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Anyway I should stop derailing this thread by talking about star wars and just say I hope that Paizo does include psionics (their own or adopting the ones from dreamscarred press) out of the purely selfish reason that one day I want to see Vudra.
I'm in the same boat, because I would dearly love to see a Vudra sourcebook/AP/anything soon and something for Castrovel.
Ideally, I hope they can implement Dreamscarred's take because, well it works and it's what most psionics fans really seem to want. After all, the Tome of Horrors and other third party products have gotten a lot of milage and have made their impressions on the campaign setting already.
that whole post
Your post is good and you should feel good.
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The only real argument against psionics being another form of magic is to say it doesn't fit thematically.
But it fits perfectly. Vudrans are all over it, and I think Castrovel would just fall down without all the psi holding it up.
I'm in the same boat, because I would dearly love to see a Vudra sourcebook/AP/anything soon and something for Castrovel.Anyway I should stop derailing this thread by talking about star wars and just say I hope that Paizo does include psionics (their own or adopting the ones from dreamscarred press) out of the purely selfish reason that one day I want to see Vudra.
Going by upcoming releases, it looks like we may get a look at Castrovel first.
Which is certainly a bit odd, and perhaps just a bit disappointing: Vudra, after all, is part of Golarion, while Castrovel is not. But there you go.
And I'm not the least bit bothered by the idea of treating psionics as "mind magic" or what-have-you. It's an occasional point of debate with the mister.
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I'm in the same boat, because I would dearly love to see a Vudra sourcebook/AP/anything soon and something for Castrovel.Anyway I should stop derailing this thread by talking about star wars and just say I hope that Paizo does include psionics (their own or adopting the ones from dreamscarred press) out of the purely selfish reason that one day I want to see Vudra.
Going by upcoming releases, it looks like we may get a look at Castrovel first.
Which is certainly a bit odd, and perhaps just a bit disappointing: Vudra, after all, is part of Golarion, while Castrovel is not. But there you go.
And I'm not the least bit bothered by the idea of treating psionics as "mind magic" or what-have-you. It's an occasional point of debate with the mister.
It's just one of these things, like we have more pictures of Mars than we have pictures of the deepest depths of our own planet.
There's a good way to emulate psychic powers without using a Vancian system. That would be a skill based system like the magic system for Black Company.
Fatigue, sickness, other and actual ability damage for different levels of failure when you push yourself.
The problem with skill-based systems is that skill points tend to be rather precious. Actually, all of the character components (class levels, feats, skill points, spells slots) are rather precious.
I loved Psionics in 3.5, I loved Complete Psionic a double-handful more, and they can almost run straight in Pathfinder...
The system has been carried over with your Power Point Pool and everything in the Dreamscarred Press version, and it's very faithful, very well done. I even like the small flavor changes and the new races.
It sounds like some people want Psionics to be COMPLETELY seperate though, a non-vancian style... so what you want is a witch/3.5 Warlock style of thing, with hex/incantatins that can be used as spell-like abilities at will?
You would need/want a full-progression and half-progression discipline for each of the styles of psionics, I think. Egoist (Force), Metabolist or Biokinetics (Boost), Telepath (Mind), Psychoporter (Bamf), Ectopath (Poof), Clairsentient (*blink*). So you could have a sorcerer-style bloodline for your half-progression (at these levels you will gain...) and a Qinggong Monk style power-list for your full progression, with 10 choices at every odd level. You pick your power carefully, and then wail on dudes at will. Like psychic combat maneuvers. And in the case of Telepathy and Egoism, actual Psychic Combat Maneuvers. You could even have 'Focus' and 'Push' expendable options for pumping your manifestations to a higher power for daily 'high level spell use'.
So you'd have characters who were Egoist sub-Metabolists, and Metabolist sub-Sentients, and Telepath sub-Porters...
Lots of interesting options and flavor mixing for what kind of character you want to play. I might even make Telepathy a universal thing. All psychics are Teeps. That kinda thing.
I loved Psionics in 3.5, I loved Complete Psionic a double-handful more, and they can almost run straight in Pathfinder...
The system has been carried over with your Power Point Pool and everything in the Dreamscarred Press version, and it's very faithful, very well done. I even like the small flavor changes and the new races.
It sounds like some people want Psionics to be COMPLETELY seperate though, a non-vancian style... so what you want is a witch/3.5 Warlock style of thing, with hex/incantatins that can be used as spell-like abilities at will?
You would need/want a full-progression and half-progression discipline for each of the styles of psionics, I think. Egoist (Force), Metabolist or Biokinetics (Boost), Telepath (Mind), Psychoporter (Bamf), Ectopath (Poof), Clairsentient (*blink*). So you could have a sorcerer-style bloodline for your half-progression (at these levels you will gain...) and a Qinggong Monk style power-list for your full progression, with 10 choices at every odd level. You pick your power carefully, and then wail on dudes at will. Like psychic combat maneuvers. And in the case of Telepathy and Egoism, actual Psychic Combat Maneuvers. You could even have 'Focus' and 'Push' expendable options for pumping your manifestations to a higher power for daily 'high level spell use'.
So you'd have characters who were Egoist sub-Metabolists, and Metabolist sub-Sentients, and Telepath sub-Porters...
Lots of interesting options and flavor mixing for what kind of character you want to play. I might even make Telepathy a universal thing. All psychics are Teeps. That kinda thing.
Hmm... Psionics are "at-will" powers. I kinda like it. They would have to be balanced against magic, so a lot weaker than most spells.
So a first level Kineticist could get, say, mage hand, a 1d3+level/2 ranged touch attack (telekinetic punch) and possibly +1 AC, all usable at will. A telepath would have mind link, thought shield (+2 will save vs. mind effecting abilities) and mind thrust (save or 1d3+daze for 1 round).
It definitely needs work, but I could see it being lots of fun.
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While I am glad Paizo took a look at guns, developed rules and put them into the Ultimate combat, as a matter of personal taste, I do not like guns in what I think of as a “Sword and Sorcery” setting. I have a violent dislike for guns So I won’t be allowing guns in my home campaigns, no matter how much whining I get.
You're not talking about Golarion being a 'Sword & Sorcery' setting? Because guns are written into it. As is technology, and through Numeria, psionics should come about.
I love the fact that Paizo develops rules for everything, rather than just Sword & Sorcery.
I haven't really been following this thread. Yes I am talking about Golaron as being a Sword and Sorcery setting. Well to be more accurate, Golaron I find to be a "kitchen sink setting."
There is something here for everyone. If you go around the periphery of the map, you will find plenty of "variant" elements. In the shackles you have pirates. In the Mwangi expanse you have dinosaurs and winged demon gorillas. Next is Geb where you have an undead nation with zombie plantations. Between Geb and Nex, you have the Manna wastes. There you have "wild " or Primal magic, and dead magic. You also have Alkenstar, and with the absence of magic, guns. Next you have Jarmelay and the Vudrani. There you can easily have Psionics. Further north you have Qadira, a "Middle Eastern" area with genies etc. Further north you have Taldor, near the middle In terms of North South, which is a more traditional feudal area. To the north of Taldor along the edge of the map is Galt, a place where democracy went horribly wrong, you have an area resembling a bloody time in the French revolution with people being fed to the Guillotine, with revolutionaries and counter revolutionaries. As I continue north there are lots of interesting things going on in the river kingdoms. Next to the River Kingdoms you have Numeria. In Numeria you have a downed space ship, Adamantine, and all sorts of “robotic” monstrosities. It reminds me a bit of Thundar the barbarian, and expedition to the barrier peaks, and possibly elements of the Sword of Shanara series…As I travel east along the periphery of the map, there is Mendev and the World wound, a “Holy” crusade against a Demonic infestation and invasion. Next to the World wound is the Realm of the Mammoth lords, there you can find all of the Pleistocene Megafauna you want. Next as you continue east along the northern edge of the map you have Irrisien, a land locked in perpetual winter, perhaps inspired by CS Lewis’s the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe book, perhaps by earlier Russian tales and legends with Baba Yaga and her chicken legged hut. As I travel east I reach the coast and the Land of the Linorm Kings. Vikings. Have I forgotten something? Yes Ustalave, if you want a “ravenloft” setting with vampires were wolves and other things that go bump in the night.
I am sure there are other things I have forgotten. But as a GM with this kitchen sink set up, it is fairly easy for me to pick and choose what elements I want in my own campaign, and I can leave what I don’t like where it is. For example If I don’t like guns, it will be fairly easy for me to say, leave them in Alkenstar, and make up some plot device like Alkenstar has been able to keep their guns to themselves, or magic interferes with the workings of the gunpowder or something like that. The reason doesn’t really matter nor does it have to be logical. But I can keep guns isolated there if I want to.
On the other hand, I happen to like Psionics. I can easily say Psionics has been slowly spreading form Jarmalay, through the teachings of the followers of Iorori. It has been slowly spreading from monastery to monastery. If you want advanced teaching you have to go to Jarmelay.
I happen to like Mind Flayers and Aboleth. It is fairly easy for me to incorporate the “cosmic book ends” idea from the 3.5 Lords of madness book. But I realize because of intellectual property concerns, I will never see an official product from Paizo with a mind flayer. Is that a problem? No- I can stick them in myself. I never liked beholders so I don’t mind that they are not going to show up in any official Paizo materiel.
If I like Dinosaurs I can easily in corporate them throughout the wilderness areas, and if I don’t, I can say they are isolated in the Mwangi expanse.
In short I like that there is something for everyone in Golaron. I like that you can take the elements you like for your campaign and leave the elements you don’t like out of your campaign
Hmm... Psionics are "at-will" powers. I kinda like it. They would have to be balanced against magic, so a lot weaker than most spells.
So a first level Kineticist could get, say, mage hand, a 1d3+level/2 ranged touch attack (telekinetic punch) and possibly +1 AC, all usable at will. A telepath would have mind link, thought shield (+2 will save vs. mind effecting abilities) and mind thrust (save or 1d3+daze for 1 round).
It definitely needs work, but I could see it being lots of fun.
If there's a market for it, I'll write it.
@Lillith's Thrall - VoodooMike was asking (way back in post three) for something completely different than the vancian stylings already offered by the system. Balancing Non-Vancian 'magic' with the traditional mem-cast-forget spellcasting power levels is tricksy, so would need a completely new system.
I wouldn't be so stingy on the at-will attacks there, Dilvias. Compare to the Warlocks Eldritch Blast. It's no different than a bow or crossbow.
I might have them skinned like this:
*Metacreative: 1d8+Wisdom Mod piercing, no SR, regular attack roll.
*Egoist: 1d4+Wisdom Mod force, SR, touch attack roll.
*Telepath: 1d4+Wisdom Mod untyped damage, SR, Mind Affecting, will save/half
*Psychoportive: 1d6+Wisdom Mod p/s/b, no SR, regular attack roll, can defeat DR with prepared toys (a cold iron dagger, for instance)
*Biokinetic: 1d6+Wisdom Mod Acid, no SR, reflex save/half
*Clairsentient: 1d6+Wisdom Mod Fire + Dazzle, SR, fort save/half damage and no dazzle
I might even re-bind them to individual attributes like before. Metacreative uses dex, egoist uses cha, telepath uses int, psychoportive uses wis, biokinetic uses con/str, and clairsentient uses wis... I would need to confer with my editor/wife and my group and get a round-table of opinions, run a little focus group... ;p
If you hate the power-pool style of psionics, I can offer alternatives, it'll just take me some time to hash out.
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am sure there are other things I have forgotten. But as a GM with this kitchen sink set up, it is fairly easy for me to pick and choose what elements I want in my own campaign, and I can leave what I don’t like where it is. For example If I don’t like guns, it will be fairly easy for me to say, leave them in Alkenstar, and make up some plot device like Alkenstar has been able to keep their guns to themselves, or magic interferes with the workings of the gunpowder or something like that. The reason doesn’t really matter nor does it have to be logical. But I can keep guns isolated there if I want to.Paizo already has you covered. Alkenstar keeps almost all of the guns it ever makes so that they will always have them as an advantage.
Thank you. I don't particularily mind Alkenstar...to me it kind of makes sense...no magic, so now we have guns....but its isolated.
I would prefer all of these elements, even the ones i don't like to be in some corner of Golaron. This way the setting can appeal to a much wider group of gamers. In one corner of the map, you can have a "pirates of the Caribean" type campaign say in the Shackles, and on the opposite side of the map, you can have huge robotic metal spiders spouting fire.....or you can have none of that.
you can take what you want and leave what you want.
Reasons I don't see Psionics being added anytime soon:
1) Not a large enough group of players (and the boards are not a complete representation) feel a burning need for psionics. Those that do, get their 'fix' easily from Dreamscarred Press.
2) The ones that do want Psionics, are divided between wanting the SRD version upgraded, or something new. For the upgrade see reason 1).
3) There isn't anybody, that I am aware of, on the Paizo staff that really wants to do a Psionics book. It is a niche product that is easily handled by 3pps. Again, see 1). Not saying Paizo hates psionics, just that they are not feeling a need.
4) Given that Paizo tries not to take the bread & butter away from their 3pp partners, they may not feel an urge to ruin DSP's bread & butter product line. I would see it more likely that Paizo just adopt Psionics Unleashed as 'official' psionics in Pathfinder. Saves them from developing a system, as well as keeping a partner in business.
It is easier to see Paizo 'farming' out the niche markets of the Pathfinder Verse (so to speak) than using limited resources to develop their own stuff, that might not sale that well.
So, uh, wow. Thanks for the accolades! I'm glad my post was so well received. Bad grammar and misspelling and all!
I partially agree with LillithsThrall there - make it easily understood and remembered, and people might start to come around.
3) There isn't anybody, that I am aware of, on the Paizo staff that really wants to do a Psionics book. It is a niche product that is easily handled by 3pps. Again, see 1). Not saying Paizo hates psionics, just that they are not feeling a need.
I'm not sure. They purposefully introduced psionics into the campaign with Vudrans (and that one planet), and I think that's because they felt the need. I don't know that Paizo can just ignore it and hope it goes away into a corner that 3PP can handle, since they've established it as canon in their own core campaign setting. Especially since I've seen that they're coming out with a book that focuses on that psionic world.
If anyone's interested Purplefixer's got a poll up here.
He's interested in input and suggestions.
1) At some point in D&D's past, psionics were introduced and over-all people didn't like it as it just didn't blend well with the system. Plus, as with any fandom, there's the cries of "but that changes too much!" and is thus rejected by many, but it garnered its own little (probably vocal to the company) fan-group.
2) With Darksun's sudden integration as a primary world, it was forced into our collective consciousness as super-canon - an element of the game that was unpopular once, but could never be fully expunged. An entire setting was now based around it. Darksun was (I think) relatively well received, but it had it's own mechanics and those really didn't work well elsewhere... but it was considered canon just as much as everything else.
3) Players are taught like anyone else - by learning from their peers and elders. Opinions are handed down, and, as with most people, prejudices are handed down too - often changed over time by the bearer, and certainly often altered from teacher to student. In the end, however, some people have inherited a dislike for psionics. Even if no-one ever explicitly said "psionics is awful", it comes across in bearing, mannerisms, and general attitude. You tend to reflect the attitudes of those you hang out with.
4) Now we have artifacts of all those old things - psionics exists, it's part of the 'super-canon', and thus not going away, but old grudges (handed down) still exist against the concept. The practice might be fine, but people still hate it because they're trained to.
The exact same thing happens with society in general. It's the way racism, sexism, jingoism, and any other "-ism" you can think of happens. Something rocks the boat, doesn't or can't leave, and grudges form over generations. Considering the game came out in the seventies, we're on something like the third (and now often forth) generation of gamers. That's a lot of time to stew.
Still, although it's a minor matter when compared to other social ills, it's something that worth fighting for - I think variety is something that games can use to their advantage, rather than stagnation.
At any rate, if anything, I'm betting on something that ties in with Ki for Pathfinder's variant. I'm not sure I'd prefer that (or even my own suggestion in the other poll-forum), but it'd be most likely based off the way they present themselves.
(Edited for clarity)
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Only as long as they are as gimped as guns.
Heh. The Pathfinder guns are gimped so much I doubt I'll ever use them. And I likely wont include gunslingers either. If I'm running a PFS game, I'll tolerate them, but not in any home games.
And this is coming from someone who likes their sword and sorcery to be at the level of technology as in Pirates of the Caribbean, so I dont have a problem with single shot firearms.
As for Pathfinder Psionics, I'm cool with it, so long as they keep Vancian casting (or provide a variant to switch all of the other casters off of vancian casting). I'm cool with a type of psionic mage with an all psionic spell-list (slightly weaker to account for no verbal or somatic components), but having seen both, Power Points are much more powerful than vancian casting.
I could get behind roll-based casting. Something similar to casting in Ghosts of Albion could be cool. Spellcasting roll, failures can cause horrible magical accidents, casting fatigue with a threshold for spells that no longer cause you any fatigue. It's a pretty nice system. The mages can cast any spell they know at any time, but they take penalties based on how many spells theyve recently cast (without 2 hours of resting).. In ghosts though, anyone can cast spells, but you need to be a mage to cast spells in a single round, or from memory. For everyone else it requires complex and time consuming rituals. So fireball would have like a 10 minute cast time if the fighter is casting it.
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"Talk about fancy words, mister Calls-Bat-S&@*-Guano-To-Seem-Classy."We manifesters can walk up a wall without eating a live spider first, and that's why we'll always rule.
Why you think I have taken Eschew materials?
You can find a psionic power that create you a resort on measure for your needs (Mage's Magnificent Mansion)?
I think a lot of people who don't want psionics just don't want the 3X psionics variant. But, make it a different (but very easily understood and remembered) optional game expansion with no quasi-scientific elements and the potential customer base will expand.
This is pretty much me. It's not so much that I don't want to see psionics at all, ever. It's more that I didn't particular like the 3.X variant. To me, an interesting psioncs system should be different and have its own justification for existing, rather than just being an 'alternate magic system' for people who don't like the current magic system (that could be a fine subject for its own book. No reason to tie the psionic label to that).
I removed a post. Do not post any content that infringes and/or violates any patent, trademark, copyright, or other proprietary right of any third party.
Thank you, Ross. Keepin' the peace.