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Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards (Optimization)


Advice

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I was thinking that there would be some spells that would be situational enough that I wouldn't want to memorize them, but useful often enough to warrant having multiple scrolls of. If that's the case, I'd think it'd be cheapest to find a wizard, pay half the cost of writing, and copy the spells that I want. We are near a large city and my DM is very reasonable, so he'd arrange for it fairly easily. If I read it right, it'd cost 15 gp for a level 1 spell and 60 gp for a level 2 spell. Once they're in the book, I could Scribe Scroll however many I need. Because I don't have a bonded item, I'm going to be especially reliant on scrolls. That looks like the best course of action as far as I can tell.

To let you know what kind of a DM he is, he's letting me take a bonus feat at 4th level: Intimidating Prowess. That way I can add my Strength of 0 to my Charisma of -1 to use in my non class-skill and non invested in skill of Intimidate. Mainly of use so that I can tell the half-orc barbarian with unusually high charisma that he's not the only character with that skill and that in case he or the bard can't do it, well in that case we'd probably have to give up anyway. Good times.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, it occurs to me. Treantmonk, that it's possible that your ranking for Continual Flame should be changed to orange, or possibly keep at red but still suggest an alternative. If I'm reading the sections right, it'd cost 150 gp for a scroll of Continual Flame plus 50 for the casting. After that, you could cast Continual Flame onto the object that you'd otherwise cast light on every day. That way, it'd counter Darkness and free up a cantrip. It'd only be 90 gp more than an Everburning Torch and that way you could pick what has it (possibly something more inconspicuous).

Alternatively, you could research it from another wizard for 60 gp and put it in your spellbook, casting it one time on an exclusively utility day so that it wouldn't matter if you were short a combat spell. After you use it, you could pick up a scroll of Erase and use it to wipe out your spell of Continual Flame from your spellbook if space is an issue.

So that'd be either 200 gp (90 gp more than an Everburning Torch costs) or 110 or 135 gp (same or 25 more) to have an inconspicuous source of light that counters darkness and permanently frees up a cantrip.

Note: I didn't notice the material component of Continual Flame until after I made this point and by that point I figured I'd just leave it in. Too much work not to ask, and that's not much more money anyway.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

While we're on the topic, how useful is a Darkness spell when you have low-light vision as an elf? Would it be useful often enough to bother with as more than a scroll? I was also considering the possibility of casting darkness on the half-orc barbarian's big pointy stick and letting him go to town in a slightly different part of the dimly lit room than the rest of us, though if I remember right there are only two people in the whole party that don't have a racial vision bonus.

Please let me know what you think and thanks again for the guide.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So what are your guys feeling for selective spell? It allows you casts spells and choose which creatures the spell ignores for price of being one level higher. It's from Advance Player's Guide...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
nategar05 wrote:


1. I was thinking that there would be some spells that would be situational enough that I wouldn't want to memorize them, but useful often enough to warrant having multiple scrolls of.

2. While we're on the topic, how useful is a Darkness spell when you have low-light vision as an elf? Would it be useful often enough to bother with as more than a scroll? I was also considering the possibility of casting darkness on the half-orc barbarian's big pointy stick and letting him go to town in a slightly different part of the dimly lit room than the rest of us, though if I remember right there are only two people in the whole party that don't have a racial vision bonus.

1. That is what I was saying and listed some of them.

2. You may be able to have concealment (20% miss chance) if your low light vision allows you to see in an area of dim light. However, your companions w/o low light or darkvision are going to have problems too. It's rare that you would be in a situation where you could take advantage of it. In additon, a large percentage of monsters have low light, darkvision or other special senses.

Cheliax

nategar05 wrote:
While we're on the topic, how useful is a Darkness spell when you have low-light vision as an elf? Would it be useful often enough to bother with as more than a scroll? I was also considering the possibility of casting darkness on the half-orc barbarian's big pointy stick and letting him go to town in a slightly different part of the dimly lit room than the rest of us, though if I remember right there are only two people in the whole party that don't have a racial vision bonus.

Darkness is better than invisibility when used by a creature with darkvision either underground or at night. You can use darkness while attacking just fine. Though as already pointed out it only tends to work against humanoids. Pretty much every other monster has darkvision, blindsense, scent or some-such that would negate the advantage. Humans and halflings seem to be the only species without any special senses - its amazing they haven't all been wiped out in night attacks ;-)

Against humans and halflings it is a great tactic. Against elves, half-elves, gnomes and giants it is an OK tactic. So if you know you are going up against those it might be worth preparing either a slot or a scroll.

A half-orc or dwarven thief or assassin with access to the darkness spell in a human city should do very well. And night attacks should be the norm for darkvision creatures.


Just curious - why do you think that Elementals can't cast spells? Even if I can understand that Earth Elementals don't have the dexterity to do it (but how do the low dex wizards do it then? :D ), but why wouldn't Fire/Air had the ability to do it?

Also, when can we expect an update with APG spells/feats/archetypes? :D


Erevis Cale wrote:

Just curious - why do you think that Elementals can't cast spells? Even if I can understand that Earth Elementals don't have the dexterity to do it (but how do the low dex wizards do it then? :D ), but why wouldn't Fire/Air had the ability to do it?

Also, when can we expect an update with APG spells/feats/archetypes? :D

I guess I assume that elementals don't have fingers (so can't do somatic components of spells). Is this an incorrect assumption?

As for the APG. I've bought the book, but it will take awhile to read and gather opinions on the content.

There will be updates to all my guides for APG content. No timetable though. I'll make a post when the update is ready.


Quote:
I guess I assume that elementals don't have fingers (so can't do somatic components of spells). Is this an incorrect assumption?

Elementals can be of any shapes. Just look at the picture of the Earth Elementals in the Bestiary, he clearly has fists (ergo, he has fingers). Yes, he surely is clumsy, but nowhere does it say that you have to be a highly dexterous individual to be able to perform somatic components of the spells.


However, druids require a feat for natural spells. Are we assuming wizards are solely bipedal and have hands even in air elemental or water elemental form?

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

Continual Flame is a magnificent spell when used in conjunction with Heighten. It dispels all spells of lower level with the Darkness descriptor, and counters any of equal level.

So, Heighten it to 9 on an off day, and every Darkness spell in the book goes poof when it touches your Flame. Them silly drow with their little globes of darkness are going to look so peeved...especially when you start selling the flames to low level adventurers so they can kick drow arse and don't have to use blind-fighting.

==Aelryinth


Frodric wrote:
However, druids require a feat for natural spells. Are we assuming wizards are solely bipedal and have hands even in air elemental or water elemental form?

Remember that the feat also covers material components and focuses, so the fact that it helps with elemental forms, doesn't necesarily exclude the posibility to complete somatic components in elemental forms.

Humbly,
Yawar


YawarFiesta wrote:
Frodric wrote:
However, druids require a feat for natural spells. Are we assuming wizards are solely bipedal and have hands even in air elemental or water elemental form?

Remember that the feat also covers material components and focuses, so the fact that it helps with elemental forms, doesn't necesarily exclude the posibility to complete somatic components in elemental forms.

Humbly,
Yawar

Also that feat allows them to cast in beast shape... which would take a lot of still and silent spells for the wizard.


Treantmonk wrote:

As for the APG. I've bought the book, but it will take awhile to read and gather opinions on the content.

There will be updates to all my guides for APG content. No timetable though. I'll make a post when the update is ready.

I'm really waiting for this, found your GOD guide on google and had a blast for fun and usefulness ;)

Qadira

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber
Hurin wrote:
Treantmonk wrote:

As for the APG. I've bought the book, but it will take awhile to read and gather opinions on the content.

There will be updates to all my guides for APG content. No timetable though. I'll make a post when the update is ready.

I'm really waiting for this, found your GOD guide on google and had a blast for fun and usefulness ;)

I'll leave the guide stuff to Treantmonk since he's so good at it (thank you, Treantmonk)! While you wait, though, I'll offer you this advice: grab a few lesser rods of dazing spell (14,000 gp) and have fun watching your fireballs break combats.

The specific tactic is to start combat with a dazing fireball. Some will probably make their save and some won't. Those that don't fail their save walk towards your party and your BSF's engage them.

If your BSF's are having trouble with the first wave you can use stone wall to keep the other group at bay until their done. If the BSF's make short work of the first wave you can use the wall to split the group that failed their saves into two seperate groups to make the rest of the combat even easier.


Well now...

First off let me just say that i have found your guides EXTREMELY useful. I am currently playing a (hybrid) ranger, and thanks to your advice, i am likely the best glass cannon the table has seen since my (god)sorceror. However i did take exception to some of the ratings you have given on the Guide to Pathfinder Wizards: Being a God.

Wizard has always been one of my favorite classes, and at our table I have alweays been the go-to guy on advice for them, and i think that how you have rated some of the class skills and spells is just way too far off.

#1: ARCANE BOND.
Although i do see your position on losing your bonded item, (or potentially having it stolen) unless your DM is a true and total dink, this happening is VERY circumstantial IMO. Choosing a bonded ring is THE arcane bond where i play and for a reason i think you maybe missed in your evaluation.

"A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required Item Creation Feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat."

We all know how you feel about "selling your feats for magic items", but this is free and......

Lets look at this:
There is no limit to the # of powers you can add to a ring, provided you are willing to spend the extra GP on additional crafting, you DON'T need to take the feat, and as per the new rules you can craft as you adventure, provided you are willing to wait the extra time. this means you could have (like my last character did) a bonded ring of: feather fall, freedom of movement, invisibility, sustenance and wizardry II.

This is SOOOOO much better than any 1/day casting you could ever want, and quite frankly INFINATELY better than any minor bonus you get from having a familiar. Granted choosing this you wont have a familiar to scout with, or deliver touch spells with, your "the corpse" is probably just as good a scout, and "touch spells"....... well lets just say that until bestow curse and irresistable dance, we can likely do without casting a touch spell our entire wizardly lives.

And once again, understanding that this COULD in THEORY get STOLEN RIGHT OFF OF YOUR FINGER, that is going to be a SUPER rare occourance in almost every occasion.

---------------------------------

Secondly there are 2 spells in particular I think dont deserve to have the terrible rating you have given them.

DISPLACEMENT: i understand the orange rating due to duration and consideration as a SELF buff, but lets face it, this is not a self buff. At level 5 this is 5 rounds where your BSF/GC only gets hit 50% of the time, at 10th lvl its 10 rounds. Use that rod of lesser extend we all love so much, and you've got an entire battle. Deliver this with a spectral hand and you never have to get that close to the action, and as a caster that likes to control the battlefield so your party doesnt have to retroactively "catch up" to the damage delt, this is a great option to cast when those BBEG's finally start to wade through all those controls you've placed in their way. this should be GREEN for sure. every party has a tank. Having the tank take less damage? The cleric thanks you for your kind actions.

FLAME ARROW: "Not worth it as a way to "buff" the archer's ammunition, since 1d6 per arrow isn't going to add up to much."............... really? REALLY?!?!?!?! an extra 1d6 on every arrow for 50 arrows doesn't add up to much? lets do the math:
My level 6 Ranger gets 4 attacks a round most battles. thats from base + haste + rapid shot. Granted i dont hit with EVERY attack thats still potentially +4d6 fire every round. please explain how this "doesnt add up to much".

Now, if your party doesnt have an archer character than yes red is the rating for this one, but MATH and LOGIC dictate that if you DO have an archer, this goes up to green.

------------------------------

That all being said, I have found your guides to be the most useful i have read, and all of them work IN PRACTISE, not just theory. I have now tried them all, both as a DM and as a PC, and i cannot thank you enough for all the hard work and insight, you placed into these guides.


brendan king wrote:

Well now...

First off let me just say that i have found your guides EXTREMELY useful. I am currently playing a (hybrid) ranger, and thanks to your advice, i am likely the best glass cannon the table has seen since my (god)sorceror. However i did take exception to some of the ratings you have given on the Guide to Pathfinder Wizards: Being a God.

Wizard has always been one of my favorite classes, and at our table I have alweays been the go-to guy on advice for them, and i think that how you have rated some of the class skills and spells is just way too far off.

#1: ARCANE BOND.
Although i do see your position on losing your bonded item, (or potentially having it stolen) unless your DM is a true and total dink, this happening is VERY circumstantial IMO. Choosing a bonded ring is THE arcane bond where i play and for a reason i think you maybe missed in your evaluation.

"A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required Item Creation Feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat."

We all know how you feel about "selling your feats for magic items", but this is free and......

Lets look at this:
There is no limit to the # of powers you can add to a ring, provided you are willing to spend the extra GP on additional crafting, you DON'T need to take the feat, and as per the new rules you can craft as you adventure, provided you are willing to wait the extra time. this means you could have (like my last character did) a bonded ring of: feather fall, freedom of movement, invisibility, sustenance and wizardry II.

This is SOOOOO much better than any 1/day casting you could ever want, and quite frankly INFINATELY better than any minor bonus you get from having a familiar. Granted choosing this you wont have a familiar to scout with, or deliver touch spells with, your "the corpse" is probably just as good a scout, and "touch spells"....... well lets just say that until bestow curse and irresistable dance, we can likely do without casting a touch...

+2 initiative from the scorpion in the apg is useful as look at what he recommends improved initiative this is half that bonus and it stacks with improved initiative since it is an untyped bonus.


Funkytrip wrote:

Not sure if it has mentioned before, but Mind blank still seems to be handy since the duration is 24h. At higher level, there's always a lot of mind-affecting magic going around and it also stops all forms of scrying including true seeing and see invisibility.

Cast a mindblank in the morning and a greater invisibility during battle and no opponent will see you unless they have tremorsense or something. Most high level monsters and default humanoid enemies with class levels have constant true seeing or see invis. They will NOT see you. Which generally is quite handy.

Very true, until such a time as you encounter the BBE Dragon, and he's the ONLY one who can detect it, and he knows it.........


Outstanding guide overall, the one minor point of contention I would make is on the recommened stat point allocation, specifically with regards to dumping wisdom. A feebleminded God Wizard isn't going to be able to control anything. While I would not recommend deoptimizing to the point of actually boosting wisdom beyond a default of 10, I think adding 10% to the chance of failing will saves, which in many cases remove one from the battle entirely, is a poor tradeoff. Perhaps I'm being too defensive in my build, or perhaps I'm just thinking of what I would do to said player as a DM. Nonetheless, I think you can make a perfectly capable wizard without dumping wisdom, and that in the process of dumping it, quite often the minor benefit will be more than offset by the penalty.

Andoran

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jon Kines wrote:
Outstanding guide overall, the one minor point of contention I would make is on the recommened stat point allocation, specifically with regards to dumping wisdom. A feebleminded God Wizard isn't going to be able to control anything. While I would not recommend deoptimizing to the point of actually boosting wisdom beyond a default of 10, I think adding 10% to the chance of failing will saves, which in many cases remove one from the battle entirely, is a poor tradeoff. Perhaps I'm being too defensive in my build, or perhaps I'm just thinking of what I would do to said player as a DM. Nonetheless, I think you can make a perfectly capable wizard without dumping wisdom, and that in the process of dumping it, quite often the minor benefit will be more than offset by the penalty.

Not to mention the DM might incline to make your wizard look like Red Mage in terms of planning. Sure you can come up with complex plan but will not point out glaring flaws in your plans.

Qadira

Heh, agreed, I couldn't bring myself to drop wisdom to 7 (though I did make it an 8) because, generally speaking, failing will saves really, really sucks.

Very minor quibble, though, because I have thoroughly enjoyed his guides (wizard mainly since I nearly always play them) and am looking forward to his additions for the APG, not so much for the tactics but because I'm looking forward to how he describes the create pit series of spells since I've gotten a silly, silly amount of distance out of that chain in Pathfinder recently (right up there with wall of stone in 3.5).

That and the teleportation subschool that replaces acid dart with the shift ability. That's such a sweet trade-off it nearly feels like cheating taking it, and I've seen more than a couple DM's take a deep breath when the wizard breaks out of a cunning trap due to it.


Don't really understand how dumping Wisdom is even remotely a good idea... Fortitude and Will saves are the most punitive in terms of game effects when you don't make a save. Sure, if it's a 15 point buy, you won't be able to boost it, but when I have 25 points, I do it.


Verse wrote:


Very minor quibble, though, because I have thoroughly enjoyed his guides

Agreed, his guides are excellent and were very helpful to my group as a whole. All of us had been on hiatus from gaming since '99 but the Carrion Crown AP got us all back to the table. Needless to say, there was a huge learning curve from 2E to PF, and the guides from the SRD lab were a huge help in traversing that curve (as were guides from Rogue Eidolon and Tark for that matter). So anyway it is a very minor contention, but I wouldn't mind hearing his reasoning, as to my way of thinking it just creates too much of an achilles heel.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber
brendan king wrote:

Lets look at this:

There is no limit to the # of powers you can add to a ring, provided you are willing to spend the extra GP on additional crafting, you DON'T need to take the feat, and as per the new rules you can craft as you adventure, provided you are willing to wait the extra time. this means you could have (like my last character did) a bonded ring of: feather fall, freedom of movement, invisibility, sustenance and wizardry II.

In LSJ my wizard currently has an amulet as his bonded object, he's added no qualities to it but it is an amulet of toughness normally. Currently he's at 12th level at some point soon, he's going to switch his arcane bond to staff and turn it to a staff of power. Am I giving myself a bit of vulnerability by doing so? Yes, but the tradeoff is worth it to me.


It would be nice if the original poster could update his content to include all the more recent up to date content. Such as spells from UM, class options and school secondary options.

Still, a rather useful guide none the less.


One disadvantage of an Elf summoner isn't mentioned in the guide. The only useful outsider language Elfs can choose for high intelligence is Celestial. Humans and Half-Elfs can choose any.
This means Elfs need to invest about 6 ranks in Linguistics while Humans/Half-Elfs don't (for this purpose).


Ah knew this would be useful "Pulls out a dusty old scroll from his robe"

Thread Resurrection!

Treantmonk, now that your back on the Paizo forms, what do you think of the new Elemental Schools and Arcane Discoveries in AP and UM?


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber
Alakqualyn wrote:

Ah knew this would be useful "Pulls out a dusty old scroll from his robe"

Thread Resurrection!

Treantmonk, now that your back on the Paizo forms, what do you think of the new Elemental Schools and Arcane Discoveries in AP and UM?

What Treantmonk is back?

Is that true?


leo1925 wrote:
Alakqualyn wrote:

Ah knew this would be useful "Pulls out a dusty old scroll from his robe"

Thread Resurrection!

Treantmonk, now that your back on the Paizo forms, what do you think of the new Elemental Schools and Arcane Discoveries in AP and UM?

What Treantmonk is back?

Is that true?

Yeah, I saw him in an intimidate thread. Doesn't mean he has time to do a full update for all the new books though. I know I'm always around but I haven't had time yet for mine, and I only would have to do feats and archetypes, not spells too.

To answer Alak's question, I *think* he would dislike the Elemental Schools in general because they are little use for summoning and he likes summoning for wizards even more than I do.

For discoveries:

Arcane Builder is unnecessary,
Fast Study is amazing,
Feral Speech would be one of those situational reds where he puts all animal-based abilities,
Golem Constructor is OK for giving an NPC one type of construct at lower levels but is no real substitute for the actual Craft Construct,
Immortality is fluff but does fit the image of a 'God' Wizard well,
Multimorph can be useful for a shapeshifting build but you should try to just take the form you need the first time around,
Opposition Research is nice if you find yourself dipping into one of your opposition schools more than once or twice a day,
Split Slot is an interesting idea but probably not worth your feat,
True Name he would like even more than I do because it has summoning and would definitely recommend (though watch out on the clause where the GM can decide if you're abusing the poor thing), and
Staff-Like Wand comes just a bit too late to be as good as it could (if it came at level 5 like some of the others, you might still be at the point where you can't afford staves, but by level 11, if you want this ability you could probably just buy a staff. If your GM allows you to buy a wand of absolutely anything in the world but limits you to only the staves in the core book for some reason, this becomes very good indeed as a means of shoring up your lower-level spell selections for things where DC and caster level actually matter).


I love it when someone else does my work for me, RE - GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!! :)

I have not thoroughly gone through UM (I bought it on PDF, but wasn't in love with it enough for book form, which I generally prefer for reading/researching)

What I have read pretty much matches up with what RE said, except a few things:

Fast study: depends on the style of play. If you keep some slots open for last minute filling, then it is really good, if you fill all your slots at the beginning of the day while studying safely within a rope trick or secure shelter, then it's not necessary.

Split slot: too expensive. Giving up a 3rd level spell for 2 second level spells would be a good deal, for 2 first level spells, not so much. Once your level gets significantly higher, the difference is less painful, but the ability is also less needed.

True name: RE had my view on this, but it is worth noting that depending on your GM, you may be better off with the more clearly defined planar binding spells

None of the elemental schools excited me overly, though I haven't looked at them in depth.

Also worthy of note, I like the teleportation subschool. Never again worry about getting grappled, and you don't even have to give up your casting that round.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber

He's back.

Question:
How do you don't give up casting for that round? You mean cast while grappled and then swift action to get away?


Treantmonk wrote:
Also worthy of note, I like the teleportation subschool. Never again worry about getting grappled, and you don't even have to give up your casting that round.

Only if you get your spell off while still being grappled. The Shift ability of the Subschool "works as if using dimension door" which probably means it ends your turn.

The ability is still amazing, of course. Can also make touch range spells THAT much easier to deliver.

Standard action: Cast spell.
Move Action: Go to target.
Free Action: Touch.
Swift Action: Use Shift to get out.
Free Action: Profit.


Treantmonk wrote:


Fast study: depends on the style of play. If you keep some slots open for last minute filling, then it is really good, if you fill all your slots at the beginning of the day while studying safely within a rope trick or secure shelter, then it's not necessary.

Based on my experience playing an Alchemist (which admittedly has a much smaller list even than a Wizard who is dutiful about adding to his spellbook), the opportunities to spend one minute to prep exactly the right effect are always well worth it (often if you aren't counting down the timing for minute / level spells or directly in a fight, you have the time). Our Kingmaker Wizard has this discovery and it comes quite in handy. For some spells, you can just get by with scrolls, but for others, it's nice to have your full caster level and DC behind them.

Granted it's worthless if you don't leave slots open, but I'd rate leaving slots open with this discovery to be a 'blue' choice.

Also--yes, Teleportation Subschool rocks hard.

The Foresight subschool is also amazing overall and particularly powerful at low levels. Our Kingmaker elven wizard rocked some serious bow damage from levels 1-3 because he can just roll a hanging dice and choose to only ever fire his bow if his hanging dice is a 20 (he also carries a non-proficient scythe that we plan to Bless Weapon for this purpose)--he'll use his longsword or a crossbow if the hanging dice is a 19. Now that he's higher level, he can also use it to get crits off Shocking Grasp and the like.


SRD wrote:

Acadamae Graduate (Local)

You have passed the grueling Test of Summoning and graduated from the Acadamae.
Prerequisites: Specialist wizard level 1st, cannot have conjuration as a forbidden school, Korvosa affinity.

Benefit: Whenever you cast a prepared arcane spell from the conjuration (summoning) school that takes longer than a standard action to cast, reduce the casting time by one round (to a minimum casting time of one standard action). Casting a spell in this way is taxing and requires a Fortitude save (DC 15 + spell level) to resist becoming fatigued.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/local-feats/acadamae-graduate-local-1

Treantmonk and his other loyal friends,What do you guys think of this feat,
How can it be used effectively,
How would you guys rate it,
Exc,
Thanks for the advise,
Black Lotus


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber

@Black Lotus
Is that the feat from the curse of the crimson throne guide?
If yes then i have to say to you that it's 3.5 and not pathfinder.


leo1925 wrote:

@Black Lotus

Is that the feat from the curse of the crimson throne guide?
If yes then i have to say to you that it's 3.5 and not pathfinder.

It was made by pazo and from the pathfinder srd?


It isn't on the SRD, that is the PFSRD, which is a fan site, not an official one (it's the one I use at is is better run and maintained, but it still remains a fan site), and that site lists it as "fan content"

That said, it was also written by Paizo staff for a Paizo product (it just happened to predate Pathfinder RPG), so I could see some DM's letting it slide if you asked nicely.

Personally, I would jump all over that feat if it was allowed. If I fail the save I become fatigued. I can live with that. Full round casting is a major pain, reducing casting time to a standard action is sweet.


One point in favor of the avadamae graduate feat, it is PFS legal.


Treantmonk wrote:

It isn't on the SRD, that is the PFSRD, which is a fan site, not an official one (it's the one I use at is is better run and maintained, but it still remains a fan site), and that site lists it as "fan content"

That said, it was also written by Paizo staff for a Paizo product (it just happened to predate Pathfinder RPG), so I could see some DM's letting it slide if you asked nicely.

Personally, I would jump all over that feat if it was allowed. If I fail the save I become fatigued. I can live with that. Full round casting is a major pain, reducing casting time to a standard action is sweet.

Blergh. That looks like one of the content postings we missed. The feat should have a Pathfinder Accessory (Converted) stamp, not a fan content/converted stamp. If you look closer, you'll find that about 99.99995% of all material on d20pfsrd.com with a "Fan Stamp" is actually material that has been converted to Pathfinder following the guidelines in the official conversion guide and the methods we've observed Paizo using when converting material.


Thanks Caedwyr! That makes it pretty clear, it is 3.5 converted to Pathfinder.

In other words, you better make sure 3.5 material converted to Pathfinder is cool with your GM before you take it!


Treantmonk wrote:

Thanks Caedwyr! That makes it pretty clear, it is 3.5 converted to Pathfinder.

In other words, you better make sure 3.5 material converted to Pathfinder is cool with your GM before you take it!

Yup. And given some of the 3.5 material that may end up being converted (but not rebalanced) GMs will probably want to take a look and okay things on a case-by-case basis. That said, GMs should probably be doing that with some of the PFRPG material Paizo has released.


True!


Whould you change any of the feats order for that feat?
If u get fatiaged, can u be exasheted next round?
Is it still worth it?


Under "fatigue" it says that if you do anything that would make you fatigued while you are already fatigued, you become exhausted.

The feat states no exception to this rule, so if you summoned, failed your save, then summoned and failed your save again, you would become exhausted.

How devastating this would be to your character I would think would come down largely to encumbrance. If you could swallow the ability penalties and keep casting, it's not the end of the world.

Even if the ability penalties are too much to swallow, simply restrict your summoning to once per combat if you fail your saving throw.

As for where I would put it in my list of recommended feats, (Naturally I won't be doing that officially since it is 3.5 material) it would depend on the type of caster I was making. If I was a conjuration specialist focused largely on summoning, it would probably have it by 3rd level, 5th at the latest.


Are you sure its 3.5 content? It's from the Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide, page 11.


Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Tales Subscriber
Allia Thren wrote:

Are you sure its 3.5 content? It's from the Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide, page 11.

Yes the Rise of the Runelords, Legacy of Fire, Curse of the Crimson Throne APs are all 3.5, the rest are pathfinder.


Hi i find your guide excelent, i disagree in a couple of things but every opinion in the guide is useful. unfortunately i build my character before read your guide so i possibly make some mistakes, i would like to know your opinion about several point

- is a wizard 3/ cleric 3/ mystic theurge 7 dedicated to buff and heal, and if i need to be ofensive i cast spell with no saving trow like ray of exhaustion and black tentacles

- I know the issues with compatibility but Practiced spellcaster from complete arcane is a must, and divine metamagic (for extend and still spells) is a useful way to use my channel energy ( since it stuck in 2d6) and my DM allow 3.5 material

- is a universalist wizard, i know very bad(BAD!) choise but at least i have a lot of spell from the cleric list so i never run ot of spell, and the arcanamorium crafter let me have a extra feat

- I have a bonded ring. the familiar doesn`t improve with the levels in the prestige class, and the rules for bonded item are vague enough to still enhance it with several useful stuff

- Domains. protection ( the bonus to Saving throw should be divine) and law (with touch of law never miss a spellcraft check to add spell to the spellbook), not hte best but not the worst

Defense first (i need to stay alive to help others)

- Arcane armor training. why it have to be so expensive? losing a swift action is bad very bad, but if i need that swift action i still can cast divine spell,and i have the armor proficience from the cleric levels and with the twilight property from magic item compendium i can have a good ac

- Have a good ac. I know, the Ac is not the best defense, but i have to be close enough to the melee pc to heal them and use several buff and actualy i have prety good ac. i have a +5 mithral armor a +5 mitrahl shield, and the reason to choose the bonded item is +2 defelction +2 divine +2 luck ... bonus to ac. and the are several augmented crystal from the magic item compendium that ara useful , crystal of arrow deflection ( it doesn`t say is a defelction bonus :D) and iron ward diamon (DR )

- Defensive combat training. of course

- Have a good saving trows. the will save is high, the fortitude save is not bad (for the cleric levels), intuitive refelxes (3.5 player handbook 2) help a lot with ref save.

favored spells.

- invisibility. for me of course
- displacement. not for me, for the cleric or the figther
- improved invisibility. not for me ( the cleric of gorun cast a lot of ofensive spells)
- heroism
- overland flight
- Stone skin. make the others pay for this XD
- magic weapong greater. +3 to atk and damage all day

NOTE 1: any sugestion is wellcome

NOTE 2: i`m not a native english speaker, so i apologize for any mistake with the words


Nicos wrote:
and my DM allow 3.5 material

This changes everything. Please check out my 3.5 guide for some suggestions for 3.5 feats and PrC's. There is some AMAZING options available for wizards in 3.5

Treantmonk's guide to 3.5 wizards


o.O! too much information at once, definitely i need to reed it in deep.

but is to late for my actual Pc,i make many decision that i can`t change.
anyways what do you think of the buffer/healer heavy defense build?

NOTE. thaks for the information!!


Nicos wrote:

o.O! too much information at once, definitely i need to reed it in deep.

but is to late for my actual Pc,i make many decision that i can`t change.
anyways what do you think of the buffer/healer heavy defense build?

NOTE. thaks for the information!!

Well, MT is an unoptimized choice, healing isn't really what you want to do in combat, buffing is certainly a good idea. Consider picking up some walls too, they are less CL dependent than other spells.

Taldor

Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Tales Subscriber
leo1925 wrote:
Allia Thren wrote:

Are you sure its 3.5 content? It's from the Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide, page 11.

Yes the Rise of the Runelords, Legacy of Fire, Curse of the Crimson Throne APs are all 3.5, the rest are pathfinder.

Not quite, Second Darkness is 3.5 as well.


Treantmonk wrote:


Well, MT is an unoptimized choice, healing isn't really what you want to do in combat, buffing is certainly a good idea. Consider picking up some walls too, they are less CL dependent than other spells.

i have wall of stone from the cleric list (great spell).

MT is not a god wizard, i try tomake him a suport caracter like the cleric but with the versatility of casting wizards spells, for now i don`t know if is a good idea i nees to see how good o bad he is.

Healing is not a good full time option, but sometime it save lives even prevent TPK, and i don`t mean heal just hp damge but poison ad other status condition ( a sorcerer feebleminded is just nothing)

And again thanks for the information, the trnasmutation list of spells is just great

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