Creating magical item for the party + small fee on the work = players uprorar?


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
dragonfire8974 wrote:
but the problem is, when the crafter crafts things for themselves, they catch up all the way

...which isn't happening if he is busy adventuring AND crafting non-stop for THREE other people.


Ravingdork wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
but the problem is, when the crafter crafts things for themselves, they catch up all the way
...which isn't happening if he is busy adventuring AND crafting non-stop for THREE other people.

you may play different games than I, but i've never had that problem. we have travel time, we have downtime, and we have investigation time. I don't know about you, but I always find the proper downtime to craft 1k of material every day. so if you don't get any downtime, then yeah, all the crafting isn't going to get done. but usually we can get a month or so between adventure arcs that are that intense that we can't get any down time. but you bring up a good limiter of crafting, downtime. if you don't get downtime, crafting doesn't really help, and charging for crafting isn't unbalancing

EDIT: that is of course until level 5 when you can get a summoner cohort while his eidolon can also create items and so you can now do 3k per day. there's lots of ways to craft everything you want


Ravingdork wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
but the problem is, when the crafter crafts things for themselves, they catch up all the way
...which isn't happening if he is busy adventuring AND crafting non-stop for THREE other people.

True but even more problematic is that the SKR post tells us that items crafted by a crafter for the crafter are only measured at crafting cost for the purposes of their own WBL. Which actually means that even if the crafter is crafting for himself as well he's still behind the WBL curve if you follow the FAQ ruling.

Essentially Barb has 2k crafter turns that into 4k barb is now at 4k WBL, Wizard has 2k he crafts it into something worth 4k market value but according to the faq he's still at 2k WBL. Barb has just saved 1 feat gained 2k WBL more than the crafter and refuses to pay because that's "unfair".


gnomersy wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
but the problem is, when the crafter crafts things for themselves, they catch up all the way
...which isn't happening if he is busy adventuring AND crafting non-stop for THREE other people.

True but even more problematic is that the FAQ tells us that items crafted by a crafter for the crafter are only measured at crafting cost for the purposes of their own WBL. Which actually means that even if the crafter is crafting for himself as well he's still behind the WBL curve if you follow the FAQ ruling.

Essentially Barb has 2k crafter turns that into 4k barb is now at 4k WBL, Wizard has 2k he crafts it into something worth 4k market value but according to the faq he's still at 2k WBL. Barb has just saved 1 feat gained 2k WBL more than the crafter and refuses to pay because that's "unfair".

actually it says crafted items counts as 1/2 for the purposes of WBL. so the barb's wealth isn't doubled.

EDIT: fixed grammar and the syntax, and the whole statement


Ravingdork wrote:

I'm just not getting it. If I charge 10% above crafting costs while making items for the other three characters in the party, it may work itself out to me having 30% more wealth than the norm.

However, everyone of them has 50% more wealth than the norm through my efforts.

Who's abusing who now?

I'm sure someone could come up with an opposing argument of equal credibility. In the end, it's all about perspective and play style, as I said earlier.

Actually you have closer to 80% above the norm the others will have about 40% above the norm after charges. You craft items for yourself too right?


dragonfire8974 wrote:


actually it says crafted items counts as 1/2 for the purposes of WBL. so the barb's wealth isn't doubled.

EDIT: fixed grammar and the syntax, and the whole statement

Really? Well fair enough then, although technically speaking the Barb still gets the advantages of the crafting+ an additional feat and therefore comes out ahead of the crafter by a fair amount.

Out of curiousity when trying to follow links on these forums does anyone else end up in random paizo goods areas instead?

EDIT: Well having read the faq in question I'd be inclined to assume that the crafter is not meant to craft for the party and is supposed to craft only for himself.


dragonfire8974 wrote:


but the problem is, when the crafter crafts things for themselves, they catch up all the way

This is only a problem if you don't think crafting feats should, by design, allow the crafter more wealth than his companions.

In the FAQ, the devs state that crafting feats are intended to increase wealth.


dragonfire8974 wrote:
actually it says crafted items counts as 1/2 for the purposes of WBL.

True, the Faq isn't written in legalese.

But it clearly intends crafters should have more gear, stating if a crafter were to "[have] the same gear value as a non-crafting character" it would "[neutralize] any advantage of having [the crafting] feat at all."

Shadow Lodge

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Quantum Steve wrote:


I've never actually played with anyone that thought getting an item at a discount wasn't a great deal, and that the crafter was entitled to a share of that.

This exactly. More importantly, this thread has made me realize that my characters should always tip the crafter, even if it's just 50gp/lvl or something.

I've also realized why paying a little for crafting is different from asking someone to pay for your use of Weapon Focus. WF gives you a +1, one time. The end. The crafter gives you the equivalent of WF+Weapon Spec+Dodge+STR. Her craft is worth far, far more to the party than your single +1 feat, or any feat that can be replicated with magic. Given that, it was probably selfish of your barbarian to take Power Attack when he could have taken a crafting feat as well. By taken a non-crafting feat, you chose to de-optimize the party, stealing potential wealth and power with your bad choices.

As a player, by the logic of "everyone should do the greatest good for the party," I have to wonder if any character who isn't crafting is really pulling their weight.

Alternately, we could appreciate that Carla Crafter took a feat that directly, not indirectly as with combat effectiveness feats, benefits other characters. What other feat directly and tangibly impacts other characters, every combat and out of combat? None that I can think of. We can show that appreciation by throwing a little pretend gold toward her pretend hard-working crafter, trusting that the GM will fudge some of the other pretend gold that we get on the next adventure to square us. A tip like that is a thank you card for saving us 45% of our pretend gold. It's polite. It's friendly. It's kind.

AD calls expecting it "jerk" behavior. I say, as someone not currently playing a crafter, non-crafter, that not doing it is rude and disrespectful. It's wiping your imaginary snot on Carla's imaginary hard work, telling her you don't appreciate it. It is, to borrow a term, "jerk behavior."

"I help her in combat" is a false equivalency, as has been demonstrated many times in this thread, and above. You survive combat more often because of her hard work, and she's still casting spells to protect you. By that logic, she's helping you twice - when she casts the fireball that saves you and when she makes you axe hit 5% more often. In other words, your character is, once again, the one not fully pulling their weight, unless they are doing something equally awesome for the party, out of combat.

I'm not saying that everyone should play crafters, just that in my future games my Good and Neutral characters will be tipping crafters either in gold or favors, because this thread has convinced me that not doing so would be an evil, and/or chaotic, act.


gnomersy wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:


actually it says crafted items counts as 1/2 for the purposes of WBL. so the barb's wealth isn't doubled.

EDIT: fixed grammar and the syntax, and the whole statement

Really? Well fair enough then, although technically speaking the Barb still gets the advantages of the crafting+ an additional feat and therefore comes out ahead of the crafter by a fair amount.

Out of curiousity when trying to follow links on these forums does anyone else end up in random paizo goods areas instead?

yeah, the barb gets the biggest advantage out of his companion taking the crafting feat. you're right about that, and the whole charging thing is between you and your party and your GM.


Revel wrote:
@dragonfire8974: I may have missed something somewhere, where is the 50% more wealth then the rest of the party coming from?

Well, I'm not Dragonfire8974, Revel, but I thought to answer this one. SKR stated that when a caster crafts, that item is figured into his WBL as cost rather than market price. Basically, if the wizard makes a +2 ring of protection for himself, instead of it counting as 8,000 gp of gear, it only counts as 4,000 gp of gear--exactly what he spent to craft it.

That doesn't apply to items he crafts for other members of his party. If he crafts a +2 battleaxe for the barbarian it costs the barbarian 4,000 gp (paid to the caster and consumed in the crafting), but counts against his WBL at the full 8,000 gp.

The problem comes when you have a DM that enforces WBL (which some do not do. I do.). The crafter can sell all of his items (slowly) and craft custom items and not come close to exceeding his WBL. He adventures, he gains more gold or items, he sells the items, he crafts more, and while the market price of his gear exceeds the WBL, it's okay because he is now using cost instead of price to figure WBL.

Eventually, it reaches a point where the craft can have up to twice as much in gear (market price) than the rest of his companions.

Master Arminas


Quantum Steve wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
actually it says crafted items counts as 1/2 for the purposes of WBL.

True, the Faq isn't written in legalese.

But it clearly intends crafters should have more gear, stating if a crafter were to "[have] the same gear value as a non-crafting character" it would "[neutralize] any advantage of having [the crafting] feat at all."

it doesn't reference other characters. the reference is to looking at crafted items at their full price would make the character look as if they had almost double their wealth which, if the treasure was reduced to bring it in line, would mean they wouldn't benefit from the crafting feat at all. but it never references that this crafter should have more items than the rest of the party, they're saying that someone who crafts items should have the benefit of the price reduction

if there is a comparison, it is to another party without any crafting, not within the party that there is a crafter


i dont see the problem with charging a tad more, personally i dont believe he should even have to ask! the points of the fighter not charging for tanking, or the cleric not charging for healing is all well and good until you realize that the wizard is still performing his standard wizardly duties on top of taking the feat investment and time to craft gear for the party at a massive discount.

in my opinion a 20% or even 50% addition to the base cost to craft the item is worthwhile when the character is still paying alot less and to compensate the crafter for going above and beyond the call of duty.


master arminas wrote:


Eventually, it reaches a point where the craft can have up to twice as much in gear (market price) than the rest of his companions.

Master Arminas

That is the extreme scenario, although, that likely won't happen unless a character devotes multiple feats, after all he has to craft all or nearly all of his gear.

It comes down to weather you think crafting feats should increase character wealth. You, as I understand it, do not; I do, so does SKR. No of us are wrong.


Vinja89 wrote:

i dont see the problem with charging a tad more, personally i dont believe he should even have to ask! the points of the fighter not charging for tanking, or the cleric not charging for healing is all well and good until you realize that the wizard is still performing his standard wizardly duties on top of taking the feat investment and time to craft gear for the party at a massive discount.

in my opinion a 20% or even 50% addition to the base cost to craft the item is worthwhile when the character is still paying alot less and to compensate the crafter for going above and beyond the call of duty.

but this sets up a giant wealth advantage for the crafter vs the rest of the party. if you don't mind that, that's between you and the other players.

as quantum steve said, and is true of me

Quantum Steve wrote:


I've never actually played with anyone that thought getting an item at a discount wasn't a great deal, and that the crafter was entitled to a share of that.

it doesn't mean i don't think it is unfair for me to be giving myself a wealth advantage above the other players. and they appreciate it


dragonfire8974 wrote:

it doesn't reference other characters. the reference is to looking at crafted items at their full price would make the character look as if they had almost double their wealth which, if the treasure was reduced to bring it in line, would mean they wouldn't benefit from the crafting feat at all. but it never references that this crafter should have more items than the rest of the party, they're saying that someone who crafts items should have the benefit of the price reduction

if there is a comparison, it is to another party without any crafting, not within the party that there is a crafter

The comparison isn't to another party, it's to a non-crafting character. The FAQ states the the intent of counting crafted items at cost is to increase the amount of gear a crafting character can have.

Otherwise,...
FAQ wrote:
... if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.

I emphasized the comparison between crafting and non-crafting characters in that quote, btw.


Quantum Steve wrote:


The comparison isn't to another party, it's to a non-crafting character. The FAQ states the the intent of counting crafted items at cost is to increase the amount of gear a crafting character can have.
Otherwise,...

FAQ wrote:
... if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
I emphasized the comparison between crafting and non-crafting characters in that quote, btw.

I understand why you interpret it that way. I don't agree with that interpretation. but i don't think that they're referencing other characters in the party, but other characters in the world if that makes sense


Doram ob'Han wrote:
stuff

that's okay, i'll forgive you taking the weapon focus because its in your character to not take the crafting feat. i'll cover your need for items cause this is a team game

EDIT: btw, i'm not going to engage you anymore unless you come to the discussion with something that isn't intentionally hyperbolic and flimsy. i'm glad to engage anyone who's really wanting to talk but that shot at AD was just plain rude

yes, the argument was both extremely exaggerated and paper thin in separate places


In my opinion, your players probably think that you're trying to take two slices of the cake, in which case the cake is the party coffers. After all, you're getting your share of the treasure and when they ask you to make them something, you're taking a portion of their treasure for yourself with which you will no doubt craft even more treasure for yourself.

Ultimately, your rule should be that you craft nothing for no one unless they pay the full crafting price of the item. Don't charge them full price, don't charge them a percentage over the cost. You guys work and live as a time. You reap and share rewards together. Giving your friends gear at no personal gain to you is only going to assure that your friends are better equipped to help you make more gold in the long run.

It would like having to work an office job where you had to buy your own $2,000 macbook before you could earn a paycheck.


dragonfire8974 wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:


The comparison isn't to another party, it's to a non-crafting character. The FAQ states the the intent of counting crafted items at cost is to increase the amount of gear a crafting character can have.
Otherwise,...

FAQ wrote:
... if you counted crafted items at their Price, the crafting character would look like she had more wealth than appropriate for her level, and the GM would have to to bring this closer to the target gear value by reducing future treasure for that character, which means eventually that character has the same gear value as a non-crafting character--in effect neutralizing any advantage of having that feat at all.
I emphasized the comparison between crafting and non-crafting characters in that quote, btw.
I understand why you interpret it that way. I don't agree with that interpretation. but i don't think that they're referencing other characters in the party, but other characters in the world if that makes sense

OK, but why would the Fighter not counting his crafted gear at half make the Wizard suck more? I don't understand that.


Golden-Esque wrote:

In my opinion, your players probably think that you're trying to take two slices of the cake, in which case the cake is the party coffers. After all, you're getting your share of the treasure and when they ask you to make them something, you're taking a portion of their treasure for yourself with which you will no doubt craft even more treasure for yourself.

Ultimately, your rule should be that you craft nothing for no one unless they pay the full crafting price of the item. Don't charge them full price, don't charge them a percentage over the cost. You guys work and live as a time. You reap and share rewards together. Giving your friends gear at no personal gain to you is only going to assure that your friends are better equipped to help you make more gold in the long run.

It would like having to work an office job where you had to buy your own $2,000 macbook before you could earn a paycheck.

I think an elegant solution is to charge full price, then split the extra money evenly between every member of the party. No one could possibly think they're getting robbed, EVERYONE gets money.


Quantum Steve wrote:


OK, but why would the Fighter not counting his crafted gear at half make the Wizard suck more? I don't understand that.

well... it doesn't. the fighter having 1/2 cost gear makes him rock more and allows the wizard to have a more specialized niche as the fighter can start taking on more of the combat burden


Quantum Steve wrote:


I think an elegant solution is to charge full price, then split the extra money evenly between every member of the party. No one could possibly think they're getting robbed, EVERYONE gets money.

means the wizard gets two shares

Shadow Lodge

dragonfire8974 wrote:
Doram ob'Han wrote:
stuff

that's okay, i'll forgive you taking the weapon focus because its in your character to not take the crafting feat. i'll cover your need for items cause this is a team game

EDIT: btw, i'm not going to engage you anymore unless you come to the discussion with something that isn't intentionally hyperbolic and flimsy. i'm glad to engage anyone who's really wanting to talk but that shot at AD was just plain rude

1) it was no more a shot than the original statement. I think belittling another character's hard work is disrespectful. It's sad to me that other people don't, and the other other people have to play with them. Sad. Calling people who think it's not "jerks" wasn't my idea, and I meant it as no more of a personal attack than AD did. I believe hm, when he says above that it's not directed at the players but at the characters, as my comment was, so I felt free to borrow the approach.

2) it's sweet of you to offer to make items for free, but I don't feel right about using you as slave labor. If you won't take direct payment I'll pay for your room and board, or any potions and scrolls that you forego making yourself because your (obvoiusly Lawful Good) character is toiling away for my benefit. I'm playing D&D, not running a sweatshop.


dragonfire8974 wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:


OK, but why would the Fighter not counting his crafted gear at half make the Wizard suck more? I don't understand that.
well... it doesn't. the fighter having 1/2 cost gear makes him rock more and allows the wizard to have a more specialized niche as the fighter can start taking on more of the combat burden

But it doesn't neutralize the Wizard's feat, which is the purpose of counting crafted items at half.

That's kinda like saying, Weapon Specialization should give the entire party +2 to damage.


dragonfire8974 wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:


I think an elegant solution is to charge full price, then split the extra money evenly between every member of the party. No one could possibly think they're getting robbed, EVERYONE gets money.
means the wizard gets two shares

how so? everyone gets 1 share.


Ravingdork wrote:

I suppose it comes down to play style.

Some people see it as a metagame issue, citing that crafting should be done at cost as a matter of out-of-game etiquette. To charge anything additional is seen as reprehensibly rude. Such people tend to argue their case by citing strictly metagame concepts of balance.

Others, see it as an in-game issue. No other item crafter IN THE WORLD has to sell his wares at cost, so why should their characters be forced to? Offering substantial discounts over the market price of said items is not only seen as perfectly acceptable, but highly generous. These people see the thought of crafting for free as something that breaks the fourth wall. They tend to argue by citing real life examples that mirror the in-game scenario as it might have played out if it didn't suddenly become an out-of-game issue.

Does that sound like a fair approximation of what is appearing in this thread?

RD: Here is the problem. You can call it metagame if you want to, others call it RAW but: All PC crafters sell for 50%. All NPC crafters sell at 100%. STupid? yep. Silly? Yep. Yields crazy results? Yup. Completely.

but its still RAW. And not metagaming. Anymore than any other rule.
Its how the world works, and the PC's would know it.
Now you may have houseruled it- which is fine. but this isn't a "lets discuss the economic ramifications of our houserules in regards to crafting items and selling them vs making them for the group" thread. sounds like a great thread- but this isn't it. Such a thread might even come up with some solutions to -this- thread. But its actually a different topic /entirely/.
Just like the discussion of any other house rule.

By RAW, PC crafters sell for half and NPC sell for 100%.
So when the PC tries to make a profit he has one way to do so. to sell to his group. Cuz they have no other choice.
they can say "well crap, this freaking jerk is charging is more than *he can charge any other creature in the world* for making it, but we have no choice because its still 10% cheaper than the guy in the Metropolis.".

And then you also come to the point that, you are trying to rip off your adventuring group. Why? Why are you doing this? Why are you trying to take their share of the wealth and put it into your pocket? Because you can?
What would you say when the barb started charging to use his feats? or the other people in the group? Would you be so gung- ho when the cleric told you he'd only heal you after a harsh fight if you gave him 10% of your share of the loot first?

I mean- whats good for the crafter is good for everyone else- isn't it?

-S


Quantum Steve wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:


OK, but why would the Fighter not counting his crafted gear at half make the Wizard suck more? I don't understand that.
well... it doesn't. the fighter having 1/2 cost gear makes him rock more and allows the wizard to have a more specialized niche as the fighter can start taking on more of the combat burden

But it doesn't neutralize the Wizard's feat, which is the purpose of counting crafted items at half.

That's kinda like saying, Weapon Specialization should give the entire party +2 to damage.

i'd liken it to spreading the wizard's feat to everyone else. because the wizard crafting items for everyone gives it to them at 1/2 cost (or the capability to at least) and thus its not just the crafter that can benefit for the 1/2 cost items

now if the fighter could give everyone the benefit of his fighter feats, they would be more powerful (still not on par with crafting, but much more powerful)

EDIT: fixed a little bit


dragonfire8974 wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:


OK, but why would the Fighter not counting his crafted gear at half make the Wizard suck more? I don't understand that.
well... it doesn't. the fighter having 1/2 cost gear makes him rock more and allows the wizard to have a more specialized niche as the fighter can start taking on more of the combat burden

But it doesn't neutralize the Wizard's feat, which is the purpose of counting crafted items at half.

That's kinda like saying, Weapon Specialization should give the entire party +2 to damage.

i'd liken it to spreading the wizard's feat to everyone else. because the wizard crafting items for everyone gives it to them at 1/2 cost (or the capability to at least) and thus its not just the crafter that can benefit for the 1/2 cost items

now if the fighter could give everyone the benefit of his fighter feats, they would be more powerful (still not on par with crafting, but much more powerful)

EDIT: fixed a little bit

So you agree that allowing the whole party to benefit from a single crafting feat is significantly more powerful than any other feat?


Quantum Steve wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:


OK, but why would the Fighter not counting his crafted gear at half make the Wizard suck more? I don't understand that.
well... it doesn't. the fighter having 1/2 cost gear makes him rock more and allows the wizard to have a more specialized niche as the fighter can start taking on more of the combat burden

But it doesn't neutralize the Wizard's feat, which is the purpose of counting crafted items at half.

That's kinda like saying, Weapon Specialization should give the entire party +2 to damage.

i'd liken it to spreading the wizard's feat to everyone else. because the wizard crafting items for everyone gives it to them at 1/2 cost (or the capability to at least) and thus its not just the crafter that can benefit for the 1/2 cost items

now if the fighter could give everyone the benefit of his fighter feats, they would be more powerful (still not on par with crafting, but much more powerful)

EDIT: fixed a little bit

So you agree that allowing the whole party to benefit from a single crafting feat is significantly more powerful than any other feat?

yes yes, very much so. crafting is hands down the most powerful feat in the game


dragonfire8974 wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:


OK, but why would the Fighter not counting his crafted gear at half make the Wizard suck more? I don't understand that.
well... it doesn't. the fighter having 1/2 cost gear makes him rock more and allows the wizard to have a more specialized niche as the fighter can start taking on more of the combat burden

Totally, the wizard now has the specialized niche of invising himself and cowering in a corner and then getting his butt back in the workshop to make the fighter more shinies after the fighter solo's the combat encounters. =P

I kid of course but based on the reading of the FAQ there is no reason to expect that the crafter would make you items at all much less give them to you at cost. In fact it seems to me that the intention is for the crafter to have more money than the rest of the party.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Selgard wrote:

By RAW, PC crafters sell for half and NPC sell for 100%.

So when the PC tries to make a profit he has one way to do so. to sell to his group. Cuz they have no other choice.
they can say "well crap, this freaking jerk is charging is more than *he can charge any other creature in the world* for making it, but we have no choice because its still 10% cheaper than the guy in the Metropolis.".

If PCs being forced to buy items at full market value is strictly RAW, then aren't the PCs getting the items from the PC crafter at cost (or even at a discount) breaking the rules? :P

Ergo, by your own interpretation, you shouldn't have your cake and eat it too.


gnomersy wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:


OK, but why would the Fighter not counting his crafted gear at half make the Wizard suck more? I don't understand that.
well... it doesn't. the fighter having 1/2 cost gear makes him rock more and allows the wizard to have a more specialized niche as the fighter can start taking on more of the combat burden

Totally, the wizard now has the specialized niche of invising himself and cowering in a corner and then getting his butt back in the workshop to make the fighter more shinies after the fighter solo's the combat encounters. =P

I kid of course but based on the reading of the FAQ there is no reason to expect that the crafter would make you items at all much less give them to you at cost. In fact it seems to me that the intention is for the crafter to have more money than the rest of the party.

this is what steve thinks too. i disagree, but i can see where you get that interpretation. I think its referencing other characters in the world, but that's me

and you know what? i've played that wizard."i don't have that many hit points, y'all with HP can fight that thing, i'll keep myself alive to make you more gear"


Selgard wrote:

RD: Here is the problem. You can call it metagame if you want to, others call it RAW but: All PC crafters sell for 50%. All NPC crafters sell at 100%. STupid? yep. Silly? Yep. Yields crazy results? Yup. Completely.

but its still RAW. And not metagaming. Anymore than any other rule.
Its how the world works, and the PC's would know it.
Now you may have houseruled it- which is fine. but this isn't a "lets discuss the economic ramifications of our houserules in regards to crafting items and selling them vs making them for the group" thread. sounds like a great thread- but this isn't it. Such a thread might even come up with some solutions to -this- thread. But its actually a different topic /entirely/.
Just like the discussion of any other house rule.

By RAW, PC crafters sell for half and NPC sell for 100%.
So when the PC tries to make a profit he has one way to do so. to sell to his group. Cuz they have no other choice.
they can say "well crap, this freaking jerk is charging is more than *he can charge any other creature in the world* for making it, but we have no choice because its still 10% cheaper than the guy in the Metropolis.".

And then you also come to the point that, you are trying to rip off your adventuring group. Why? Why are you doing this? Why are you trying to take their share of the wealth and put it into your pocket? Because you can?
What would you say when the barb started charging to use his feats? or the other people in the group? Would you be so gung- ho when the cleric told you he'd only heal you after a harsh fight if you gave him 10% of your share of the loot first?

I mean- whats good for the crafter is good for everyone else- isn't it?

-S

PRD wrote:
Price: This is the cost, in gold pieces, to purchase the item, if it is available for sale. Generally speaking, magic items can be sold by PCs for half this value.

RAW, PCs can purchace magic items at their market price. They cannot purchase items from at half price from anybody. Strictly RAW.


dragonfire8974 wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:


So you agree that allowing the whole party to benefit from a single crafting feat is significantly more powerful than any other feat?

yes yes, very much so. crafting is hands down the most powerful feat in the game

So, wouldn't it then, make sense to curtail crafting by only allowing crafted items to count at cost for the one who crafted it, rather than anyone he gives it to? See as you also agree that this is a valid interpretation of the FAQ?


Ravingdork wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
wait.... what?
Fixed it.

darn...


Quantum Steve wrote:
dragonfire8974 wrote:
Quantum Steve wrote:


So you agree that allowing the whole party to benefit from a single crafting feat is significantly more powerful than any other feat?

yes yes, very much so. crafting is hands down the most powerful feat in the game
So, wouldn't it then, make sense to curtail crafting by only allowing crafted items to count at cost for the one who crafted it, rather than anyone he gives it to? See as you also agree that this is a valid interpretation of the FAQ?

I don't agree with that interpretation, but I would understand because of the power of the feat that limitation being put on it and wouldn't object

EDIT: even with that limitation it is still the most powerful feat in the game


So barbarian gives wizard X money. Wizard turns it into a battle axe. Barbarian now has a shiny new axe. yay.

Wizard could have taken some other feat. But he didn't. he chose to take that one.

Barbarian chose his feats too.

They both contribute to combat. They both do their jobs there. Outside combat, they both contribute as they are able. Either through crafting, skill checks, guarding the room, taking watch, or whatever.

If the wizard had taken say.. quicken spell. Could he charge everyone for using it? I think everyone would say no. Clearly people think the barbarian can't charge for say- using power attack.
or the bard using his diplomancy. Or whatever.

For some strange reason though, folks are thinking that crafters- who are burning a feat- suddenly get to take money from others and pocket it.
I'm still confused by this.

Folks are getting all caught and bound up in fact that a PC has to fund the crafter with gold, and letting that tangle them into the idea that some of that gold should be funneled their way. thats no more true than the idea that the barbarian should charge the crafter to power attack the orc heading the wizard's way.
or that the cleric should charge to heal the party after the fight.

Everyone is contributing. The fact that you chose a feat that turns gold into items, while someone else chose a feat to let them heal more effectively or that other guy a feat to let him hit more often or stronger or whatever, really is immaterial to it.

I've said it before, I'll repeat it now.
Being a crafter doesn't in any shape form or fashion mean that the character gets more than their fair share of the loot. It does not.
No more than if they had taken any other feat in the game. You use your feats for the benefit of the party *just like every single other person in the group*.

*if*. *IF* your group has set it up such that you are the crafting whore or something who's locked away in a closet unablet o every have a moment of leisure and who tried to take some other feat but was denied that by the group, Then you have some reason to do it otherwise. (since they aren't treating you like a party member- but like a slave).
Unless they Are forcing you into endentured servitude though, you are owed no special compensation for using your feats and class abilities for the group. Not anymore than They are entitled to charging You for using Their feats and class abilities for the benefit of the group.

Freddy Fighter: "hey guys, What feat did you all take last level? I finally got greater weapon specialization."
Roddy Rogue: "umm I got improved willpower, now maybe I won't fail so many of those dang will saves. Also bought a cloak of res +2, that should help as well."
Cindy Crafter: "I got craft wonderous items. This is totally awesome! I get to craft most of my stuff for half price.. and say, I'll charge you all 10% extra, to get even more stuff for myself. This is awesome!.."

And we are expected to put up with that?
Not even remotely.

-S


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The fighter can choose not to use his feats if he doesn't get paid for them. He will likely die as a result.

But the crafter? He can withhold his services as well, if he isn't properly compensated.

The difference? In the latter example, the crafter doesn't die for not using his abilities. He's busy escaping while the fighter is dying for lack of magic armor.


I think SKR's post is for crafters to get the half-WBL benefit and for the rest of the group not to.

While I have to argue RAW for the sake of the argument..

man, what a book keeping night mare.
Can you imagine trying to keep track of a WBL for the group?
tracking what scrolls were found vs crafted, same with wands.
or weapons/armor that were found and then later upgraded by a crafter?
or boubht for full price from an NPC then upgraded by a PC (or vice versa).

or PC crafts an item for himself uses it for 4 levels then passes it to someone else when he gets (or makes) an upgrade.

I mean the ruling makes 100% sense if you think of it in the abstract. but in actual practical application its a book keeping nightmare.

Our group, so far as I can tell, doesn't use WBL except when someone dies and their replacement character comes in. otherwise, (as far as I know- I ain't checkin the AP) we find what we find. He may throw in some other stuff now and again, but I have no idea. (maybe he does keep track, i have no clue. he has our sheets electronically. lol)

I guess to follow it you'd need another couple boxes for (market price) (crafted value) or something to accurately track WBL.

oi.

-S


Selgard wrote:
Blah.

Interesting now what if we have Cindy Crafter who took craft wonderous items to craft shiny items for herself. Then Bruce the Barbarian walks up and says, "Hey you have craft wonderous items that's awesome you know I could use a new ring of protection +2." ... "Wait you aren't making me this stuff for free? How dare you! I'll rip your head off and poop down your neck!" ... Mmmmkay and does that make sense?


Ravingdork wrote:

The fighter can choose not to use his feats if he doesn't get paid for them. He will likely die as a result.

But the crafter? He can withhold his services as well, if he isn't properly compensated.

The difference? In the latter example, the crafter doesn't die for not using his abilities. He's busy escaping while the fighter is dying for lack of magic armor.

except GM may wanna target the vulnerable unarmored squishy.


gnomersy wrote:
Selgard wrote:
Blah.
Interesting now what if we have Cindy Crafter who took craft wonderous items to craft shiny items for herself. Then Bruce the Barbarian walks up and says, "Hey you have craft wonderous items that's awesome you know I could use a new ring of protection +2." ... "Wait you aren't making me this stuff for free? How dare you! I'll rip your head off and poop down your neck!" ... Mmmmkay and does that make sense?

how does Craft wonderous make you a ring of protection?


Ravingdork wrote:

The fighter can choose not to use his feats if he doesn't get paid for them. He will likely die as a result.

But the crafter? He can withhold his services as well, if he isn't properly compensated.

The difference? In the latter example, the crafter doesn't die for not using his abilities. He's busy escaping while the fighter is dying for lack of magic armor.

I prefer the "Tark is not a benevolent god" interpretation.

i.e. The fighter dies. The crafter has his feat cut off and is forced to make items for the badguy or new and creative torments will be invented for the sole purpose of being inflicted upon him.

And when the new party meets his broken shattered form constantly churning out +1 Falchions for the army of Demon Tentacle Orcs his eyes will have been sewn shut to keep the ravenous Pain Fly larva feasting on his twisted flesh even as they inflict it.

They will kill him out of sheer mercy.

Granted for me this is par for the course.


dragonfire8974 wrote:
gnomersy wrote:
Selgard wrote:
Blah.
Interesting now what if we have Cindy Crafter who took craft wonderous items to craft shiny items for herself. Then Bruce the Barbarian walks up and says, "Hey you have craft wonderous items that's awesome you know I could use a new ring of protection +2." ... "Wait you aren't making me this stuff for free? How dare you! I'll rip your head off and poop down your neck!" ... Mmmmkay and does that make sense?
how does Craft wonderous make you a ring of protection?

Fine an amulet of natural armor. The actual item is besides the point and we all know it.

Liberty's Edge

Quantum Steve wrote:
I think an elegant solution is to charge full price, then split the extra money evenly between every member of the party. No one could possibly think they're getting robbed, EVERYONE gets money.

You're simply milking the party for cash. Every character for the most part uses all their various skills for the party. Crafting is just one skill you possess and they do not. Any items you make ultimatly benefit you as well as them. Looking at it otherwise is pure greed.


gnomersy wrote:


Fine an amulet of natural armor. The actual item is besides the point and we all know it.

sorry. i was wondering if you were trying to make a point about the barb not worrying about what crafting feat and demanding more

but its not making the stuff for free, it is at creation cost so the character doesn't get paid twice for doing a single adventure


Ravingdork wrote:

The fighter can choose not to use his feats if he doesn't get paid for them. He will likely die as a result.

But the crafter? He can withhold his services as well, if he isn't properly compensated.

The difference? In the latter example, the crafter doesn't die for not using his abilities. He's busy escaping while the fighter is dying for lack of magic armor.

Everyone needs backup eventually. Double WBL doesn't let the guy adventure alone. When the group decides to leave the crafter to his fate unless he pays for their feat use, then it won't be the fighter who dies.

Though honestly it shouldn't come to this. If the entire party is gainst the crafter stealing from the group- that should really be enough of a hint for the crafter to get on board with the group. If not, the group would just roll without the character. One character doesn't get to dictate terms to the group. The group decides who is and isn't a member of it. (the same is true of A CE guy trying to join a LG party, or any one else deciding to buck the system the group has setup for how its going to be run).
Now if its really 1 guy railing aginst the crafter and everyone else is on the side of the crafter, then its up to the guy to decide what to do.
1) roll a crafter. 2) pay and despise the thieving crafter. 3) roll a more self serving character who isn't as much of a party player as the previous character 4) get back in the car and go home.

No one really has the right to just be a jerk. Being a jerk is defined largely by the party. One guy harrassing the crafter when the group is Ok with the crafter doing it? The one guy is the jerk.
the crafter trying to 10% dip the party when the party isn't ok with it?
The crafter is the jerk.
Its up to the guy who's going against the flow to adjust his behavior- either to change it and fit in or find a new game.

I probably fall into the "find a new game" category myself- if I talked to the crafter, I was alone in it, and he wouldn't budge. that, or make a crafter for myself and make my own stuff and not worry about the little robber baron and his 10%. But stick around in the party and let the guy steal from me? nah. That wouldn't happen. If I can't trust him not to rob me I can't trust him for anyting else either.

-S


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
dragonfire8974 wrote:

except GM may wanna target the vulnerable unarmored squishy.

What unarmered squishy? Since nobody was willing to compensate him, he spent all his time crafting stuff for himself. Getting close to a spellcaster is hard enough when they aren't decked out in rings of protection, bracers of armor, amulets of natural armor, and cloaks of resistance.

Also, if the GM is doing it just because the PC withheld crafting from the party, than he is just being a vindictive jackass who shouldn't be GMing.


gnomersy wrote:
Selgard wrote:
Blah.
Interesting now what if we have Cindy Crafter who took craft wonderous items to craft shiny items for herself. Then Bruce the Barbarian walks up and says, "Hey you have craft wonderous items that's awesome you know I could use a new ring of protection +2." ... "Wait you aren't making me this stuff for free? How dare you! I'll rip your head off and poop down your neck!" ... Mmmmkay and does that make sense?

uh. probably not? Murdering group members is only slightly worse than stealing from them and calling it a favor.

I can't tell if you were being sarcastic or actually advancing the murder of someone's character as a valid option to a crafting dispute.

-S

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