We will be starting a new AP soon. Most likely the Giant Slayer AP with whatever mods the GM feels like making. Though please don't spoil anything for me.
I am considering a druid. I have played one a while ago that mostly buffed his animal companion and fought alongside it in humanoid form.
Now, I'm thinking of one that does most of his combat in whichever wildshape form seems most appropriate at the time. Does it work out well?
Some things concern me.
Lose weapons. Can eventually use greater magic fang for a +1 to everything for hours. But by that level, most characters have around +3 weapons. I think you could use the amulet for a bonus to say claws. But some forms don't fight with claws. Bite, constrict, trample gore, claws, spikes, etc...
Lose armor. yeah can cast natural armor on yourself. But that doesn't last forever and it doesn't compare with the AC most melee characters have by then.
Even though it lasts for a long time, can only change shape so many times in a day. After a couple of fights I may be stuck as my standard humanoid form or in the wrong form.
Am I off base? Does it wok out ok? How would you build it?
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If you are willing to spend feats to improve your wild shape ability and make use of some of the neat magic weapons in the adventure path, I recommend the Weapon Shift line of feats. I've linked the Greater version, which has links to the other two. You want at least Weapon Shift and Improved Weapon Shift.
I went through Giantslayer with a Druid but not one that Wildshaped. I played a Nature Fang Druid with a familiar and animal companion.
My main point of advice is this: Unless you HEAVILY specialize in your defenses, you dont want to be anywhere near a giant in melee. Mobility is your friend. If you can get one big attack a round and avoid AoO from the giants, that is how you want to engage in melee with them.
Hmm, thinking back on my experience as a Nature Fang Druid, you might be able to pull off something similar. I multiclassed my Druid with a few levels of Unchained Rogue (Scout), so that I could sneak attack on a charge (and vital strike too, but that's another set of abilities). That left me a few levels behind on spells but I never really noticed the delay. But, to that end...
Have you considered Shapeshifting Hunter and four levels of Ranger? Combining Wildshape, favored enemy, and the Weapon Shift feats would make you pack a serious punch in wildshape form.
... Mobility is your friend. If you can get one big attack a round and avoid AoO from the giants, that is how you want to engage in melee with them.
So maybe go the Spring Attack and/or high acrobatics path?
... I recommend the Weapon Shift line of feats. I've linked the Greater version, which has links to the other two. You want at least Weapon Shift and Improved Weapon Shift...
That is pretty cool. Never heard of that chain before.
...
Have you considered Shapeshifting Hunter and four levels of Ranger? Combining Wildshape, favored enemy, and the Weapon Shift feats would make you pack a serious punch in wildshape form.
I had not. I will play with the possibilities.
... There is an enchantment you can get on armors to keep the AC bonus while wildshaped. ...
Well, it is a very expensive enchantment and everyone says it isn't worth the cost. I will look at it again.
... unless I'm much mistaken the Amulet of Mighty fists will boost all of your natural attacks. ...
You are correct. For some reason I was thinking you had to pick 1 type of natural weapon.
Here is a general overview of the Wild Shape Druid's strength and weaknesses.
Lose armor. yeah can cast natural armor on yourself. But that doesn't last forever and it doesn't compare with the AC most melee characters have by then.
Get barding, put it aside, wildshape, and put on the barding. Each barding is limited to a specific form, but you'll use the same form over and over again anyway. Also, Mage Armor can help you out.
After a couple of fights I may be stuck as my standard humanoid form or in the wrong form.
That's why you basically stay in your chosen combat all the time. If an enemy is flyin/unreachable, you don't change to a flying form, you cast Air Walk (if you didn't already). Natural Spell - which is your 5th level feats no ifs or buts - takes care of the normal inability to cast. You need to either spend a feat (Wild Speech) or get a bit creative for communication.
Recommended feats: As mentioned, Natural Spell is absolutely mandatory. Weapon Shift with a reach weapon is awesome anyway and should be even better in that AP. Planar Wild Shape is seriously awesome, although it burns through daily WS uses. Mutated Shape and Chaos Reign can add natural attacks, which is always good if you have pounce. Since your attack roll bonus is okay but not great, Power Attack is not actually that great.
If you can get one big attack a round and avoid AoO from the giants, that is how you want to engage in melee with them.
You might want to get something different form the norm at 6th level as the default Dire Tiger doesn't have reach - if your GM lets you, Marax still has both 10ft reach and pounce (although you only get two attacks when pouncing). At 7th level Weapon Shift with a reach weapon helps out either way. And at 8th level you want Allosaurus as normal (for 15ft reach, or 30ft with Weapon Shift w/ reach weapon).
Doing some build playing. Not sure I like the 4 levels of ranger enough to give up that much spell casting. But still on the table for consideration.
- If I'm going to eventually go for the wild armor enhancement, it seems like I should take a level of fighter for the heavy armor prof, then get +1 wild stoneplate.
- The barding (in a bag of holding) is a cool idea I had not really considered. But it will limit you by the time needed to put it on and take it off. So you would definitely have to assume your combat form long before a combat is expected.
- If I don't go for armor, is a 2 level dip into monk for the wisdom to armor and evasion worth it?
- I'm considering a dwarf with the feral shifter archetype and earth domain. Any reactions?
- Do you need to be proficient with the weapon for the Weapon Shift feat chain?
- If you are holding 2 weapons, do you get the properties of both? I'm trying to think how many properties you could get among all the choices. Reach, disarm, trip, set, entangle, etc...
Doing some build playing. Not sure I like the 4 levels of ranger enough to give up that much spell casting. But still on the table for consideration.
- If I'm going to eventually go for the wild armor enhancement, it seems like I should take a level of fighter for the heavy armor prof, then get +1 wild stoneplate.
- The barding (in a bag of holding) is a cool idea I had not really considered. But it will limit you by the time needed to put it on and take it off. So you would definitely have to assume your combat form long before a combat is expected.
- If I don't go for armor, is a 2 level dip into monk for the wisdom to armor and evasion worth it?
- I'm considering a dwarf with the feral shifter archetype and earth domain. Any reactions?
- Do you need to be proficient with the weapon for the Weapon Shift feat chain?
- If you are holding 2 weapons, do you get the properties of both? I'm trying to think how many properties you could get among all the choices. Reach, disarm, trip, set, entangle, etc...
Monk is absolutely worth it. Depend on your allies to cast mage armor on you for even more AC. It can also set you up for even more melee dun later.
Feats you will want are:
weapon focus (claw)
feral combat training (claw)
improved unarmed strike -bonus feat from monk
dragon style -bonus feat from monk
dragon ferocity
shaping focus
Wild shape into a big cat. Eventually you will get pounce and rake. From dragon style you can charge through friendlies and difficult terrain. You also get a boost in damage to a claw attack. When you get dragon ferocity you get a boost to all your claw attacks. rake attacks are claws too. five attacks on a charge with 1 getting full str to damage, 1 getting 2X str to damage, and the others getting 1.5X str to damage can put a real hurt on the bad guys.
Don't worry about casting in combat, so you won't need natural spell. All of your spells should be long term buffs like barkskin, greater magic fang, and long strider that you cast before wildshaping. Lesser rods of extend are relatively cheap. A fairly cheap workaround is the ring of elequence since it gives the wearer the ability to speak 4 languages.
Your amulet of mighty fists can just do special abilities if you are using GMF for your enhancement bonus.
- The barding (in a bag of holding) is a cool idea I had not really considered. But it will limit you by the time needed to put it on and take it off. So you would definitely have to assume your combat form long before a combat is expected.
Yes. But it makes sense to do regardlessly, due to the long duration and that you don't want to waste the first turn of combat.
- Do you need to be proficient with the weapon for the Weapon Shift feat chain?
Yes, it says so. The Ancestral Weapon trait works well for it, as you don't need to enchant the weapon, and there's no risk of it getting sundered (those two things are the usual downsides of the trait).
- If you are holding 2 weapons, do you get the properties of both?
Nope, it says "Select one of these weapons".
Feats you will want are:
weapon focus (claw)
feral combat training (claw)
improved unarmed strike -bonus feat from monk
dragon style -bonus feat from monk
dragon ferocity
shaping focus
Or you can spend the feats on better stuff!
Don't worry about casting in combat, so you won't need natural spell.
This only works if you exactly know when you'll fight, and have all your daily fights within an hour or so. Because otherwise, your buffs run out faster than WS (and shifting back only works so often before you run out of daily uses), you give up on outfight utility, and need to use every buff before you know you need it. And if you find out infight that you really could use Resist Energy or Freedom of Movement and didn't pre-buff them, you're screwed.
More thoughts.
- So I find myself often going back to look at the Cave Druid archetype. The idea of a large armored (wilde stoneplate) ooze with reach and trip/disarm (weapon shift) just strikes me as wildly hilarious. Probably not too effective for this AP though.
- I also like the Ashvawg Tamer, but I have nixed that. I think that would add to much onto the GM's already enormous load to decide what creatures I can try to tame and what their level appropriate abilities would be.
- I am looking at both the Saurian and Goliath archetypes. I'm not sure a giant hating dwarf that changes into a giant is really kosher. But it would allow me to use any giant size gear we find. The dino shapes are pretty kool. Not sure how 'region appropriate' they are. Though both have the wildshape (focus of the build) pushed off to level 6.
- The Feral Shifter doesn't lose any levels of access to wild shape. A couple of switchable Animal Focus that can be applied throughout the career is pretty decent. Though I guess not super powerful.
- The Reincarnated archetype has a nice auto-second chance saving ability. Nothing really specific about it to the AP or the wildshape focus of the build though.
- The Dragon Shaman archetype seems very AP appropriate since I think dragons and giants are supposed to hate each other from some long forgotten war or something. Really only lizard wildshape though. Do the dino's count as lizards as far as the PF1 game rules are concerned? Otherwise the lizard shapes kinda suck.
- I was comparing the 1 level of fighter with wild stoneplate and the 2 level of monk with mage armor added on. I'm not feeling very convinced of either one. Seems like a serious giant opponent is going to hit you most of the time no matter what. The real need is miss chance. Like displacement, mirror image, and improved invisibility. None of which the druid has.
I think I'm leaning toward the Goliath Druid archetype.
If I take a dip, I think I'm leaning toward the level of fighter eventually going for the stoneplate.
Hey, another question.
Wild armor melds into your form but still gives you the armor bonus. So do you still have the armor check penalty or not?
I recommend against a dip. Especially early on.
Do the dino's count as lizards as far as the PF1 game rules are concerned?
Nope, they have a seperate "shaman" archetype. Which is also the only "shaman" archetype that isn't horrible.
- I am looking at both the Saurian and Goliath archetypes. I'm not sure a giant hating dwarf that changes into a giant is really kosher. But it would allow me to use any giant size gear we find.
The benefit of turning into a giant is that you keep your armor and equipment. The downside is that you're much weaker offensively. The archetype might still be worth it because of the Face Nature’s Might ability and getting Enlarge Person for your pet if you chose to get one, and because it doesn't really lose much (as dinosaurs are prime Wild Shape forms, you only lose out at lvls 6 and 7).
So I find myself often going back to look at the Cave Druid archetype.
I'd recommend against it. It seriously sucks until 11th level, and lack of reach is a real weakness.
Wild armor melds into your form but still gives you the armor bonus. So do you still have the armor check penalty or not?
Yes. When you get any benefit from the armor, you also suffer the downsides.
Hmm... Well carp. Not sure I want to go for the stoneplate and tower shield then. Though dwarves aren't slowed by armor. It would certainly eliminate any acrobatics.
... ...
What?!?
Anyvisage druid
Dwarf druid (goliath druid) 8/fighter (eldritch guardian) 1 (Pathfinder Player Companion: Familiar Folio 7, Pathfinder Player Companion: Giant Hunter's Handbook 20)
N Huge humanoid (dwarf)
Hero Points 1
Init -1; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +15 (+17 vs. Giant)
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Defense
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AC 28, touch 7, flat-footed 28 (+10 armor, -1 Dex, +6 natural, +5 shield, -2 size)
hp 77 (9 HD; 8d8+1d10+27)
Fort +11, Ref +1, Will +9; +4 vs. spell-like and supernatural abilities of giants
Defensive Abilities defensive training
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Offense
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Speed 50 ft. (25 ft. in armor)
Melee (M) +1 dueling cold iron bill +7/+2 (1d8+8/×3) or
. . bite +12 (2d6+7 plus grab), 2 claws +12 (1d8+7)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft. (30 ft. with +1 dueling cold iron bill)
Special Attacks destructive smite (+4, 10/day), pounce, rake (2 claws +12, 1d8+7), wild shape 3/day
Druid (Goliath Druid) Spells Prepared (CL 8th; concentration +11)
. . 4th—inflict critical wounds[D] (DC 17)
. . 3rd—rage[D]
. . 2nd—bull's strength[D]
. . 1st—true strike[D]
. . D Domain spell; Domain Destruction (Rage domain[APG] subdomain)
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Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 8, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 5
Base Atk +7; CMB +18 (+22 grapple); CMD 27
Feats - Custom Feat -, Dedicated Adversary, Natural Spell, Planar Wild Shape[UC], Powerful Shape[UM]
Traits regional recluse: turtleback ferry, strength of the land, vexing defender
Skills Acrobatics -14 (-18 to jump, -10 to move through enemy's space without provoking an attack of opportunity if the enemy is larger than you), Appraise +1 (+3 to assess nonmagical metals or gemstones), Bluff -3 (-1 vs. Giant), Climb -3, Diplomacy -3 (-5 vs. creatures of a different race or culture), Fly -15, Handle Animal +9, Heal +7, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +5 (+7 vs. Giant), Knowledge (geography) +13 (+15 vs. Giant), Knowledge (local) +5 (+7 vs. Giant), Knowledge (nature) +13 (+15 vs. Giant), Knowledge (planes) +6 (+8 vs. Giant), Perception +15 (+17 vs. Giant), Ride -14, Sense Motive +3 (+1 vs. creatures of a different race or culture, +5 vs. Giant), Spellcraft +7, Survival +16 (+18 vs. Giant), Swim -3, Use Magic Device +1; Racial Modifiers +2 Appraise to assess nonmagical metals or gemstones
Languages Common, Druidic, Dwarven
SQ face nature's might, nature bond (Rage domain[APG]), primal bond, primal empathy, primal size, primal summons, rage, trackless step, wild empathy +5, wild shape (giant), woodland stride, xenophobic
Other Gear +1 restful wild stoneplate[UE], +1 wild tower shield, +1 dueling cold iron bill[APG]
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Special Abilities
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Dedicated Adversary (Giant) +2 to Attack and Damage vs. creature chosen, and some skills.
Defensive Training +4 Gain a dodge bonus to AC vs. monsters of the Giant subtype.
Destructive Smite +4 (10/day) (Su) Make a melee attack with morale bonus to damage.
Druid (Goliath Druid) Domain (Rage) Note: The effective level for the barbarian rage powers is currently equal to the cleric level. The rule that they should only count their effective barbarian level as 1/2 their cleric level has not been implemented yet.
Empathic Link with Familiar (Su) You have an empathic link with your Arcane Familiar.
Face Nature's Might (Ex) +4 to saves vs. spell-like and supernatural abilities of giants.
Familiar Bonus: +4 to initiative checks You gain the Alertness feat while your familiar is within arm's reach.
Grab: Bite (Huge) (Ex) You can start a grapple as a free action if you hit with the designated weapon.
Greed +2 to Appraise to determine price of nonmagic goods with precious metals or gemstones.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in dim light, distinguishing color and detail.
Natural Spell You can cast spells while in Wild Shape.
Planar Wild Shape May add the celestial or fiendish template to your animal form
Pounce (Ex) You can make a full attack as part of a charge.
Powerful Shape While in wild shape, you are treated as one size category larger
Primal Bond (Ex) Can affect dinosaur/megafauna animal companion with enlarge person.
Primal Empathy (Ex) Your wild empathy only functions on creatures of size Large or lager.
Primal Size You can spontaneously cast enlarge person using a 1st level or higher spell slot.
Primal Summons Summon nature's ally lists include new options.
Rage (8 rounds/day) (Su) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ ft. by sense of smell.
Share Spells with Familiar Can cast spells with a target of "You" on the familiar with a range of touch.
Trackless Step (Ex) You do not leave a trail as you move through natural surroundings.
Wild Empathy +5 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Wild Shape (8 hours, 3/day) (Su) Shapeshift into a different creature one or more times per day.
Wild Shape (Alter Self: Large giant) (Stone Giant) (Su) As a standard action, take humanoid (giant) form.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
Xenophobic -2 diplomacy and sense motive vs. those of a different race or culture
I have played some PF1 Druids in my time here are some thoughts:
1. As you chose lager shapes your to hit bonus remains the same. The gains to hit from strength are offset by the size penalty. This doesn’t help on a 3/4 bab class so look for ways to compensate for this. Destruction domain gets you rage at 8th level which is good if you know you aren’t casting. Consider going smaller with an agile amulet of mighty fists (as you get smaller your to hit bonus increases plus your dex increases a double bonus).
2. ARmor class is your worse defense. You will not be able to keep up with a giants attack bonus. Planar Wild Shape is a good feat to help with defense. Also, consider a storm druid they get the ability to see through fog and can cast a lot of fog/mist spells. Concealment is your friend with this archetype.
3. Spring attack is great for highly mobile builds with one big attack.
4. Pick offensive spells that target will saves. A giants biggest weakness.
... ...What?!?
What what? Goliath Druid lets you use WS as Giant Form I at 12th level, which can give you regeneration 5. You need to turn into a troll, obviously (Troll or Moss Troll for GF1, Mountain Troll for GF2 would be best). With each WS lasting 12 hours at that point, you're actually likely to have enough time to come back to positive hit points before the effect runs out even if your're left for dead either alone or after a TPK.
This doesn’t help on a 3/4 bab class so look for ways to compensate for this.
It's true that WS only grants a +1 to attack rolls, but you make up for it with the number of attacks at full BAB. An attack roll boost is certainly helpful, don't get me wrong, but you can do without one. Or with just the +2 from charge, which you get on all your attacks when you pick a proper form with pounce.
Consider going smaller with an agile amulet of mighty fists (as you get smaller your to hit bonus increases plus your dex increases a double bonus).
Small sizer is +1 from dex and +1 to attack rolls from size. Medium/Large/Huge is +1 from strength (the part not offset by the size penalty) and +1 from not having to spend a +1 on the AoMF for agile. How, exactly, does going small improve your attack roll? Meanwhile, you do less damage per attack (lower dice and lower ability score bonus), and will end up with fewer attacks.
3. Spring attack is great for highly mobile builds with one big attack.
Spring Attack is great for underperforming in combat. A single attack just isn't good. I don't know about you, but I'd rather pounce an opponent with Allosaurus, get a +2 on ll attack rolls, make six attacks at full BAB, all while outranging even huge giants since I have 30ft reach (so another attack when the giant moves into range)... then spending the same number of feat on making a single attack.
Oh duh. I didn't even think about the troll. Is regeneration on the list of things the spell gives you? I don't remember it. I will check when I get home. But yeah that is super cool.
IF you want to do a dip for AC, why not shifter instead of monk? They get Wis to AC and retain half of it if they wear nonmetal armor.
I have considered the shifter, but I don't want to give up all the goodies of a full casting class. I might change my mind, but not just yet.
Is regeneration on the list of things the spell gives you?
??? I literally said so. Why do you think I mentioned regeneration in the first place?
I have considered the shifter, but I don't want to give up all the goodies of a full casting class.
I'm pretty sure Zandragal meant a dip into Shifter instead of Monk.
IF you want to do a dip for AC, why not shifter instead of monk? They get Wis to AC and retain half of it if they wear nonmetal armor.
Must spend two levels, and no proficiency with a reach weapon. Some minor aspects are good (especially Giant Wasp for +4 to will against mind-affecting), but Monk gets bonus feat(s) (which can be Dodge for another +1 AC, Deflect Arrows, or Combat Reflexes which is rather useful when you have 30ft reach) and (if you take tow levels) evasion. And if you want to wear armor/barding, I don't see a reason to dip in the first place.
I played a toothy halforc (for Weapon focus(Bite)) menhir savant (place magic was useful) druid with a level of monk(for AC and flurry), two levels of ranger(for full favored enemy bonuses with shapeshifting hunter and Improved natural attack) and a couple of levels fighter for bonus feats.
He was a beast. Buffed with Mage armor, barkskin and a few items, easily got AC to 38 at higher levels, you could get it higher with correct items but I found that was good enough. Planar wildshape was DR 10 against almost all enemies.
Feral combat training (bite) allowed him to flurry with his bite for 4d8+ 2xstr bonus on first strike, 1.5x Str bonus on subsequent (Dragon style + ferocity). Cast Strongjaw and its 8d8. Improved natural attack later meant 6d8 without Strongjaw. Haste from the mage meant even more carnage.
Greater magic fang meant I could put bane and other useful enchants to the amulet of mighty fists. Hunters blessing spell stacks with rangers favored enemy and affects the whole party.
If you pick your favored enemy right it will be huge boost for nearly all fights. And the hippo has 15 foot reach. If there is space in the battlefield for giants, there will be space for hippo.
Those nifty weapon shift feats were not a thing then so I did not use them. That reach thing sounds pretty rad, so I might have taken them too if there were space on the build.
Hey, tell you what... A 38 AC in Giantslayer around level 9 or 10 sounds like a very good thing for certain ... challenging fights. My character is running around with an AC of 25 and stays the hell out of the main fighting until he is needed (and then only after casting Ironskin on himself). Our main tank, an Oradin, has an AC 33 and rarely gets scuffed except by CR+2 fights.
Ok, we are almost ready to start the next campaign (the current one has gone a bit longer than expected).
Here's what I'm thinking? I want to see what to see what you folks think of it.
Dwarf (maybe Oread), seems very thematic for fighting giants.
Druid with the Goliath Druid archetype. Most of my fighting from level 6 on should be in giant form (hopefully). So I can make use of my own weapons and armor. Bonus, possibly some of what we find on the giants if they aren't too much bigger than me. I'm guessing most of the giants will be a size category larger than me by the time I get the size increases.
So I can make use of stoneplate to be more tankish.
Shouldn't have much use for the Shift Weapon feat since I don't intend to fight in animal form. I can always carry a reach weapon if needed/useful.
Also shouldn't need the huge expense of the wild enchantment on armor (and shield).
Starting abilities Str 16, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 5
(I think I'm going to have fun playing a truly obnoxious Cha 5 character.)
Traits: Regional Recluse: Turtleback Ferry (+1 survival and att giants), Strength of the Land (+1 caster level checks while touching the land), Vexing Defender (+1 Acrobatics, +4 to move through larger enemies space), Xenophobic
Feats: 1 Steel Soul, 3 Combat Casting, 5 Natural Spell, 7 Powerful Form, 9 Planar Form, 11+ not sure
First level would be either:
Fighter (no archetype) for heavy armor, martial weapons, and tower shield for when I really want to be a tank.
OR
Barbarian (Armored Hulk archetype) for heavy armor and martial weapons.
All the rest of the levels would be druid.
New person to the group might also be playing a melee character. If so, I won't take an animal companion. Don't want to steal anyone's thunder. Then I would probably take the rage domain.
If the new person is not playing a melee character, I will take an animal companion of one of the megafauna that the campaign lists as appropriate.
So, what's your considered opinions?