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Jeff, I'm not sure I follow your two examples. Your first one would result in a total damage of -1, which would result in minimum 1 nonlethal. Your second example would result in a total damage of -2, which would still be 1 nonlethal according to the rules.

Granted, we normally ignore the nonlethal part and just apply it as damage, but that's not part of our issue.


Yep, we're still arguing it. I'm trying to lump the damage penalty in with all other modifiers, he's trying to make it an exception to the general rule and apply it directly to the die roll.

I don't think we'll get a resolution until an official replies. Thanks for the help though, everyone.


So Baval and Moragan, you've given me two different answers. Baval, you seem to be on my side that the penalty applies to the total, but Moragan seems to be agreeing with my friend.

So let's say I had a character that deals 1d8+10 with an alchemical silver longsword, is his minimum damage 10 or 11? I say that the -1 penalty applies to the total, so that the math would (generally) be like this:

Roll 1 damage on the d8 + 10 damage - 1 silver penalty = 10 damage total

My friend says it applies to the roll, so for him the math would be:

Roll 1 damage on the d8 (-1 penalty, but with minimum 1 damage) + 10 damage = 11 damage total

Again, we're discussing a minor point and one whole point of damage, but now it's getting to be an issue as to when the penalty is applied. Thanks again everyone.


My friend and I just got into a rather heated discussion on this issue and need assistance.

He was looking at getting an alchemical silver longsword. We have both read the description on the -1 penalty to damage and have interpreted it in completely opposite ways.

His interpretation is that the -1 penalty to damage (with a minimum of 1 point of damage) is applied to the damage ROLL, not the total damage. Therefore, if a fighter with 10 Strength swings that silver longsword and rolls a 1 for damage, he deals a minimum 1 damage. If a fighter with an 18 Strength rolls a 1 on the die, he still does that minimum 1 point of damage, plus 4 points for his strength, for a total of 5 damage.

My interpretation is that the -1 penalty to damage is added to the TOTAL result of the damage roll. So if the fighter with 10 Strength rolls a 1 on the damage, he deals the minimum one point of damage. If the fighter with an 18 Strength rolls a 1 on the damage die, he deals that, plus 4 damage from his strength, THEN a -1 penalty from the silver, for a total of 4 damage.

While we acknowledge that this is a minor, minor issue, it is a point that bears arguing as to what point penalties are applied. Is the penalty applied to the roll? Or to the total?

Thank you for any assistance.


I enjoy writing characters, and I've actually done this pretty legitimately and haven't broken any rules. I have the Avengers statted out as follows:

- Captain America - Brawler with the Shield Champion archetype, nice and simple, gets all the unarmed combat and shield abilities you could want, otherwise go with a Shielded Fighter archetype as a second option
- Hawkeye - Slayer with the Sniper archetype, goes the Vital Strike route with his feats and the archery combat style (from Ranger) to get Pinpoint Targeting; he stands in one place and takes one careful shot at a time
- Black Widow - Rogue who actually uses a lot of grappling feats with Agile Maneuvers, and there is a feat called Strangler, that when you successfully grapple a foe you can spend a swift action to add your sneak attack dice to damage, it's a pretty cool build
- Thor - Aasimar Warpriest, which gets him the high damage with the hammer, spells, etc.
- Ironman - Summoner with the Synthesist archetype, his eidolon actually forms around him and appears to be some kind of otherworldly construct, nice and simple, it doesn't give him any combat spells, so you'd have to fix that with wands and other magic items
- Hulk - two ways to go with this; either a Barbarian with the Titan Mauler archetype, which allows you to (eventually) become size large when you rage, which is why I prefer that over the other option, an Alchemist who prestiges into the Master Chymist

I actually have these characters written (again fully legitimately) for two adventure paths. I wanted to see what they would look like at high levels. Hulk is actually the last one who really has all of the abilities that we see in the movie (the first Avengers).

I did consider a build for Wolverine, and I came up with a skinwalker of some kind (from Blood of the Moon), with a class of Brawler with the Steel Breaker archetype. The race would potentially give him claws (depending on the bloodline), and the Steel Breaker allows you to make a check to ignore DR, thus explaining the ability to cut through anything.

Nightcrawler is easy; a tiefling for sure, and then either do him as a Wizard, specializing in conjuration with the teleportation subschool, or a cleric with the travel domain. Both give lots of teleporting abilities that will piss off any GM.

The problem that I see a bunch of my friends having who look into this is that they want to have the characters be the superheroes at like 5th level, and they're not going to be. You can legitimately make these characters and have them fit perfectly within the rules, you just need to wait a little while and give yourself a little creative and descriptive license.


jj36 wrote:
I want to start a second PFS character who is focused on archery. I can't decide whether to go fighter, the new magus archetype or zen archer. I am a fairly new player, so something with low reliance on spells or complicated strategy would be nice. Mainly looking for high DPR. Any suggestions on which class is currently leading in that or feat progressions would be great. Wouldn't mind seeing full builds either if people have time. Thanks.

One build that I made up was a Strength-based archer. Did him as a half-orc (for flavor), and maxed out his Strength with Dexterity as his second-highest stat. Then of course took all the archery-related feats I could. Sure, he was hitting slightly less than an archer with maxed Dex, but with a mighty composite bow, weapon specialization, etc., by 6th or 7th level I was dealing something like 1d8+12 damage with a bow. Then of course, the villains get into melee and I pull out the greatsword, and I still have high strength, high BAB, and pump out some melee damage. Was a really fun build.


Does anyone have an idea as to how the Master of Many Forms prestige class (from the Complete Adventurer) would translate into Pathfinder? I have been thinking of rebuilding a druid who used this prestige class, but with the changes that have been made to the Wild Shape abilities, I'm not sure how to translate this over. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.