acrobat (Ex): At 1st level, an acrobat does not suffer any armor check penalties on Acrobatics, Climb, Fly, Sleight of Hand, or Stealth skill checks while wearing light armor. When she is not wearing armor, she gains a +2 competency bonus on Acrobatics and Fly skill checks. This ability replaces trapfinding.
Quote:
Nimble Climber (Ex): When a rogue with this talent fails a Climb check by 5 or more, she can immediately make another Climb check at the surface's base DC +10. If successful, she stops her fall by clinging onto the surface. The rogue does not take falling damage when she stops her fall in this manner.
Quote:
Wall Scramble (Ex): A rogue with this talent rolls twice when making Climb checks and takes the better of the two rolls. If she already rolls twice while making a Climb check because of another ability or effect, she gains a +2 insight bonus on both of those rolls instead. If the rogue is under the effect of a spell or ability that forces her to roll two dice and take the worse result, she only needs to roll 1d20 while making Climb checks.

You don't have talents until level 2 so you can't take Extra Talent just for starters and that means both Nimble Climber and Wall Scramble aren't options at level one.

Expert Acrobat replaces Trapfinding one of the only hold outs the Rogue still has as far as limited availability roles so you can take it but it's frequently a bad idea but obviously that depends on the game and other characters.

Wisdom in the Flesh looks legal though. Soooo lets say you have all that by level 3 since that's when you have feats and talents available for it while you have access to Rogue Talents at all and you're just 2 levels away from the caster getting to fly, and he already has Spider Climb if he wants it.


Gauss wrote:

And Buri just proved my point (albeit a niche point). Thank you Buri.

- Gauss

He got jack and sh*t and jack just left town. See gnomersy's post above mine.


And here I felt special for a moment. :(

Though, the rogue can do that and the wizard can take spider climb at the same level. Actually the rogue can do it at level 2 by sacrificing one talent or the other. I'd take Nimble Climber first. Neither of the talents modifies the actual result unless the GM rules Wall Scramble like I mentioned.

Also, since that's the case with talents, a human still has a free feat slot. I'd take Athletic which would make the min result 13 or 14 depending on that Wis mod. Even better, if I do say so myself. So, if the GM rules Wall Scramble that way it'd be 15/16 ish.

Or you could take Sure Grasp and ensure that +2 from Wall Scramble and get the guaranteed roll twice at level 1.

Quote:

Sure Grasp

Your quick reflexes and skill at climbing keep you from falling to your doom.
Prerequisite: Climb 1 rank.
Benefit: Roll twice while climbing or when making a Reflex save to avoid falling, and take the higher result.


Buri wrote:
And here I felt special for a moment. :(

It's okay Buri we all feel for you. Honestly if you had Rogue Talents at level one that would be pretty swanky because some of them are worth the feat at least with as many as you get as a Human. Of course some of em still aren't worth the time but what can you do?

Edit: You're quite right you can pull it off at 2 but still you're much closer and it's not necessarily the wisest investment of resources is it? =)


You can read my edits. :)

I think I got almost the same effect. I got a high mod with roll twice and no ACP at level 1. The extra +2 comes in a level 2 or the failure retry depending on which one you want.


Buri wrote:

And here I felt special for a moment. :(

Though, the rogue can do that and the wizard can take spider climb at the same level. Actually the rogue can do it at level 2 by sacrificing one talent or the other. I'd take Nimble Climber first. Neither of the talents modifies the actual result unless the GM rules Wall Scramble like I mentioned.

Also, since that's the case with talents, a human still has a free feat slot. I'd take Athletic which would make the min result 13 or 14 depending on that Wis mod. Even better, if I do say so myself. So, if the GM rules Wall Scramble that way it'd be 15/16 ish.

Or you could take Sure Grasp and ensure that +2 from Wall Scramble and get the guaranteed roll twice at level 1.

Quote:

Sure Grasp

Your quick reflexes and skill at climbing keep you from falling to your doom.
Prerequisite: Climb 1 rank.
Benefit: Roll twice while climbing or when making a Reflex save to avoid falling, and take the higher result.

It's not worth it. Most obstacles at low levels that require a climb can be done better by the BSF (Big stupid fighter). So save your talents, just carry a potion of spider climb for emergencies at level 2. For a wizard or sorcerer I would just carry a scroll.


Potions and scrolls are fairly spendy for level 2.

Sure, the heavy strength character can do climb checks as well but that ACP is going to kill a heavily armored character especially at level 1.


Buri wrote:

Potions and scrolls are fairly spendy for level 2.

Sure, the heavy strength character can do climb checks as well but that ACP is going to kill a heavily armored character especially at level 1.

Too true but since we were talking about out of combat climbing it probably isn't going to make a huge difference to have him strip down before and put the armor back on once he's up at the top.


Buri wrote:

Potions and scrolls are fairly spendy for level 2.

Sure, the heavy strength character can do climb checks as well but that ACP is going to kill a heavily armored character especially at level 1.

What will a wizard/sorcerer spend their wealth on at low levels if not scrolls?


That would work, gnomersy. In combat though, I thought was the ideal. Don't take this the wrong way but that comment kinda smells like a moving goal post. :/

Wizards don't get spider climb till level 3. Sorcerers have to wait until level 4 to get 2nd level spells. Making a scroll triggers the spell. You can't make the scroll if you can't cast the spell. Even still, that'd be 150 GP per scroll. With a WBL of only 1,000, you're not exactly going to be cranking those out en masse.

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