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I want to start a second PFS character who is focused on archery. I can't decide whether to go fighter, the new magus archetype or zen archer. I am a fairly new player, so something with low reliance on spells or complicated strategy would be nice. Mainly looking for high DPR. Any suggestions on which class is currently leading in that or feat progressions would be great. Wouldn't mind seeing full builds either if people have time. Thanks.
I've never played an archer, but Zen Archer has some abilities that seem too good to be true (as long as you have ki to burn). The new Snap Shot feat chain looks pretty awesome if you want to fight at closer range. Opening Volley might also be useful if you have to do some unarmed fighting after making a successful ranged attack.
Archery feats are pretty much tied to a certain progression already. Most of them are all prerequisites for each other, so it's super easy to know when to take what feat. Zen Archer would actually let you take some of those feats earlier without meeting prerequisites, so that's a bonus.
If you don't want to get complicated, I would just go for a Fighter with the Archer archetype. It seems pretty basic, and if you wanted to, you could pull off some ranged combat maneuvers. Just be sure to take the Agile Maneuvers feat if you do.
I wish I could be of more help, but I lack the experience with this fighting style. Hopefully someone else will come along that won't give you one word suggestions.
Plenty of archer builds on the boards, if you do a search. Granted, the best may not be updated with Ultimate Combat yet.
==Aelryinth
Paladins and archery is nasty and will usually make your teammates feel useless once you bust out a 200+ damage smite full attack. A build where even smaller races (halfing usually) wreck encounters.
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I want to start a second PFS character who is focused on archery. I can't decide whether to go fighter, the new magus archetype, zen archer, or maybe paladin?. I am a fairly new player, so something with low reliance on spells or complicated strategy would be nice. Mainly looking for high DPR. Any suggestions on which class is currently leading in that or feat progressions would be great. Wouldn't mind seeing full builds either if people have time. Thanks.
Fighter will have the most damage per shot.
Zen Archer will have the most DPR most rounds, due to more attacks in the long run + spending ki for yet more attacks. (Sohei archer in the long run actually out volleys the Zen Archer, you might also want to note)
Paladin does mediocre as an archer and X times/day (X being smite uses) completely obliterates a single foe in sickenly quick and brutal fashion.
Magus as an archer I cannot recommend at all.
Are you opposed to Rangers? They lack fighter's damage per shot and monk's (zen archer or sohei) rate of fire, but fall solidly into the middle in both areas and have spells and an animal companion to back them up and are the most skillful. If you are ok with a super twinked out "cheesy" build, ranger/rogue into horizon walker is the highest DPR you can obtain as an archer, by far.
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Fighter will have the most damage per shot.
Zen Archer will have the most DPR most rounds, due to more attacks in the long run + spending ki for yet more attacks. (Sohei archer in the long run actually out volleys the Zen Archer, you might also want to note)
Paladin does mediocre as an archer and X times/day (X being smite uses) completely obliterates a single foe in sickenly quick and brutal fashion.Magus as an archer I cannot recommend at all.
Are you opposed to Rangers? They lack fighter's damage per shot and monk's (zen archer or sohei) rate of fire, but fall solidly into the middle in both areas and have spells and an animal companion to back them up and are the most skillful. If you are ok with a super twinked out "cheesy" build, ranger/rogue into horizon walker is the highest DPR you can obtain as an archer, by far.
I never really considered that do u have like a feat progression, and starting stats ect for that im really quite clueless on most everything
jj, how important is it to you that your archer build be totally badass? Is the archer approach more of a role playing concept, or a desire to have the most powerful archer you can build?
I play an archer druid and enjoy the heck out of her. She won't compare to a fighter or zen archer, but she does ride a big badass tiger and can cast awesome reality altering spells.
At level 8 she has a +11/+11/+6 attack bonus with her bow and shoots four arrows in a full attack. With a few standard buffs she can get to +13/+13/+8 on her attacks.
Not suggesting you take a druid archer approach, just trying to demonstrate that there are more options available than zen archer or arrow smiting paladin. True, those other options might not be the best arrow-damage inflicting builds, but some of those options bring some very interesting other options to the table.
I could provide a build and feats. What class appeals to you the most? What books are allowed (including bestiaries for races)?
AD: Druid is pretty good for archery eventually. Wildshaping into an air elemental for dex and str boosts, eventual size increase, and perfect high speed flight is very nice for an archer. Just get a large enough bow w/ the right str rating for your elemental form. The PF archer I'm currently playing is actually technically a druid. But it's a gestalt game, so he's a druid//ranger and thus had much faster feat acquisition. :) But he does quite well especially since DM allows 3E material. If it were PF-only, cleric might be the better archer just because of the guided hand feat, but druid's still good in the long run, it's just rough pre-level ~10.
A Zen Archer would be fun to play if just for the sole fact that a level one Half-Elf Zen Archer can start out with 14 perception.
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Having played an Arcane Archer to level 22 back in 3.5, I can say that the AA path is a great one. With some of the alterations made for PF, the level progression may be different for full optimization out to level 20, but PFS tends to end around level 11 anyway. I'd advise taking AA to level 3, with Ftr6/Sor2 as the base.
If you're not enamored with the AA, you can't really go wrong with a straight fighter archer. I have another archer at the moment that is planning to go the AA route as well. I decided that the archer archtype was not for me, as I didn't like the trade-offs. He's one of the main damge dealers at level 4, though it may have been better as a Zen Archer. Having never played a ZA I can't say for sure, but the AA does work very well.
One thing to remember: watch your battlefield positioning. Don't let things close with you; don't let people between you and your target; move to where you have more than just one possible target for a full attack. Also make sure you have a plan for when you are forced into melee. Don't be caught weaponless, make sure you have a backup.
As for feats, follow the tree, but the basics are: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, and of course Weapon Focus, as well as Rapid Shot if you're not a ZA. After that, choose the feats you will use and enjoy the most. Look at Manyshot, Clustered Shots, Shot on the Run, Stabbing Shot, Point Blank Master, and Snap Shot (watch the perrequisites). Decide which you would like and work toward them, grabbing all the archery feats you can. There are plenty of others.
Ok, Zen Archer. I actually have a handbook in the works for that archetype.
Half-Elf isn't the best choice, but it's far from the worst. Feats are pretty simple, most come from the class. Take Precise Shot as your level 1 bonus feat and Imp. Precise Shot as your 6th level bonus feat. You should probably wait till 2 to get Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat, but if the feats you're after require Dodge anyway, I suppose you could get PBS as your general 1st level feat and just pick up dodge at Zen Archer level 2.
That's the basis, beyond that is up to you. May want to consider a style feat from UC. If none of the others appeal, Monkey Style requires no extra feats to obtain at all and prevents getting knocked prone from robbing you of your full attack flurry of blows (can't use a bow while prone; normally getting up is a move action).
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StreamOfTheSky
I could provide a build and feats. What class appeals to you the most? What books are allowed (including bestiaries for races)?
on that post im talking with my brother about possible options and i can get back to u soon? If i go with zen that handbook will be extremely useful and that is where i am personally leaning right now. Ill get back to you with a final decision.
And Adamantine Dragon for right now i can say im more interested in the dpr. In almost every game i ever play that is my primary focus then when im satisfied i can not do better i usually just try to have fun with some crazy characters.
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Ok, Zen Archer. I actually have a handbook in the works for that archetype.
Half-Elf isn't the best choice, but it's far from the worst. Feats are pretty simple, most come from the class. Take Precise Shot as your level 1 bonus feat and Imp. Precise Shot as your 6th level bonus feat. You should probably wait till 2 to get Point Blank Shot as a bonus feat, but if the feats you're after require Dodge anyway, I suppose you could get PBS as your general 1st level feat and just pick up dodge at Zen Archer level 2.
That's the basis, beyond that is up to you. May want to consider a style feat from UC. If none of the others appeal, Monkey Style requires no extra feats to obtain at all and prevents getting knocked prone from robbing you of your full attack flurry of blows (can't use a bow while prone; normally getting up is a move action).
I have decided on the zen archer. I'm sure i will find the handbook very helpful if I have any questions after looking at it is it ok if i ask?
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this will show you how terribly ignorant i am im sure but what are these and what determines when i get them.
Flurry of Blows: The main reason the ZAM has any business being an archer to begin with. Can’t combine with Rapid Shot or Manyshot, oh well.
Bonus Feats: These are great since you can ignore requirements, just be sure to choose wisely. Here they are by level:
(click to show/hide)
AC Bonus: Even with high Wis, this won’t cut it. Get a friend with Mage Armor!
Perfect Strike: I wish we could’ve kept Stunning (applied to bows).
Unarmed Strike: Gives you something to do in melee and grapples and you always threaten; helps to qualify for a style feat if you want.
Way of the Bow: At level 2, Weapon Focus for Evasion is kind of a bad trade. But Specialization as well at 6 is great!
Zen Archery: Critical to reducing your MAD, great feature!
Point Blank Master: Yup, you get it before anyone else can.
Fast Movement: Eh, we’ll take it.
Ki Pool: Barring an emergency, only use this for the extra attack.
Slow Fall: Possibly good if it’s a level 20 game w/ unerrata’d Cloud Step, otherwise swap via Qinggong Monk.
Ki Arrows: Very yucky. Especially with Gravity Bow spell being cheaply available, it won’t be until very high level that this actually helps at all, and still won’t be worth the ki point.
High Jump: I’d swap this out via Qinggong Monk.
Wholeness of Body: Godawful. Swap it out w/ Qinggong Monk.
Reflexive Shot: A little late to start making an AoO build, and you shouldn’t be in melee a lot anyway. Oh, and UC gave this away to the Fighter as bonus feats and he can do it better than you.
Trick Shot: Every ZAM has had Improved Precise Shot for 5 levels by now, the only uses are 2 points to ignore full concealment or 3 to ignore total cover. Beg your DM to let you swap this via Qinggong Monk. Beg.
Abundant Step: Teleportation is always nice as an option.
Diamond Soul: SR is double-edged. If you hate it, swap it out.
Quivering Palm: This is just cool, sorry. If you hang on for 2 levels, you can actually use it on bow shots. I suppose you could swap it out and reclaim it from Qinggong Monk for Timeless Body at 17, too.
Ki Focus Bow: After a lot of suck, we finally have an amazing class feature again! This is simply incredible. By now, you could have easily gotten several “fist feats” (Stunning Fist, Touch of Serenity, Punishing Kick…), all of which you can use once per round and monk level times per day EACH. And now you can chain them off your bow shots!
Timeless Body: This will never be useful in most games, swap. If you get to start at this high a level, milk those age bonuses to wisdom!
Empty Body: Like with teleporting, nice as an option, but really costly and overall unimpressive for this level.
Perfect Self: Unlike a melee monk, no Enlarge Person doesn’t hurt you. This is still embarrassingly poor. Sad thing is, Qinggong Monk doesn’t offer much better for it.
They're your class features for being a Zen Archer Monk.
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you cannot play a zen archer, it does not work with the new ruling. as a second choice i could suggest a fighter/sorcerer or wizard into Arcane Archer. its a pretty fun class, and is functional from 1-12 no period of sucking.
i personally will never recomend to a person to play a ranger, i dont like the class features.
but a really fun class you could try is a oricle 4/ninja 8
you take the oricle curse for defness or lameness
the revelation of water vision (or what ever its called)
then you cast obscuring mist and stick people with sneak attack arrows for up to 7d6 per shot + modifiers and you get all the sexy ninja tricks like invisibility and mirror immage.
i would play
ninja 1-2
oricle 3-6
ninja 7-12
take all the normal archery feats, or go with a heavy repeating crossbow
with improved crit. i think it would be a blast to play, very ninja scrolls ish type character.
Yes, if you play in PF Society or a strictly RAW DM that keeps current in online goings-on, any monk that uses Flurry of Blows is literally unplayable currently. If your game is not PFS and your DM isn't on these boards...I'd suggest you keep your mouth shut and just play your character. There's honesty, and then there's taking a dictator to task about his brutal regime at a state dinner. The latter is also being honest, but it accomplishes nothing at all except a bad end for you.
So would an archer be better than playing a crossbowman?
If you only care about combat, and specifically only damage and not a lot of battlefield control, then go fighter archer. If you want more flexibility/ options then go zen archer.
Currently i'm playing a fighter archer. I try to make myself more useful through his use of different arrows and certain tricks I found our made myself. Tricky from archer fighter will only really be receive for bull rush and trip, sunder might not be too bad either. You have to make sure you get your cmb up high, which using you're Dex for cmb, due to the nature of the attack type, your cmb won't be too bad vs. a caster out the like.
If you happen to pick up the snap shot line, without greater (you have better uses for the feat slot then to give a bonus on a AoO), then I suggest you get the Pin Down feat. Now those you threaten can't make a 5ft step, our withdraw without you making an API on them to prevent said movement. That's awesome vs casters.
Fighter Archer is actually better for battlefield control, ...for the exact stuff you mentioned. By level 11 you can easily have Improved Snap Shot, the tripping trick shot, and Pin Down (a fighter-only feat) to threaten a 15 ft radius and anyone you hit you can trip or end their movement. That's enough radius to stay back with the mage and keep any melee brutes from reaching him.
Maybe you just define "battlefield control" differently than me, but that's exactly what I consider it to be, and Zen Archer cannot do that...
Oh I know full will that they get imp. Snap shot, my archer fighter i'm playing has it. But what I mean about battlefield control is more on a larger scale. If its just for his little area of archer angel of death than that's fine. But that means he had to be front line almost or get to the casters/squishies. Either way, I haven't used trick shot yet. I'm still trying to figure out which it would be best against, cmd wise besides casters.
Don't forget since it's with your bow that you're making the maneuver checks, you're using dex and not str for the CMB. That helps with the -4 penalty you suffer a bit.
And I would not frontline w/ the snap shot / pin down combo. I'd use it like I said. As a last line of defense for the caster(s) in the back. Which is where you as the archer should be.
Stream: you're correct, the archer is better off protecting mage. However, in the times you can't, surrounded, not prepared, what have you.
Don't forget to get the party caster to cast gravity bow on you. Your 1d8 arrows just became 2d6, and if you can use broad arrows do so and you get 1d10 per arrow, with gravity bow on your broad arrows they are now 2d8 (essentially hitting with 2 arrows per shot, damage wise, simply by changing arrow type and one simple spell). If you enlarge, they are 3d8, but I think the 2d8 is better since you are no longer taking an ac hit, or a Dex penalty due to your large size.
Try to use different arrows when you need it. Helps bypass DR, and you use the advantage of using a bow, ammunition that can change for the circumstances; besides range. Pheromone arrows are really good, if you can gain scent ability. My character gains it by using a hat of disguise, greater. He turns into a sasquatch, or a charu-ka, to gain scent, darkvision, and low light vision. Now your marked prey give you a +2 to atk/dmg per arrow. Not too shabby.
Yeah, PF decided to defy all logic by having size alteration mean different things / make damage based on size depend upon arrows or bow size inconsistently.
Fortunately, there's the Arrow Mind spell, which for an archer is strictly better than what enlarge person would be if it worked like in 3.5. So...eh.
As for CMD... Zen Archers have medium BAB, however, all three of their most important attributes (wisdom, dex, and str) add to CMD for them. So they tend to still have pretty good CMD scores. At least in my experience.
A goz mask, found in the inner sea guide, would help archers out, for not only seeing through fog our most, but for also changing size of arrow or how they are treated, as if a size up when dealing with wind.
The spell fickle winds is great for archers as well, gives you advantages and enemies have tough time shooting you.
(btw, streamofthesky, sent another pm.)
You'd have to have a pretty liberal DM to be allowing Pheremone arrows and Greater Hat of Disguise, I would think. But if that works, power to ya...though unless you have time to buff up, the hat will be a standard action to activate, I believe.
And Broad Arrows would require an even more liberal DM. Archers really don't need all that help to overshadow most other characters on the damage dealing front.
Weapon Blanch from the APG is a really solid item for Archers to get the kinds of arrows they need for cheap. Also, APG has blunt arrows. With Blunt arrows and some money spent on having Weapon Blanch'd arrows of various kinds on hand, the only kind of DR you might have trouble with is Good (why I always get a Holy bow) or Slashing (not very common at all). And even then you can grab Clustered Shots if you really want.
Don't have ISG, so unless it's on d20pfsrd, can't look that goz mask up. Sounds very good, though.
I do not agree that fickle winds is "good for archers," though. While it will protect you from other archers, it works just as well at keeping 1st level archers from hurting you as it does at keeping you even at 20th level from hurting anyone yourself. In other words, it auto negates your entire combat style. Just by existing, it is inherently bad for you. I would suggest not touchingi t with a 10 ft pole and hoping the DM doesn't notice it.
Seriously, that spell is BROKEN. I thought wind wall was stupid enough. Then they make a version with no drawback that the enemy archers can't at least maneuver around to the other side of. Just...wtf?
Zordon: I think your damage is off. Also, many shot says when your attack his, both arrows hit, if you crit its for ONE ARROW only. Not both.
also, vital strike doesn't work with manyshot. Manyshot is if you do a full attack. Vital strike is when you do a standard action. Can't combine.
I disagree with you about improved precise shot. It is needed by ALL archers. Seeking only deals with concealment and miss chances. Imp. Precise shot is for both concealment, and cover. There is overlap for concealment and miss chance, but not for cover. If there are any lines from you to your enemy they passes through an enemy or ally, they get soft cover which is a +4 bonus to their AC. Then, if there are any lines that are solid, solid objects that can block line of sight, they get cover as well. Depending on hire much, its a minimum of +2 or +4 for minimum. At max its +8.
So, if your enemy is behind a table turned over, getting partial cover for + 4 and he had a few if his allies in front, he gets a +8 to his AC. Your seeking bow isn't doing anything vs that. But your everyday archer whose a ranger knows better and took imp. Precise shot, and he now negates that +8 to their ac.
..... You must never have played an archer before.
1. Imp. Precise shot IS need. Go look again at seeking property. Nowhere there does out say anything about cover. Look again, seeking only for miss chances, such as concealment... Not cover.
2. Vital strike does NOT work with manyshot or full round action. " As of the current rules, you cannot use Vital Strike as part of a charge. Vital Strike is an attack action, which is a type of standard action."- Jason bulmahn (lead designer)... It also is on the d20pfsrd.com. Look up vital strike, and look at the bottom. Then look at imp. Precise shot, and seeking. You need both. An attack action is a standard action. Look at the clarification in the ruling for the feat on the site.
3. Manyshot says this " Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger's favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow."
Let's break it down. A). For a crit, damage is rolled for one arrow only for the crit. Only one arrow applies to the crit. So, what that means is that of the two arrows fired only one gets extra damage told. Them add all together.
Ex. Your attack is +12/+7, for 1d8+ 9 damage. On a full round attack, you make two attacks with 3 arrows. The first one is manyshot. Let's say you get a nat 20, and they you confirm it. Your damage is as follows: 1d8+9 x (3) + 1d8+9 2nd arrow, not applied for crit)......1d8+9 x 3= 3d8+27 + 1d8+9= 4d8 + 36.
You're critical hits are only for one arrow. You roll damage separately, not roll once multiply by 3 for a bow. Also, the last line of manyshot says that each arrow is counted for damage reduction. So that clusters shots idea you mentioned is wrong. The actual fest clustered shots combines all arrow damage attacks into one for bypassing DR.
Look more here on the forums to show you how to play/make an archer. I'm sort but your giving bad advice for this persons archer.
Grizzly is correct on manyshot. Additionally, in the Elves of Golarion there is a magic item enhancement called clustershot that allows you to gain 1/2 of the second arrow's critical damage. Note: do not confuse this with Clustered Shots the feat.
The developers have stated that Vital Strike ONLY works as a standard attack action. They have also stated it cannot be combined with spring attack, charge, or any other action that is not a straight standard attack action (much to everyone's lament).
In my games we have houseruled that anytime you make a single attack you may use Vital Strike, but this still would not make it compatible with Manyshot which requires a Full-Attack Action.
One last note: Seeking only allows you to ignore miss chance not cover bonus to AC. There are multiple sources of miss chance and Seeking deals with them all. However, that does not have any bearing on cover bonus to AC as cover bonus to AC is not a miss chance. Thus, Improved Precise Shot is still required for those times when you are shooting at a bunch of archers that are shooting from arrow slits or you are shooting past your own people.
- Gauss
My favorite Archer has become my Halfling Paladin (Holy Tactician)/Summoner (Master Summoner). He gets flight from the Aspect class ability of Summoner, summons a 'pack' of Lantern Archons and then uses the Paladin ability Tactical Acumen to grant the teamwork feat Target of Opportunity to all of them.
I know its not what the OP was looking for, I just like talking about him.
:)
Sure, you can look at all this math about what gets the highest DPR, but who wants to read and think about all that garbage? Go grenadier alchemist. Free martial weapon proficiency (take longbow) and the ability to infuse alchemical items into your weapons, as well as more bomb flexibility. Take explosive missile and a whole bunch of bomb discoveries, and sit back and watch as you explode enemies from hundreds of feet away. You may have some feat shortages, so a level or two in fighter wouldn't be a terrible idea, but you have a number of advantage over other archers. Your primary damage ignores DR, and you can switch to another energy type for resistances. You get excellent control abilities with smoke bomb and its various related discoveries, as well as few others like blinding bomb. You get the ability to take care of all your buffs yourself with extracts, and you can easily polymorph into a smaller shape without worrying about a big hit to damage because smaller bombs are just as dangerous as bigger ones, thus benefiting from big AC boosts and a dexterity increase. Throw in a dex mutagen, and you're closing the gap for hit bonuses compared to fighters, rangers, and zen archers (although they'll probably always have the advantage for hitting, to be honest). If you are really having trouble hitting a target, get closer and switch to throwing against touch AC, still taking advantage of your various ranged feats.
The archer bomber, while probably not quite the monster that zen archer or archer fighter can be, is an archer that can deal big damage and take satisfaction in blowing the crap out of everything you see. It's a fun build, and extracts+mutagens give you a lot more flexibility than either of those classes, especially the fighter, could ever have.
For example, don't take improved precise shot [IPS]... EVER! I have a seeking bow with covers that much better than IPS ever would.There is one important detail you (and likely many others before you) have missed. Enchanting a bow with the seeking property does nothing unless you are throwing the bow itself at your enemies. Note on the linked table that seeking does not apply to ammunition fired from a bow with the seeking special ability.
That has GOT to be an oversight...
EDIT: Distance is the same! What the hell...?
Wow, good point Mike Lindner. Normally I go by the wording that indicates when an item cannot have the enchantment but the ammunition can. Example: Brilliant Energy.
However, while not text they do have an example image of a seeking crossbow. Of course, that is not definitive.
Distance on the other hand does not need it to bestow the property since it modifies the properties of the ranged weapon itself (increases its range increment).
- Gauss
It wasn't overpowered in 3E....
Of course, EVERY option the ranged rogue had in 3E was deemed overpowered for PF and nerfed into the ground (let's count! Sneak attack with splash weapons; sneak attack with blink spell; full attack sneak attack someone balancing [now you can only ready an action to do it on their turn]; sneak attack grappling foes; and now this!). So this actually makes perfect sense. :(
(since any miss % at all rapes sneak attack, rogues were by far and away the biggest customers of Seeking bows in 3E, not to mention the fact full BAB classes could get the slightly overlapping IPS at 11 while rogue had to wait to 15 and was thus out of reach in many games)
LOL for seeking and distance not applying to ammunitions. Seeking is good for a +1 enchantment, but already not that good for a +2 (compare to holy) since it's pretty circumstantial (for a full blown archer is only useful against total concealment). As a +3/+4 would be far too expensive.
It's an oversight, that's for sure.