Sound Striker - Weird Words

[davidernst11]

However, it's not a spell. It's a supernatural attack. And are there any other non-weapons that can cause bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage?

[Davor]

davidernst11 wrote:

However, it's not a spell. It's a supernatural attack. And are there any other non-weapons that can cause bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage?

Chord of Shards is a bard spell that deals piercing damage.

The fact that the Weird Words is a supernatural ABILITY as opposed to a spell is irrelevant. The words are not rays. Something has to specifically be called a ray in order to be a ray.

*Edit: I also edited my last response to illustrate the difference between a ray and a ranged touch attack.

[davidernst11]

Actually, technically there is nothing in the description of "Rays" that suggests that they are a weapon. It says you can aim them as if they were a weapon, and you can score critical hits with them as if they were a weapon, but nothing here states that they actually are a weapon, so effects like Inspire Courage, Good Hope, Prayer, and Arcane Strike would do nothing to augment the damage.

Interesting.

I guess what I mean to say, is that if his argument at GenCon was that any ranged touch attack is like a ray, and rays don't even benefit from most of the stuff he was using, he was just downright cheating.

[Davor]

Well, here's the thing:

A ray isn't TECHNICALLY a weapon, but it is considered one for all intents and purposes, i.e. feats, weapon damage bonuses, etc. Remember, you can take weapon focus (ray), just like you can take weapon focus (touch attack) for melee touch attacks, since they are considered weapons.

But just because a spell or ability says it is a ranged touch attack doesn't make it a ray, /point at my earlier statement. It isn't a ray unless it says it is. Weird Words doesn't say it is, so it isn't one. Any other wording that may seem odd (damage types, etc.) is irrelevant, because ranged touch attacks aren't weapons, unless they're rays (or a specific item that says it is, like a bomb or gun).

[davidernst11]

Hmmm. Where in the rules does it specific that a ray IS a weapon, as for benefitting from weapon bonus damages? I know that you can score critical hits with rays, but you can with any ranged touch attack. I know that there is a description for Weapon Focus that says you can take Weapon Focus (ray) in the feat. What I don't see is anything that says specifically says a Ray is a weapon and can benefit from weapon damage bonuses.

[Davor]

From the PFSRD FAQ:

PFSRD wrote:

Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?

Yes. (See also this FAQ item for a similar question about rays and weapon feats.)
For example, a bard's inspire courage ability says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so <you> don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.

[davidernst11]

See, there you go though. This is from an FAQ, not the actual rulebooks. And if Inspire Courage, etc., can affect weapon-like spells like Spiritual Weapon, why would they not affect a weapon-like ability like weird words?

We have discussed all of these points with the player before, and he is able to defend it by using all of these other examples that work. By RAW, there is nothing about rays actually being weapons I the rulebooks. In FAQs, there is evidence that they are, but then again, so are other things that are not specifically mentioned in the books.

I just want a developer to officially give a word about this, so there is no question when I sit down with the player again.

[Davor]

1) There is no such thing as a "weapon-like ability". If the Weird Words ability created a Ray effect, it would count, but it doesn't, so it doesn't. The spells listed specifically create a magical "weapon", i.e., a scimitar, greataxe, etc. There is nothing that indicates that Weird Words is a weapon in any way.

2) The FAQ is from the developer. The FAQ is part of the Rules. If your player doesn't like it, he can play a different character, but answers in the FAQ are canon. A lack of appearance in a rulebook does not discount the validity of the ruling.

[Aioran]

Davor wrote:

2) The FAQ is from the developer. The FAQ is part of the Rules. If your player doesn't like it, he can play a different character, but answers in the FAQ are canon. A lack of appearance in a rulebook does not discount the validity of the ruling.

^This.

[Joachim]

Davor wrote:

1) There is no such thing as a "weapon-like ability". If the Weird Words ability created a Ray effect, it would count, but it doesn't, so it doesn't. The spells listed specifically create a magical "weapon", i.e., a scimitar, greataxe, etc. There is nothing that indicates that Weird Words is a weapon in any way.

2) The FAQ is from the developer. The FAQ is part of the Rules. If your player doesn't like it, he can play a different character, but answers in the FAQ are canon. A lack of appearance in a rulebook does not discount the validity of the ruling.

Maybe I am completely missing the boat, but the FAQ post does not seem to be as exclusive as you are indicating. It does not separate rays from other ranged attacks...the FAQ request simply asked about rays specifically. If you have to roll an attack, you can use good hope, heroism, etc.

[Amuny]

davidernst11 wrote:

You have 10 ranged touch attacks. Each one deals-

1d8 (4.5 damage on average)
+8 damage (from 26 Charisma)
+3 damage (arcane strike)
+1 damage (point blank shot)
+2 damage (good hope)

I don't see how Arcane Strike would apply, this is definitly not a weapon. If each words apply differently, at best you could apply Arcane Strike on ONE word.

I don't see anywhere where Weird Word is considered ray either. So no Point Blank Shot,

Again, I don't see how Weird Word is a weapon, so no Good Hope.

You just got from 22 to 16 max damage per word with a bit of good sense.

doing 125 damages on average ((4.5+8)x10), even with a fort save, still extremely powerful. Even more since you can't protect from it with resistances or anything.

If I was asked about it as a DM, I think I'd rule that Charisma modifier applies only once if you focus on one target, doing 10d8+8 instead of 10d8+80. But I still think that RAI doesn't allow focus on one single target.

[TGMaxMaxer]

For PFS, ruling that the Cha only applies once can't be done as it violates the RAW.

Altho, 10 1d8 +8 touch attacks at 10, with a fort save for half, isn't any more imbalanced than a 15d6 (no half)touch intensified shocking grasp from a magus. average 90, save for half, or average 52 no save, with only one touch needed vs 10. Yes, it's potential is great. So is the potential for a wide fireball doing 10d6 to everyone in an area. It's also, and i looked cause I plan on building one, pretty much the only real large damage ability a bard can get, and he pays 2 rounds of perform every time he does it (one for the sound strike itself, one for the round he just lost on starting inspire again), and gives up the song that adds to skill checks on his way to it.

When he gets it, it's 6x 1d8+6 or so, average 63 fort half, when a fireball is doing 6d6 to a 30 foot area. Just because he can focus it to one target, doesn't make it more damage really. And an optimized sorc is doing 6d6 +12, ave 33 (ref half),to the whole room, vs the bards focused damage. The DC at 6 is 17-18, which means that a fighter at 6 should have a 50% chance to save for half, while being hit around 75% of the time. A caster, will have a much better touch AC around 40% chance to hit, altho a 75% chance of full damage.

[Amuny]

TGMaxMaxer wrote:

...

Your magus doing 15d6+30 at best on lvl10 is doing it using a Sorcerer Dip, maximizing his traits, and using minimally a 3rd level spell slot (would be 4th but I guess your Magus have that trait reducing the cost of metamagic shocking grasp by 1)

Daily, your magus might be able to do this something like 3 or 4 times at best unless you really focus on doing only this in your day and use all your Arcane Pool in this idea. Let's say around 10 times at best.

So your totally optimized magus is doing average 82damages no save with his Shocking Grasp, more in the way with spell combat if he gets his full-attack action.

Your totally not optimized bard who just said "hey I'll take this archetype" is doing 125damages on average with save for half... 30 times per day.

This is SIMILAR assuming the fort save and the weapons damages of the Magus.

Now:
1) Magus need do use his full-round action in doing this
2) Magus will cry under DR/SR/Energy Resistances.
3) Magus will cry against any creature that is lightning immune.
4) Magus is born to DPR. AFAIK, that's not the bard's role.

[TGMaxMaxer]

One, he's also giving up one of his major functions, because he can't inspire courage(at the same time) or competence(at all) while doing this.

A sound striker archetype -IS- the optimized damage bard IMO.

You only rebutted the Magus portion, what about the sorc who can hit 10d6 +30 fireball maximized for 90(ref half) to mult targets at 10?

DR doesn't apply to spells, so magus shock is still ok there.
Supernatural abilities still have to check SR, unless that's been changed. Energy resistance applies, last time I read:

Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard's Charisma bonus (Fortitude half), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word. This performance replaces suggestion.

Sounds are pretty clear, the bludgeoning, piercing, slashing doesn't change the fact that they are sounds and thus RAW sonic resistance/immunity would apply. If you choose to houserule otherwise, then i'm sure you have a hard time mitigating this.

The bards role is whatever it is built for. True, traditionally these are face/skill/buffs... but just like any class, you can tweak one for damage, this is how a bard does it.

EDIT: Bards are traditionally "damage by proxy" the way I read them, they make everyone better, thereby doing more group damage.

[Amuny]

they could have replace sound by "solid note" in the descriptive, it would have been the same. The damages are slashing, bludgeonning or piercing, not sonic.

The only thing I see in the fact that it's "sounds" it's that even if the bard is not in a silence, if the target is... well, it fails, as it might be on deaf targets. (And yet again, I'm not completely sure since they do physical damages)

And I'm really open with the whole idea, just not with the maths of it. The Sound Striker would become the #1 single-target exploder in the mids level without any specials buffs/items/preparation needed, and against which even a full-prepared wizard that knows the bard couldn't really get ready and would just die on the first round.

I'm not even sure if a Summoner, vivisectionnist or barbarian with pounce could manages that much damages in the same levels. And a wizard/sorc clearly can't even with empowered/maximized spells.

I think this need a ruling, because the SoundStriker is an awesome idea, but as I said... maths blows the thing and it's clearly unbalanced.

[Davor]

A couple of points:

1) The damage dealing magus has a huge crit range for his beastly Shocking Grasp, and hits pretty hard when he does.

2) Weird Words grants a fortitude save against each Word, not the whole effect. As such, enemies could save against every word for 1/2 damage, or multiple ones. The odds of a Weird Word bard doing full damage are pretty abysmal, especially considering the rolls the bard has to make to do it. Even average damage is pretty low, because not only does the target get a save to resist the effect by 1/2, but the bard can miss on the attack roll, too.

@Amuny: All of the above character can do equal or more damage without worrying about saving throws. Pouncers can still trump this guy, and this guy actually can't do too much outside of Weird Words. He'll have sky-high charisma, but he'll probably ignore everything else to get there. Sure, he'll have access to skills, but in combat his great damage is mitigated by the fact that he has almost no mitigation to speak of, unless he spends rounds casting spells, at which point his words aren't doing him any good :P

[Amuny]

Ok so you would play 10 touch-attack, than 10fort saves, and than roll your single d8 for each fort save played one by one?

In itself it shows how non-sense it is.

Nothing in this game act like this, you save vs the damages or you don't, you dont save at 3/10th of the effect. C'mon. Would take 10min playing your single standard action every times. How convenient! You couldn't even just roll 10D20 and check how many save you got since you would therefore need to check each D8 to compare.

And yeah Magus have high crit range, but the simple fact that a Protection from Lightning would just counter him nearly completely is a major point. You can do nothing against SoundStrike

[TGMaxMaxer]

So basically, it's:

1. Too many die rolls
2. No way to be immune?

1. Add the line "Each target makes one saving throw, which reduces the damage for all words directed at them."
and

2. If the line "and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word."

Were changed to read, "This is a sonic based effect, although the bard can choose either bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage as well for each word."

This would solve all of your concerns?

At level 6, when gained, you get 6d8. at 7, wizard gets 8d6(scorching ray, 2 targets, touch). at level 10, you have 10d8. at 11, wiz gets 12d6 from scorching ray, and 11d6 to -11- targets in 30 feat(chain lightning, 1d6/level to 1target/level, ref half). At 20, you get 10d8, wiz gets 20d6 to 20 targets in 30 feet, ref half. It has a burst of effectiveness from 6-10, after that is trumped wiz, archer, sorc, any dps class. But it's broken, because a -nondpr- class gets 4 levels to shine? Really?

EDIT: Although the 2nd point is kinda redundant as the fact that the damage is caused, regardless of how the rest reads, by SOUNDS. thereby RAW being subject to silence, anything that boosts saves vs sounds, and such.

[Cheapy]

I did some work on this archetype to fix some of the issues. Didn't really take off though.

[TGMaxMaxer]

Cheapy, your link starts with the statement that weird words DR applies, when DR specifically states not applying to SU abilities, which this is. Can you link the ruling on that?

[Cheapy]

It really is common sense, but it was nice to get confirmation.

[Sean K Reynolds]

Here.

Edit: Ninja'd!

(The Bestiary explanation of DR doesn't account for magical sources that deal B, P, or S damage, and will be errata'd so this problem goes away.)

[Davor]

The wording on the Diamond Spray spell had me confused, too. Glad to see that's getting changed to make a bit more sense with current abilities. Thanks, Sean.

[Amuny]

Cheapy wrote:

I did some work on this archetype to fix some of the issues. Didn't really take off though.

This should become official.

Only thing I might change is kicking off the Fort Save (I mean hey... you have a ranged touch attack...!)

And you get something really, really similar to a scorching ray, but with physical damages.

And this way, I like it, and would be ready anytime to allow this in my games.

[Cheapy]

Amuny wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

I did some work on this archetype to fix some of the issues. Didn't really take off though.

This should become official.

Only thing I might change is kicking off the Fort Save (I mean hey... you have a ranged touch attack...!)

And you get something really, really similar to a scorching ray, but with physical damages.

And this way, I like it, and would be ready anytime to allow this in my games.

Thank you for the kind words!

I believe the reasoning for the Fortitude save, and the reason I kept it, was to make it decently comparable to scorching ray without making scorching ray obsolete as far as single target blasting goes. Remember, the bard has every single one of his spells left even if he uses all of his bardic performance rounds to use Weird Words. He's looking at about 22 rounds of Weird Words per day when he gets that, and that's probably a lot more than scorching rays then even a sorcerer can push out, which is about...7 or 8 depending on stats. Something's gotta give somewhere!

[Amuny]

One question still on my mind though, is DR applies.

What is the "limit" of this for by-passing DR?

I mean, if a creature have DR 5/Magic, I can hardly believe a Weird Word wouldn't word.

Or would it?

What about a DR 5/cold iron? DR 5/adamantium? What would stop it?

And yeah I agree with you on the scorching ray thing. But a Sorc can Empower/Maximize his scorching ray fast enough to completely outdamage this ;) and AFAIK I don't remember any spell allowing a Touch-Attack AND a Save. It's usually one or the other. May be just a Fort Save like most of damage-spells would be an option?

[Davor]

Ray of Sickening and Ray of Enfeeblement both require a touch attack and a saving throw.

Just for the record, I think each creature affected by Weird Words should be allowed a single saving throw to halve the effect of all targeted words. I don't think the alternative is overpowered, or weak, but making one save saves a lot of time.

[Morris Chan]

Weird Words (Su): At 6th level, a sound striker can start a performance as a standard action, lashing out with 1 potent sound per bard level (maximum 10), each sound affecting one target within 30 feet. These are ranged touch attacks. Each weird word deals 1d8 points of damage plus the bard’s Charisma bonus (Fortitude half ), and the bard chooses whether it deals bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage for each word. This performance replaces suggestion.

it says you start a performance as a standard action, and do damage so i don't see why it cant be an inspire courage that gives you buff and does damage.

[TGMaxMaxer]

The Weird Words is the performance that does damage, and can't be up for the same attack as an inspire that you created (without some hoops to jump thru, such as shadowbard or such) since you can only maintain one at a time.

Now, after level 7, you can have inspire up, drop it on your turn to use weird words(standard action) and then start it back up after the weird words so that your friends still have the bonuses(move action), but it won't apply for you during the attack rolls.

[The Human Diversion]

In my home game tonight, after seeing a 7th level bard nearly 2-shot a young adult dragon with Weird Words, I've decided to make the following ruling:

You can only fire 1 weird word per target. Being able to fire multiple words at a target when combined with bonuses to hit and damage can give a well-statted bard 10 or more points of damage per level per round more times than an equal level sorcerer could cast a direct damage spell. Based on other abilities that replace suggestion in archetypes, this is a perfectly reasonable limitation

[The Human Diversion]

Just an FYI, I also based my decision on the fact that both magic missile and scorching ray specifically have language that says you can fire your multiple shots at one target or at multiple targets but the Weird Words ability does not say anything of the sort.

[Azten]

Each word must target one target within 30ft, but there is no language that indicates you can't target someone one with more than one word.

[The Human Diversion]

Azten wrote:

Each word must target one target within 30ft, but there is no language that indicates you can't target someone one with more than one word.

Other spells that allow that do have specific wording that says they can do that, this ability does not have that specific wording.

From Magic Missile:

Quote:

If you shoot multiple missiles, you can have them strike a single creature or several creatures.

From Scorching Ray:

Quote:

The rays may be fired at the same or different targets

From Meteor Storm:

Quote:

You may aim more than one sphere at the same target

There is no such language in Weird Words

Again, this is a decision for my home game, you're free to rule as you wish, I'm just pointing out that there is precedent for specifically saying a spell can strike the same creature if it produces multiple projectiles/attacks/rays/etc

[Trogdar]

I would probably offer your player a chance to recreate his character then. At least give him the option to take a different archetype.

[Azten]

You do have a good point, THD, but Weird Words is not a spell.

[The Human Diversion]

Azten wrote:

You do have a good point, THD, but Weird Words is not a spell.

There still needs to be precedence on how it will function, and since it is possibly the most horribly worded ability Paizo has ever written it needs some clarification. I decided that the closest abilities were spells that could fire multiple "projectiles/rays/missiles" and noticed that they ALL have specific language that says more than 1 thing could be fired at the same target. If you know of any supernatural abilities that fire rays/missiles/whatever at a target please share - I'd love to rule this fairly.

In addition to the number of targets per "word" it says nothing about what type of damage it's doing yet includes allowing the bard to select bludgeoning/piercing/slashing which at least implies that it should be subject to DR.

And finally, as I said, this is my interpretation. Other people are free to run it as they will, but if you take the most liberal view (multiple words can hit one target, it's "sonic" damage, and can be used with point blank shot) I feel it's extremely overpowered.

[Azaelas Fayth]

It is subject to DR & can Target the same target. As the Target is withing 30 Feet of themselves.

[The Human Diversion]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

It is subject to DR & can Target the same target. As the Target is withing 30 Feet of themselves.

I'm going to disagree. Other things that fire multiple attacks/missiles/whatever specifically say when multiple things can hit the same target, this Supernatural Ability does not have that language in it.

Again, I've merely said how I'm ruling it and I'm sure we're all going to disagree until we have some sort of official ruling ... so please, please go to the original post and click the "FAQ" link.

[Azaelas Fayth]

The thing is Spells and Abilities are different.

[The Human Diversion]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

The thing is Spells and Abilities are different.

So show me the precedence for allowing more than 1 word to strike the same target, then. Because I haven't found any, the closest examples we have are from spells.

[Azaelas Fayth]

There are quite a few similar abilities that are horribly weak if you limit them the way you are proposing.

Weird Words included. I mean the way you have it you might be better off attacking with your weapon.

[Lab_Rat]

The biggest combo I have seen is a player who played a bardadin and used smite evil with Weird Words.

He was getting to add his smite damage to each word.

[The Human Diversion]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

There are quite a few similar abilities that are horribly weak if you limit them the way you are proposing.

Weird Words included. I mean the way you have it you might be better off attacking with your weapon.

Similar abilities such as?

Show me a bard who's better off attacking with their weapon. Weird Words is still doing a touch attack, and still gets to choose what kind of DR it overcomes.

[Azaelas Fayth]

I am just gonna stand over here with my Pistol using Bard. And they don't get a Save against my Shot. Especially not a Fort Save which is one of the Most Common Good Save in the Game.

[TGMaxMaxer]

The closest things you have to compare it to also don't require both an attack role and a save for half damage.

It's your game, and your houserule, but if you do require them to be different targets, you need to give more smaller enemies so that he can actually use it within the limits of "targets within 30 feet", or make it viable by removing either the attack roll or the save for half.

You might also houserule it to give only 1 ray/2 levels instead, and then it works more in line with the damage you expect from a non-barbarian I would guess, since the average at 7th level should be:...

22 Cha, 7 rays, DC 19 fort save for half; 7d8+42 requiring 7 attack rolls and 7 fort saves; maximum of 96 damage, minimum 49, with 7 failed saves; average damage 73 with 3 failed saves;

Bard BAB at 7 +5, dex +2-3, touch AC 12-13, ~75% chance to hit. Arcane strike does not apply, Inspire courage drops to use weird words, only bless/good hope/etc will help on this attack roll.

Each Miss (should have been 1 maybe 2), should lose an average of 10.5 damage.

Ave Fort save of CR 7-9(young) dragon +9/10 so 50% saves, so should have been have been around 45-46 damage, assuming 3 failed saves and one missed word.

Average damage of a level 7 raging barbarian +8 (26 Str), +7/2 BAB, +1-2 Weapon, -2 PA, +1-2 buffs. Gr Sword 2d6+21 +17/12 vs AC 22; 75% of ave 28, (min 23 max 33) 50% chance of another ~28.

Average damage of a level 7 Fighter archer build 7/2 BAB, +5 dex, +1-2 buffs, PB within 30ft, +1-2 Composite Str +3 bow. +16(dbl damage)+16/+11 vs AC 22; d8+8 average 12.5/hit 75% chance of 1st/2nd hits 50% of 3rd, 1st double damage ~25/12.5/12.5, min 36 max 64, assume ~35/round.

7th level Rogue, 22 dex twf finesse build. +1 agile/+1 menacing shortswords. BAB +5, Dex +6, flanking(+4), +1-2 buffs +17/17/12 vs AC 22; 5d6+7 each main hand, 5d6+1 offhand. 75% chance for ~24 (min 13, max 38), 75% for 18(min 6, max 31), 50% for 24(min 13, max 38) probably around 40damage/round. (and ppl say rogues do no damage :P)

any of the 4 of these chars should 2 round a CR 7-9 young dragon (between 66hp, white and 95hp, bronze).

Just for reference.

[The Human Diversion]

Just to be clear here, I'm not limiting it out of spite, I'm doing it out of game balance:

I just don't feel a 3/4 bab class that's clearly made for a support/spellcasting/buffing role should be able to deal between 40 and 90 points of damage per round at 7th level over a dozen times per day with an ability that replaces Suggestion.

Look at all the other bard archetypes that replace suggestion and their abilities are nowhere near as powerful.

Look at the progression of the two sound striker abilities - Wordstrike is a mediocre ability that would get about as much use as a 0 level spell, yet 3 levels later you get Weird Words that is one of the best direct-damage abilities in the game if you allow the most liberal interpretation.

So please, more people click the FAQ button on the first post!

[Azaelas Fayth]

Point blank Shot doesn't work as Weird Words isn't a weapon.

This is an Archetype that allows a Bard to become an Offensive Character, requires a fairly easy save given how common Good Fort Saves are, and is horribly Short Ranged.

Wordstrike is potent as it is usable against Held Weapons & Similar and no save.

[The Human Diversion]

Azaelas Fayth wrote:

Point blank Shot doesn't work as Weird Words isn't a weapon.

This is an Archetype that allows a Bard to become an Offensive Character, requires a fairly easy save given how common Good Fort Saves are, and is horribly Short Ranged.

Wordstrike is potent as it is usable against Held Weapons & Similar and no save.

As TGMaxMaxer posted above, this allows bard to become a better offensive character than a barbarian, archer, or rogue while replacing ONLY their suggestion ability, I.E. it leaves the vast majority of the class's utility/buffing intact.

I think I'm arguing RAI and you're arguing RAW here. All I'm asking for is a FAQ for two things:

1) can multiple weird words strike the same creature in a given round?

and

2) while Supernatural abilities are normally not affected by DR, can we get a ruling on if this one is or not? Seems clear it should be, otherwise why include the P/B/S language?

[Azaelas Fayth]

It doesn't allow them to become better. It simply changes them from a Damage-By-Proxy to a First Hand Damage Dealer.

If you actually go back to the First Post they have left a "No Response Necessary" Notice. Besides this is the Rules Forum. R.A.W. > R.A.I. But even R.A.I. it seems clear.

[TGMaxMaxer]

Yes... this particular SU ability is subject to DR. Just like the ice storm spell is still subject to DR for the bludgeoning portion of it's damage if that applies. SKR posted that clarification somewhere... this thread or another on the same question. I didn't go back thru this thread.

And... if you look back at my post, I just lined out how a Sound Striker keeps up with other classes as a damage dealer. 75% of the time a Barb/archer/rogue will out DPS him with this ability... This is -the- way a bard becomes a DPR build... other than a dervish dancing arcane duelist or archaelogist.

This is the blaster bard build... and to do it he has to drop his group buffs.

Which in turn, drops the DPR of the rest of the group, and in general, isn't worth it.

These are also not rays, so none of the normal ray attack feats/abilities will stack on them... altho I have seen that tried in play. No: Arcane strike, point blank shot, (although precise will negate the melee penalty as I read it), inspire courage (has to drop to use weird words).

If you let those stack on, then... yeah. It would seem a lil overpowered.