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Am I right in assuming that a Cleric could not cast a domain spell (one not normally on the class list for Clerics) from a Wand or Scroll, even if the Cleric is able to prepare that spell because of a domain? For example, a Cleric with the Fire domain could not use a wand of Fireball or a scroll of Fireball and a cleric with Travel domain could not use a wand of longstrider.
Scrolls and wands require that the spell be on the class list; wand has slightly different language but says basically the same thing. While the spells on the domain lists are not explicitly class spells, I generally have understood them to act in that capacity. I would rule them that way as a GM, but wouldn't be surprised to see variance in organized play and would make purchases knowing that to be the case.
If a GM does permit them, remember that wands don't require arcane/divine orientation, but scrolls do. Those spells on domain lists that are not divine would normally be found as arcane. And, UMD is always an option, however unlikely or poor, for items that aren't viewed as usable inherently.
No, you are not right in assuming this. The spell is on your spell list otherwise you would not be able to cast these spells.James, do you see any distinction between "spell list," which you have used, and "class spell list," which is the language used by the items and/or activation method?
If the designers intend that, they should have come out and said so. The entire only in a domain slot is a stupid rule anyway.
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No, you are not right in assuming this. The spell is on your spell list otherwise you would not be able to cast these spells.James, do you see any distinction between "spell list," which you have used, and "class spell list," which is the language used by the items and/or activation method?I don't think that they are distinguished.
Moreover, I would say that for a given cleric his class spell list includes his domain spells. Just as much as a sorcerer's class spell list would include his bloodline spells when he gets them.
Yeah, I'd say that while the distinction can be made, it isn't intended and is unnecessary. I wouldn't do so myself, but wouldn't be horribly surprised if someone else did.
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James, do you see any distinction between "spell list," which you have used, and "class spell list," which is the language used by the items and/or activation method?
Domains add those spells to YOUR class spell list with restrictions (can only be prepared in domain slots.)
You can use items containing those spells (wands or scrolls if the scroll is divine) just as if those spells were on your cleric class spell list.
Consider how wizards and prohibited schools worked in 3e.
Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, in 3.5 a Wizard lost those spells on their class spell list and required an UMD check to use items with those spells.
What about preparing domain spells? Would you guys say that a Cleric with Fire domain could prepare Burning Hands in a 2nd level spell slot or Fireball in a 4th or 5th level spell slot?
Just as you can learn a Cure Light Wounds in a 2nd level slot, you can memorize a Fireball with Fire domain in a 9th level slot.
Clerics can use wands and staves of domain spells. While the wording of spell trigger can be read as giving clerics the ability to use wands of any domain spell, I don't think that was intended (and it is not how I would read it).
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
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This thread made me chuckle. First, as I was reading the long discussion about spell lists, I was planning on jumping in and asking if anyone bothered to read the cleric; in the section on domains, it says this:
Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in her domain spell slot.
Thus, domain spells are clearly not *added* to the cleric spell list, but rather are allowed to be cast *in spite of* not being on said list.
BUT!
Then I get down to the bottom, to Thraxus' post, where we see that it's not even a question of "spell lists". D'oh! Here I was, about to say "didn't you guys read?" and then find out that *I* didn't read. Hehehe. :D
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From the book.
A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st onup. Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in her domain spell slot.
So the spell is not on the cleric list, but the cleric can cast it.
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell.
The cleric with the domain can cast the spell. Wands.
Spell Completion:To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already.
The cleric is not of the right class. Scrolls.
Unless you find a divine verson of the scroll.
Total is
Wands Yes
Scrolls No
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Spell Completion:To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already.
The cleric is not of the right class. Scrolls.
Unless you find a divine verson of the scroll.
I'm not sure I'm following how this prohibits a Fire cleric (of high enough level) from using a Scroll of Fireball. Could you elaborate?
I'm not sure I'm following how this prohibits a Fire cleric (of high enough level) from using a Scroll of Fireball. Could you elaborate?Spell Completion:To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already.
The cleric is not of the right class. Scrolls.
Unless you find a divine verson of the scroll.
Scrolls, unlike wands, are split into arcane scrolls and divine scrolls. A cleric can't use an arcane scroll (except via Use Magic Device, e.g.).
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Scrolls, unlike wands, are split into arcane scrolls and divine scrolls. A cleric can't use an arcane scroll (except via Use Magic Device, e.g.).I'm not sure I'm following how this prohibits a Fire cleric (of high enough level) from using a Scroll of Fireball. Could you elaborate?Spell Completion:To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already.
The cleric is not of the right class. Scrolls.
Unless you find a divine verson of the scroll.
Yes, but a scroll of fireball can be divine (prepared by a cleric with fire domain and scribe scroll).
Ah, okay, thanks. Can you point out the relevant text for that fact? I'll retain it better that way.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/magicItems/scrolls.html
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
*The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
*The user must have the spell on her class list.
*The user must have the requisite ability score.
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Clerics can use wands and staves of domain spells. While the wording of spell trigger can be read as giving clerics the ability to use wands of any domain spell, I don't think that was intended (and it is not how I would read it).
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.So would you say that an evil cleric could not use a wand of an evil cleric spell?
A good cleric cannot cast an evil spell, and thus a member of the class (cleric) cannot cast this spell.
Likewise a wand of any spell on the class list as an individual member of the class might have only a 9 in the 'casting' stat and thus not be able to cast any spells!
Note that the bolded part of the above rule refers to a *class* being able to cast a spell, not every member of that class.
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The essential rationale for what determines whether a given character can use a spell completion or spell trigger item is whether they can cast that spell otherwise. Whatever ambiguity exists in the language about whether the spell is on a given list or not, domain spells and related spells derived from other class features that are not on the class list for all characters of that type can be cast by the character. If they can cast the spell, by RAI, they can use the item.
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Forgive my intrusion here but I have a semi relevant question. I saw that the fireballs being cast by a fire domain cleric as divine. Does this mean the fireballs they cast are divine, regardless of the level they prep it at, and therefore bypass any arcane spell failure rate, or are they still considered arcane and subject to arcane spell failures? If it is the latter then it would work as a loophole for Mythic Theurges, no?
Forgive my intrusion here but I have a semi relevant question. I saw that the fireballs being cast by a fire domain cleric as divine. Does this mean the fireballs they cast are divine, regardless of the level they prep it at, and therefore bypass any arcane spell failure rate, or are they still considered arcane and subject to arcane spell failures? If it is the latter then it would work as a loophole for Mythic Theurges, no?
Any spell a cleric can and does prepare as a cleric, in a cleric spell slot, is a cleric spell. Any spell a wizard/bard can and does prepare as a wizard/bard, in a wizard/bard spell slot, is an arcane spell.
So, a mystic theurge Wizard/Cleric who has the Fire Domain can prepare a fireball in his domain slot, or as a wizard in his wizard slots. If prepared in his domain slot, it is a divine spell, and has no arcane spell failure. If prepared in his wizard slots, it's an arcane spell and has arcane spell failure. If he somehow has a cleric spell that he can prepare as a wizard, when he does so, it is an Arcane spell and has arcane spell failure for armor. Any wizard/sorcerer spell he can prepare as a cleric and does so in a cleric slot is divine and has no arcane spell failure.
Wand- No problem for the cleric
Scroll- Problem for the cleric.
To have any chance of activating a scroll spell, the scroll user must meet the following requirements.
The spell must be of the correct type (arcane or divine). Arcane spellcasters (wizards, sorcerers, and bards) can only use scrolls containing arcane spells, and divine spellcasters (clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers) can only use scrolls containing divine spells. (The type of scroll a character creates is also determined by his class.)
The user must have the spell on her class list.
The user must have the requisite ability score.
While the cleric does have the spell on her class list, chances are that a spell not normally usable by clerics is arcane, rather than divine. If on the other hand you have say, a druid only spell that you can cast through a domain , you're fine.
So can any cleric use wands of fireball and divine scrolls of fireball, since members of their class can cast fireball (those with the fire domain ARE members of the class)?
So can any cleric use wands of fireball and divine scrolls of fireball, since members of their class can cast fireball (those with the fire domain ARE members of the class)?
No.
And stop that.
So can any cleric use wands of fireball and divine scrolls of fireball, since members of their class can cast fireball (those with the fire domain ARE members of the class)?No.
And stop that.
Stop what? I'm merely investigating all possible interpretations.
Thraxus posted the rules that seem to support it:
Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a special knowledge of spellcasting that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. The user must still determine what spell is stored in the item before she can activate it. Activating a spell trigger item is a standard action and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.
The main question, as I see it, can a cleric with the scribe scroll festival and the fire domain create and use a fireball scroll?
an arcane scroll of fireball can't be cast by a cleric as it's not the right type.
ahem
While the cleric does have the spell on her class list, chances are that a spell not normally usable by clerics is arcane, rather than divine. If on the other hand you have say, a druid only spell that you can cast through a domain , you're fine
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an arcane scroll of fireball can't be cast by a cleric as it's not the right type.
ahem
While the cleric does have the spell on her class list, chances are that a spell not normally usable by clerics is arcane, rather than divine. If on the other hand you have say, a druid only spell that you can cast through a domain , you're fine
And, according to the rules for creating scrolls, a Cleric with a domain spell that is normally Arcane, can, indeed, WRITE a Divine scroll of that spell. Which any Cleric with that domain or other access to that spell, could then use to cast it.
@Eraste:
If the Cleric memorizes the spell, which he does, he must, therefore, have an idea of how the spell works. If he understands that, he knows enough to activate a wand, and use the spell from an appropriate scroll.
Scribe Scroll (Item Creation)
You can create magic scrolls.
Prerequisite: Caster level 1st.
Benefit: You can create a scroll of any spell that you
know. Scribing a scroll takes 2 hours if its base price is 250
gp or less, otherwise scribing a scroll takes 1 day for each
1,000 gp in its base price. To scribe a scroll, you must use up
raw materials costing half of this base price. See the magic
item creation rules in Chapter 15 for more information.
See the bolded section.
I could have sworn that domain spells were added to that particular cleric's class spell list, but I can't find the text to support that.
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I see that there has never been any official input on this issue, so I have a question that pushes this a little further:
The Paladin archetype Sacred Servant grants the Paladin a cleric domain (at effective cleric level=paladin level-3); but only gains domain spell slots for levels of PALADIN spells she can cast.
Spells: At 4th level, when a sacred servant gains the ability to cast spells, she also chooses one domain associated with her deity. Her effective cleric level for this domain is equal to her paladin level –3. In addition, she also gains one domain spell slot for each level of paladin spells she can cast. Every day she must prepare the domain spell from her chosen domain in that spell slot.
Does this Paladin gain the ability to use scrolls/wands of the domain spells? (For the moment let's assume PFS scrolls--i.e. they are not separated into divine/arcane; or let's assume the paladin writes his own scrolls or gets a sorcerer/oracle to make them so he can activate them with CHA instead of INT/WIS).
Now, the BIG question: What about the spells for the levels the Paladin will never GET a domain slot (but they're in his domain's list)? For example: Healing Domain level 5->breath of life--does the Paladin get the ability to cast this from a scroll with a caster level check?
Edit: Cheapy's awesome list of rules posts > my search fu. But that still leaves my can of worms. I think I even Favorited one of Cheapy's posts where he listed some/many of his rules postings list.
I see that there has never been any official input on this issue...
And to your main question...urgh...can of worms...
It almost seems like a Cleric with the Fire domain could scribe a divine scroll of fireball but not cast it, since fireball still isnt on the class list and he is of the wrong class.
I am sure that is not the cade, but it would be (sadly) funny if true. :)
It almost seems like a Cleric with the Fire domain could scribe a divine scroll of fireball but not cast it, since fireball still isnt on the class list and he is of the wrong class
Huh? From all I have read, he is perfectly capable of casting Fireball from scrolls, as long as he is using divine scrolls.
Which, by the way, any scroll of Fireball he scribes will be. A Divine scroll of Fireball, unusable by both arcane casters and any divine caster who has no access to Fireball.
I think James has the right of it here.
However, I also think there's a bit of a philosophical difference between having the potential to cast the spells, as in a level 2 paladin, and never being able to cast the spells, as is the case of a domain spell higher than level 4. While I would be interested in seeing a dev comment on this issue, there are more important ones to deal with :)
So, for PFS at least, I'd be wary of using it, and if it's for a homegame, ask your GM.
Let me take a chop at this knot...
With scrolls, you have arcane or divine, period. This is an arcane scroll of Detect Magic, and this over here is a divine scroll of Detect Magic. They're powered differently; one is about mental equations that manipulate reality to your will, and the other is a prayer to the power of a deity. They only look like the same spell because the game mechanics are the same, because it's more efficient to have a single spell description in the rulebook, and frankly, it's always been in the game system's DNA to do it that way.
Just say that any divine spell that mimics or shares the description of an arcane spell is actually a totally different thing, in the same way that those two Detect Magic spells are. You have Fireball on your domain list? Think of it as Saranrae's Fireball, a divine spell that happens to use the same rules as an arcane Fireball, but isn't arcane. And the only characters who can use it from a scroll/wand/staff are divine casters -- and then, only if they can normally cast the spell.
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I've always considered the spells gained from domains or bloodlines as part of that specific character's class list for the purpose of activating magic items such as scrolls, wands and staffs. I see no reason not to, RAW or otherwise. They are on a list, that list belongs to a class... Seems pretty simple.
I do like SKR's thoughts on allowing a cleric to use any of her slots to prepare domain spells (reserving the domain slot exclusively for domain spells). The only problem with this would be all those domains with spells already on the cleric list who lose out. I ultimately created a feat which allows a cleric to expend a use of her channel energy ability to spontaneously cast a domain spell in place of a prepared cleric spell they same way a cleric could spontaneously cast a cure or inflict spell.
You have Fireball on your domain list? Think of it as Saranrae's Fireball, a divine spell that happens to use the same rules as an arcane Fireball, but isn't arcane. And the only characters who can use it from a scroll/wand/staff are divine casters -- and then, only if they can normally cast the spell.
This part is in error.
For the scroll it is correct, but wands and staves do not distinguish between arcane and divine.
-James
Sorry, I should have specified that this was a house rule suggestion. It does change how wands and staves work if you use it, and maybe not in a good way...
But it makes no sense to me that a wizard can use a spell trigger device like a wand to, effectively, finish the last bit of a divine spell. It's even weirder that the wizard can only do this if there happens to be an arcane equivalent of that spell in existence.
It also addresses the question that made me look this thread up -- if a cleric gets a particular arcane spell as a domain spell, and finds an arcane staff that has that spell and several others, can he use that spell from the staff, but only that one? Again, weird.
Sorry, I should have specified that this was a house rule suggestion. It does change how wands and staves work if you use it, and maybe not in a good way...But it makes no sense to me that a wizard can use a spell trigger device like a wand to, effectively, finish the last bit of a divine spell. It's even weirder that the wizard can only do this if there happens to be an arcane equivalent of that spell in existence.
It also addresses the question that made me look this thread up -- if a cleric gets a particular arcane spell as a domain spell, and finds an arcane staff that has that spell and several others, can he use that spell from the staff, but only that one? Again, weird.
Well your going with circular thinking: you are calling a staff or wand 'arcane' or 'divine' when it's not. Then this has you thinking that they should be required for it..
-James
If a Wand of Fireballs is neither arcane nor divine, then why can't a typical cleric use it? Or for that matter, a fighter? The easy answer is, 'the rules say so', but I was looking for an in-game reason.
Another answer would be that spell trigger items are much simpler than spell completion items. An arcane scroll of detect magic requires a lot of fiddly gestures and words that only an arcane character can do, while a wand of detect magic has all that built-in and just requires one word to trigger.
Well, one word, plus "special knowledge of spellcasting" (i.e. it's on the class spell list). So, if a wizard makes a wand of detect magic, a cleric has more special knowledge about how that wand works than a fighter does.
On one hand, I find that weird, and I want to house rule it away (see above). But on the other, I know that sometimes trying to break everything down logically results in bad game mechanics. ::shrug::