| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hi, new to Pathfinder.
Just wondering what the best way to make a character who is a master of the dagger. At first blush, a rogue seems good, but is there something I'm missing? Would a fighter be better? What archetypes, traits, or feats would work best?
I'm not looking for a full build, just some tips so I know where to look.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Knife Master - Rogue archetype
The knife master is a trained killer who specializes in close-up combat and the wave and weave of knife fighting. In her hands, daggers and other similar light blades become truly deadly instruments.
Hidden Blade
A knife master adds 1/2 her level on Sleight of Hand checks made to conceal a light blade.
This ability replaces trapfinding.
Sneak Stab (Ex)
A knife master focuses her ability to deal sneak attack damage with daggers and similar weapons to such a degree that she can deal more sneak attack damage with those weapons at the expense of sneak attacks with other weapons. When she makes a sneak attack with a dagger, kerambit, kukri, punching daggers, starknife, or swordbreaker dagger, she uses d8s to roll sneak attack damage instead of d6s. For sneak attacks with all other weapons, she uses d4s instead of d6s.
This ability is identical in all other ways to sneak attack, and supplements that ability.
Blade Sense (Ex)
At 3rd level, a knife master is so skilled in combat involving light blades that she gains a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made against her with light blades. This bonus increases by +1 for every three levels, to a maximum of +6 at 18th level.
This ability replaces trap sense.
Rogue Talents: The following rogue talents complement the knife master archetype: befuddling strike, combat trick, offensive defense, surprise attack, underhanded, and weapon training.
Advanced Talents: The following advanced rogue talents complement the knife master archetype: another day, confounding blades, deadly sneak, entanglement of blades, and unwitting ally.
Could also splash a few levels of rogue with the Master of knives archtype for the higher sneak attack dice.
ninja'd
Fighter with duelist levels works, can add some knife master or ninja levels for some versatility.
river rat trait helps damage as well
Thanks for the tips so far.
One thing I've seen as a lurker on these forums though, is general sense that the rogue really isn't that good. Or is that just me picking the few threads that the sentiment is expressed in?
A fighter will work fine for this. A ranger works fine too, if you want some more skills. A bard could work too, but Ranger is my vote. Take a look at Guide ranger or take Favored Enemy Human.
Anything a rogue can do, another class can do as well or better.
Okay, so a combination of Fighter, Ranger, and Rogue seems to be best, so I guess that makes Half-Elves the best race to pull this off, on account that they get that extra HP for favored class on more than one class. River Rat trait for a little extra damage.
Are there any feats I should be aware of, beyond Weapon Focus/Specialization and Piranha strike?
For a good damage dealer/jack of all trades dual wielding knife guy, I recommend a mix of knife master rogue(no more than 4 levels), Brawler fighter (no less than 4), and then go however you want. You'll be using punching daggers to use the brawlers amazing weapon training (+1/+3 instead of the +1/+1 a normal fighter gets) and probably pick up focus and spec punching daggers, giving you a crowd pleasing +2/+5 to hit/ to damage before any mods, beefing up your hits to make the choice to go knifey type not hurt so bad. The 2d8 sneak also doesn't hurt.
|
|
My suggested build for a Human melee-focused Weapon Master / Knife Master (Fighter/ Rogue):
Fighter/Rogue - Focused on Melee
1) F1 - Weapon Finesse, TWF, Piranha Strike
2) R1 - +1d8 Sneak
3) F2 - Weapon Focus: Dagger
4) R2 - (Evasion), Rogue TALENT
5) F3 Iron Will; WT: +1/+1
6) F4: Weapon Specialization: Dagger
7) R3 - Improved TWF; +2d8 Sneak
8) F5
9) F6 - Improved Critical, Improved Iron Will
10) F7 - CRIT FEAT?; WT: +2/+2
11) R4 - FEAT; TALENT
12) R5 - +3d8 Sneak
13) R6 - TALENT; Greater TWF
Max out your DEX and put all of your level bumps there. With a 20 pt buy I would go 20 DEX, 14 CON, 8 CHA and 10 on everything else. Make sure you keep your acrobatics maxed out, so that you can move around the battle field to ensure that you always have flank.
I am actually doing this kind of build as well but the problem that I have with the Knife Master Archtype is that it takes away trap finding which is kind of important however I found that if you took a one level dip of Ranger with the Trapper Archtype (from UM) then you can get that ability back. Of course it doesn't scale unless you take more levels of ranger it does however give you back the ability of disarming magical traps.
Right now I am playing a 1 Ranger(trapper + Urban Ranger)/ Rogue (Knife master)
I like the idea of picking up level of Fighter so that I can specialize in my knives. Actually I want to do that so I can rub it as I have been getting the comment. "Seriously? Daggers?" I wish the archetype was not so specific about what knife like weapons you can use as what they list are all low damage 1d4s.
Anyways, I am thinking of this build.
1 Ranger(trapper + Urban Ranger)/ 9 Rogue (Knife master)12 Fighter (Weapon Master)River Rat Trait (+1 with daggers)
Core Build Feats
Weapon Focus (Daggers)
Greater Weapon Focus (Daggers)
Weapon Specialization (Daggers)
Greater Weapon Specialization (Daggers)
Weapon Finesse
Improved Feint
Greater Improved Feint
Two Weapon Feint
Pin Down
Improved Trip
Greater Improved Trip
Two weapon Fighting
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Skill Focus (Bluff)
So after I get Greater Weapon Specialization and Weapon Master Bonuses raw skill damage would be +8 with an added +5 attacks which is all before BAB, Strength bonuses, Dex Bonuses (weapon finesse.
My Knife Master has a Dex of 20 and a Str of 16 so damage wise I would be seeing this with my sneak attacks: 1d4+11(SA 5d8) which may not seem like much but as a full round attack using two weapon feint I could do that 5 times in a row scoring the sneak attack damage each time I hit for an average of 33 per hit and if all attack hits then the total average would be 165 with total possible of 220 which is fairly decent I think when you consider I would just be using knifes.
As of now my character uses +1 daggers.
Another possibility is to take some dips of Vivisectionist but since this means dropping levels of fighters that means no Greater Weapon specialization. It would mean a greater sneak attack damage but also less number of feats I would gain from fighter.
So perhaps something like this.
1 Ranger(trapper + Urban Ranger)/ 4 Alchemist (Vivisectionist) 9 Rogue (Knife master)12 Fighter (Weapon Master)River Rat Trait (+1 with daggers)
Which would give a 7d8 sneak attack, be able to brew potions, apply poisons with no ill effects but would loose about 2 feats and would loose a weapon master bonus but only +1 to damage and attack.
Not sure which direction I am going to go as I would have to crunch the numbers and progression of what I take and when but that should help you with some ideas of what I have been playing around this concept.
|
|
1 level of Trapper Ranger doesn't really buy you very much, IMO. The biggest draw for the Knife Master is the d8 for damage. If the loss of Trapfinding means that much to you, just take base rogue instead of Knife Master: you're only losing an average of 1 HP of damage per die anyway.
Just FYI: River Rat is a fan-created trait: your DM may not approve.
1 level of Trapper Ranger doesn't really buy you very much, IMO. The biggest draw for the Knife Master is the d8 for damage. If the loss of Trapfinding means that much to you, just take base rogue instead of Knife Master: you're only losing an average of 1 HP of damage per die anyway.
Just FYI: River Rat is a fan-created trait: your DM may not approve.
River Rat is in the APG and has already been approved by my GM.
|
Any character focusing on daggers as main weapons should really be a small-sized character: 1d3 Vs 1d4 is only a -0.5 average damage reduction per hit, and the size bonus to attack, AC, and Stealth is more than worth that paltry loss.
With daggers, you're basically ignoring the base damage die anyway, and focusing on additions to damage to get anything out of the weapons at all, bonuses like sneak attack damage (which don't care what weapon you happen to be using) - that's the big bonus of the Knife Master archetype, an eventual 10d8 damage per attack just from Sneak Attack (plus any other applicable bonuses), and you don't give a proverbial rat's ass about the low base damage die!
A Dex-focused halfling Rogue (Knife Master) with Weapon Finesse and the various Two-Weapon Fighting Feats, using agile weapons, should be doing more than their fair share of damage in combat.
|
1 Ranger(trapper + Urban Ranger)/ 9 Rogue (Knife master)12 Fighter (Weapon Master)....River Rat Trait (+1 with daggers)
You cut away right before the Advanced Talents? Tsk, tsk, tsk.
Those twelves levels of fighter are going to seriously cut into skills as well.
My Knife Master has a Dex of 20 and a Str of 16 so damage wise I would be seeing this with my sneak attacks: 1d4+11(SA 5d8) which may not seem like much but as a full round attack using two weapon feint...
And anything which survives at those hypothetical levels is going to roll a lazy eye in your general adjacent direction, and then swallow you whole.
Try an all or nearly all rogue, more DEX/less STR, with Quick Draw.
I'm surprised no one is suggesting straight class fighter.
I am planning my next character: Straight up fighter, no archetype. Strength primary, dex enough for two-weapon fighting.
1) Yes, damage dice is low, but to-hit bonus is high.
2) Thrown daggers allow more frequent full-attacks. I am hoping to get 3.5 feat Brutal throw approved my DM (crosses fingers) to help ranged attack bonus.
3)Weapon specialization, greater weapons specialization, weapon training make for nice reliable damage uppers.
4) Power Attack and Deadly Aim
5) Heavy armor for armor class (since dex isn't stellar)
Thoughts?
I'm surprised no one is suggesting straight class fighter.Ahem.
fair enough.
Why aren't more people recommending it. maybe LOUDER.
As long as this thread is revived, would someone please do a straightforward comparison of the rogue vs. fighter options. How about at tenth level?
What are the pros and cons of each? I'm not experienced enough at rogues or fighters to see the differences clearly by skimming a list of feats and talents.
|
|
As long as this thread is revived, would someone please do a straightforward comparison of the rogue vs. fighter options. How about at tenth level?
What are the pros and cons of each? I'm not experienced enough at rogues or fighters to see the differences clearly by skimming a list of feats and talents.
The primary "pro" of being a straight or mostly straight-class rogue is that you have amazing flexibility in dealing with a wide variety of situations. Avoiding combat, for instance, when you need to.
I am making a scout knife master guide. Watch this space.
I am watching this space.
I had the notion to build a scout/knife master, guide/trapper a while ago. Two daggers, River Rat, halfing female, kinda feral and creepy. But I never got around to the actual build, and would like to see your ideas.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Honestly, it depends on what you're trying to do. If you want to be a 'Knife Master' then I would reccomend going (almost) straight Weapon Master from the Fighter archetypes. If you want to be a 'Knife Master who can do all kinds of other stuff' then any of the reccomended builds above would be a great place to start.
In the case of the former, this is the feat build I would reccomend, including a 1 level dip at 19th as a Transmutation Wizard. Just one level gets you cantrips, a handful of useful spells a day (like Shield, Alarm, Silent Image, Charm Person, Expeditious Retreat, Feather Fall, Longshot, True Strike, etc.), it gets you a +1 to any physical attribute, it gets you the Scribe Scroll feat and the ability to use all those great magic items, a bump to Will saves, perhaps a familiar... all well worth the investment.
On a side note, feat tax on builds like this borders on the criminal.
Human Weapon Master (Dagger/Knife)
1st - Two-Handed Fighting
1st - Weapon Finnesse
1st - Double Slice
2nd - Weapon Focus: Dagger/Knife
3rd - Piranha Strike
4th - Weapon Specialization: Dagger/Knife
5th - Point-Blank Shot
6th - Improved Two-Handed Fighting
7th - Quickdraw
8th - Improved Critical: Dagger/Knife
9th - Greater Weapon Focus: Dagger/Knife
10th - Critical Focus
11th - Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
12th - Sickening Critical
13th - Staggering Critical
14th - Critical Mastery
15th - Greater Weapon Specialization: Dagger/Knife
16th - Two-Weapon Rend
17th - Stunning Critical
18th - Far Shot
19th - Scribe Scroll
19th - Iron Will
20th - Deadly Aim
Remember that the Weapon Master had an advanced Weapon Training escalation and makes critical feats a lot more effective and that by 17th level you ought to be pretty much auto-stunning anything you full attack against (provided it can be stunned). Quickdraw will let you throw multiple daggers each turn while Point Blank Shot and eventually Far Shot and Deadly Aim actually make it worthwhile to do so.
To maximize the benefit of criticals, it might be suggested that you go with kukri's instead, but that doesn't seem to fit your theme.
At 12th level, with +3 Kukri's and Gloves of Dueling, the character built above would have the following full attack stats:
Attack: +21/+21/+16/+16/+11/+11
Damage: 1d4+20 each
Critical on a 15+, +4 bonus to confirm, critical Sickens for 1 minute (no save)
Talk about reap the whirlwind... but again, as a Fighter this is what he does - he's not good for much else.
The primary "pro" of being a straight or mostly straight-class rogue is that you have amazing flexibility in dealing with a wide variety of situations. Avoiding combat, for instance, when you need to.As long as this thread is revived, would someone please do a straightforward comparison of the rogue vs. fighter options. How about at tenth level?
What are the pros and cons of each? I'm not experienced enough at rogues or fighters to see the differences clearly by skimming a list of feats and talents.
I really think the Rogue gets a bad rap, especially a Human Rogue with the additional Talents - we had one running with us in a recent Skull n shackles campaign and despite having an unbelievable Barbarian and a Master Summoner on the team, she managed to steal the show with regularity.