RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Without Complete Psionics Dreamscarred Press might not exist. Although that's probably the best thing one can say about that book.Now, one major problem (I had) with 3.5 psionics: the Complete Psionics.NO
SHUT UP
NO
IT NEVER HAPPENED
THAT BOOK NEVER HAPPENED
Yes, Dreamscarred was the best thing to come out of (in)Complete Psionics.
And while we're talking about 3.5, let's also give a special shout out to Mark Jindra and the rest of the WotC people who worked with us and gave so much of their time (and in some cases money) to keep the Mind's Eye alive as long as they did. Now THAT should have been the Complete Psionic book.
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A well-thought out, respectful and knowledgeable post.
This is absolutely AWESOME!
If Paizo does do "psionics" ("mystic" might go a long way to leaving behind all the baggage associated with "psionic", and it wouldn't be stepping on another publisher's toes...), then I hope it'll be somewhat different (OK, a lot different) from power points (Dreamscarred's handled it already) or vancian (just another wizard). <end rant>
-- C.
Role-Playing Reviews, Rick Swan, Dragon issue #180, pages 18-19:
"Here's my instant psionics system, intended for the AD&D® game but adaptable to any fantasy role-playing game with a minimum of fuss. Using these simple rules, player characters can generate mental lightning bolts, communicate telepathically, and annoy their enemies with a startling variety of mental magic.
"1. Every wizard and priest spell has a psionic equivalent, the only difference being that the name of the spell is prefaced by either “psi” or “mind,” as determined by the Dungeon Master. For instance, blindness becomes Psiblindness, and knock becomes Mindknock.
"2. At the beginning of each day, a PC receives a number of Brain Cell Points (BCPs) equal to his intelligence score. To use a psionic power, he expends a number of BCPs equal to the power’s level. For instance, using Psiblindness costs 2 BCPs, while Mindknock costs 3 BCPs.
"3. A psionicist uses his powers in the same way as a wizard or priest casts spells, except there aren’t any verbal, somatic, or material components; the powers come directly from his mind. The effects of a psionic power are identical to those of the corresponding spell.
"4. When a PC runs out of BCPs, he can’t use any more psionic powers. He recovers a full load of BCPs the next day.
"What’s that, you say? My system’s no good? Too simple-minded? Too much like magic? No significant effect on the play of the game?
"Okay, you’re right—it stinks. But it’s only marginally worse than the psionics systems in most RPGs. Designers often acknowledge the potential of psionics by including psionic-like elements in their games, but they seldom come up with a coherent, inventive approach to the concept as a whole."
I removed a post. Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party.
Well, I only read a page and a half, so forgive me if this has already been stated, but maybe we are looking at the concept in a way that doesn't work? You are seeing it as a companion to a Sorcerer or Wizard, but what if it were more of a companion to a Monk?
Now, my line of thought is a bit like a Qinggong monk. They have a ki pool (or a psi pool, if that is necessary), and they use the pool to do specific abilities. Not spells, but things like a concussive wave, picking up objects, or stuff like that
Not just taking spells from the Mages and making them function under power points, but rather giving them psychic abilities which drain their pool upon use, like Monks or Ninja. This is something that would be fairly unique, and pretty cool I think. It also fits with the general idea of what a psionic is.
(Also, forgive me if this is like the Psionics Unleashed book. That's something I haven't read)
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My husband is actually at work on an alternate psionics system in the form of feat trees.I never liked feat trees for magic or psionics. I don't think psionics is something you just dabble in, and Pathfinder is a class-based system, so delegating it to a secondary system like Feats instead of the primary system (= class abilities) trivialises it.
It can make sense, like magic in Midnight, but there, magic wasn't supposed to be as easy and ubiquitous as in your usual D&D setting.
As the husband in question, I'd just like to throw out some of my reasoning for the design.
Psionicists are not wizards. Most of the psychic heroes in fiction have nowhere near the breadth of power that a Pathfinder wizard has. They will typically have one or two tricks that can be rather flexible, and very little beyond that.
Which means that psionics rarely defines such a character to the point that they would be considered members of a class. They will usually have a "day job" and use their abilities as part of that job. So having a psionics system that served as an adjunct to the class system rather than a replacement made more sense to me.
And I tried very hard to avoid "access feats" (i.e. "waste this feat slot now and we'll give you something cool later"), making sure that every feat is useful. So if you only take one psionic feat, you've still made a good investment.
I tried to do something like this and design proved too time consuming. I'd be interested in seeing what you've done. Incidentally, how do you handle Psychic Warriors? Is their base class Rogue or Fighter or Ranger or what?
My husband is actually at work on an alternate psionics system in the form of feat trees.I never liked feat trees for magic or psionics. I don't think psionics is something you just dabble in, and Pathfinder is a class-based system, so delegating it to a secondary system like Feats instead of the primary system (= class abilities) trivialises it.
It can make sense, like magic in Midnight, but there, magic wasn't supposed to be as easy and ubiquitous as in your usual D&D setting.
As the husband in question, I'd just like to throw out some of my reasoning for the design.
Psionicists are not wizards. Most of the psychic heroes in fiction have nowhere near the breadth of power that a Pathfinder wizard has. They will typically have one or two tricks that can be rather flexible, and very little beyond that.
Which means that psionics rarely defines such a character to the point that they would be considered members of a class. They will usually have a "day job" and use their abilities as part of that job. So having a psionics system that served as an adjunct to the class system rather than a replacement made more sense to me.
And I tried very hard to avoid "access feats" (i.e. "waste this feat slot now and we'll give you something cool later"), making sure that every feat is useful. So if you only take one psionic feat, you've still made a good investment.
I did not go out of my way to emulate anything that appears in the existing psionics rules. A "psychic warrior" under my system would have taken some psionic feats that enhance their fighting ability. Telekinetic feats that let them wield weapons remotely. Shape a weapon out of ectoplasm. I'm working on a few others, too
Maybe Telepathic attacks take place in a pseudo alternate reality (like a Decker running the Matrix in Shadowrun or like 'The Will and the Way' (an old Darksun add-on)).God no. Never. Never again.
I have played a Decker with the Matrix book. That was my single worst gaming experience with regard to the system itself (I've had worse experience but those were with creepy guys and not relevant to the system).
Agreed, while it's great cinematicly, when the other characters off-screen are in limbo, it's bad for the other players who have to suddenly have to sit around and wait for 40 minutes, while Psychic combat occurs.
Has he taken a look at Call of Cthulhu d20? That game handled psionics as a few feat trees.
I'm fairly sure he's mentioned it once or twice, but I'm also fairly sure that we don't have a copy.
*shouted from cover*
Would people be more open to the idea of a power points system if the points in question were hit points?
*full defence*
I have given this some thought from time to time. The idea that psionics (or any kind of magic) is cast using your own hit points, generally that casting spell causes either actual damage or non-lethal damage to the caster. Its an interesting idea for sure.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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The old 3.5 book Tome of Magic introduced a few different ways to do mystical things, although 2 of the 3 needed work. The Binder was good, but the Truenamer had a problem with escalating DC's (requiring a magic item to overcome) that made it more difficult to cast your effects as you became more experienced, and the Shadowcaster didn't have enough power to contribute over the course of an adventuring day.
Non-Vancian magic systems can work and still be balanced with the rest of the game, as long as some thought (and playtesting) has been put into it before it gets published.
Feh on the ToM binder. This is the Binder you're looking for.
(And can fit into the Azlanti history pretty easily) :-)|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I have given this some thought from time to time. The idea that psionics (or any kind of magic) is cast using your own hit points, generally that casting spell causes either actual damage or non-lethal damage to the caster. Its an interesting idea for sure.*shouted from cover*
Would people be more open to the idea of a power points system if the points in question were hit points?
*full defence*
In (non-saga) Star Wars d20, the Jedi force powers did something like this.
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In (non-saga) Star Wars d20, the Jedi force powers did something like this.I have given this some thought from time to time. The idea that psionics (or any kind of magic) is cast using your own hit points, generally that casting spell causes either actual damage or non-lethal damage to the caster. Its an interesting idea for sure.*shouted from cover*
Would people be more open to the idea of a power points system if the points in question were hit points?
*full defence*
I've always liked that idea as well, and Expanded Psionics allowed Overchannel or something else that traded HP for PP.
However, in a system with lots of easy and cheap healing, this wouldn't work nearly as easily.
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1. Spell points to me are the system that has no soul because it reduces spellcasting from an Art to keeping track of a fuel gauge. Vancian magic is what magic should be... arcane formulae and incantations.
Replace the term "spell points" with "spell slots". And your argument has crumbled. There's nothing about Vancian magic that is inherently disposed to "arcane formulae and incantations". Vancian just means you only have a certain amount of spell slots, you memorize spells into them at the begininning of the day, and they disappear when you cast them. Almost no mythological or fictional magic works like this outside of stuff that is actually based on D&D/Pathfinder/etc. There's Jack Vance's stuff, and....maybe one or two other things. Certainly nothing that's very noteworthy.
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My problem with psionics has always been that you can simply blow as many of your highest level 'spells' as you can until you run out of PP, then you force the rest of the party to stop. IMHO, psions should be able to do their thing all day without regard to power points, and they should have abilities that directly build off eachother.
So your solution to prevent the psion from Nova-ing and them making the party rest is to let him SPAM Nova? Hell, why don't we just make a new rule that all spellcasters can cast as many spells per day as they want ?
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I've always liked that idea as well, and Expanded Psionics allowed Overchannel or something else that traded HP for PP.However, in a system with lots of easy and cheap healing, this wouldn't work nearly as easily.
I believe there was a rule in 3.5 that said ability "burn" such as caused bu overchannel could only be healed naturally ie rest. This solved the burn up your int for extra power points and then get restoration cast on you.
I think Pathfinder already has enough different kinds of "points" to keep track of, the most important ones are hit points and experience points. Introducing point based psionics adds a third set of points as well, now imagine monster encounters keeping track of the creatures hit points, experience points you earn for killing it, and their psionics points. I'd rather keep it simple, and not strain one's brain with too many numbers per creature. I like having a list of spells, if you have a spell name on the list of memorized spells, you can cast it for each time its listed, it should not be, "Oh I have this psionic ability, but do I have enough points to use it? Oh I'm not sure I deducted my psion points last time I used an ability." It should be as easy as you use the spell and you cross it off or erase it from the list, and when you memorize it again, you decide what to memorize and put it back on the list.
Experience points are not something that is tracked in game. In many games, they are tracked only by the DM, if they are tracked at all.
There is very little that is more complicated about Power Points than remembering how many spells of a given level a sorcerer can cast, or keeping track of Ki Points or Grit points, or rounds of rage.
Most of the psychic heroes in fiction have nowhere near the breadth of power that a Pathfinder wizard has. They will typically have one or two tricks that can be rather flexible, and very little beyond that.
Most is not all. If I want a character that defines himself through his mental powers, a dedicated class makes more sense. And that's what I'm usually looking for in a manifester.
Ignoring what psychics are found in D&D fiction, one of the major sources about psions is Babylon 5. Though SciFi, that story has its share of fantasy elements. There, the Telepaths are usually defined through their telepathic abilities.
Plus, Daymar would resent being marginalised like that - that is, if he cared about this.
Plus, Daymar would resent being marginalised like that - that is, if he cared about this.
Good luck finding something he DOES care about. :)
The only thing that I have to add to this discussion is that I've never seen an argument AGAINST psionics in D&D that made any sense to me. So it's just another magic system: so what? What's the problem with one more option?
What's the problem with the 3PP solution (ie. just leaving psionics to Dreamscarred Press)?
OK. Fair enough question:
Although it's great what they (Dreamscarred Press) have done for psionics (backwards compatible with 3.5 -- to a degree), I DON'T LIKE the system they are using for psionics. It's just not for me. Hence the desire for someone else (e.g. Paizo) to make a different system that might be more to my liking as a "psionic" system.
And if the system developed by (e.g.) Paizo doesn't do it for me, then I'll look for another system/ developer that does or, failing that, continue with my own.
This is just MY answer to your question. Other people will feel differently, and that's OK. It's a game, and games should be about having fun. So shouldn't we all try to have fun by using what works for us?
Carry on.
-- C.
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I don't want psionics in Golarion, same way I didn't want guns either.
That said, I'd be perfectly happy with then in a world built around those concepts... such as a Pirate campaign or semi steampunk for Guns...or in the case of Psionics, the Dark Sun setting was brilliant and really worked with the concept.
I really don't want wither of them in the mainstream setting though.
I was dead set against Psionics at first, at least i thought i was. But then you bring up dark sun....sigh....happy times, great times, I LOVED darksun. Aroden i miss that setting.
Psionicists are not wizards. Most of the psychic heroes in fiction have nowhere near the breadth of power that a Pathfinder wizard has. They will typically have one or two tricks that can be rather flexible, and very little beyond that.
To be fair, most wizards in fiction fit the exact description you made for psychic heroes.
Pathfinder wizards and the breadth of power that comes with them don't really appear in fiction or mythology.
If I were Paizo, your answer just convinced me to not risk real money developing this system.
Just being honest.
I really do love the material that Paizo has and is still developing. And I do feel that Paizo could do a really awesome job developing a "psionic" system -- I'd certainly look into it (like I'd do with almost every "psionic" system I hear about).
But if I feel that the system is not appropriate for my games (lore, tone, mechanics, whatever) or it doesn't do it for me, I won't use it. That doesn't mean that I'd stop supporting Paizo. Just because one of their products doesn't appeal to me doesn't mean that I will stop getting more of their products. Nor does it mean that I have to use everything in a product of theirs that I do get.
And even if, hypothetically, the psionic system developed by Paizo doesn't do it for me, it doesn't mean that it won't be the holy grail of "psionics" for someone else
Yes, it is a risk to put money into developing something new to add to Pathfinder. They can't please everyone, and I understand that I may be part of that "everyone" sometimes. But I'm OK with that. Quality is one of the big draws of Paizo for me, not just the game. Besides, if Paizo didn't take informed risks in developing new ideas/ systems for their game, there would not be anything new.
That's all, I guess.
And Paizo, keep on developing whatever awesome additions to this great game you've got here.
Thanks!
-- C.
i like the modular lego ideas for psionics. take a base power and then add more tricks to it and strength say telekinsis for example starts out lift things then you could add more weight more range trip disarm bull rush dancing weapons multiple targets forcefields flight force blasts etc. and you could take a base for a ton of classic powers and build a whole slew of unique psionic characters.
have the abiltys useable at will at a low power setting and give them something like the magus's spell pool to modify for greater effect. so i could play around pretending to juggle with tk all day but not toss a giant in the air but a few times. that could be done with class levels or with feats for a slightly psionic character or one that devotes his life to the study of the mind.
example of dip: fighter picks up just a bit of tk so he can pull off cool jedi tricks like quick draw sword or pull his back to him when he is disarmed.
example of master: telekinetic god throwing objects around floating with bubble of force around him.
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[ Until then I think they should let Dreamscarred run with it for as long as possible.
How good it is? I like psionics in most RPG games but I never found a version I liked much for D&D/AD&D.
So if it is really good and mesh well with Pathfinder it would be worth buying it up.
d20pfsrd contains the Psionics Unleashed material.
There will also be a Psionics Expanded book with lots of extra psionics material. It is right now being released in pieces, each new part focussing on something specific. Mind over Body was about psionic healing, Find the Mark about psionic archery. You can "subscribe" to those parts and you get them all, and the final book itself for the same price as the final book alone will cost (so you basically get previews).
Thanks.
Maybe Telepathic attacks take place in a pseudo alternate reality (like a Decker running the Matrix in Shadowrun or like 'The Will and the Way' (an old Darksun add-on)).God no. Never. Never again.
I have played a Decker with the Matrix book. That was my single worst gaming experience with regard to the system itself (I've had worse experience but those were with creepy guys and not relevant to the system).
Matrix books in Shadowrun: great reading and flavour, toxic in game. But it is a common problem with all the cyberpunk games.
"let's split the party" is always problematic unless you have multiple GM, and a system that implement a 3 ways party split (normal reality, astral, matrix) ...... Ouch.
I have always liked the Shadowrun setting , but managing a party is a problem.
So: No, using a "pseudoreality" to manage psychic combat while nice in theory in practice is a problem.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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In (non-saga) Star Wars d20, the Jedi force powers did something like this.That's where I was stealing the idea from. I got reminded of it by the inclusion of the wounds/vitality system in UC. Thought if I brought it up though it might run the risk of fanning the flames of psionics being too sci fi. I really liked it as a system for representing that there was a cost to doing what others could not. If Jedi had been forced to spend their vitality for lightsaber defence as well then jedi would have been slightly more balanced but I still think its a better game than saga.
Anyone who does the 'psionics = sci-fi' bit I tell them two words "Darkover" and "Valdemar". :-)
Meanderings
Dreamscarred Psionics are balanced, you just have to understand them. :P
Heck most 'real world' magic (keeping Niven's law in mind) follows principles that can be defined and are sci-fi in their own way.
Pathfinder magic moreso.
As to Jedi in non-saga d20, they suffer from the problems that a lot of 3/x stuff did, role playing to balance power. My Jedi medic (not a healer, a counsular medic) had this in spades. Clear to the point that the DM was dazed and confused that I wanted to build a light saber with a 'stun setting' so I could knock out foes instead of just cut them apart.
(And we won't get into how the movies make a mockery of the Jedi Codes)
I just find the psionic = sci-fi a copout.
There's a good way to emulate psychic powers without using a Vancian system. That would be a skill based system like the magic system for Black Company.
Fatigue, sickness, other and actual ability damage for different levels of failure when you push yourself.
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To be fair, psionics are no less fantasy than flying ships.
Plus, Daymar would resent being marginalised like that - that is, if he cared about this.Good luck finding something he DOES care about. :)
Don't harsh his mellow!
The only thing that I have to add to this discussion is that I've never seen an argument AGAINST psionics in D&D that made any sense to me. So it's just another magic system: so what? What's the problem with one more option?
It's just jealousy they want to hide. They're envious about the fact that our hands don't stink of bat crap.
"But psionics uses these fancy words like metaphysical and ectoplasm, that's not proper fantasy"
"Talk about fancy words, mister Calls-Bat-S+!+-Guano-To-Seem-Classy."
We manifesters can walk up a wall without eating a live spider first, and that's why we'll always rule.
I was dead set against Psionics at first, at least i thought i was.
Is telepathy awesome or what?
I'm not against psionics in pathfinder, I'd just like to point out that the difference between psionics and arcane magic is the same difference between arcane magic and divine magic. All forms alter reality, they just have different sources. One comes from a person's mental ability, one comes from arcane energies flowing around, and one comes from deities granting power. Psionics in fantasy have the same range of power in literature as magic. From subtle to earth shattering, but usually subtle. Any system made for psionics could work just as well for any other magic.
The only real argument against psionics being another form of magic is to say it doesn't fit thematically.