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Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard’s Charisma bonus (Fortitude half ), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word. This performance replaces suggestion.
A couple of questions:
1) Even though each word can only affect 1 creature, couldn't you have all of them target a single creature? That is, make a maximum 10 words strike against a single target? Or do all of them have to affect separate targets (please don't be the case!)?
2) Can this performance be maintained, or is it just a standard action, 1 round deal?
I really hope question 1) works as I hope it does, playing as a damage dealing bard sounds really appealing.
There is no language that says he can't target the same guy with all of them. That's averaging out to 45 damage at level 10, which isn't so bad. More effective than any Bard sonic spells at least.
Since it replaces Suggestion, I think it's non-maintainable.
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Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard’s Charisma bonus (Fortitude half ), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word. This performance replaces suggestion.
A couple of questions:
1) Even though each word can only affect 1 creature, couldn't you have all of them target a single creature? That is, make a maximum 10 words strike against a single target? Or do all of them have to affect separate targets (please don't be the case!)?
2) Can this performance be maintained, or is it just a standard action, 1 round deal?
I really hope question 1) works as I hope it does, playing as a damage dealing bard sounds really appealing.
Why does Dune come readily to mind?
There is no language that says he can't target the same guy with all of them. That's averaging out to 45 damage at level 10, which isn't so bad. More effective than any Bard sonic spells at least.
Since it replaces Suggestion, I think it's non-maintainable.
Yeah, it's a bit better than 45 damage though since you get your charisma modifier on top. So if you have a modifier of +6 (easy to get by level 10) you'll be looking at 105 damage before fort saves.
Yeah, it's a bit better than 45 damage though since you get your charisma modifier on top. So if you have a modifier of +6 (easy to get by level 10) you'll be looking at 105 damage before fort saves.There is no language that says he can't target the same guy with all of them. That's averaging out to 45 damage at level 10, which isn't so bad. More effective than any Bard sonic spells at least.
Since it replaces Suggestion, I think it's non-maintainable.
Oh damn! I forgot about that!
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This is a Rules Question that needs to be answered, in PFS I had a bard player doing around 90 damage a round with this ability. Since it is organized play I dont feel I can tell him it is terribly over powered. I agree with RAI, affecting multiply creature.
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Why does Dune come readily to mind?Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard’s Charisma bonus (Fortitude half ), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word. This performance replaces suggestion.
A couple of questions:
1) Even though each word can only affect 1 creature, couldn't you have all of them target a single creature? That is, make a maximum 10 words strike against a single target? Or do all of them have to affect separate targets (please don't be the case!)?
2) Can this performance be maintained, or is it just a standard action, 1 round deal?
I really hope question 1) works as I hope it does, playing as a damage dealing bard sounds really appealing.
The David Lynch movie?
"My name is a killing word."
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Apparently no reply is required to this question. What does that mean? Can we get some official clarification on whether multiple Weird Words can be used against against a single target or not please?
Apparently no reply is required to this question. What does that mean? Can we get some official clarification on whether multiple Weird Words can be used against against a single target or not please?
It means it works as asked. You can hit same guy and deal decent damage; there is no limit that each must be a seperate creature.
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It's not really that good of an ability, in hindsight.
It requires a touch attack, so there's one way to fail.
It requires a fort save, which is a more likely way to fail.
And they come in small spurts, so DR will eat this thing up.
Plus, you can't be Inspiring Courage.
It's not really that good of an ability, in hindsight.
It requires a touch attack, so there's one way to fail.
It requires a fort save, which is a more likely way to fail.
And they come in small spurts, so DR will eat this thing up.
Plus, you can't be Inspiring Courage.
DR doesn't apply to supernatural damage.
At level 6, you deal 1d8+Cha x6, yes you need Ranged Touch (easy), and a Fort save 1/2 (not as easy).Granted no DC listed, Presumely Suggestions DC is used: DC 10 + 1/2 bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier.
So DC 13 + Cha.
Likely you'll max Cha to 16 or 18.
So 6x1d8+3/4, DC 16/17.
Dealing average (Cha 16) 45, 22 on a save (DC 16).
Or
Dealing average (Cha 18) 68, 34 on a save (DC 17).
Yes, the damage will be lower or higher than listed because they get to save vs each of them.
Now Ability focus raises the DC to 18/19 but you don't get the next feat till 7th level.
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It's not really that good of an ability, in hindsight.
It requires a touch attack, so there's one way to fail.
It requires a fort save, which is a more likely way to fail.
And they come in small spurts, so DR will eat this thing up.
Plus, you can't be Inspiring Courage.
DR doesn't apply to supernatural damage.
Actually, I'm pretty sure it does. Energy damage ignores DR. This isn't energy damage, it's physical damage. At the very least, the section of Damage Reduction in the PRD doesn't mention supernatural abilities, other than that DR can be one.
Actually, I'm pretty sure it does. Energy damage ignores DR. This isn't energy damage, it's physical damage. At the very least, the section of Damage Reduction in the PRD doesn't mention supernatural abilities, other than that DR can be one.It's not really that good of an ability, in hindsight.
It requires a touch attack, so there's one way to fail.
It requires a fort save, which is a more likely way to fail.
And they come in small spurts, so DR will eat this thing up.
Plus, you can't be Inspiring Courage.
DR doesn't apply to supernatural damage.
DR only applies to weapon damage (improvised and Natural are weapons).
The numerical part of a creature's damage reduction (or DR) is the amount of damage the creature ignores from normal attacks. Usually, a certain type of weapon can overcome this reduction (see Overcoming DR). This information is separated from the damage reduction number by a slash. For example, DR 5/magic means that a creature takes 5 less points of damage from all weapons that are not magic. If a dash follows the slash, then the damage reduction is effective against any attack that does not ignore damage reduction.
This is why falling damage has no DR to go against: it isn't a weapon. Neither is Weird Words.
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Damage Reduction (Ex or Su) A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities.
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus (Fortitude half), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word. This performance replaces suggestion.
EDIT:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/additionalMonsters/universalMonsterRules .html
Blah.
My thinking is that : if they wanted to ignore DR, they would've used sonic damage. They didn't though, even though sonic damage really really fits.
I figure it basically acts as weapon damage (either piecing, slashing or bludgeoning) which can be divided in any way you want (so yes, multiple shots per enemy if you want). So DR should apply, otherwise they wouldn't have mentioned piecing, slashing, etc.
I am also pretty sure that it can't be maintained in subsequent rounds, because in the "bardic performance" section of the sound striker, it states "A sound striker gains the following type of bardic performance. Neither performance can be performed more quickly than a standard action." So basically, each round you want to use it, you have to spend a standard action and a round of bardic performance. It also says that "a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out..." suggesting that it qualifies as your performance for the round, and cannot be combined with other performances.
But still, even with DR this ability is badass! at 10th level you shoot 10 1d8+CHA (by level 10 my gnome had 23 CHA + 4 Enhancement = +8) damage. All range touch attacks with 30ft range! Lets see a two-weapon fighting specialist compare with that...
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Err..I'm not sure why people are still talking about DR.
> Weird sounds is an Su.(Supernatural Ability).
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action...
>Thus the damage it deals are damage from supernatural abilities. Yes they are B/P/S damage but still, they are damage from a supernatural ability which is called Weird Words.
>Creatures with DR take normal damage from supernatural abilities.
Damage Reduction (Ex or Su) A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. (Universal Monster Rules from B2)
>Therefore DR does not apply to Weird Words.
It seems very clear imo
This is why falling damage has no DR to go against: it isn't a weapon. Neither is Weird Words.
Are you saying here that DR doesn't apply to falling damage, or that there is no DR that is 10/falling damage DR?
Because I rather like monsters with DR being able to drop from tall places without falling prone, such as vampires, dragons and the tarrasque.
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It's not really that good of an ability, in hindsight.
It requires a touch attack, so there's one way to fail.
It requires a fort save, which is a more likely way to fail.
And they come in small spurts, so DR will eat this thing up.
Plus, you can't be Inspiring Courage.
Suggestion is damn good though, and doing only damage for subbing it out is pretty bad.
Still, this is a reliable way to do damage that bypasses DR. The Fort save DC should be really high since it's a bardic performance.
I'll be taking a look at this archetype more closely however.
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Err..I'm not sure why people are still talking about DR.
> Weird sounds is an Su.(Supernatural Ability).
Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action...
>Thus the damage it deals are damage from supernatural abilities. Yes they are B/P/S damage but still, they are damage from a supernatural ability which is called Weird Words.
>Creatures with DR take normal damage from supernatural abilities.
Damage Reduction (Ex or Su) A creature with this special quality ignores damage from most weapons and natural attacks. Wounds heal immediately, or the weapon bounces off harmlessly (in either case, the opponent knows the attack was ineffective). The creature takes normal damage from energy attacks (even nonmagical ones), spells, spell-like abilities, and supernatural abilities. (Universal Monster Rules from B2)
>Therefore DR does not apply to Weird Words.
It seems very clear imo
I definitely agree that Weird words is a supernatural ability, and that supernatural abilities bypass DR. But in this instance I feel that the rule-makers intended for DR to apply because otherwise mentioning S/P/B has no relevance since their only application is in the bypassing of DR. Also, if DR does not apply this ability is quite abusive. Almost no warrior can compare to this kind of damage unless they are incredibly strong and massive.
Also, suggestion as a bardic ability isn't that useful; the spell is much more effective. The fact that you have to fascinate creatures first (under non-combative conditions) before attempting to suggest makes the application of suggestion very rare.
cdogg makes a very good point. What use is damage type if it automatically bypasses DR?
cdogg makes a very good point. What use is damage type if it automatically bypasses DR?
Oozes, for one thing.
If you do anything but fight, you will come up with many situations where suggestion is nice.
Someone should make a rules question post about supernatural physical damage.
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Point 1) A bard dedicated to the use of Weird Words will likely only need precise shot (and, of course, point-blank shot) feat-wise, and probably won't have above a 14 starting dexterity, with an 18+ in Charisma. By level 7, if there are any enemies in range of you at the start of your turn, you can use weird words followed by a move action inspire courage. Bards attempting this tactic might want to take one or two Extra Bardic Music feats.
Point 2) Most damage-oriented classes are dealing roughly equal damage on average, and many of them can deal more damage if everything goes their way. The biggest problem is that Sound Striker stops scaling after level 10, which keeps the damage from being relevant at higher levels. At the mid levels it shines, which I think is fair if you want to specialize in it.
Also: NECROMANCY!
Can you use Point-Blank Shot and Precise Shot with Weird Words? I've been assuming that these feats would not modify Weird Words in any way, specifically because they only work on attacks with "ranged weapons".
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http://paizo.com/forums/dmtz1l20?Point-Blank-Shot-Precise-Shot-for-Ranged-T ouch
There does not seem to be a reason why those feats wouldn't work with any ranged attack, otherwise you'd have the weird case when you can hit normal AC more easily than touch AC (think a human commoner with no armor in melee with an ally...)
Actually, I never realized it, but RAW, those feats don't work with Word Striker. The attacks with Weird Words are bizarre in that they require attack rolls, but are not rays, and therefore aren't weapons. Interesting...
The necromancy thing was a joke. Don't take me too seriously :P
There are plenty of weapon-based characters that have the capacity to defeat equal CR targets in a single round of attacks. Just search the DPR Olympics in the forums and you'll see plenty of character builds that can equal or exceed the Sound Striker Bard. Remember, the numbers you posted are average... IF every ray hits, and IF the enemy makes no successful saves. There are much, MUCH worse things out there than Weird Words.
If the rest of your group is having trouble keeping up, they probably aren't optimized for damage. The Sound Striker bard is an easy way to make a relevant damage-dealing bard without a lot of work.
You make a good point Krinn and 'weird words' may seem abusive, but you are generalizing too much. First of all, if you limit 'weird words' to one attack per opponent the ability becomes completely useless because it pretty much never occurs that there are ten enemies within 30 ft.
That fact aside, 'weird words' can be very devastating but it is not ideal in many situations. When fighting a rogue or a monk (characters with high touch AC), the odds of missing the ranged touch attacks can be very high. This is aside from magic bonuses, such as deflection.
Secondly, even if the characters are hit, against warrior types, which pretty much always have excellent FORT saves, damage from each attack is likely to be divided in half. Furthermore, magical bonuses to saving throws (which are quite cheap) further augment FORT saves. Not to mention the fact that DR severely reduces the effectiveness of this ability.
Another drawback is that, although warriors use weapons and must take full attack actions to land several strikes, as well as the fact that they are targeting a higher AC, weapons can be made magical. This means that weapons can be made to bypass various DRs, can obtain enhancement bonuses and can be given other special magical properties whereas 'weird words' cannot be upgraded. At high levels the effectiveness of 'weird words' becomes severely diminished comparatively.
Aside from these details, there are many other character builds which are equally devastating. If a strong warrior type wins initiative and grapples the bard, the bard will most likely lose the combat. If the grappled bard attempts to use 'weird words' while grappled, he will provoke an attack of opportunity and be pinned. Another example is if a sorcerer wins initiative, he can cast various enchantment spells which can end the match right there. Also, like in your description, a rogue with sneak attack can pour on the damage as well. In fact, I made a rogue which had the archetype "Knife master", which basically allows the swap of d6 sneak attack damage with d8s when using daggers, who can do way more damage in a shorter period of time.
I admit, that between levels 6 and 10 'weird words' is quite powerful in terms of potential damage output, but it is not foolproof. A character who builds his bard specifically to be a master at using this ability will have a lot of drawbacks.
Since these are performances, inspire courage will end the moment you start using Weird Words.
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Kung Fu Hustle!
I think my main issue with Weird Words is that if you aim all the blasts on one target you have to, theoretically, make 10 to hit rolls, and (up to) ten Fort saves. Maybe you can streamline it, but that just seems bonkers.
To me, that's the strongest hint that this effect isn't RAI (which I think it should be. Doing pitiful damage to ten different targets doesn't seem very attractive).
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Sound Striker is a lousy archetype. It gains two new types of bardic performance, Wordstrike and Weird Words, but Weird Words makes Wordstrike completely obsolete as soon as you get it, even against inanimate objects. They should have just given it Weird Words at 3rd level and made it scales in a more elegant way, like 1 ranged touch attack per 2 levels, like a previous poster proposed. Or they could have given to the Sound Striker an ability that deals significant damage against objects. That would have allowed you to make a big stone explode only with the sound of your voice, just like Muad'Dib. :)
Ya, the one word/two levels is a pretty reasonable modification, I may include it myself. As a side note though, Weird Words is a bardic performance so it can't be used with inspire courage. By that I mean, previous Bardic performances must be ended before a new one begins. Therefore, using inspire courage as a move/free action before using weird words is a waste. It is nice to use Inspire Courage after weird words though, to boost your allies. Finally, although Weird Words is a supernatural ability, I always apply DR because it states that it does piercing/slashing/bludgeoning damage. So I basically apply it as nonmagical weapon damage of one of these types.
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Well, a couple of things right off the bat:
That Weird Words does not work with Arcane Strike, nor does it work with Point Blank Shot or part of Good Hope. Despite dealing slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning damage, Weird Words is not a ray effect, and thus does not qualify for any feats or spells that only apply to weapons, which negates 6 of the above damage per word. Now, the attack bonus from Good Hope still applies to accuracy, but the words, again, aren't weapons (because the aren't rays), which makes them really tricky to modify.
Without the above bonuses to damage, you're looking at 1d8+8, or a minimum of 45 damage IF they hit with every attack, and IF the enemy makes every save, with a maximum of 150 assuming all failed saves and hits.
I agree with point blank shot and good hope, but arcane strike would not apply - these are not weapons.
The DR issue is very hazy (I believe most bludg/pierce/slash damage is intended to be affected by DR... but that seems counter to the flavor of this ability).
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I agree with point blank shot and good hope, but arcane strike would not apply - these are not weapons.
The DR issue is very hazy (I believe most bludg/pierce/slash damage is intended to be affected by DR... but that seems counter to the flavor of this ability).
Point-Blank Shot (Combat)
You are especially accurate when making ranged attacks against close targets.
Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.
Good Hope (Spell)
This spell instills powerful hope in the subjects. Each affected creature gains a +2 morale bonus on saving throws, attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and weapon damage rolls.
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Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard’s Charisma bonus (Fortitude half ), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word.
Flavor text and an ability description are two very different beasts. Nothing in the ability description says anything about it being a weapon.
And yes, a ranged touch attack and a ray are two separate things. For example: A spell requiring a ranged touch attack requires a target. A ray can be fire blindly, and does not need a target creature in order for the effect to be created.
Also from the PFSRD:
Ray
Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don't have to see the creature you're trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature at which you're aiming.
If a ray spell has a duration, it's the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists.
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.
Think of rays and ranged attack rolls as squares and rectangles. All rays are ranged attack rolls, but not all ranged attack rolls are rays.