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Cartigan, I make a lot of my decisions based on "fluff reasoning". That's because I expect the mechanics to serve the flavor of the game and the stories people want to tell.
That really doesn't work for the summoner. Most of the summoner mechanics were created, literally created, to limit the Eidolon's power to try and balance it. They both failed miserably and managed to create a bunch of confusing Eidolon-only rules.
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While interesting, the synthetisist is probably the worst archetype released so far.
It's like 3.5 wildshape, only more confusing.
9) Does the synthetisist retains his own natural attacks while fused?
9a) How does this work with the maximum on natural attacks?
9b) How does it work with natural attacks gained through aspect?
10) How are larger than medium synthetists supposed to work? It's pretty hard for a large creature to be inside a medium one. Although I doubt that that would come up, considering that most large creatures would lose hit points by fusing.
Having more than two hand will not qualify you for multiattack though since the Synthesist cannot take the feat himself...
a synthesist gets multiattack for free while fused at lvl 10.
a synthesist can take two weapon fighting and then when he fuses and has more than 2 arms, it becomes replaced by multiweapon fighting.
Also a synthesist can directly qualify for multiweapon fighting at lvl 10 when he can pick up extra arms through his aspect ability.
Also a synthesist could directly qualify for multiweapon fighting by staying fused for more than a day during an early lvl(by avoiding sleeping). bonuses that last for more than 24 hours are considered permanent.
Well yes, a synthesist get multiattack on level 10 but he still can't pick it earlier since he don't qualify for it...
For the multiweapon fighting who automatically replace the two-weapon fighting feat : I think a special abilities of a feat doesn't automatically work when you don't have the feat ? :D
The only thing this "special" of the abilities say is you are considered as having two-weapon fighting for the purpose of feat pre-requisite, that's all, this special abilities won't work if you don't have the feat...
And multiweapon fighting is a "monster feat", not automatically available to players...
After level ten I am well aware the Synthesist can have it through class abilities... But at this level I consider this fair ;)
No level 4 synthesist with 6 arms and 6 weapons... That's all :p
While interesting, the synthetisist is probably the worst archetype released so far.
It's like 3.5 wildshape, only more confusing.
I don't think this is that confusing, every class has it's own "special rules"... But they are here for so long that we forgot how confusing or unbalanced they were at the begining... Look at the first barbarian rage for example... :p
9) Does the synthetisist retains his own natural attacks while fused?
9a) How does this work with the maximum on natural attacks?
9b) How does it work with natural attacks gained through aspect?
Now that's a tricky one... Think I would go by the "don't stack take the better" rule ;)
10) How are larger than medium synthetists supposed to work? It's pretty hard for a large creature to be inside a medium one. Although I doubt that that would come up, considering that most large creatures would lose hit points by fusing.
That one is easy : It don't work since it's clearly stated "The eidolon must be at least the same size as the synthesist.", so no large synthesist with medium eidolon...
I think the synthesist archetype would be awesome if someone from the Paizo rules side of the house would just chime in and lay out the final answer, from Paizo's perspective, to our questions.
I actually love the idea behind it, and the rules would be fine too if the designers would just answer some questions. Yes, this archetype comes wrapped up with one-off rules and exceptions to rules, but I can live with that as long as there is some closure to the remaining questions we all have about the grey areas.
It goes without saying that we can house rule the answers to our questions but I think we agree that that is not what we are looking for here; we want to know what the Paizo rules staff thinks.
Good gaming to all,
DJF
This.
The reason an eidolon can't wear armor is because armor (but no other clothing) interrupts the creature's connection with the summoner.
Since the synthesist and his eidolon are fused, wearing armor can't interrupt their connection. An armored synthesist shuld be fine.
More like, the synthesist is wearing armor and then fuses, the eidelon is now wearing armor, the armor blocks their connection (even when fused their minds are seperate) so the eidelon blinks out (the summoner can no longer hold him to this plane because he cant feel his presence)
If you want to use fluff reasoning, this makes more sense and follows the rules.
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Hi
Just to muddy the waters even further....
Since the Sythesist and the Eidolon are both one. Some people say the Synthesist can't wear/use armour. Arcording to that logic, the PC doesn't get skills nor feats, since:
"The Eidolon has no skills or feats..." (Pg 80, top right hand column).
Personally, I'd change the wording about the armour bonus gained each level, so that it only counts as armour, not Nat Armour. Then specify that the Synthesist uses the best of the armour values from either the level based bonus, or armour he's wearing. (Nat Armour from base Eidolon type, plus evolutions, etc stack with armour).
Eg. Synthesist 1 wears Mithral Shirt (+4 Armour). Biped form has +2 Nat Armour, plus Evolution for extra +2 Nat. These stack.
Synthesist lvl 2 with same armour, could use the +2 armour bonus (lvl 2) OR the Mithral Shirt. They DON'T stack.
Just a suggestion until the clarification.
Thanks
Paul H
PS I've got a Human Synthesist in PFS. So far the GM's ruled that they all stack.
The reason an eidolon can't wear armor is because armor (but no other clothing) interrupts the creature's connection with the summoner.
Since the synthesist and his eidolon are fused, wearing armor can't interrupt their connection. An armored synthesist shuld be fine.
More like, the synthesist is wearing armor and then fuses, the eidelon is now wearing armor, the armor blocks their connection (even when fused their minds are seperate) so the eidelon blinks out (the summoner can no longer hold him to this plane because he cant feel his presence)
If you want to use fluff reasoning, this makes more sense and follows the rules.
"So, what you're saying is to stop the Druid from ravaging our forces e have to trick him into wearing a chain shirt?"
Well yes, a synthesist get multiattack on level 10 but he still can't pick it earlier since he don't qualify for it...
I'd actually argue your opinion that the feat automatically changes from TWF to MWF just because you gain a limb over 2. I would actually say you have to make the decision to take MWF or TWF. If you choose MWF as a summoner as you have the eidolon supplying more limbs, you'd lose access to the feat when not fused. You wouldn't get a free downgrade to TWF.
Calikang (page 307, Inner Sea World Guide) is a Lagre Monster with Two Weapon Fighting, Double Slice and 6 Arms. While it normally only wields 2 Manufactured Weapons, it can use all 6 arms to wield Weapons.
It is also the only multi armed monster not to cheat, with the Multi Weapon Fighting / Multi Weapon Master combo, such as the Marilith. So yes it is not a requirement for Monsters to take MWF, it just has lower requirements than TWF.
"So, what you're saying is to stop the Druid from ravaging our forces e have to trick him into wearing a chain shirt?"The reason an eidolon can't wear armor is because armor (but no other clothing) interrupts the creature's connection with the summoner.
Since the synthesist and his eidolon are fused, wearing armor can't interrupt their connection. An armored synthesist shuld be fine.
More like, the synthesist is wearing armor and then fuses, the eidelon is now wearing armor, the armor blocks their connection (even when fused their minds are seperate) so the eidelon blinks out (the summoner can no longer hold him to this plane because he cant feel his presence)
If you want to use fluff reasoning, this makes more sense and follows the rules.
The rule is there because druids despise wearing metal armor, if he was tricked into wearing some it would be pretty metagamey if the druid didnt stop to take it off immediately. So yeah that could work.
so if you have more than 2 arms, it replaces the two weapon fighting feat. So if you have two weapon fighting, it turns into multiweapon fighting.This :
I'd actually argue your opinion that the feat automatically changes from TWF to MWF just because you gain a limb over 2.
I think that if you want to use the special in a feat you have to take the feat beforehands... So If you take multiweapon fighting you have effectively two-weapon fighting for feat asking it as a pre-requisite that's all the special gives you, it's not an automatic transformation magically gained... And you don't have to take two-weapon fighting to take multi-weapon fighting...
But this is how I would play it... ;)Seriously try and find the rule that states that players cannot take monster feats. monster feats like other feats have prerequisites. If the players meet those prerequisites, they can take the feat. A player doesn't need special permission to use a monster feat any more than they would need special permission to take skill focus.
The Bestiaries are not player's book... They are DM only books... So the feat in the MM are not for the players... That's as simple as that for me ;)
As a DM I can authorize some of these feats to my players but they can't choose it as they wish (well since they don't have the Bestiaries they even don't know of them all ;) )
No level 4 synthesist with 6 arms and 6 weapons... That's all :p
unless the lvl 4 synthesist uses one of the methods I already outlined.
And you think that, as a DM, I will let him do it ? :D
He has to use a DM only books, just for that he has to ask if he can take the feat ;)They are free to take everything from the player's book (We currently use : Core+APG+UM) everything else is subject to DM approval... ;)
The rule is there because druids despise wearing metal armor, if he was tricked into wearing some it would be pretty metagamey if the druid didnt stop to take it off immediately. So yeah that could work."So, what you're saying is to stop the Druid from ravaging our forces e have to trick him into wearing a chain shirt?"The reason an eidolon can't wear armor is because armor (but no other clothing) interrupts the creature's connection with the summoner.
Since the synthesist and his eidolon are fused, wearing armor can't interrupt their connection. An armored synthesist shuld be fine.
More like, the synthesist is wearing armor and then fuses, the eidelon is now wearing armor, the armor blocks their connection (even when fused their minds are seperate) so the eidelon blinks out (the summoner can no longer hold him to this plane because he cant feel his presence)
If you want to use fluff reasoning, this makes more sense and follows the rules.
You missed my point that that is stupid. "Here, hold this sword that is totally not metal" "Ok... omg, I can't use druid powers any more!" "hahaha, it totally was metal."
BBEG Druid : HAHA! I will destroy you when I wildshape into a dragon!
Party Wizard : Polymorph Any Object, Druid Dragon Scale to Lead Scale
BBEG Druid : ACK! My armor is metal! CURSE YOU WIZARD!
EDIT : If the dragonhide is magical, then polymorph the druid's clothes to metal plating over the dragon scale.
EDIT Edit : Works really well on monks too (polymorph any object -> Clothes to Padded Armor)
EDIT^3 : Of cours, monks are much more likely to make the fort save for their attended objects. Same with Barbarians.
Repost from last night as the system ate it
"Calikang (page 307, Inner Sea World Guide) is a Lagre Monster with Two Weapon Fighting, Double Slice and 6 Arms. While it normally only wields 2 Manufactured Weapons, it can use all 6 arms to wield Weapons.
It is also the only multi armed monster not to cheat, with the Multi Weapon Fighting / Multi Weapon Master combo, such as the Marilith."
So not all multi armed monsters have MWF, so it is a choice, as TWF has higher pre-requistis, but can leed onto more.
sounds like you were unable to find any rules to support your argument because you didn't quote anything. you can of course modify things any way you want in games you dm. A dm can ban anything he wants. you would be just as justified in banning your players from using weapon focus.
Uh ? The first phrase of the Bestiaries is "Welcome to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary! Within the pages of this tome you will encounter a wide range of monsters and creatures to pit against your players as they explore your world."... That make it a GM book by definition no ?
And do you allow anyone to take improved natural armor too, since anyone is qualified for it ? :)
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Made one Phil Mcmahon's ROTRL game (fellow players stay out)
Arem(i): Okay, so I really didn’t mean to get into so much trouble. It has to do with my father’s business, well rather it’s my business now that he’s dead, other than the small detail of Overlord Cromacky confiscated the establishment after I put my claws through a couple of his thugs; that and the fact that he wants me dead. That and the fact that I have claws now some of the time, and the fact---
Komi: What are you complaining about? I was stuck in a sealed jar for seven thousand years.
A: Can I tell my story now?
K: Can I stop you---wait I can, but go ahead.
A: Thank you. Anyway, the shop was located in the free-coin district in Riddleport. We supply ready cash to the gamblers and adventurers for the interesting trinkets and knickknacks that they come in with at a generous price.
K: Because the Para Countess supplied him with ready supply of funds in exchange for sending items south.
A: My parents were Cheliaxian. They were patriots…except when they were run out of the country.
K: And except when they had some of the stuff the Cybermages wanted.
A: Okay, my dad had some prominent business associates.
K: Anyway, my jar comes through their shop, and this one drops it.
A: And I get stuck with you in my body.
K: Which you should be grateful for, considering the improvements I’ve made.
A: They are not improvements.
K: You would be dead without them.
A: But I wouldn’t be running for my life in the first place.
K: But you are, so we have to deal with that.
A: You turned me into a GIRL!
K: I needed to work with a body more like what I was used to. It was an emergency. Besides, you’ll get better.
A: That’s good. (Note: To Komi this means adjust to the new reality. To Arem(i), it means what was done will wear off and everything will be fine, which it would, with a wish. Note that Komi has a +17 to bluff at first level and Arem(i) has no points in sense motive. Story wise she could only perform this change once when they were binding.)
K: We’re cute when we blush.
A: There is no we!
K: There was a ‘we’ last time.
A: What last time?
K: Before I got put in the jar and buried.
A: Why did you get put in the jar?
K: Treason against the Runelords? It was something we did? At least I think that’s what they called it? I’m somewhat amnesic.
A: Thalren de sho ronan, (looks horrified). I’m speaking Thassilonian.
K: Yes, it was, though I’m fuzzy on what that was. And of course we’re speaking Thassilonian. We’re sharing the same brain.
A: Anyway, the long and short of it is that Overlord Cromacky wanted the jar that Komi came in for some reason. Dad was going to give it to them and I was getting it, except I tripped on the gold altar to Roverag and dropped it. It got smashed and I was getting possessed. The guards I think thought Father was holding out on them and killed Dad. They were coming after me when I grew claws and slit their throats.
K: You peed your pants.
A: And that’s when I noticed your ‘modifications’.
K: And panicked again, which is when I took over and we fled for our lives.
A: Which is how we ended up in Sandport. Where I’ll set up a shop or get a job with that scholar, Quink, and nothing more dangerous than the Swallowtail festival will happen ever again.
K: Undoubtedly. (Arem(i) misses the ironic part of this completely.)
Appearance:
Arem(i) is small, has long dark hair and dresses in a scholars clothing. She has dimples and wears glasses. She was not as charismatic prior to her transformation, and will at times be awkward and timid, though it will come off as cute. Her dress is simple, and subtly masculine. She is tiny, so much so that she sometimes is taken as an adolescent.
Komi has no physical form but when active their shared body is about ten inches taller. The skin and body take on a vaguely metallic look, rather like an Assimar. All dimples and bodily marks disappear. Komi never wears glasses. She has what looks to be a tattoo on her forhead that is her Eidolon’s mark. One memorable thing is she says things and people just take it for granted that it’s true. (Ex: I’m a gold dragon cursed with this current form, as soon as I get back to my hoard I can pick up the money I owe you. Can you extend me credit in the meantime?)
Questions:
Why the two names?
Arem is the masculine version of the name while Aremi is the feminine version of the name. At some point during the campaign She’ll start introducing herself as Aremi.
That other thing?
I’d like to handle it subtly. Have people come looking for him at some point. I am going to make a chart that covers her changing mentality with about twenty steps and will make a will save after every session. Basically, I’m going for a very slow, non disruptive slide for the character as Komi and Aremi become more and more alike.
I will not mention it until NPCs bring it up as Arem is rather embarrassed by the situation.
What exactly is Komi?
Something Thassilonian. Powers will suggest something vaguely fey in origin. The details should be very vague and I as a player wish to start connecting things to plot points you throw in. Amnesia is intentional. The only detail is that she was an eidolon in the past, very powerful and is now much diminished.
Breakdown of stats.
Race: Human
10 Str
10 Dex
14 Con
8 Wis
16 Int
17 Cha
Note in Hybrid form I will be using Komi’s physical stats and Arem’s mental stats.
Evolutions: Bite, Improved natural armor, skilled (bluff)
Traits: Riddleport Fast Talker, Thassilonian Scholar.
Alignment: CN or TN
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative.
I found it had some rather interesting roleplaying options as you can probably tell. I tried to not be to much of a min/maxer (we're playing with a couple newbies) and found that hard. I asked the armor question of my GM and found that mechanically it made little difference, studded leather all the time (only 70 GP) verse mage armor when I' m expecting combat, basically one spell slot. What was powerful was being able to concentrate points on mental stats.
You missed my point that that is stupid. "Here, hold this sword that is totally not metal" "Ok... omg, I can't use druid powers any more!" "hahaha, it totally was metal."
For one, their is no rule that a druid cant carry a massive metal great-sword, just no metal armor, otherwise yes if you can get a druid to wear your breastplate you've just taken him out of combat. (how he doesn't notice it is metal in the 5 rounds it takes to put it on is beyond me)
Uh ? The first phrase of the Bestiaries is "Welcome to the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Bestiary! Within the pages of this tome you will encounter a wide range of monsters and creatures to pit against your players as they explore your world."... That make it a GM book by definition no ?
And do you allow anyone to take improved natural armor too, since anyone is qualified for it ? :)
I'm not seeing it, and yes I let them take it if they qualify. No not all PC's qualify, it says they have to have natural armor not a natural armor bonus. (so +0 doesn't qualify)
The DM rules are in the core rulebook, does that make it a DM only book?
Repost from last night as the system ate it
"Calikang (page 307, Inner Sea World Guide) is a Lagre Monster with Two Weapon Fighting, Double Slice and 6 Arms. While it normally only wields 2 Manufactured Weapons, it can use all 6 arms to wield Weapons.
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It is also the only multi armed monster not to cheat, with the Multi Weapon Fighting / Multi Weapon Master combo, such as the Marilith."
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So not all multi armed monsters have MWF, so it is a choice, as TWF has higher pre-requistis, but can leed onto more.
It may just be me, but when I read "this feat replaces TWF" for multiple limbed creatures clause, in effect I see another feat tree created. Taking it further it would imply there is actually another feat tree progression for multiple limbed creatures (improved multiple weapon fighting, greater multiple weapon fighting).
As for the cheating, I wouldn't call it that. These creatures are supposed to be nasty and short of giving them multiple bonus feats and abilities, which is in effect a more serious "cheat," I'd rather the developers just create an ability which is outside the realm of PC accessibility and have "Multiweapon Mastery." Better that then screw with the rules as would normally be required. Multiweapon Mastery is a much more "elegant" solution to the problem.
Made one Phil Mcmahon's ROTRL game (fellow players stay out)
** spoiler omitted **...
So the DM has houseruled that the ediolon still retains intelligence, wisdom and charisma? Otherwise conversations between PC and eidolon (synth archtype) would be impossible.
Something that I have been contemplating is taking dips Synthesist to augment melee classes. What I am wondering is the HP total and the Con Modifier.
From what I understand the HD of the eidolon basically stacks with the Synthesist but this also includes his HD from other classes. But what of the Con modifier? I know this ability score replaces the Synthesist when summoned but would this bonus apply to all class levels? I am leaning toward yes because in a way it would be similar to what happens when you cast Bear's Endurance and they gain temporary HP.
If this is true I can see min/maxing taking a new direction: High mental stats with low physical stats that get pumped up when the eidolon is summoned.
For one, their is no rule that a druid cant carry a massive metal great-sword, just no metal armor, otherwise yes if you can get a druid to wear your breastplate you've just taken him out of combat. (how he doesn't notice it is metal in the 5 rounds it takes to put it on is beyond me)
You missed my point that that is stupid. "Here, hold this sword that is totally not metal" "Ok... omg, I can't use druid powers any more!" "hahaha, it totally was metal."
I am pretty sure that was the case at one point, which was my point.
It's completely absurd that a Synthesist summoner can't wear any armor at all. That's a half-assed balancing rule from the base summoner not being taken into account when making new types of summoners. It's like the Druid not being able to Wildshape if it is wearing any armor at all. Or wielding any weapons. Or affected by magical ability score modifiers. What is the Summoner going to do if the Eidolon gets sent back to its home plane for the entire day? It's like a normal summoner relying on the Eidolon, but with even more drawbacks.
Why don't we just make it so casters only get to cast each day if they win a game of rock-paper-scissors with the DM?
I am pretty sure that was the case at one point, which was my point.It's completely absurd that a Synthesist summoner can't wear any armor at all. That's a half-assed balancing rule from the base summoner not being taken into account when making new types of summoners. It's like the Druid not being able to Wildshape if it is wearing any armor at all. Or wielding any weapons. Or affected by magical ability score modifiers. What is the Summoner going to do if the Eidolon gets sent back to its home plane for the entire day? It's like a normal summoner relying on the Eidolon, but with even more drawbacks.
Why don't we just make it so casters only get to cast each day if they win a game of rock-paper-scissors with the DM?
Why is it absurd? Just because their fluff reason was stupid doesn't mean a good one can't be made.
Do you know what the summoner can do? He can not wear armor and have weak points just like everyone else.
Something that I have been contemplating is taking dips Synthesist to augment melee classes. What I am wondering is the HP total and the Con Modifier.
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From what I understand the HD of the eidolon basically stacks with the Synthesist but this also includes his HD from other classes. But what of the Con modifier? I know this ability score replaces the Synthesist when summoned but would this bonus apply to all class levels? I am leaning toward yes because in a way it would be similar to what happens when you cast Bear's Endurance and they gain temporary HP.
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If this is true I can see min/maxing taking a new direction: High mental stats with low physical stats that get pumped up when the eidolon is summoned.
Truthfully though, it isn't all that great. A typical synth eidolon isn't going to have a great con score, its as good as most characters who aren't min/maxed. So in a point buy system where you are min/maxing it at most saves you a point or two as con isn't a place where most skimp. Also given that the eidolon isn't getting full HD progression it will start to miss out on the +1 score/4 HD bump as well. Then we get into the evolutions, the ability score increase is +2 per stat every 6 levels at the rough cost of 2 levels worth of points. So every 6 levels the summoner can get a flat +2 to each of its physical attributes, at the cost of getting anything else basically.
The problem is 6 levels is ALOT for a melee character, you are losing on BAB and probably a good save (REF is bad for a biped, and you wanted arms right?). Most definitely losing on feats which means you don't have half the nifty options the other melee characters have from feats/free feat options via class abilities. All you are getting are the character level feats. You do have a decent physical stat (strength for a biped) as well as a good caster stat (charisma) and a passable dex (16 biped). I'm personally of the opinion that the synthesist doesn't get armor from worn gear when fused (as it says the synth gains "the armor and natural armor of the eidolon" AKA overwrites it) which means your AC is hurting quite a bit as a melee character. To make up for it you need to have mage armor for sure, and even that is only 4 points in comparison to better armor that melee usually have.
Feats and AC are probably going to be the worst part of the multiclass options. Having to spend your evo points to "keep up" on physical stats instead of the other abilities is also a drawback. There are usually better ways to spend the points, which are limited on the summoner class level. That and if you roll stats, there is the possibility that the stats of the eidolon are actually lower than that of the characters (something I've been dealing with in our home games).
I'm not saying it is bad, but just that using it that way isn't great. We've been playing a few weeks and the synthesist hasn't really "shined" as much as I'd have hoped or expected. My gut feeling is it is a bit of a MAD issue, it is a caster given options of melee, but no real back up for it. I'm hoping as we level up it will come into its own (3rd level now, soon to be 4th). About the only things that have worked out, I've focused on one natural attack so DR wasn't a deal breaker (it was just plain annoying) and I focused on AC so with mage armor I was fairly safe as crits were hard to confirm (but would have probably ended my participation had they confirmed). The one thing I do really enjoy is the redistribution of evo points and abilities every level. Being able to adjust as my spells grow or gear gets better is a very very nice thing.
Why is it absurd? Just because their fluff reason was stupid doesn't mean a good one can't be made.
I am pretty sure that was the case at one point, which was my point.It's completely absurd that a Synthesist summoner can't wear any armor at all. That's a half-assed balancing rule from the base summoner not being taken into account when making new types of summoners. It's like the Druid not being able to Wildshape if it is wearing any armor at all. Or wielding any weapons. Or affected by magical ability score modifiers. What is the Summoner going to do if the Eidolon gets sent back to its home plane for the entire day? It's like a normal summoner relying on the Eidolon, but with even more drawbacks.
Why don't we just make it so casters only get to cast each day if they win a game of rock-paper-scissors with the DM?
Their mechanical reason is both stupid and ineffective.
Do you know what the summoner can do? He can not wear armor and have weak points just like everyone else.
You mean the weak point where he is literally made ineffective if he uses his primary class ability too much?
"I Rage!!!... now I can't fight the rest of the day."
Why is it absurd? Just because their fluff reason was stupid doesn't mean a good one can't be made.
Their mechanical reason is both stupid and ineffective.
Casting + eidelons stats and abilities, yeah I'm not seeing the ineffectiveness.
Do you know what the summoner can do? He can not wear armor and have weak points just like everyone else.
You mean the weak point where he is literally made ineffective if he uses his primary class ability too much?
"I Rage!!!... now I can't fight the rest of the day."
I am not sure how not wearing armor means he can't fight after fusing, The wizard isn't wearing armor either and he is doing just fine.
For one, their is no rule that a druid cant carry a massive metal great-sword, just no metal armor, otherwise yes if you can get a druid to wear your breastplate you've just taken him out of combat. (how he doesn't notice it is metal in the 5 rounds it takes to put it on is beyond me)
You missed my point that that is stupid. "Here, hold this sword that is totally not metal" "Ok... omg, I can't use druid powers any more!" "hahaha, it totally was metal."I am pretty sure that was the case at one point, which was my point.
It's completely absurd that a Synthesist summoner can't wear any armor at all. That's a half-assed balancing rule from the base summoner not being taken into account when making new types of summoners. It's like the Druid not being able to Wildshape if it is wearing any armor at all. Or wielding any weapons. Or affected by magical ability score modifiers. What is the Summoner going to do if the Eidolon gets sent back to its home plane for the entire day? It's like a normal summoner relying on the Eidolon, but with even more drawbacks.
Why don't we just make it so casters only get to cast each day if they win a game of rock-paper-scissors with the DM?
A summoner can wear armor, light armor as per the class description. When fused it says the summoner gains the armor and natural armor of the eidolon. It doesn't say adds, it says gains. To me, it makes sense that the "armor score" from worn armor goes away (and truthfully the armor bonuses from the eidolon will overshadow the armor worn by the summoner within the first few levels). The fluff seems to point in this direction as well, seeing as it mentions the summoner being encased in the eidolon. When the eidolon goes *poof* this leaves the summoner with the worn gear as "back up" in case they don't have a mage armor or shield spell handy (or opted to not take either). Obviously an opinion, but as RAW as anyone elses opinion on the subject of synthesist archtype, and one formed trying to stay with the seeming intent of the archtype and not being idiotic about it.
I am not sure how not wearing armor means he can't fight after fusing, The wizard isn't wearing armor either and he is doing just fine.
Psst, look up the rules before speaking.
Wizards are allowed to wear armor (and many do). Yes, they have a low chance of spell failure, but they are allowed to wear any armor they wish. Also penalties to attacks if not proficient, but wizards rarely attack unless gishes who have proficiency.
It doesn't say adds, it says gains. To me, it makes sense that the "armor score" from worn armor goes away (and truthfully the armor bonuses from the eidolon will overshadow the armor worn by the summoner within the first few levels).
No, Eidolons add Natural armor unless you have some weird reason want armor bonus (you get to choose NA or Armor bonuses).
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Made one Phil Mcmahon's ROTRL game (fellow players stay out)
** spoiler omitted **...So the DM has houseruled that the ediolon still retains intelligence, wisdom and charisma? Otherwise conversations between PC and eidolon (synth archtype) would be impossible.
To me and my GM it's fluff so there was no need to 'houserule'. Neither of us thought about it like that in our conversations. As for rules, considering they are one creature in the same body (I saw this conversation as going on out of different sides of the same mouth) it's a reasonable interpretation, along with all the other reasonable interpretations we've seen on this thread.
So congrats, you've found something new to argue about.
My take is if Komi were without a body, she would use the standard mental stats (basically, she's dependent on having a physical brain) as a normal eidolon. But since that is unlikely to happen, it's not a problem. I agree w/ Starbuck that you should read the rules before posting.
If this is true I can see min/maxing taking a new direction: High mental stats with low physical stats that get pumped up when the eidolon is summoned.
That's what I found very easy to do in my example. However, there were limits, mostly the high cost of stat increases. For example, improved natural armor costs 1 pt verses the cost of increasing dex by two is two pts. While there are other benefits like higher reflex saves it's generally not worth it.
Casting + eidelons stats and abilities, yeah I'm not seeing the ineffectiveness.
Wrong. Summoner + Eidolon. Separate entities. Armor was banned for balancing reasons. And a number of other arse pull balancing decisions that didn't work. They either failed to take that ruling into account when making the Synthesists or they assumed players were mind readers and it would be OBVIOUS how it should work.
I am not sure how not wearing armor means he can't fight after fusing,
After fusing and after having the Eidolon removed. Didn't think that far ahead?
The wizard isn't wearing armor either and he is doing just fine.
The Wizard is a full caster.
A summoner can wear armor, light armor as per the class description. When fused it says the summoner gains the armor and natural armor of the eidolon. It doesn't say adds, it says gains. To me, it makes sense that the "armor score" from worn armor goes away (and truthfully the armor bonuses from the eidolon will overshadow the armor worn by the summoner within the first few levels). The fluff seems to point in this direction as well, seeing as it mentions the summoner being encased in the eidolon. When the eidolon goes *poof* this leaves the summoner with the worn gear as "back up" in case they don't have a mage armor or shield spell handy (or opted to not take either). Obviously an opinion, but as RAW as anyone elses opinion on the subject...For one, their is no rule that a druid cant carry a massive metal great-sword, just no metal armor, otherwise yes if you can get a druid to wear your breastplate you've just taken him out of combat. (how he doesn't notice it is metal in the 5 rounds it takes to put it on is beyond me)
You missed my point that that is stupid. "Here, hold this sword that is totally not metal" "Ok... omg, I can't use druid powers any more!" "hahaha, it totally was metal."I am pretty sure that was the case at one point, which was my point.
It's completely absurd that a Synthesist summoner can't wear any armor at all. That's a half-assed balancing rule from the base summoner not being taken into account when making new types of summoners. It's like the Druid not being able to Wildshape if it is wearing any armor at all. Or wielding any weapons. Or affected by magical ability score modifiers. What is the Summoner going to do if the Eidolon gets sent back to its home plane for the entire day? It's like a normal summoner relying on the Eidolon, but with even more drawbacks.
Why don't we just make it so casters only get to cast each day if they win a game of rock-paper-scissors with the DM?
I don't think you understand the argument we are having
Truthfully though, it isn't all that great. A typical synth eidolon isn't going to have a great con score, its as good as most characters who aren't min/maxed. So in a point buy system where you are min/maxing it at most saves you a point or two as con isn't a place where most skimp. Also given that the eidolon isn't getting full HD progression it will start to miss out on the +1 score/4 HD bump as well. Then we get into the evolutions, the ability score increase is +2 per stat every 6 levels at the rough cost of 2 levels worth of points. So every 6 levels the summoner can get a flat +2 to each of its physical attributes, at the cost of getting anything else basically.The problem is 6 levels is ALOT for a melee character, you are losing on BAB and probably a good save (REF is bad for a biped, and you wanted arms right?). Most definitely losing on feats which means you don't have half the nifty options the other melee characters have from feats/free feat options via class abilities. All you are getting are the character level feats. You do have a decent physical stat (strength for a biped) as well as a good caster stat (charisma) and a passable dex (16 biped). I'm personally of the opinion that the synthesist doesn't get armor from worn gear when fused (as it...
Well my main question was about the Eidolon's Con bonus effecting the HD from other classes while it was up. But I think that it might still be more effective than you think.
synthesist 5 (quadruped form) / Monk 15 (half-Elf) For Evo bonuses 1 extra evo point all other favored points go to HP
All stats assuming eidolon form is up
Starting with Ability Scores:
25 Point Buy(Bold Numbers mean Eidolon Scores)
STR 7 16
DEX 7 16
CON 7 16
INT 16
WIS 18 (+2 Half Elf)=[20]+(4 from level bonus)=[22]
CHA 16
Move Speed: Quad + monk 90
Evolutions:Free Evolutions bite, limbs(legs)(2), Pounce, Natural Armor, Magic Attacks, Limbs(arms), Ability Increase (con),Energy Attacks (acid)
Fists are considered Natural Weapons so unarmed attacks would deal the acid damage as well.
Unarmored AC: 10(base)+3(Dex)+6(Monk Wis)+3(Monk AC)+8(Natural Armor)+2 Shielded Meld = 33 AC with no gear
Touch AC: 24
Throw in the spells Shield + Mage Armor then AC jumps to 40
Total BAB: +16/+11/+6/+1
Flurry Of Blows: +15/+15/+15/+10/+5/+0
(after STR)
Total attack: +19/+14/+9/+4
Flurry Of Blows: +18/+18/+18/+13/+9/+3
Unarmed Damage: 2d6+3(1d6 Acid damage)
Average HP (eidolon Form): 160 (asumming I was correct about the Con bonus from the Eidolon effecting other classes the Sysnthist may have.
This is just the bare bones as it does not include Feats, class abilities, and magic items which still function while in eidolon form.
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Well my main question was about the Eidolon's Con bonus effecting the HD from other classes while it was up. But I think that it might still be more effective than you think.
synthesist 5 (quadruped form) / Monk 15 (half-Elf) For Evo bonuses 1 extra evo point all other favored points go to HP
All stats assuming eidolon form is upStarting with Ability Scores:
25 Point Buy(Bold Numbers mean Eidolon Scores)
STR 7 16
DEX 7 16
CON 7 16
INT 16
WIS 18 (+2 Half Elf)=[20]+(4 from level bonus)=[22]
CHA 16Move Speed: Quad + monk 90
Evolutions:Free Evolutions bite, limbs(legs)(2), Pounce, Natural Armor, Magic Attacks, Limbs(arms), Ability Increase (con),Energy Attacks (acid)
...
Your forgetting one thing. To quote the book.
The synthesist uses the Eidolon's base attack bonus,
So basically, while the Eidolon was summoned, you'd have the BAB or a 5th level Eidolon and your 15 levels of monk would not be added in. Without the Eidolon, you'd be a monk with the BaB of a 5th level Summoner/15th level monk.
Your forgetting one thing. To quote the book.
The synthesist uses the Eidolon's base attack bonus,So basically, while the Eidolon was summoned, you'd have the BAB or a 5th level Eidolon and your 15 levels of monk would not be added in. Without the Eidolon, you'd be a monk with the BaB of a 5th level Summoner/15th level monk.
There's a lot of disagreement about that, and I've actually seen it's more common to interpret it akin to how a Monk 1/Fighter 19's BAB is for the purpose of flurry.
Flurry says: "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level."
This is very close to the synthesist wording, and the devs have stated that the flurry text refers specifically to monk BAB, not to total character BAB. This seems to be good evidence that the synthesist ability is supposed to replace only the BAB from the synthesist class.
I don't think devs have said anything on the issue yet.
Your forgetting one thing. To quote the book.
The synthesist uses the Eidolon's base attack bonus,So basically, while the Eidolon was summoned, you'd have the BAB or a 5th level Eidolon and your 15 levels of monk would not be added in. Without the Eidolon, you'd be a monk with the BaB of a 5th level Summoner/15th level monk.There's a lot of disagreement about that, and I've actually seen it's more common to interpret it akin to how a Monk 1/Fighter 19's BAB is for the purpose of flurry.
Flurry says: "For the purpose of these attacks, the monk's base attack bonus is equal to his monk level."
This is very close to the synthesist wording, and the devs have stated that the flurry text refers specifically to monk BAB, not to total character BAB. This seems to be good evidence that the synthesist ability is supposed to replace only the BAB from the synthesist class.
I don't think devs have said anything on the issue yet.
That was always my understanding. If you read Flurry it is basically just bonus feats for two weapon fighting mixed into one ability plus it changes the BAB for flurry to be equal to the Monk's HD. So everything does stack or at least that seems to be the general agreement.
The Eidolon is only replacing the Summoner's BAB not his BAB from other classes.
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Well my main question was about the Eidolon's Con bonus effecting the HD from other classes while it was up. But I think that it might still be more effective than you think.
synthesist 5 (quadruped form) / Monk 15 (half-Elf) For Evo bonuses 1 extra evo point all other favored points go to HP
All stats assuming eidolon form is upStarting with Ability Scores:
25 Point Buy(Bold Numbers mean Eidolon Scores)
STR 7 16
DEX 7 16
CON 7 16
INT 16
WIS 18 (+2 Half Elf)=[20]+(4 from level bonus)=[22]
CHA 16Move Speed: Quad + monk 90
Evolutions:Free Evolutions bite, limbs(legs)(2), Pounce, Natural Armor, Magic Attacks, Limbs(arms), Ability Increase (con),Energy Attacks (acid)
...Your forgetting one thing. To quote the book.
The synthesist uses the Eidolon's base attack bonus,So basically, while the Eidolon was summoned, you'd have the BAB or a 5th level Eidolon and your 15 levels of monk would not be added in. Without the Eidolon, you'd be a monk with the BaB of a 5th level Summoner/15th level monk.
...... It seems that people want to believe the worst for no reason...your not just a synthesist... it works like the regular multiclass rules,take the class, make the change to Bab, Add the rest... If that was the case flurry would suck when you multiclass..and it doesnt.
I am not sure how not wearing armor means he can't fight after fusing, The wizard isn't wearing armor either and he is doing just fine.
Psst, look up the rules before speaking.
Wizards are allowed to wear armor (and many do). Yes, they have a low chance of spell failure, but they are allowed to wear any armor they wish. Also penalties to attacks if not proficient, but wizards rarely attack unless gishes who have proficiency.No, Eidolons add Natural armor unless you have some weird reason want armor bonus (you get to choose NA or Armor bonuses).
It doesn't say adds, it says gains. To me, it makes sense that the "armor score" from worn armor goes away (and truthfully the armor bonuses from the eidolon will overshadow the armor worn by the summoner within the first few levels).
Just because you think you are min/max'ing and choose to not take an armor bonus doesn't mean that the fused eidolon couldn't grant an armor bonus which would eclipse the armor granted by light armor the summoner is eligible to wear. Given the differences between the two it doesn't really matter which of the two you decide on, except if you are trying to min/max AC and want to be able to count the worn armor as well as the max eidolon bonus.
By my reading as I mentioned the intent seems to be followed. Just because you decided to make the armor bonus 0 doesn't negate the fact that the archtype effectively gives you a comparable and effective combatant AC via eidolon armor/natural armor as well as a shield bonus. Reading between the lines the synthesist abilities give you a remarkable defense package that some people want to wiggle armor gear into because of wording. I'm comfortable in my decision that says worn armor doesn't provide an AC bonus when fused regardless, it seems more in line with the intent than other interpretations.
Basically look at it this way, you put all the AC into natural armor leaving the armor bonus of the eidolon as a 0, so you gain a 0 armor bonus when you fuse.
To me and my GM it's fluff so there was no need to 'houserule'. Neither of us thought about it like that in our conversations. As for rules, considering they are one creature in the same body (I saw this conversation as going on out of different sides of the same mouth) it's a reasonable interpretation, along with all the other reasonable interpretations we've seen on this thread.
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So congrats, you've found something new to argue about.
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My take is if Komi were without a body, she would use the standard mental stats (basically, she's dependent on having a physical brain) as a normal eidolon. But since that is unlikely to happen, it's not a problem. I agree w/ Starbuck that you should read the rules before posting.
Assuming that was pointed at me, I did read the rules. The ones that say a synthesist gains the eidolons physical stats, are one creature with the summoners mental stats and where the eidolon has no skills or feats of its own and is unable to make seperate actions. Granted it is a much more restrictive reading than yours and I suppose I prefer yours but "thinking" is in effect an action as is speaking.
To me, a good example of a Synthesist Summoner is the character Anders, in Dragon Age II.
It's kind of in reverse, as the Eidelon is using Ander's body, and not the other way around, but it gives you the right idea. They are two people in one body. When Justice (the demon) inhabiting Anders comes out, Anders' skin get's blue glowing cracks in it, whisps of energy float off of him, and his eyes glow solid blue. His voice changes, and the Anders/Justice merge form speaks in a booming voice, and his personality changes to a mixture of the two.
When Justice goes away, Anders' personality returns to normal, he looks human, and he sometimes is frightened by what he's done as Justice. But both creatures exist in the same body, both have personalities, and both can communicate with each other mentally when Anders' is not in Justice mode.
On the one adventure where Anders goes to the spirit plane (the fade as they call it in the game), Justice takes over completely, and it's just his personality inside Anders body.
This interpretation flies in the face of how every class works when it comes to multiclass ever done in pathfinder. The only RAI and arguably RAW interpretation is that the eidolon BAB replaces your synthesist levels then gets added to whatever other class you multi into.However, don't worry about the dumping the physical stats and merging with the Eidolon to get it back. Most reasonable GM would rule that to qualify for feats the synthesist would still need it's own stats. So 13 str for power attack, 15 dex for TWF, etc.. So this means the above monk will have access to almost no combat feats. Hard to min/max without access to any of the good feats.
The synthesist actually works better as a min/maxed caster rather than a melee monster. 1 level of synthesist to get some nice nat armor, evolutions, and decent physical stats for a wizard or sorcerer.
Well I don't think that is totally true because while will be not allowed to take some feats because of ability requirments, there are plenty of other combat feats that only require a BAB of some number. Actually very little of all the combat feats require certain physical ability scores but a lot of the good one are. I just looked a the list of combat feats and while yes just under-half do require high physical attributes of some kind or another this is still not a problem. When monk gain their bonus feats they can select any bonus combat feat on their list even if they don't meet the requirements. Also a lot of the new archetypes are the same way for monks which can lead to powerful feats. Also do not forget there are plenty of non-combat feats that can aid in combat. Such as extra evolution although only once with this build, Extra Ki as many times as you want, a lot of the styles such as scorpion style, a good majority of Ki abilities, Leadership, and many many more.
Yes you are limited but only limited to a degree.
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Assuming that was pointed at me, I did read the rules. The ones that say a synthesist gains the eidolons physical stats, are one creature with the summoners mental stats and where the eidolon has no skills or feats of its own and is unable to make seperate actions. Granted it is a much more restrictive reading than yours and I suppose I prefer yours but "thinking" is in effect an action as is speaking.
They are one creature. They have the summoner's mental stats. So, for example, a Synthesist Eidolon can use, say, combat expertise that the summoner took because they share the same physical and mental stats. Such an Eidolon can also use 'skilled' on the 'summoner's' skills because, as the same creature, they do have skills.
As for thinking and speaking, I would say that is purely roleplaying fluff and does not need house rules or anything else unless you want to be a restrictive GM for the sake of being a restrictive GM.
To me, a good example of a Synthesist Summoner is the character Anders, in Dragon Age II.
It's kind of in reverse, as the Eidelon is using Ander's body, and not the other way around, but it gives you the right idea. They are two people in one body. When Justice (the demon) inhabiting Anders comes out, Anders' skin get's blue glowing cracks in it, whisps of energy float off of him, and his eyes glow solid blue. His voice changes, and the Anders/Justice merge form speaks in a booming voice, and his personality changes to a mixture of the two.
When Justice goes away, Anders' personality returns to normal, he looks human, and he sometimes is frightened by what he's done as Justice. But both creatures exist in the same body, both have personalities, and both can communicate with each other mentally when Anders' is not in Justice mode.
On the one adventure where Anders goes to the spirit plane (the fade as they call it in the game), Justice takes over completely, and it's just his personality inside Anders body.
Haven't seen it but it sounds about right or at least one reasonable interpretation. Other fiction that seems to resemble reasonable inspirations for this class or characters of this class are Neon Genesis Evangelion (Shinji's relation with his Eva only) Gasaraki, The Exorcist, Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
RL inspirations I suspect include strains of Shamanism where one person is a medium and is 'ridden' by a spirit/god who uses the body and skills of the person it possesses for it's own purposes. Probably the best known version of this one is the Wiccan 'Drawing Down'. The RAW, other than being arcane rather than divine class supports this interpretation.
Haven't seen it but it sounds about right or at least one reasonable interpretation. Other fiction that seems to resemble reasonable inspirations for this class or characters of this class are Neon Genesis Evangelion (Shinji's relation with his Eva only) Gasaraki, The Exorcist, Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.
Jekyll and Hyde is the mutation Alchemist. As is every other example here probably because so is the Justice/Anders example. The Eidolon does not POSSESS the Summoner. It encapsulates it, from what I understand. Possession is the realm of the Chymist. The Synthesist is more like Tildie Soames or that other chick from Marvel who can manifest powers that form body coverings of force. I forget her name, she was mentioned in one of these threads about the Synthesist.
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Haven't seen it but it sounds about right or at least one reasonable interpretation. Other fiction that seems to resemble reasonable inspirations for this class or characters of this class are Neon Genesis Evangelion (Shinji's relation with his Eva only) Gasaraki, The Exorcist, Doctor Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.Jekyll and Hyde is the mutation Alchemist. As is every other example here probably because so is the Justice/Anders example. The Eidolon does not POSSESS the Summoner. It encapsulates it, from what I understand. Possession is the realm of the Chymist. The Synthesist is more like Tildie Soames or that other chick from Marvel who can manifest powers that form body coverings of force. I forget her name, she was mentioned in one of these threads about the Synthesist.
Possession: Manifesting the abilities of an extra dimensional being within oneself. This may or may not include loss of control to that being. Sounds like one possible interpretation of synthesist to me.
Possession where the character retains control and the ability to change and sometimes gives in to gain it's abilities, rather like She-Hulk is a form of possession (ignore the lack of extra dimensional for the sake of this arguement). The Hulk's lack of control is a curse or disease and is also a form of possession.
I agree that Master Chymist is one way to go with Jekyll and Hyde. But there is no reason you can't make Summoner whose background is an arcanist who had an 'accident' and then roleplay somewhat different personalities, simulating possession.
Like many character concepts, there are more than one way to go about it. Jekyll and Hyde is one example.