I was looking into Psionics Unleashed and it seemed really interesting, but I was wondering if anyone who had played it could tell me how balanced it was in actual play. The restrictions on how many points you could dump into a power seemed to make things seem fair, but the DMs I play with have an aversion to psionics (mostly I think due to players not knowing or conveniently forgetting about the point cap) so it would be nice to have some input before I suggest bringing it up to one of them.
It should be ok as long as the rules are followed correctly. If the GM always has 1 or 2 encounters per day, and the players nova then it might be an issue, but a GM that provides enough of variety that the players can't nova without paying for it should not have issues.
I'd like to know this as well....
I had heard about the book for a while now, but never picked it up until I recently had a hankering for some good ol' Soulknife and heard that Dreamscarred did a GREAT job fixing them for Pathfinder.
I bought the PDF, as well as the combined PDF for their soon to be released supplement book.... and it's amazing.
Usually I steer away from any 3rd party publishing, mostly just due to stubborness...
But when Paizo (3rd party) released a better DnD 4th Edition than WoTC (IMHO), that reluctance started to cave.
The quality of the books is fantastic. The art is so-so, but the actual material is well written and they seem to be a very dedicated bunch.
Unfortunately I'll never get to use it in my usual homegame, as the GM has a long running hatred for anything not 'western fantasy' in his mind.
So no Psionics, firearms, or anything remotely asian (no monks allowed, sadly).
He's a good friend, so I allow him his prejudices because I can run a game and he can't say boo about what I allow.
Which.... I'm thinking of doing, actually, since the content reads so well.
Hearing from people that have playtested it would be great though. :)
It should be ok as long as the rules are followed correctly. If the GM always has 1 or 2 encounters per day, and the players nova then it might be an issue, but a GM that provides enough of variety that the players can't nova without paying for it should not have issues.
I thought you couldn't really 'Nova', as there are restrictions on how much PP you can spend based on your level, etc?
So they shouldn't be able to 'Nova' much more than the core spellcasters, right?
When you only have one or two encounters a day, you don't care about putting less than full points into the power. That's a Psionic Nova.
There were restrictions in 3.5 too, but you could still nova, just like you can nova with spell casters.
Nova'ing is when you blow all of your high level spells/powers. This normally happens if a player knows they can rest at will, or the GM won't have more than 1 or 2 encounters.
An example for a psion would be if he used augmented every power he used as much as he could.
For a caster it would using all of your high level spells or using metmagic to boost low level spells as much as you could.
Psions are still better at nova'ing than casters are, but not to the degree that they were in 3.5 IMHO.
With that said any GM's that can be nova'd with psions can be nova'd with casters, so I have never seen why one is problem, but not the other.
Like other folks have said, Nova-ing casters and the fifteen minute adventuring day are a problem with or without Psionics.
One of our players tried a psychic warrior in Carrion Crown, and took it out in exchange for something else pretty fast, but she ended up taking what looked to be a trap option (the natural weapons build). By the time she was ready to fight, the fight was over.
Why? "Claws of the Beast" lasts for hours, and "Bite of the Wolf" for 1 minute/level. Most of the buffs have durations of 1 minute or even 10 minutes per level.
Could it be that your recon sucked?
Howdy!
Well first, I need to admit my bias - I'm the founder of Dreamscarred Press and the writer of said Myth: The XPH Is Overpowered thread (I was Bacris on the WotC forums).
However, I've been using psionics in my 3.x games for ... wow, over 8 years. I didn't realize it had been that long...
I've found that, while there were some parts of the Expanded Psionics Handbook that had some balance issues, that by and large, it was easily balanced compared to the core rules.
In taking those rules and updating them to Pathfinder, we specifically looked for mechanical issues like those from 3.x to shore up. In addition, we did the entire book in an open playtest environment, having dozens of players and game masters using the rules in their own games and giving us feedback.
The Nova Phenomenon is certainly a potential issue in a game where 1-2 encounters per day is the norm. However, my personal experience is that a few times where 4-5 occur in a single day tends to curb that behavior quickly.
As for the Feral psychic warrior - I would have had her change her power out and see if that helped. It activates as a swift action, so no concern of setup time.
I'm really glad I got some input, and hopefully I'll actually be able to play a Psion >_<
Psionics have been balanced ever since 3.5 released Expanded Psionics.
There is no difference in power between a Psion and a caster (Wiz/Sorc). Psionics just have a smaller list of powers (vs. spells) and have a higher percentage of damage based vs. utility. There's a reason Psion's are tier 2, not tier 1.
If you are having a 'nova' problem, it's an issue with the GM's. Like others have said Wiz/Sorc have the same ability to 'nova'. It's not an issue.
What is an issue is everyone fearing them and never reading the rules, allowing players to play them without knowing the rules, or not keeping players accountable for failing to do so. If you know very little and players are fudging rules then anything can become powerful. It has nothing to do with psionics.
Psionics got a bad name from 2E. Anybody who played in those times knows the groans and facepalms it created, even when you knew the rules fully.
I had a Wilder in my Kingmaker campaign. She was well balanced in capabilities and damage output. As long as the encounters were more than 2 a day, there were not any issues, sometimes she ran out of PP, and then wasn't terribly effective, same for magic users. The top damage dealer was a spell less ranger. I actively encourage my players to use psionics if they wish. Just adds more flavor and coolness to the game. I have only seen the wilder though from level 1 to 13, no other classes, but reading through the books, not really worried.
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If my players all came to me and said they wanted to run an all-psionic party, I would grin from ear to ear.
She started with Bite of the Wolf rather than Claws of the Beast, and well, no amount of recon does much to tell you when incorporeal spirits show up and do something in the middle of dinner.Why? "Claws of the Beast" lasts for hours, and "Bite of the Wolf" for 1 minute/level. Most of the buffs have durations of 1 minute or even 10 minutes per level.
Could it be that your recon sucked?
That's one out of probably many situations. "Bite of the Wolf" wouldn't have helped much in any case here.
A Magus, or any melee spellcaster, would eencounter the same problems. That's one of the downsides these classes have.
She started with Bite of the Wolf rather than Claws of the Beast, and well, no amount of recon does much to tell you when incorporeal spirits show up and do something in the middle of dinner.Why? "Claws of the Beast" lasts for hours, and "Bite of the Wolf" for 1 minute/level. Most of the buffs have durations of 1 minute or even 10 minutes per level.
Could it be that your recon sucked?
Wrong concept for the adventure, really, and it happens for some classes in themed adventures and it's down to the adventure, not the class. The art of playing a self-buffer like the psychic warrior is preparation.
Wow, I knew whoever was in charge of the book had the right idea for psionics, but I was not expecting this.
Then again, I wasn't expecting a member of the GitP forums to join Exalted's Errata Team Prime, but there you go.
I don't have the book (might grab it as part of a larger order once RotRL is released) but did you make sure the power point limit was clearly visible to the point where no GM worth his salt could miss it?
Why not? Most game developers are just gamers ;)
And we certainly tried to make sure the power point limit was clearly visible.
In the Psionics chapter, there's a sidebar with just this:
"Manifesting and Augmenting
If you take no other rule out of this book, it is critical to remember that a manifester may not spend more power points on a power than his manifester level. This includes spending power points augmenting the power, using metapsionic feats, or effects that result in needing to pay an increased power point cost to manifest a power.
For example a 5th level manifester may only spend a total of 5 power points on any single power, while a 19th level may only spend a total of 19 power points on any single power.
Effects that allow a manifester to increase this effect, such as the Overchannel feat or a wilder’s wild surge, do so by increasing the manifester’s effective manifester level - they are still bound by this rule."
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Psionics Unleashed is so balanced that it takes 20 on its Acrobatics checks.
It's so balanced, if you "coin toss" the book, it lands on its spine, perfectly upright.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Psionics Unleashed is so balanced that it takes 20 on its Acrobatics checks.It's so balanced, if you "coin toss" the book, it lands on its spine, perfectly upright.
It's so balanced, it's the love child of Nadia Comăneci and Mary Lou Retton (Wiki links for you youngsters)
Since we're already talking about Psionics Unleashed, I had a quick rules question. I was looking at the Expanded Knowledge feat which says:
"Add to your powers known one additional power of any level up to one level lower than the highest-level power you can manifest. You can choose any power, including powers from another discipline’s list or even from another class’s list, even if that power is already on your class’s power list."
Does that mean that with the feat if a power was on my list and another classes list, but as a lower level power on their list, I could take it and use it as such? For example there's Evade Burst, which is 7th level for a Psion but 3rd level for Psychic Warrior, so I could take it as a 3rd level power when I'm able to cast 4th level effects?
If you want to spend a feat on it, yes.
No, we did not keep that rule.
No, we did not keep that rule.
Yet another reason to trust you guys. :3
Expanded Knowledge is a Must Have for Wilders, I have found.
Expanded Knowledge is a Must Have for Wilders, I have found.
It's definitely a good feat for them. One thing to remember with Wilders is they are kind of martial as well as magical. Wilders who specialize in buffs and such can rival even psychic warriors. ;3
That being said. I'm fond of expanded knowledge for psychic warriors too. And psions...and...well, Expanded Knowledge for the win. XD
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I played a Wilder (warrior path) in the Carrion Crown adventure path and I must say that on the damage dealing side of things, psionics are slightly more powerful than arcane magic. In the terms of versatility and utility, however, they are less powerful. All in all, psionics are very balanced. While I was able to do more damage than the rest of the party per "attack", I was not able to attack as much due to PP conservation. I was an adequate warrior when my power point reserve was gone, but I was no where near on par with our barbarian or fighter...:)
If my players all came to me and said they wanted to run an all-psionic party, I would grin from ear to ear.
When I found PU and the first four PE books, I actually switched over completely to psionics. I ended up removing my ban on core magic simply because of the lack of illusion and necromantic (specifically undead related necromancy) powers, and because there just isn't quite the flavor variety that is available in the core classes (due to having a larger number of extra books for them). That's all I have felt is missing from psionics. I tried pushing for a bit of an illusion-based Cryptic, but it didn't quite happen (got turned into the Distorter archetype, I believe, which is cool, but not the same).
I still greatly prefer psionics in my game, though, and simply adore the rules. There's a lot of flavor, lore, and love put into the books, and they're really balanced as long as you're able to avoid the nova issues discussed above -- but, as mentioned, that's something you want to do with the core rules anyways.
If my players all came to me and said they wanted to run an all-psionic party, I would grin from ear to ear.Some day...
Came so damn close in my current Red Hand Remix game. The party consists of...
1) Psionic Monk (the mobile tank)2) Egoist Psion (the damage sponge)
3) Wilder (strangely the controller)
4) Archivist (not sure what he's doing really)
Out of the group, the archivist has done the absolute least out of the party. Several battles have gone by that the archivist did little more than cast shield of faith on himself and heal his wounds; though he seems to like summon monster spells.
We've been using their books for psionics for a side group in my current campaign (a all goblin "spell caster" style party), and we've found them to work well, especially compaired to how some stuff was done in 3.X (I'm still a little sore from the Psionicist we had in there). Our next campaign will have a wilder as the parties main "arcade damage" person, and we're all quite looking forward to it.