Why not get a +1 to an ability score from a mod?

[Mok]

In a recent thread people talked about particularly disliking the idea of getting permanent +1 bonuses to ability scores from a module.

I just wanted to ask why this is disliked?

That is precisely the kind of thing I'd want to see from modules.

Right now all of the modules blend together. With the, necessarily needed, abstraction of gold and items, and the mostly lack of any real boons, all of the modules are just bleeding together as a long string of encounters.

What I'd love to see would be specific permanent rewards that are derived from the stories, rather than everything in the story being liquidated into abstract gold and prestige.

I'm not saying that I'd want the old cert system where only one person got a specific item from a mod, but rather just having some potent reward that everyone can get, such as a +1 to an ability score as if it was a manual.

That would make the modules far more memorable, as specific rewards would be tied to specific actions.

Now, someone might say that it can throw off the wealth by level progress. True, if the rewards are completely random and done without any real thought, but these would be tied to the mod. If everyone in the game got a +1 to Charisma, it wouldn't mess with anything. There are lots of ways that little perks could be applied that wouldn't mess with the power of the player, but would still be something that would be a lot of fun to gain.

Right now I flip through my certs and it just lists random treasure, most of which isn't that compelling to buy, and that's it. The stories fade away and I just have a long list items I'm likely not going to buy.

So I guess I'm just wondering why there is a desire to not have more memorable boons and perks from modules?

[hogarth]

Mok wrote:

In a recent thread people talked about particularly disliking the idea of getting permanent +1 bonuses to ability scores from a module.

I just wanted to ask why this is disliked?

That is precisely the kind of thing I'd want to see from modules.

My two cents: I don't want to see a particular module have a reward that's disproportionately larger than the reward you can get from other modules for a couple reasons.

1) It might make that module a "must play" compared to other modules.

2) It might produce resentment among those who played it and didn't get the big reward.

Of course, I'm a mature, laid-back dude, so neither of those would apply to me. Just other immature players.

;-)

[Fozzy Hammer]

Mok wrote:

In a recent thread people talked about particularly disliking the idea of getting permanent +1 bonuses to ability scores from a module.

I just wanted to ask why this is disliked?

That is precisely the kind of thing I'd want to see from modules.

Right now all of the modules blend together. With the, necessarily needed, abstraction of gold and items, and the mostly lack of any real boons, all of the modules are just bleeding together as a long string of encounters.

What I'd love to see would be specific permanent rewards that are derived from the stories, rather than everything in the story being liquidated into abstract gold and prestige.

I'm not saying that I'd want the old cert system where only one person got a specific item from a mod, but rather just having some potent reward that everyone can get, such as a +1 to an ability score as if it was a manual.

That would make the modules far more memorable, as specific rewards would be tied to specific actions.

Now, someone might say that it can throw off the wealth by level progress. True, if the rewards are completely random and done without any real thought, but these would be tied to the mod. If everyone in the game got a +1 to Charisma, it wouldn't mess with anything. There are lots of ways that little perks could be applied that wouldn't mess with the power of the player, but would still be something that would be a lot of fun to gain.

Right now I flip through my certs and it just lists random treasure, most of which isn't that compelling to buy, and that's it. The stories fade away and I just have a long list items I'm likely not going to buy.

So I guess I'm just wondering why there is a desire to not have more memorable boons and perks from modules?

A good question.

I think that there is a fine line (and a difficult line to successfully navigate) between being a memorable reward and being an overpowered reward.

A lot of people have a negative impression from LG where people would specifically target the most attractive story rewards. Or where they would plot an entire characters career in order to harvest the best rewards. I'm not saying that people would do this in PFS, but it does color the organizers view of how attractive awards should and should not be.

If you make an award too good, then everyone will feel it is necessary to play a specific module, and the uniqueness of having played the module will go away, and it will just become a grind on the way to loot.

Conversely, what you are complaining about (or remarking about. I'm not making a value judgement) is the fact that most awards are pretty vanilla. There's nothing that sets the award out in your mind.

It might be nice if the awards did offer some permanent benefit. Perhaps a title, or a path to a title. And maybe the titles would be 1/character and so that other modules that offered different paths to other titles would present the player with a choice. "Do I want to be 'Protector of Havenwood', or would I prefer to be 'ElfFriend'? Or perhaps Sir in front of my name?"

There's a lot of work that would go into such a career path options list, and I'm not certain that the current OP leadership has the time or the inclination to do such a task.

But it's an interesting idea.

[Jason S]

A better question is WHY give a free +1 stat in a scenario? Does it make the scenario more interesting? Does it make your character more interesting? Do you really just want a 25-point buy?

It's easy to see why it's not desirable:
- It makes the scenario "compulsory" for hardcore guys like yourself.
- The reward isn't going to be a surprise (like in a home game), all hardcore guys like yourself will know exactly what the reward is, and how to get it.
- It's inclusion makes cheating (or replay with a different character) more desirable, because that's the only scenario with this unique reward.
- God help any noob that screws up and ruins the bonus for a table of hardcore gamers

No thanks, I'll pass on more munchkinism.

Mok wrote:

So I guess I'm just wondering why there is a desire to not have more memorable boons and perks from modules?

I agree, some unique perks (or one shot items you could keep outside of the prestige or gold rules) in some scenarios would be very cool, but just not in the form of + stat bonuses.

[hogarth]

I do sympathize with Mok's criticism that some of the modules aren't very memorable because they're just a string of encounters without a memorable plot (or a plot that only the GM is privy to). But I'm not sure how adding better goodies into an unmemorable module is supposed to improve it!

[Mattastrophic]

Also, no amount of reward can make up for a forgettable story. If the modules are forgettable, then that's a problem with the modules themselves, not the rewards at the end.

You are right, though, Mok, in that the modules have been essentially strings of fights with forgettable "go here, get/rescue X" or even "you're here getting/rescuing Y, and here's the flashback when you signed on to the mission!"

If you want to see more memorable storylines, tell Paizo to increase the page count of their modules (twenty pages including statblocks is just too few!), and keep the sheer number of combats down to three or less per scenario.

-Matt

[San-Chez]

hogarth wrote:

I do sympathize with Mok's criticism that some of the modules aren't very memorable because they're just a string of encounters without a memorable plot (or a plot that only the GM is privy to). But I'm not sure how adding better goodies into an unmemorable module is supposed to improve it!

In a shout out to the Organizers I see this changing for the better. They are finding ways to get more of the back round of the mod to the players and the favors/items are getting to be more unique to the mods.

Will it ever be as cheezy as the some of the 2 page LG regional certs I have seen? I sure hope not!!!

[caubocalypse]

If the scenarios currently aren't memorable to you, I don't see how a stat bonus increase is going to make it more memorable. Sounds like a convenient excuse to twink your character.

[Mok]

I guess what I mean is that it shouldn't be a special module that gives this or that perk, EVERY module should have a boon.

Basically, it should be expected that every mod gives you some fancy little mechanical benefit that it tied to a story.

I can see people not wanting a "gotta catch them all" meta-game going on with people asking which mod to get which perk, however the sheer absence of talking about older adventures right now feels like far more of a deficiency to the tone of the game than one where people actually talk about their experiences.

I know, I'm actually wishing people would "tell me about their character!" While it sounds like a horror, right now the tone is so anemic that I'd prefer if people enthusiastically retold how they got this or that thingamabob. That enthusiasm is far more interesting than the current atmosphere of people not saying anything.

Between traits, variant favored class bonuses, spell-like abilities, slews of items (mundane, alchemical and magical) there are all sorts of options where minor little perks could be granted to players without causing the game to be thrown out of whack. Add in circumstance bonuses and you've got a lot of ways of rewarding play that tied to story without messing with balance.

If someone can say, "ever since I drank from that magic fairy well I've been able to summon dancing lights once a day" is a way to trigger a whole memory of the story, and give an opportunity for people to weave cause and effect into later adventures.

Someone might say, "where did you find that well?" and in LG you were reprimanded if you uttered anything about which mod it was because it was "cheating" to find anything out about a mod. I found that awkward and unsatisfying. We're all adventurers, but we can't actually talk about our adventures. The meta-game is inescapable, and so rather than pretend that we're all siloed into our own experience horizon, just open it up. "Oh, that is the time when we went to the River Kingdoms to help the fairy queen stop the death of her forest." The fidelity to simulating each character in isolation actually goes against the social nature of having organized play.

Anyway, as with most things in life, it all comes down to taste. I'd like a bit more flavor, but it's flavor that's engaging within the context of organized play, which for me means it has to have some kind of mechanical benefit. That's the leverage to make the world seem more alive and coherent as it places the character within the system. Org play does need abstraction, but it seems like right now the abstraction is so high that individual flavor of events is missing.

[Mok]

Joseph Caubo wrote:

If the scenarios currently aren't memorable to you, I don't see how a stat bonus increase is going to make it more memorable. Sounds like a convenient excuse to twink your character.

It's more memorable because I'll remember why I got that bonus.

An event is more memorable if it stands out from routine. Every day we shed away all the routine experiences that we have had during the day, and retain only those experiences that stood out (either positive or negative) and so getting a perk that is tied directly to events within the game is going to make that a more likely thing to remember.

Bad events also stand out. Get TPK'd and you'll remember that. But positive experiences are fare less memorable right now. When I got that +1 longsword isn't particularly memorable right now as it's tied to an abstracted wealth system that is largely decoupled from that actual actions you play out in any particular module.

I can "twink my character" right now, but because it's all abstract, with at best my motivation being to make sure I perform a faction mission to get another prestige point, which then goes into a pool that is separate from the action that produced the point, whatever min-maxing I might do is basically separated from what I actually did.

However, if my character helped out to seal a tomb that was actually a portal to a world of demons, and an avatar of Torag appears and grants everyone a point of Wisdom... well, I'll remember that.

Right now the system is set up so that you can be completely a souless min-maxer. You can just focus on your prestige point accrual and then hang whatever baubles on your Christmas Tree you wish. Every module and faction mission can be flushed out without any effort.

If however some of the rewards were tied directly into the stories then even the soul less min-maxers will have to make more of an effort to flush the context away, or perhaps it will humanize them a bit, giving a bit of inspirational fluff that will make them look at it more as an evolving story and not just a game.

[Andrew Christian]

I don't think that a module should be memorable because of the boon granted at the end.

I think a crappy assortment (not saying any I've played through have been this way) of encounters loosely attached to a crappy plot is not going to improve because you get a cool shiny at the end.

I also think that if the GM preps correctly, and correctly understand what information can and cannot be revealed (for spoilers) in game play, that they could reveal some of the back ground during game play should the players ask the right questions of the right people.

In other Organized Play campaigns (not PFS) I've had the experience where the GM just runs you haphazardly through the module, isn't really prepped fully, and you end up with what seems a random assortment of ho-hum encounters.

I've also experienced both in other campaigns and in PFS, a fully prepped GM providing a dynamic experience in which we enjoyed non-spoiler background information revealed as we stumbled through an interesting assortment of encounters.

Yes, some modules make this more difficult to do as a GM, especially if its a multi-part story arc, you don't want to give away information that shouldn't be given away until part 2 or 3. Or if the module just sucks, you don't want to make stuff up either.

But largely, I don't think a cool new shiny boon is going to enhance the module itself any.

[ShadowcatX]

IMO if you're going to add something to a game there should be a compelling reason to do so, not a compelling reason not to. There simply is no compelling reason to do so and plenty of reasons not to.

[Mok]

Mattastrophic wrote:

If you want to see more memorable storylines, tell Paizo to increase the page count of their modules (twenty pages including statblocks is just too few!), and keep the sheer number of combats down to three or less per scenario.

-Matt

I was complaining about that early on. With so many encounters to grind through per mod (either five or six normally) there is little time to develop roleplaying moments because there is only so much time available.

After looking at the mods in more detail, I can see now why they can't really cut back to just three encounters per session. The problem is that the system has made the characters more potent, and that hasn't quite kept up with the CR system as it was originally intended with its pacing.

The end result is that if you were to have three encounter missions, and you hoped for the module to offer some reasonable challenge, then each encounter would likely need to be APL+3. However, as you go up in CR level, while it becomes more challenging, there is also a ceiling at which the characters can handle the situation.

Basically, a three encounter per session module would require every encounter to be beating the characters within an inch of their life. For the hard core gamists they'll eagerly lap that up, but that's just one segment of the player base. So five or six encounters is needed to spread the risk out enough to fit the bulk of players.

[hogarth]

Mok wrote:

Joseph Caubo wrote:

If the scenarios currently aren't memorable to you, I don't see how a stat bonus increase is going to make it more memorable. Sounds like a convenient excuse to twink your character.

It's more memorable because I'll remember why I got that bonus.

I guess so. But I don't think going from "uh...I think we fought some mites" to "I drank from a magic well and...uh...I think we fought some mites" is much of an improvement. YMMV, of course.

[Mok]

ShadowcatX wrote:

IMO if you're going to add something to a game there should be a compelling reason to do so, not a compelling reason not to. There simply is no compelling reason to do so and plenty of reasons not to.

I guess though, what I'm wondering with this thread is what are the compelling reasons not to do so?

I'm trying to argue that there are compelling reasons to do so:

Positive boons derived directly from the events of the story increase the chance for memorable experiences. Abstracted rewards decouple the causality from the experience and make it more likely to be forgettable.

Now, Andrew raises the issue that good GMs will put the prep work into a game to make it a memorable experience by masterfully weaving events to make them dramatic and compelling. I'd agree with that. When I prep a module I put in at least 10 hours to soak up the module. Drawing out the maps, learning how the encounters will run, reading over and over the background (which normally is quite remote unfortunately from the events of the actually mod) and see how that can be incorperated. I also read through the NPC interactions and figure out what funny voice I'll use for each NPC and practice saying their juicy lines with a lot of drama.

The problem is that org play can't rely on people doing all of that work. The modules need to be set up so that they can be run with a minimum of prep time, and assume that a wide spectrum of GMs at various skill levels will put in their time to run tables.

Having boons that are integrated into the stories CAN help alleviate some of the issues that come from poor prep/GM skills. It can't solve it but it does ameliorate some of the issues that come up from the realities of org style play, as it can give the opportunity for the player to remember more of the story, or even use what was an anemic experience originally and help it build into a larger narrative of their own devising as their character evolves through play.

Maybe the original experience with the mod was this souless exercise in grinding as the GM, with no prep time, just read the module aloud as they tried to figure out what happened next. A real low point in org play experience.

However, if you get a neat boon, say that drinking from the fairy well I mentioned above. In later games you could draw on that flavor and mechanics to actually add to further stories. The original source might be weak, but being able to invoke dancing lights and save the party from a disastrous station actually helps magnify the importance of drinking from the well and makes it more meaningful in the overall career of the character.

[Chris Mortika]

Living Arcanis had something similar to what Mok is asking for: many of the adventues had unique boons, or magical items, or excessive money treasures, or access to prestige classes (the kind of access that Pathfinder Society handwaves, like having a Hellknight witness you defeating a devil of greater HD...).

It caused a problem.

Eventually, word gets around that Scenarion 3-08 gives PC a +1 bonus to their Charisma, and suddenly everybody with a Charisma-based character wants to send him or her through that particular adventure. People start choosing what scenarios to play / run based on the rewards and loot, and that's a new level of meta-gaming that PFS doesn't have to deal with as yet.

[Mattastrophic]

Mok wrote:

Basically, a three encounter per session module would require every encounter to be beating the characters within an inch of their life. For the hard core gamists they'll eagerly lap that up, but that's just one segment of the player base. So five or six encounters is needed to spread the risk out enough to fit the bulk of players.

Is there really an EL quota that has to be filled by each scenario?

And if there were a quota, and having fewer encounters would be devastating... then just shrink the quota.

-Matt

[Thod]

Mok

I know - your intentions are good. But there is no way to 'force' a memorable scenario. Every single scenario allows to be memorable for the right group and the right circumstances. This hardly correlates with the boons you get.

I was reminded of that fact yesterday again. I had a season zero scenario, it had no real challenging fighting encounters, I got three short term cancelations for the game and just fitted a fourth player shortly before game start. With all of that I was less forgiving as usual.

What made the whole scenario memorable?

No boon, not even a great encounter - it was the incompetence of the players, how they reacted to it in Character and the willingness to roll with it.

The adventure was in Absalom. We had an abrasive Venture Captain telling the group what to do - and a group that didn't listen or take notes but too proud to go back and ask.

So not knowing exactly what to do they went from one district to the next, trying to piece together what to do and to second guess. I nearly had them boarding a random ship to Cheliax (at which stage the whole scenario would have been over without any XP, any PA) before they admitted 'defeat' and went back to the Grand Lodge (I estimated 6-7 hours IC time, 1 hour real time) to ask to hear the instruction again.

It went smoothly from here onwards and I loved to play the outrage of the Venture Captain when the group came back and not even hadn't done the job but hadn't even started.

Can you replicate it with a boon, a bonus, a prize or great game-mastering? Surely not.

So after this prelude we did the actual scenario as it was meant to be run. The delay actually made the following string of encounters a lot more believable as they really where written in a way that made more sense for a group that was a little bit incompetent / late and had to catch up / set stuff right.

It was this prelude that made the whole night long (and memorable).

I would agree that given the right circumstances a boon can be very, very memorable. But I would argue the real memorable moments often are when you avert failure. When you tell yourself - here we have been stupid and could have done it in a much more intelligent way.

But you surely don't want to reward avoidance of failure as that is too difficult to predict. Stupidity of players just isn't predictable.

just my 2p worth

Thod

Edit: I didn't have a single power gamer at my table yesterday. I guess he might have exploded instead of enjoying it ...

[Sgmendez]

I actually really agree with the OP. Everyone here seems to be stuck on the +1 Ability Score which was just one option the OP was saying. What he is really talking about is giving the story actual rewards not just treasure.

So the Magical Fairy Well of Seleua which grants your character the ability to cast Dancing Lights 1/day or the Goblin Shrine that gives you a +2 bonus to damage rolls against Dogs and Horses are a bit more memorable than a +1 Longsword. But the story is only memorable if the rewards are tied into the story well enough to make it a compelling and interesting story.

And anyone here who says that a memorable rewards doesn't make a memorable story needs to stop lying. If you were to go through a story and receiving Excalibur after saving the king it would be much more memorable than getting a plain +1 Longsword.

[Mattastrophic]

Sgmendez wrote:

I actually really agree with the OP. Everyone here seems to be stuck on the +1 Ability Score which was just one option the OP was saying. What he is really talking about is giving the story actual rewards not just treasure.

I think what's important here is to distinguish between flavor-ful story awards which are not a statistical benefit and flavor-ful story awards which are a statistical benefit.

-Matt

[Fozzy Hammer]

Thod wrote:

Mok

I know - your intentions are good. But there is no way to 'force' a memorable scenario. Every single scenario allows to be memorable for the right group and the right circumstances. This hardly correlates with the boons you get.

I was reminded of that fact yesterday again. I had a season zero scenario, it had no real challenging fighting encounters, I got three short term cancelations for the game and just fitted a fourth player shortly before game start. With all of that I was less forgiving as usual.

What made the whole scenario memorable?

No boon, not even a great encounter - it was the incompetence of the players, how they reacted to it in Character and the willingness to roll with it.

The adventure was in Absalom. We had an abrasive Venture Captain telling the group what to do - and a group that didn't listen or take notes but too proud to go back and ask.

So not knowing exactly what to do they went from one district to the next, trying to piece together what to do and to second guess. I nearly had them boarding a random ship to Cheliax (at which stage the whole scenario would have been over without any XP, any PA) before they admitted 'defeat' and went back to the Grand Lodge (I estimated 6-7 hours IC time, 1 hour real time) to ask to hear the instruction again.

It went smoothly from here onwards and I loved to play the outrage of the Venture Captain when the group came back and not even hadn't done the job but hadn't even started.

Can you replicate it with a boon, a bonus, a prize or great game-mastering? Surely not.

So after this prelude we did the actual scenario as it was meant to be run. The delay actually made the following string of encounters a lot more believable as they really where written in a way that made more sense for a group that was a little bit incompetent / late and had to catch up / set stuff right.

It was this prelude that made the whole night long (and memorable).

I would agree that given the right circumstances a boon can be very, very memorable....

"Henceforth, this lodge shall refer to you, and all members of your party as 'The Fool's Errand'. If you seek advice at this lodge, and identify yourself as a member of this group, you may add a +1 circumstance modifier to all diplomacy checks used to gather information (once the laughter subsides)."

[Thod]

Sgmendez wrote:

I actually really agree with the OP. Everyone here seems to be stuck on the +1 Ability Score which was just one option the OP was saying. What he is really talking about is giving the story actual rewards not just treasure.

So the Magical Fairy Well of Seleua which grants your character the ability to cast Dancing Lights 1/day or the Goblin Shrine that gives you a +2 bonus to damage rolls against Dogs and Horses are a bit more memorable than a +1 Longsword. But the story is only memorable if the rewards are tied into the story well enough to make it a compelling and interesting story.

And anyone here who says that a memorable rewards doesn't make a memorable story needs to stop lying. If you were to go through a story and receiving Excalibur after saving the king it would be much more memorable than getting a plain +1 Longsword.

Will Excalibur still be memorable if you just 'stumble over it'?

Will Excalibur be memorable if you didn't get it?

Will people refrain from complaining here if they didn't get Excalibur? A GM might feel they were not worthy of the sword - surely such a sword needs an epic act to be done to earn it.

Will Excalibur open up an even wider gap between power gamers and casual gamers as you need to earn it in a challenging way and surely it is only challenging if a power gamer is challenged as well. Which means most of these will have an Excalibur but many casual gamers might miss it.

Anyhow I'm Merlin - I don't need Excalibur. I want something to increase my magic.

Thod

[hogarth]

Sgmendez wrote:

And anyone here who says that a memorable rewards doesn't make a memorable story needs to stop lying. If you were to go through a story and receiving Excalibur after saving the king it would be much more memorable than getting a plain +1 Longsword.

I don't know what to tell you. A dull module wouldn't have auto-magically become undull if I had received an awesome gift at the end.

But then again, different people play for different reasons. Me, I like an interesting story. Other people like a difficult challenge. There are probably some people out there who love sweet loot. YMMV.

[Fozzy Hammer]

Fozzy Hammer wrote:

Thod wrote:

Mok

I know - your intentions are good. But there is no way to 'force' a memorable scenario. Every single scenario allows to be memorable for the right group and the right circumstances. This hardly correlates with the boons you get.

I was reminded of that fact yesterday again. I had a season zero scenario, it had no real challenging fighting encounters, I got three short term cancelations for the game and just fitted a fourth player shortly before game start. With all of that I was less forgiving as usual.

What made the whole scenario memorable?

No boon, not even a great encounter - it was the incompetence of the players, how they reacted to it in Character and the willingness to roll with it.

The adventure was in Absalom. We had an abrasive Venture Captain telling the group what to do - and a group that didn't listen or take notes but too proud to go back and ask.

So not knowing exactly what to do they went from one district to the next, trying to piece together what to do and to second guess. I nearly had them boarding a random ship to Cheliax (at which stage the whole scenario would have been over without any XP, any PA) before they admitted 'defeat' and went back to the Grand Lodge (I estimated 6-7 hours IC time, 1 hour real time) to ask to hear the instruction again.

It went smoothly from here onwards and I loved to play the outrage of the Venture Captain when the group came back and not even hadn't done the job but hadn't even started.

Can you replicate it with a boon, a bonus, a prize or great game-mastering? Surely not.

So after this prelude we did the actual scenario as it was meant to be run. The delay actually made the following string of encounters a lot more believable as they really where written in a way that made more sense for a group that was a little bit incompetent / late and had to catch up / set stuff right.

It was this prelude that made the whole night long (and memorable).

I would agree that given the right circumstances a boon can be very,

...

Actually, this triggered a memory.

Shadowrun missions did/does this in a fairly good way. Depending on your actions during the mission, you can either gain or lose 'faction' rating with any of several groups. It's almost impossible to please everyone, so the players end up making conscious choices about who they are going to make happy, and who they are going to make less happy.

Pathfinder could fairly easily implement something like this within their existing framework. Instead of faction, you could have "PA" with groups like Aspix, Absalom, Dwarves of X, Elves of Y, etc. (Maybe have 5-8 groups that matter. Or more or less.) At the end of a scenario, if you have accomplished certain goals, or triggered certain events, you will either gain or lose prestige amongst those organizations. That prestige could then be used/spent for one time boons.

"Oh, hey. We're looking on information on XYZ. I have prestige with them. I can approach one of their agents and see if I can parly it into an answer or two."

or

"Oh, crap. We have to deal with ABC? I know I normally am the group speaker, but I have negative prestige with them because I helped out their enemies a few months back. I'll just stay quiet, and hopefully if we complete this mission, I'll at least get back to neutral with them."

[Thod]

Fozzy Hammer wrote:

"Henceforth, this lodge shall refer to you, and all members of your party as 'The Fool's Errand'. If you seek advice at this lodge, and identify yourself as a member of this group, you may add a +1 circumstance modifier to all diplomacy checks used to gather information (once the laughter subsides)."
.

Thanks - I love it and will try to weave it into my introduction next week. I can't grant them an official modifier - but a name for the group is fair play.

And the whole story becomes even more memorable as it gets talked about.

Thod

[Todd Morgan]

Fozzy Hammer wrote:

stuff

While a big fan of Shadowrun, I would make the argument that re-tooling the current faction system to what you described is not 'fairly easy' at all and would require a re-write of the previous three seasons to account for this, unless you wanted to just make those scenarios unusable under the 'new' faction system.

Adding 5 new factions doesn't mess with this AS much because it's still the same framework going forward (IE, get a faction mission, complete it, get PA).

[ShadowcatX]

Mok wrote:

I guess though, what I'm wondering with this thread is what are the compelling reasons not to do so?

If a story is bad a good reward won't make it a good story. Memorable, perhaps, but not good. I've had plenty of "generic God A comes down and grants you Artifact A, or bonus to stat B, or whatever." I don't care for any of them. I'll take a good story any day.

It will make it a "must play" scenario for certain character classes, and a total "meh" scenario for other character classes.

A stat point is a huge boon to those who can make use of it, but costs just as much (in treasure that the character doesn't get) for those who can't make use of it. I'd much rather get a reward my character can use than a chance to boost something my character will never use.

Quote:

Having boons that are integrated into the stories CAN help alleviate some of the issues that come from poor prep/GM skills. It can't solve it but it does ameliorate some of the issues that come up from the realities of org style play, as it can give the opportunity for the player to remember more of the story, or even use what was an anemic experience originally and help it build into a larger narrative of their own devising as their character evolves through play.

Maybe the original experience with...

I disagree entirely. Honestly, this just sounds like an attempt to get a more powerful character while disguising it as something (anything) else. You want your character to evolve through play? Evolve them. Take notes and change how your character acts based on what's happened.

My character in the last scenario he was in got a mission he didn't like. He did it only because circumstances thrust him into it, but grumbled the whole time and it kind of soured his attitude towards his faction. That's evolution. +1 to charisma is not.

[Fozzy Hammer]

Todd Morgan wrote:

Fozzy Hammer wrote:

stuff

While a big fan of Shadowrun, I would make the argument that re-tooling the current faction system to what you described is not 'fairly easy' at all and would require a re-write of the previous three seasons to account for this, unless you wanted to just make those scenarios unusable under the 'new' faction system.

Adding 5 new factions doesn't mess with this AS much because it's still the same framework going forward (IE, get a faction mission, complete it, get PA).

Actually, the previous seasons could stand on their own, and simply be faction neutral. I'm not talking about adding factions that players would join and be a part of. I'm talking more about NPC groups that the players might deal with in some way.

I probably didn't make myself clear enough. Or you are seeing what I'm talking about, but just viewing it entirely differently.

I just talking about a way in which a player character's actions could have some bearing on his future dealings in the world around him, that would equate to very minor boons.

perhaps "Prestige" would be the wrong word. Perhaps simply "Reputation" would be a better word.

I know it won't ever happen, but it's nice to speculate about how things could be made differently.

[caubocalypse]

There are already plenty of scenarios that give you boons. Whether they are one time initiative checks or forever increase diplomacy by 2 when dealing with a certain group, you have story awards already written in. You don't have them in every scenario, but you also don't do amazing things in every scenario. I don't think adding things like ability score boosts will help in the memorability of a scenario.

If you find a lack of umnph in your games, tell your fellow players to role play instead of roll play. Getting a stat increase doesn't add to the story, it just adds to how you want to twink your character more.

[Mok]

I have to agree that people are getting a little too hung up on +1 ability scores. That's my fault as I put that in the title, but I figure it's a good way of illustrating the idea I'm trying to convey.

What mechanical benefits isn't so much the issue I'm trying to illustrate, but rather that there are some kind of mechanical benefits tied to every module.

ShadowcatX wrote:

If a story is bad a good reward won't make it a good story. Memorable, perhaps, but not good. I've had plenty of "generic God A comes down and grants you Artifact A, or bonus to stat B, or whatever." I don't care for any of them. I'll take a good story any day.

But what about a third option, that of a good story AND a mechanical boon. That would make for an excellent module.

ShadowcatX wrote:

It will make it a "must play" scenario for certain character classes, and a total "meh" scenario for other character classes.

Perhaps, but you still have to play modules. It can be expected that every module one plays is perfectly aligned with their concept. You play and sometimes the boon synergizes, sometimes it doesn't. I wouldn't advocate for boons that are so incredible that they unglue the game, these would all be small perks that are just nice to have.

ShadowcatX wrote:

Quote:

Having boons that are integrated into the stories CAN help alleviate some of the issues that come from poor prep/GM skills. It can't solve it but it does ameliorate some of the issues that come up from the realities of org style play, as it can give the opportunity for the player to remember more of the story, or even use what was an anemic experience originally and help it build into a larger narrative of their own devising as their character evolves through play.

Maybe the original experience with...

I disagree entirely. Honestly, this just sounds like an attempt to get a more powerful character while disguising it as something (anything) else. You want your character to evolve through play? Evolve them. Take notes and change how your character acts based on what's happened.

My character in the last scenario he was in got a mission he didn't like. He did it only because circumstances thrust him into it, but grumbled the whole time and it kind of soured his attitude towards his faction. That's evolution. +1 to charisma is not.

That doesn't really seem accurate to me. The system's fundamental assumption is to evolve through mechanical benefits. It's precisely the mechanical evolution that is the scaffolding to the emergent stories that happen in the game.

Until I see a story based system (like Everway, Amber, or perhaps Dogs in the Vinyard) make real traction within the gaming community, I'm kind of going with the assumption that a big draw to D&D and it's ilk are games that reward players with mechanical benefits.

That's not all of course. Any consideration of a roleplaying game ought to consider that there are multiple play styles at work, with people coming to the table with different levels of taste in what they find fun. Trying to strike a balance between these different modalities is something that I'd applaud, because the more all of them can be integrated means everyone at the table is getting some of what they desire.

The thing I'm kind of finding fascinating is that several people are alluding that I'm somehow trying to suggest making the game MORE gamist, when what I'm trying to argue, rather poorly evidently, is that PFS is already far too gamist in its orientation. It's far more easy to play PFS as a purely gamist type of tactical boardgame than any other style of play. You an sit there almost mute as you get railroaded through one encounter after another, beat up baddies and make sure that you search for an item or talk to someone for your prestige points.

Now, the game system can't cut down on encounters without making the game either much easier, or much harder, and so that leaves not a lot of room for in game roleplaying. Meanwhile the campaign system abstracts out your rewards so they become gold or prestige values that don't directly link up with character actions. That creates a very anemic play experience, that can only really be compensated by boisterous players who try and squeeze out what little simulation and drama that is possible within the short time frame of play, or actively take notes and elaborate on your character outside of a session.

A robust system would be one that tries to address simulation and drama more directly, rather than just hoping players "get it" and do all of the extra work on their own. Thus, what I'm suggesting is that if the mods introduced more boons with mechanical benefits, seeming a gamist powergaming paradise, is actually a method of connecting the dramatic and worldly elements of PFS and channeling them through highly gamist structure that PFS can't escape. It provides the opportunity for not only the full blown thespian dramatic roleplay to have some meaty extra details to play off of, but it can also give a chance for "comic-book guy" type player to connect his collection of stats with the shared world were all a part of.

Right now, PFS is a fertile bed for the hard core gamist player to soulessly parade through the game, it's a rocky soil that requires tenacious versions of other plants to flower and grow in. What I'm suggesting is to add some fertilizer to whats there so that more interesting things can emerge.

It's making these kinds of mechanical tweaks that can make a difference, because it provides incentives for other forms of play to emerge. If you introduce these tweaks, they cascade through the system naturally because everyone confronts them and can use them.

What is far more daunting is to try and direct GMs all across the land to berate players to roleplay more. I know I don't go and run games so that I can have confrontations with people about their style of play. That wouldn't be fun at all. I lead by example through prep and roleplaying well, but I also have to acknowledge that not eveyone wants the same thing from a roleplaying game. You have people that are there to kick back, socialize and roll dice, you also have people that are eagerly wanting to be put into a position so that they can "do what my character would do" and you also have people that want to enact out something that is like a scene from a movie or book. It would be exhausting to try and corral all of those different approaches into some finely tuned synergy.

[Mark Moreland]

When an author comes up with a cool boon in their turnover, I always try to see that it makes it into the final adventure. Sometimes, however, the story that justifies such a boon changes in development. I'm also a fan of giving story-based bonuses, either statistical or flavor only, when appropriate. That said, I'd rather include no extra bonus on a Chronicle than one that feels shoehorned in or that doesn't really need to be there.

Keep an eye on the Monday blogs for the next few months for a sneak preview at some of the other minor, flavor-based boons we'll be introducing in the next season.

Oh, and a +1 to an ability score is not something we'll just throw out willy-nilly, but I wouldn't write any boon off as impossible. After all, there's a huge design space in Pathfinder, and we hope to use as much of it as possible as Pathfinder Society continues to grow.

[Martin Kauffman 530]

Adding plus one to an ability score as an adventure reward would only further encourage the min/maxing power gamers who will soon come to expect such "boons" on a regular basis, thus seriously imbalancing the game. If something like this is done, it should either be only a short term boon, should only apply in specific limited circumstances, or should come along with a drawback ( for eample plus one in one stat, minus one in another randomly rolled stat).

[Lord Twitchiopolis]

I seem to recall at least one chronicle sheet of mine with a boon reward along the lines of "+1 diplomacy to gather information within Absolom" and another with a unique item reward (needed to be purchased first) that granted +2 to Knowledge(The Planes) involving devils.

These are exactlly the kind of things that make those reward blocks interesting. If I had a copper for every Cloak of Resistance +1 on those sheets..... However, if EVERY chronicle was special, then none of them would be. The difference between the mundane and the arcane is exposure.

As far as memorability, that's all dependant on your crew. I play PFS weekly with the same crew of friends, and we've had some fun and interesting developements along the way independant of the treasure block. I can see how the restraints of a con could make this more difficult, but ultimately it is the game master and the players that make or break the game.

[Thod]

Mok

Thanks for your long answer. I better understand where you come from and applaud you for trying. Unfortunately to me it seems you hardly can take out the gamiest in a player.

Pathfinder tries a lot to enhance role-play and character building. Look at the Heirloom weapon. A fantastic idea to have a trait that allows you to take a trait to use a other vice maybe underpowered and strange weapon that was handed down the family line.

Bolas from an ancestor three generations ago who went to the Mwangi.

A star knife for a non-cleric follower of Desna handed down from cleric mother to the wizard son.

Unfortunately I have never seen that trait being used this way,

Favoured weapons of clerics?

These are meant to immerse yourself into role-play while giving you a boon. But I just had to question my Rovagug worshipping dwarf why he was following Rovagug. He had solely selected the faith for the weapon, he didn't have a clue what the god and faith was standing for. He even missed that he would be unable to channel positive energy.

All he saw was the table in the Core Rulebook and the boons that go with it as cleric. I cringed when I found out and ensured we got a much more appropriate faith for his play style and outlook to life while preserving his favoured weapon and his domains. He didn't have a clue what Rovagug was standing for. And I can't even fault him as all he had was the table (okay - the Alignment entry should have raised alarms though) and he doesn't own any Golarion background material.

This is the moment when boons no longer help the story but become the sole driver.

There is a lot of grey in-between.

But a boon does in no way force you towards role-play.

Thod

[Enevhar Aldarion]

Mattastrophic wrote:

Mok wrote:

Basically, a three encounter per session module would require every encounter to be beating the characters within an inch of their life. For the hard core gamists they'll eagerly lap that up, but that's just one segment of the player base. So five or six encounters is needed to spread the risk out enough to fit the bulk of players.

Is there really an EL quota that has to be filled by each scenario?

And if there were a quota, and having fewer encounters would be devastating... then just shrink the quota.

-Matt

I am not sure if this fits what you are asking, but currently you do have to complete at least 3 of the 5 encounters in order to earn anything from a scenario.

[Mike Schneider]

I think by "encounters" he was referring to combats.

[Mattastrophic]

Oops. I did mean combats. Rephrased:

Is there really an EL quota that has to be filled by each scenario?

And if there were a quota, and having fewer combats would make each combat devastating... is there a reason why we can't just shrink the quota?

-Matt

[Mark Moreland]

There is no set "EL quota", but all scenarios aim to challenge PCs for the entirety, whether that be through combat or social encounters. By the end of the 6th encounter, the party should have expended most of their resources, however; thus too many roleplay-only encounters means the fights do need to be a bit harder. We've been trying to include more social or avoidable encounters in each scenario, but not every story has room for such, so there will still be the occasional hack-and-slash dungeon crawl.

This issue has little to do with the in-game rewards granted on Chronicles, however.

[Mattastrophic]

Mark Moreland wrote:

This issue has little to do with the in-game rewards granted on Chronicles, however.

OK. Without the restrictions of an EL quota, this does mean that, referring back to earlier posts, that PFS scenarios can be made more memorable by reducing the number of combats to three or less per scenario, leaving room for more interesting plotlines.

In other words, PFS is free make the scenarios themselves more memorable, not just the Chronicles.

-Matt

[Mark Moreland]

See here for info on how to get a scenario of the formula you'd most like to see published in the Pathfinder Society line.

[Gallard Stormeye]

There is already a good amount of min/maxery and munchkinism that exists within the PFS mechanics as it is. I have a friend that literally plots his character's entire career broken down by wealth and PA. He was actually complaining about the XP/PA ratio for the PFS legal modules being worse than normal scenarios. I am sure he's not the only one that does this.

The moment rewards like stat boosts start showing up and this friend declines playing for fear of leveling out and missing all the optimal rewards is the moment PFS is dead for me.

[godsDMit]

For reasons already listed in this thread that I dont wish to rehash, I feel like adding something as big as a +1 to a stat would do far more harm to PFS than good.

Im not opposed to other types of boons (in fact those are often my favorite part of the chronicle), but something like that is so much bigger than what is already available, it wouldnt add up well.

Im not saying I wouldnt play that mod, and I definteiyl wouldnt nerdrage quit pFS cause they released one, but I just dont see the benefits outweighing the cons here. Not that tha cons are huge, as it always depends on the individual players, but if the system works fine as it is now, without boons like a +1 stat, then why change it?

Personally, I think it would be horrible for my local scene, as they tend to see only the loot at the end. Sometimes I feel they only play to finish a module. Not even to level, just to be done, which is weird. I bought KQ17 so I could run Ambush in Absolom a couple weeks ago to run in the downtime at a local con, and no one wanted to play it at all cause it offered no gp,pa, or exp. Really pissed me off.

[Arnim Thayer]

godsDMit wrote:

For reasons already listed in this thread that I dont wish to rehash, I feel like adding something as big as a +1 to a stat would do far more harm to PFS than good.

Im not opposed to other types of boons (in fact those are often my favorite part of the chronicle), but something like that is so much bigger than what is already available, it wouldnt add up well.

Im not saying I wouldnt play that mod, and I definteiyl wouldnt nerdrage quit pFS cause they released one, but I just dont see the benefits outweighing the cons here. Not that tha cons are huge, as it always depends on the individual players, but if the system works fine as it is now, without boons like a +1 stat, then why change it?

Personally, I think it would be horrible for my local scene, as they tend to see only the loot at the end. Sometimes I feel they only play to finish a module. Not even to level, just to be done, which is weird. I bought KQ17 so I could run Ambush in Absolom a couple weeks ago to run in the downtime at a local con, and no one wanted to play it at all cause it offered no gp,pa, or exp. Really pissed me off.

It does make a good filler scenario, especially how your players like to fast-burn through a scenario; something to pass time while you are waiting for others to finish. I suggest offering it without telling them its official... just add it as filler. I plan on doing exactly that if we fast-burn through the DWK series when we offer it again this month. We have added a lot of new players, so filling a table with older scenarios is possible again... this will happen for you too! Just hang in there... the players you have NOW are not the only PFS players you'll see as it expands in your area.

[PaulH]

Hi

Not sure if this has already been mentioned, but why not grant a +1 to a skill? Much less powerful, and might only last for a specific period. (Eg. expires one year after the mod was played).

Limit it to special scenarios, like the Venture Captains, or special conventions, and make the skill relevant. Eg, +1/Survival if the mod is in harsh desert or Mwangi.

Makes the mod much more memorable, especially if that particular mod has a specially designed Chronicle Sheet.

It's been done before in a (now finished) 'Living' campaign, and went down well.

Thanks
Paul H

[Alceste008]

I do think that a plus to an attribute is a pretty strong reward. A reward like a bonus to a skill is perfectly okay and adds a little extra to a mod. Something like a masterwork spear that gives a +2 intimidate vs evil outsiders for example is something that I would like to see.