Was I guilty of being a bad guest?


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So, my DM just called me up and explained that I've been kicked out of one of my DnD groups, the hosts apparently feel as if my behavior has become unacceptable and right now I guess I just need to get a second opinion.

I feel both a little guilty and a little wronged here, personally I'm more upset on principle than anything else, the campaign was just feeling...tedious? I don't know, but I wasn't really having a lot of fun and just went as something to do, so I don't care as badly about being forced out as I possibly could be. Maybe my apathy contributed to my poor behavior?

So, the reasons cited were:

1. Forgot to pay my share for Pizza.

In total, this happened 3 times this year (we've only met 3 times this year) and it's never happened before. I've been playing with this group for 1 and 1/2 years. The first meet this year I didn't have any money with me so I asked if I could just pay next time, so, next time rolls around (3 months later) and I just forgot to pay at all, hosts never reminded me about my debt or asked to collect pizza money so it slipped my mind. Same happened at my last meeting. I was never called/emailed/or talked to at any game (even by the DM) about this.

2. I was not chipping in for snacks.

This was something that I frequently did during 2011 (I usually brought chocolate donuts). I was never asked to bring snacks, I did it of my own violation. Eventually I just sort of stopped because it seemed like only I was eating them, I was never asked to continue doing this. And plenty of other members never brought snacks (although those people were absent frequently).

3. Drinking the host's milk.

The hosts did not mind this since the formation of the group, I asked at the beginning and just assumed they didn't mind from then on. Never a problem throughout 2011. Then the hosts moved further away in 2012, and they brought up that they didn't want me drinking their milk on session 1 2012 (apparently because the grocery store is further away...can't they buy more when they're there?) Alright, no big deal. I bring my own milk at the next session (amazingly I remembered). Third session I did not remember, and helped myself to some milk. Hosts never said anything.

4. Problem with cursing.

Alright, this one is actually legitimate since I have cursed, DM has asked me since the beginning not to curse. But in my defense, it isn't often. The hosts never voiced this concern to me, never said anything during the game, and only ever asked the DM to talk to me about it. And tbh I'm on pretty good behavior compared to my other DnD game which has heavy cursing.

Above all else, I feel like this whole thing just sideswiped me. I was never given any indication that my behavior was being a problem beforehand (aside from the one time about the milk and the very occasional "can you not curse at the table?").

What do you think? Was I really that bad?

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Doesn't matter. You were bad enough. Maybe they didn't talk it out enough or give you a chance to change, but in the end, they decided you weren't who they wanted around. I'm sorry, it sucks, but it happens sometimes.

Sovereign Court

I think you were since several times you mention you did things they didn't want you to do. The GM is probably getting an ear full after every session from the hosts. Sucks they didn't call you on the behaviors as they happened some folks are like that. On the bright side that wasnt your only game.


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So... you want a social conventions RAW vs RAI thread?

It seems that you admit that they were right in all of their reasons and you just want us to discuss whether the reasons were bad enough to kick you out.

Sczarni

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First "his hosts decided..." Um... he went along with it. So despite his Diplomacy check working on you, consider that.

1. Never forget to chip in if asked to. It has NOTHING to do with gaming, but if they are casual friends this is just typical good guest behavior. Especially if you eat your share. Not chipping in and not eating is usually fine.

2. Sounds Bogus - did they have a "snack rotation"? And its "my own volition" not violation.

3. I know someone who would FREAK if you went into her fridge without asking EVERY TIME. But most people don't care and unless you are drinking a gallon each time I don't see why < $3 in milk would bug someone. Just being a little petty at this point (I would think you owed them more for pizza).

4. Some people don't like it. If there are kids in the house it goes without saying. And if its say "their parent's house" it may also go without saying. And if its at a PF public event it goes without saying (though occasionally one is heard).

So in sumation: Yes, you were acting horribly. You ARE NOT A HORRIBLE PERSON (well, not knowing you I can't say that for sure, but I generally presume so, and nothing you did would have upset me at all, except using violation instead of volition, lol). But your actions apparently were bad enough that they don't want you around. Se la vi.


This is an opportunity to learn a lesson about socially acceptable behavior.

Pretty much everything you mentioned is very high on my "OMG, I hope I NEVER do that" list.

But to be fair, I have an extremely low threshold of acceptable mooching behavior. I am hyper-aware of whenever I mooch anything, and if I ever do, I not only pay it back, I typically pay more than my share the next time as punishment for my lack of preparedness. People have frequently told me that I am overly concerned about such things, but I'd rather them think that than think I don't carry my own load.


Trikk wrote:

So... you want a social conventions RAW vs RAI thread?

It seems that you admit that they were right in all of their reasons and you just want us to discuss whether the reasons were bad enough to kick you out.

No. I just think they were overreacting. Is there some kind of 3 strikes law? 3 times you don't pay = getting booted?

My list of offenses that can be directly attributed to me are...

-Didn't pay 3 times (2 if you don't count the first)
-Drank the host's milk without permission once
-An occasional swear word


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Yeah ... I think you were. You failed to pay for pizza for an entire year, you drank their milk despite being told not to, and you failed to live up to their social requirements (re: swearing). The only thing you seem be in the right about is the snack situation--unless you were consistently eating snacks purchased by other people, in which case that's also a yes.


gwith the host, pay them whatever money you owe on the pizza d milk and explain in detail as to why. you might consider adding the ...the interest too..

if its the cussing, try corny ones next time.
I cuss too, but it only happens mostly when I get stressed and angry.
(Oh and cussing and cursing are different to me, might not be so to others but thats two sides of mouthing off)

bottom line.

I'd say ... just from this and not knowing you personally.

yes and no.

I try not to mouth off in front of people's children, but then it was other people's children who taught me to use that kind og language.

So if you mouthed off n front of or in earshot of someone's kids than your vulgar and rude, not bad but it would be bad enough to kick you out of a group if the host took offense.

the milk... Well just remember, its always best to ask first and continue to ask each time efore going into someone elses refridgerator.

write a letter of appology, pay up for the pizza and whatever else you may owe them for. maybe the host will forgive you and let you back in, maybe he wont either way stop the language and just say something cheasey instead, like Bane's Bloody Balls( his weapon was to be treated like a flail if anyone ever asks).


Who cares about them? Move on and forget they exist.


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CommandoDude wrote:

No. I just think they were overreacting. Is there some kind of 3 strikes law? 3 times you don't pay = getting booted?

My list of offenses that can be directly attributed to me are...

-Didn't pay 3 times (2 if you don't count the first)
-Drank the host's milk without permission once
-An occasional swear word

You're either being hyper-defensive about this or you're completely socially inept.

Not paying for a meal and still eating your share of it is acceptable once with the "forgot" excuse. The second time you're taking advantage of me and being rude. Eating less than your share is expected, if I even let you have any of my food. The third time I would take it as a direct insult and assume that you would never pay for your meal again as long as I'm there.

How exactly did you expect to get something to eat if you didn't bring any money? Do you often leave your house, planning on staying away for an extended period of time, with no means of sustenance? I mean, you are an adult right? You take care of yourself and make sure you don't starve or dehydrate on a daily basis?

This has nothing to do with the actual cost of the food and whether or not I can pay for it, but rather the fact that you have decided without asking me that I should treat you to things that you want. This is the same reason as the milk-mooching by the way. It doesn't matter how much it costs or how much work it is to replace it, but the fact that you don't respect other people's property.

Picture it the other way around: what if you had paid for pizza 3 times and they forgot to order it 3 times in a row? What if you pitched in for milk and snacks and they just kept the money because they "forgot" to buy it every time?

This is of course not to say that me and my group hasn't paid for people before. There's always certain kinds of people who, despite making as much or more than everyone else, never has any money. You pay for their food, with the understanding between you that it is what you're doing. It's not a loan and you're not paying me back. I'm simply treating you out of my own free will because you are a good player and a good friend (and you suck with money).

Not allowing swearing is simply foreign to me, so I won't comment on that. I doubt I could get along with people who can't handle normal everyday speech and would require me to put on a professional face at a social gathering with friends like that. Nobody I've met, besides religious fundamentalists, has an aversion to swearing in a casual environment.


pathar wrote:
Yeah ... I think you were. You failed to pay for pizza for an entire year

No, I failed to pay 3 times. And I only really forgot twice.

Quote:
you drank their milk despite being told not to

You're right, I did. Once.

Quote:
you failed to live up to their social requirements (re: swearing)

I was good enough about it that it wasn't an issue for 1 and 1/2 years.

Quote:
Who cares about them? Move on and forget they exist.

I like to think the fact that I care shows that I'm not some callous freeloader who really was a bad guest.


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Yeah, sounds reasonable to me. (Not that I'd have kicked you out, but I know plenty of people who would have).

Swearing in a house of people who have asked you not to is pretty bad.
Drinking milk (or similar) in someone's house when they've asked you not to is annoying. No doubt it fed into a pre-existing annoyance.
Not paying for pizza in 1 year out of a year and a half is pretty bad too, to be frank. (Did I misunderstand that?)

It sounds to me that there was some sort of unspoken agreement about sharing snack costs. If nobody ever told you that's probably a case of blame-each-way. It seems obvious to me that everyone should offer to chip in, rather than waiting to be asked. Less egregious than the others, of course.

Ultimately (as your other curse-laden group demonstrates) there isnt really a rule. None of that would get you asked not to return to my house, but my wife would give me an earful each time you left. Different people have different expectations.


CommandoDude wrote:
pathar wrote:
Yeah ... I think you were. You failed to pay for pizza for an entire year

No, I failed to pay 3 times. And I only really forgot twice.

Quote:
you drank their milk despite being told not to

You're right, I did. Once.

Quote:
you failed to live up to their social requirements (re: swearing)

I was good enough about it that it wasn't an issue for 1 and 1/2 years.

Quote:
Who cares about them? Move on and forget they exist.
I like to think the fact that I care shows that I'm not some callous freeloader who really was a bad guest.

They think you're the bad guest, that's why they fired you from the group. Why waste time on unforgiving people as such. If I were you I would build my own empire.


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CommandoDude wrote:
pathar wrote:
Yeah ... I think you were. You failed to pay for pizza for an entire year

No, I failed to pay 3 times. And I only really forgot twice.

Quote:
you drank their milk despite being told not to

You're right, I did. Once.

Quote:
you failed to live up to their social requirements (re: swearing)

I was good enough about it that it wasn't an issue for 1 and 1/2 years.

Quote:
Who cares about them? Move on and forget they exist.
I like to think the fact that I care shows that I'm not some callous freeloader who really was a bad guest.

I think the fact that you just did the point-by-point chop up on this dude's post speaks volumes. I'm not entirely convinced that you're not a hopeless case when I see that sort of thing.

So, kids: here goes;
don't cuss round people who don't cotton to that saucy talk.
and
don't take people's stuff out of their refrigerator before they invite you to do so,
and
don't take people's stuff out of their refrigerator when they ask you NOT to do so.

Don't be like Mr. Bungle, kids!!!


Trikk wrote:
Not paying for a meal and still eating your share of it is acceptable once with the "forgot" excuse. The second time you're taking advantage of me and being rude. Eating less than your share is expected, if I even let you have any of my food. The third time I would take it as a direct insult and assume that you would never pay for your meal again as long as I'm there.

Did you actually read my post? I only forgot twice. And if you were seriously concerned about me mooching, would you not say something about it? Like, "Hey you owe me money for the last game?"

Quote:
How exactly did you expect to get something to eat if you didn't bring any money? Do you often leave your house, planning on staying away for an extended period of time, with no means of sustenance? I mean, you are an adult right? You take care of yourself and make sure you don't starve or dehydrate on a daily basis?

Please, like that hasn't happened to you every once in awhile, where you thought you had cash on you only to open your wallet and see it empty, or with only half the amount you thought you had?

Quote:
This has nothing to do with the actual cost of the food and whether or not I can pay for it, but rather the fact that you have decided without asking me that I should treat you to things that you want. This is the same reason as the milk-mooching by the way. It doesn't matter how much it costs or how much work it is to replace it, but the fact that you don't respect other people's property.

One slip up is enough to get me labeled as a mil-moocher? Wow, if I'm being overly defensive, you must be being overly offensive.

Quote:
Picture it the other way around: what if you had paid for pizza 3 times and they forgot to order it 3 times in a row? What if you pitched in for milk and snacks and they just kept the money because they "forgot" to buy it every time?

Stop attacking a strawman and actually read the OP.

Grand Lodge

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CommandoDude wrote:
hosts never reminded me about my debt or asked to collect pizza money so it slipped my mind. Same happened at my last meeting. I was never called/emailed/or talked to at any game (even by the DM) about this.

Don't make other people keep track of your debts, That can generate bad feelings.


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CommandoDude wrote:
pathar wrote:
Yeah ... I think you were. You failed to pay for pizza for an entire year

No, I failed to pay 3 times. And I only really forgot twice.

Quote:
you drank their milk despite being told not to

You're right, I did. Once.

Quote:
you failed to live up to their social requirements (re: swearing)

I was good enough about it that it wasn't an issue for 1 and 1/2 years.

Quote:
Who cares about them? Move on and forget they exist.
I like to think the fact that I care shows that I'm not some callous freeloader who really was a bad guest.

It doesn't. Remorse after punishment does not erase the initial issue. And posting in this forum hoping for exoneration then nitpicking people's responses when it's not forthcoming is not making you look any less a bad guest.

If I believe you are guilty based on your side of the story, there's a good chance you're probably guilty. And you know it. You just want us to tell you that it's not so bad. But it is. So learn the relevant lessons and move on.


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CommandoDude wrote:
Did you actually read my post? I only forgot twice.

It seems to me you're making fine distinctions about these events when they're really socially indistinguishable:

The first time you forgot to bring any pizza money.
The second time you forgot to bring any pizza money and forgot to bring the money you owed last time. (The worst offense, in my view).
The third time you forgot all about it again.

It seems to me the main issue is that nobody spoke to you about your obligations. I'm sympathetic to that, in that if I have a problem with someone which is actually going to have consequences I feel honor-bound to talk to them about it first. Nonetheless, I dont think it's reasonable to demand or expect that friends remind you what you owe them. I think it's the debtor's responsibility when the lending is social rather than business.


pathar wrote:


It doesn't. Remorse after punishment does not erase the initial issue.

It's not about remorse after punishment. Where did I say I was remorseful of my actions? (I am, but that's not the point I was making earlier) the point I was making earlier is that I feel I've been tacked with Disproporationate Retribution.

Quote:
And posting in this forum hoping for exoneration then nitpicking people's responses when it's not forthcoming is not making you look any less a bad guest.

I didn't realize trying to elaborate my point and then defending myself from strawmen counted as nitpicking. My apologies.

Quote:
And you know it. You just want us to tell you that it's not so bad. But it is. So learn the relevant lessons and move on.

Well, if there's one thing I got out of this thread, it's that it helped me decide that I was indeed not guilty, since I know the internet has a penchant for giving people the freedom to act overly viscous when tearing into other people.

I was looking for a "Well, it was X because of Y" and to be fair, some people gave me that. Other people blasted me for being "Overly defensive"


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CommandoDude,
I don't know you, but I want to be completely honest with you since I think that's what you're looking for.
If I were you, I would i'd feel kinda bad. This is a lesson that unfortunately has hit you the hard way, and you can accept it, or reject it.
If I were hosting you, based on the things that you described, I would have serious problems with you being in my home. Adults assume that a guest in their home:
1. Has respect for those around them
2. Has respect of their customs
3. Doesn't need to be asked twice for anything

I, personally, would have spoken with you. I would want to know if:
1. You had a social disorder
2. Were taking advantage of me, my friends, and my home
3. You sincerely kept forgetting, and if you were prepared to commit to making some serious changes to you behavior.
Then again, they don't have to ask you 3 times. I think they're justified in just saying goodbye. I'm sorry this happened to you, but this is a fantastic learning experience, and I think it's great that you have already recognized the issues here. With all sincerity and desire for your well being, take this as a lesson and learn from it!

IMO, people chill out after a while. If you'd like to go back, just shoot them an email (or get it from the dm). Say that you're sorry about what has happened and that you recognize what went wrong. Tell them it won't happen again, and that you're open to feedback real-time or indirectly through email. There's still a good chance you can get back into this group.

Anyway, that's my spiel for what it's worth. Good luck!


Kybryn wrote:


I, personally, would have spoken with you. I would want to know if:
1. You had a social disorder

I was on medication for awhile to help me focus in school and to help with depression. I don't know if that counts. I was looking for an honest answer and I appreciate yours, I will be keeping an eye out at my other games.

Personally, I just feel that 1 year of good gaming should mean something against 3 bad sessions (which I didn't even know were that bad until I was suddenly booted).

I think there is also one other good thing I got out of this thread, it's that I should delete my latest Facebook status update.


Probably they just gave you a kinder subset of the real reasons they wanted you out of the group. Stop overanalyzing, learn your lesson and make it a point not to mooch going forward. If you keep complaining on the forums eventually you'll eventually get the closure you're demanding and it likely will hit home a lot harder than just "didn't help pay for snacks".

edit: ninja'd by OP.

Scarab Sages

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Gamer-guest etiquette can be tricky. The fact that ours is a social hobby means sometimes there are problems totally outside the game, often based on expectations, and it sounds like you have run afoul of this.

I am often the host of games I run and/or play in. Inf act, I'd say that's the case 90% of the time. So, I can understand what frustrations the hosts are feeling. If you were a guest at a game in my house, I would have had a talk with you at this point, but I'd have been pretty firm that you'd crossed a line, and I needed you to know you'd crossed a line. I'd also feel like I shouldn't have had to talk to you about this situation, so I'd be annoyed.

As I read your post, in the past 3 game sessions in a row you a: failed to pay for pizza. Now, I'm not sure if you failed once and then didn't pay or eat pizza the next two times, or if you failed once, then skipped pizza the next two times (neither eating nor paying).

If the former, then you are guilty of a minor transgression, but still a transgression. You essentially borrowed money on a promise to repay, and then have failed to do so twice. That's inconsiderate. The group did you a favor, with no forewarning they would need to, in feeding you. Once they approve you eating their pizza with a promise to repay, you have an extra duty to make sure you do so. Failure to live up to that not once, but twice, shows a serious lack of respect for the people who did you a favor.

If you ate pizza three game sessions in a row and never paid for it (which as I said isn't clear to me), then you are guilty of a major transgression. You compiled all the problems I just listed above with mooching, knowing you already owed folks money, and without asking if it was okay the second two times (or else, presumably, they would have "mentioned the debt," which you say didn't happen).

This is the context by which the next two points must be seen.

Over the same time period you were mooching food form the group (pizza) and failing to repay it (on two subsequent occasions), you stopped bringing your own snacks. Even if you were the only person eating your donuts, you were showing a willingness to provide. I would strongly guess the perception is that since you didn't bring the snack that you normally eat, you ate more of the snacks brought by others. Whether this is true or not is immaterial, actually.

Not bringing snacks isn't a transgression lacking an agreement to the contrary. Not bringing snacks when you are already mooching pizza and showing disrespect by failing to pay for the pizza-debt over the next two sessions makes this look much less like a matter of being very forgetful, and more like a conscious decision to eat other's food without bringing anything yourself (money for pizza, or snacks).

Then, the milk.

If you were asked not to drink the milk, and you did so anyway, you are guilty of a major transgression. You violated the rules of the host. Taken to an extreme, you stole their milk. (You took something you did not buy, and had no reasonable expectation you were welcome to). That's way beyond merely inconsiderate. It doesn't matter that it was "just" milk or that you only took it once after after you were told not to. This is not the behavior of a good guest, or even a reasonable adult.

Combine these three issues, and you stopped paying for pizza, failed to repay a debt on the next two opportunities you had to do so, stopped putting in any effort to cover the group's combined food needs, and took milk you specifically had been told you were not welcome to. No one of these things is a big deal. combined, they show a pattern of disregard and disrespect.

I can't speak to the swearing. I cuss like an injured sailor. My ability to moderate this around others is not as good as I'd like. Certainly if I had been warned about my language and then cussed on even two more occasions, I would totally understand if a group told me I was no longer welcome.

If I was both cussing and drinking milk I had been told I was not welcome to, I'd expect to be asked to leave. That is classic "bad guest" behavior.

From the sound of things, you created a tend of showing disrespect for the food (and thus labor which bought the food), and rules of your hosts. Seeing each incident as a minor transgression by itself does not give the weight of events over 3 sessions the gravity I honestly believe it deserves.

I think at the very least, repayment of pizza money and an apology for violating the clearly laid-out expectations of you hosts regarding milk and cussing are in order. After that, if you care to, you could see if that bridge is permanently burned.


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I think you were guilty, but at the same time if it was really an issue they should have spoken up. At the same time, maybe they felt like they should not have to speak up.

I would have reminded you before the game session after the 2nd time you did not pay for pizza, just to make sure you were not mooching. As for the snacks, I think that is bogus, and they are just trying to tack something one. As for the swearing I don't know the situation, nor how much it happened.

Personally I would have handled it differently if I were the host, but some people are very non-confrontational, and are not as laid back about things as I am. I am assuming you are pretty laid back about things also.

I would just chalk it up as a lesson learned, and move on.


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CommandoDude wrote:
Did you actually read my post? I only forgot twice.

Please stop nitpicking. Forgetting, not bringing money, same thing. Forgetting is actually a more reasonable excuse.

CommandoDude wrote:
And if you were seriously concerned about me mooching, would you not say something about it? Like, "Hey you owe me money for the last game?"

I would, but many people wouldn't. You seem to completely lack any sort of empathy or understanding of social situations, so I'll clue you in:

People don't want to nag. The nagging wife is an especially negative stereotype that many women hate to act as, so it's absolutely understandable that they didn't pester you about the money that you should have brought with you 3 times.

Why should they have to take upon themselves to act negatively in a situation where you are the offending party? And if you act in real life like you act here, you probably would have argued with them if you should even pay them or not. It's not a conflict that they should have to take, you should be excusing yourself to them in front of the others.

CommandoDude wrote:
Please, like that hasn't happened to you every once in awhile, where you thought you had cash on you only to open your wallet and see it empty, or with only half the amount you thought you had?

The difference here is that I repay my debt the next day, or in worst case whenever I get money for it. I might even loan from a closer friend if a more distant friend had to loan me money on the spot. I would absolutely go out of my way to get money if I forgot to bring money again, and I would feel very bad about putting someone else in the same situation again. Simply going "whatevs" and ignoring your supposed friends is violating social norms.

CommandoDude wrote:
One slip up is enough to get me labeled as a mil-moocher? Wow, if I'm being overly defensive, you must be being overly offensive.

Again, you are lacking even the most rudimentary social understanding. From your post I took it that you asked once if you could have some milk, and then drank of their milk every session from then on. Not only that, but you were expressly told not to drink the milk and you did it anyway. This is just a "WTF?" moment for me as a fellow human being. If I tell you that you cannot have something of mine and you simply take it and consume it against my will, that is simply stealing.

Now, take this together with your past history of just not caring about others money, food and even the game itself, I see little reason to keep you around. Your behavior is extremely anti-social. If you were a young child, say 10 or below, it would at least be understandable (even if it wouldn't be acceptable).

CommandoDude wrote:
Stop attacking a strawman and actually read the OP.

I'm making an analogy to attempt to explain why these social norms exist and why what you did was wrong. Now, you had plenty of time to put this down to Asperger's or some similar condition, but as it stands so far you are just a jerk with no excuse for your behavior.

Edit:

CommandoDude wrote:

Well, if there's one thing I got out of this thread, it's that it helped me decide that I was indeed not guilty, since I know the internet has a penchant for giving people the freedom to act overly viscous when tearing into other people.

I was looking for a "Well, it was X because of Y" and to be fair, some people gave me that. Other people blasted me for being "Overly defensive"

Wow. Just, wow. You decided that you were not guilty. After admitting that you did everything, you decide that you were not guilty.

You broke the most basic of social norms numerous times, without regret and without ever attempting to fix anything.

The only way you'll be able to stay in any of the other groups is if they are as socially oblivious as you are.


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Unlike in many forms of gaming, different forms of bad behavior do "stack" in real life. There are most likely many things that they left out when telling you, those things may not have been on their mind at the time, but they still weighed against you in their final decision.

Perhaps that previous year of gaming wasn't as free of strife as your remember. Just something to think about.


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CommandoDude wrote:
pathar wrote:


It doesn't. Remorse after punishment does not erase the initial issue.
It's not about remorse after punishment. Where did I say I was remorseful of my actions? (I am, but that's not the point I was making earlier) the point I was making earlier is that I feel I've been tacked with Disproporationate Retribution.

Nope. The retribution was more than proportionate. There are lots of things that you can want or even expect from others, but not demand; and the one thing that you are always in perfect right to demand is that someone leave you alone, for any reason or no reason at all. Totally inappropriate trope. You simply failed to do what it what would take for them to not exercise that universal right.

So, those questions settled -- yes you were a bad guest, and yes their response was proportional -- there are several more interesting questions remaining. Why did you do something that you didn't enjoy? (Mysterious.) Why did you treat your hosts as you did? (I have theories.) Why did they respond as they did? (Pretty easy.) And finally, how can you keep it from happening again?

(I will only respond to any of those questions if you actually ask them, since failure to ask them will communicate to me that you don't care about the answers. And by that I mean, only ask -- if you tell me your answer in the question, then that will tell me that you've made up your mind and I'd be wasting my time.)

Liberty's Edge

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Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: Read Owen's post, he is much more eloquent than I and said everything I would say.

Longer Answer:

1) Pizza. This isn't cool. At all. I'm not sure I'd kick you out of a group for it alone, but I'd make it clear the first time is on me, if it happens again you can go in the other room while the grown ups eat. And that's exactly how I'd phrase it to, if you're not going to act like an adult (ie. pay your own way) I'm not going to treat you like one.

2) Milk. This would straight up get me. You enter my house and take what's mine not only without asking but after I expressly tell you not to? Not only will you be asked to leave and not return, you'll be helped out if you are unable to find the door on your own. It doesn't matter that it is only milk, it matters that you disrespected my wishes in my own house and stole from me. I take a very dim view of theft.

3) As to the cursing, I really can't comment. I curse like a sailor but when I'm around someone I know it offends I try and edit out what I say and every time something slips out I apologize. If there are children around I just keep my mouth shut. I'd advise you do the same.


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A bit of musical interlude.

As to the actual events. Keep the following in mind:
You don't pitch in you don't partake.

Pretty simple rule to live by. You don't have money for pizza, before they order (assuming they wait for people to get there), you just say, "I forgot my money, I won't eat any."

You scratch my back, and I'll scratch yours.

The answer to people not eating your snacks is not to stop bring snacks but to either look at what people are eating and bringing some of that or just ask people what they would like you to bring.

No means no!

Someone tells you not to do something in their home, whether it is taking milk out of the fridge (I mean who really does that?), cussing, or leaving the toilet seat up, then you just don't do it. If you "forget" and still do it, it is because you decided those rules weren't important enough to you and thus didn't file it in the important area of your brain. Next time make sure you remember when someone asks you not to do something in their home.

As others have said, take this as a life learning experience. Pay back the money you owe and send an email apology to the group admitting you are wrong and hoping that sometime in the future you can play together in a game at a Con or something, no hard feelings on your part.


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pres man wrote:
A bit of musical interlude.

"Now, that, I got me some Seagram's Gin, Everybody got their cups, but they ain't chipped in"

Gin is kinda like Pizza brooo.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think they were overreacting. My friends buy me food all the time because they know I can't often afford it myself. I pitch in if I can, but I don't feel obligated to. It's the same with them. They pitch in not because there is an obligation, but because they know it makes everyone happy.

It seems strange and excessive to me that you would be kicked out for not contributing "occasionally."

As for swearing, everyone's an adult, right? Seems like it shouldn't be a big deal unless you make a habit of swearing like a sailor (which doesn't seem to be the case here).

In regards to the milk, raiding someone's fridge without permission strikes me as an obvious no-no. If I did that, even my friends would give me some incredulous frowns. Even then they wouldn't kick me out. They would probably tell me not to do it again, and possibly even have me go get them more milk if I drank a lot of theirs.


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Kybryn wrote:
pres man wrote:
A bit of musical interlude.

"Now, that, I got me some Seagram's Gin, Everybody got their cups, but they ain't chipped in"

Gin is kinda like Pizza brooo.

A little more old school musical interlude.


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In response to the OP:

Well, you got kicked out. Unless you have a solid reason to believe that they're cliqueish, drama-loving douchenozzles - reasons more solid than your own butthurt - then yeah, the very fact that you were asked to leave means you were a terrible guest. The vast majority of people, even (especially!) in our somewhat dysfunctional tribe, don't do that lightly.


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pres man wrote:

A bit of musical interlude.

If you "forget" and still do it, it is because you decided those rules weren't important enough to you and thus didn't file it in the important area of your brain. Next time make sure you remember when someone asks you not to do something in their home.

Nice post Pres, Social Etiquette for the Socially Inept, you should write a book, hosts everywhere would thank you for it!

I would like to point out just because something is important doesn't mean I'll remember it (i.e. studying for the big final and you draw blanks on test day, tax filing, where you put your plane tickets, where you put your child, etc...). Of those events, all are fairly important, but forgotten all the time. Other than that, spot on :)


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pres man wrote:
Kybryn wrote:
pres man wrote:
A bit of musical interlude.

"Now, that, I got me some Seagram's Gin, Everybody got their cups, but they ain't chipped in"

Gin is kinda like Pizza brooo.

A little more old school musical interlude.

Heidi heidi heidi ho!

pres man. I think you're comment was actually pretty substantive. You may forget to pay your car loan for whatever reason, but you'll probably start remembering when they come to repo it.


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Nimt wrote:
CommandoDude wrote:
hosts never reminded me about my debt or asked to collect pizza money so it slipped my mind. Same happened at my last meeting. I was never called/emailed/or talked to at any game (even by the DM) about this.

Don't make other people keep track of your debts, That can generate bad feelings.

And it obviously did generate said feelings. I have played host many many times. I have had bad people in my house, I no longer tolerate people who don't come across as acceptable. I always offer what's available to drink, usually water or tea, no one can just go into my fridge and grab whatever, my house isn't yours unless I tell you to feel at home.

Guests aren't always the most well behaved people...

Learn from your mistakes, and never repeat them. Obviously the cursing was offensive to your hosts, as was your lack of gamer conscience regarding buying pizza, basically by the third time you should have brought pizza to share as you walked in the house along with a gallon of milk.


*shrug* Personally it's all stuff I'd overlook because it's not terribly important but some people are kind of anal about stuff.

If I loaned somebody $5(Roughly a 1/4 share of a big pizza) and then didn't talk to them for 3 months I think it's a given that I'm not getting my $5 back.

The only really bad one was taking the milk after you were asked not to.

The cursing was an unrealistic expectation nobody doesn't curse at all unless they're insane or something of the sort and then they sub in those stupid cutesy curses like Ned Flanders.

As for chipping in for snacks at least in my group you bring your own snacks generally we share alcohol if it's brought but there's no social convention to do so.


So three sessions in 5 months....presumably the DM e-mails everyone to arrange the sessions. So is it all that hard to say "Game at Bob's this Friday at 6. CommandoDude don't forget you owe us for pizza last time, again!"? or "Commando - your shout this time". It's not as though the group was eating lobster and drinking champagne.

If you have been in the group for 18 months then there is also a bit of social etiquette required on their part to firmly, yet politely, let you know where you have stepped over the line. Sounds like you were oblivious to some of their concerns (put a few more ranks in Sense Motive with your next group).

If they are not prepared to work out a way around things, for example alternative venue if the hosts don't like your behaviour but the group as a whole likes you, then it sounds like there may be other issues at play.

Sure you did some things that some people would have issues with. But if they get upset over it without any real effort to resolve it then you are better off without them. Especially if you weren't really having fun.

I was once in a group where the host/DM got grumpy if people used his toilet for number twos!

I have often gamed with groups with uni students who don't have a lot of spare cash. I'll happily cover their pizza - paying $10 extra to help have a full night of fun is worth it.

As for the milk... what gamer drinks milk? ;)


Yeah. I think you were a bad guest. The fact that you forgot all these things multiple times doesn't really matter. Your intention doesn't matter. The end result is the same, you ate a bunch of free pizza, drank milk that you were told not to, and used words you were told not to. Your reason is that you forgot. Fine, that's enough, your forgetfulness has made you a bad guest. I personally would have made it more clear before booting you, but maybe they had other reasons than those listed, and this just made it easier.

I do find it kind of annoying though, that you come here and ask for opinions, then when people give them, you tell them they are wrong. If you have already made you mind up, and people who disagree are wrong, why are you asking for opinions at all? Seems like you already have your answer.


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Honestly, they probably just didn't like you. These reasons sound really flimsy to permanently remove someone from your social circle (you're not referring to them as friends, so I'm assuming). Don't take me wrong here, but you can't really discuss the topic without discussing the topic.

Don't focus on the "oh man I took a glass of milk" thing because if they favored you they'd just overlook it. My friends are idiots all of the time and we have arguments and I just overlook it because they're fun to play with. It's probably that they didn't like you or you rubbed them the wrong way with your conduct (being asked not to curse, cursing anyways) or you played the game wrong and they got mad. Since it's the GM who had to tell you, I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that the host put the GM up to it and that the GM wanted to let you down easy instead of just telling you to your face that everyone there hated you.

This is supported by the fact that everyone there was so socially awkward that it seems like they were too afraid or nervous to even mention to you that what you were doing was wrong. You got told not to drink the host's stuff, drank the host's stuff in front of him and he sat there saying nothing? I'm surprised they didn't stoop down to pretending to cancel the game so you'd stop showing up.


Ravingdork wrote:

I think they were overreacting. My friends buy me food all the time because they know I can't often afford it myself. I pitch in if I can, but I don't feel obligated to. It's the same with them. They pitch in not because there is an obligation, but because they know it makes everyone happy.

It seems strange and excessive to me that you would be kicked out for not contributing "occasionally."

As for swearing, everyone's an adult, right? Seems like it shouldn't be a big deal unless you make a habit of swearing like a sailor (which doesn't seem to be the case here).

In regards to the milk, raiding someone's fridge without permission strikes me as an obvious no-no. If I did that, even my friends would give me some incredulous frowns. Even then they wouldn't kick me out. They would probably tell me not to do it again, and possibly even have me go get them more milk if I drank a lot of theirs.

I don't think the OP and the host were friends. It seems like the GM is mutual friends of both of them so the host used the GM as a middle man. There may also be more to the story than what we know. Things always change when another party shows up on these boards, not that I think it will happen this time though.


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Ravingdork wrote:
I think they were overreacting. My friends buy me food all the time because they know I can't often afford it myself. I pitch in if I can, but I don't feel obligated to. It's the same with them. They pitch in not because there is an obligation, but because they know it makes everyone happy.

I am similar situation, but important part is that my co-players are aware of circumstances and it is their own initiative to feed me/allow me part of pizza while explicitly knowing that I can't chip in. I don't take what I wasn't offered first (with the exception of snacks when I GM, then I am abusing the privileges of the position shamelessly).

The one thing that I generally consider having open permission for a serving myself at homes of two different host pairs is making myself tea - both pairs have living room connected to kitchen so I can do this without wandering around. But this implicit permission is result of a few years playing with them with multiple explicit permissions granted in that time.

Quote:
As for swearing, everyone's an adult, right? Seems like it shouldn't be a big deal unless you make a habit of swearing like a sailor (which doesn't seem to be the case here).

It really depends on the degree. What is much swearing to one, will be not much to another. The people I play with don't swear much, with one of the groups have explicit no-cursing rule because the hosts 2 year son tends to grasp new words quickly and can repeat them for days thereafter.

Quote:
In regards to the milk, raiding someone's fridge without permission strikes me as an obvious no-no. If I did that, even my friends would give me some incredulous frowns. Even then they wouldn't kick me out. They would probably tell me not to do it again, and possibly even have me go get them more milk if I drank a lot of theirs.

The fridge is personal territory of the hosts until declared to be open area. We always ask the permission to use the fridge - except for one group of friends who keep a ten-pack of 1 liter milk boxes in theirs and have no problem with everyone drinking it - but even then we tend to ask at least once with single permission lasting for the reminder of the session/visit.

EDIT: It is important to note that I play with friends, knowing them for 5-12 years now. When I (very rarely) happen to play with people I am less familiar I have much stricter code of conduct.


When I am hosting i generally have a three stage rule on negative behaviour:

1st time - its me, perhaps i was not clear ok well were clear now.

2nd time - its you, were clear on the topic, it was covered the first time
you have to be responsible for your actions and adhere to our standards.

3rd time - were through, I gave you 2 chances where I subtly pulled you up on the issue and you ignored it. To bad bye.

I am not an evil host either as i tend to sub and prepare the food, but you take crud without asking that is just lame (the fact it was ok last week, it does not cost much to ask again this week).

Dark Archive

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This is a troll post right?

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Whether you feel you did wrong or not, doesn't matter. It's the host's house and the host's rules. If you want to maintain a friendship with the hosts or the GM, I recommend calling them and apologizing, making a sincere promise to change your behavior in the future (but be willing to accept they might not want you back).

Different places have different rules. I'm a very lax host, people pay for their own dinner (there's a takeaway store down the street), and bring snacks if they can but are under no obligation. I'm very good friends with my players so we subscribe to paying things forward, if someone can't pay this week we cover it, and assume they'll do the same if the roles are reversed.

That said: I don't like people going into my fridge or cupboard without asking. I don't make a lot of money so I don't just give the contents of my pantry away.


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On the positive side, you got free pizza, snacks & milk.


bigkilla wrote:
This is a troll post right?

Not necessarily. It's inflammatory because it hits hot buttons, but it's plausible. That's why my suggested questions.


Aside from all the former, I just think you didn't quite fit in, from your own words it seems you didn't really care much about the game, just seems like an overall bad vibe they got from you.

Not paying your share, lacking social courtesy (cursing) and not bringing enthousiasm to the game, it probably adds on top of eachother to paint a pretty bad image. Basically a few cons to having you in the game, no pros.

It might just be a bad snapshot of you from their perspective, just take it as a learning experience and move on.


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You are incredibly lucky! The guys who raided Odysseus's fridge without asking got slaughtered en masse! :O

In all seriousness: It does not sound like they overreacted to me. If I would have some advice for you in the future, it would be this:

-respect host's fridge; the default should be asking each time you want something that's not been set out for the guests, not asking once and assuming perpetual permission thenceforth. This will automatically avoid problems like you getting in the habit of helping yourself to things you aren't welcome to. So... try to get in the habit of asking permission each time, I guess?

-forget your money once, it's probably okay to eat on promise of repayment. If you forget more than once - especially if you both forget to repay and to pay for the new meal - eating again is going to raise hackles.

Also, at least in most places I've been it is generally the responsibility of the guests to offer to chip in if food is ordered, not of the host to ask for contributions. Even if the host is willing to cover the costs himself, failure to at least offer will be considered the mark of a bad guest.

This may not be the case with your group, but then again, it might be. And it's always best to assume things are this way until proven otherwise. For my own part I would not borrow money to order/eat out at all unless it was from a close friend, but some people do - in which case, you simply have to remember to repay your debts. Failing to repay borrowed money over a period of months is a guaranteed recipe for bad feelings, whether it was unintentional or not.

-The easiest way to deal with bringing snacks is to just ask whether the group wants you to bring snacks - and if so, what.

-On cursing, it can be difficult if that's your normal mode of speech. An apology - even a quick and casual one - when you slip up can often go a long way.

One thing I will say is that for a person who curses habitually, it can be hard to realize how much it stands out to a person who doesn't. I've seen people lose jobs over this, let alone spots in gaming groups.

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