Psionics...


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Dark Archive

My players have asked about Psionics in Pathfinder. Is there any information out there? If there is a supplement out there, can you point me in the right direction.

Thanks in advance!!!!

Cheers

Liberty's Edge

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Arinsen wrote:

My players have asked about Psionics in Pathfinder. Is there any information out there? If there is a supplement out there, can you point me in the right direction.

Thanks in advance!!!!

Cheers

what exactly are you looking for?... There are no rules on Psionics for Pathfinder, but you can just use the current 3.5 rules.

Are you looking for setting specific information on Pssionics? WHat cultures have psionics in them?

Dark Archive

Im looking for psionic talents in general. its good to know I can use the 3.5 stuff.

thanks

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If you have the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting hardback, there is a section on Psionics toward the end of the book.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Arinsen wrote:

Im looking for psionic talents in general. its good to know I can use the 3.5 stuff.

thanks

they Might tweek the rules sometime way in the Future, but for now Jason says there is no reason you can't use the Psionics in 3.5 as is.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Lord Fyre wrote:
If you have the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting hardback, there is a section on Psionics toward the end of the book.

there is?.... Well, almost there, just finishing the Religion chapter.

Dark Archive

Arinsen wrote:

My players have asked about Psionics in Pathfinder. Is there any information out there? If there is a supplement out there, can you point me in the right direction.

The Campaign setting (and Pathfinder articles) suggest that psionics are most common in the Darklands (among creatures like the Seugathi, Intellect Devourers, Aboleth, etc.), in Vudra (a strongly India-themed area) and on other worlds that sometimes can connect with Golarion, such as Castrovel.

There's no reason why a character of any race or nationality couldn't have psionic abilities straight out of the SRD (and there have been no rules changes to SRD Psionics for Golarion, as of yet), but it would be most thematically appropriate from a Vudrani character (although a Varisian 'witch' with 'the sight' and the 'power to enchant a mans mind' would be in-keeping with the Gypsy-theme of the Varisians, and I'm sure that one could find a plethora of other ways to work a certain form of psionics into this culture or that).

The ancient Azlanti interactions with the Aboleth could also have seeded some of their heirs (which more or less include many of the people of Cheliax (especially), Andoran, Taldor, etc.) with latent psionic potential, which could be awakened in rare 'gifted' children, who may have more Azlanti-than-normal features, and dream strange dreams of sunken cities and hear the frustratingly not-quite-comprehensible whispers of vast intelligences lurking just on the edges of perception, pressing in from the sides, the stars and beneath the surface of the earth, as if seeking entry into this world from some imperceptible place...

Then again, you could veer completely off-script, go all von Daniken and say that the ancient Osirioni built their great pyramids with gestalt acts of telekinesis incomprehensible to modern scholars of the art, with the most psionically active individuals having been purged from Osirion lands so many centuries ago (and even the records of their existence stricken from memory during the purges, thanks to arcane and divinely empowered Pharoahs, who would brook no competition from the powers of the mind) and having fled into the Mwangi Expanse, resulting in the most prominent 'psions' of the modern age living hidden lives deep within the jungles, using their mental arts to provide for themselves and their people, taming the savage beasts, coordinating hunts, healing the sick and communicating with other 'mindwalkers' across great distances.

And a character could believe all of this, having been taught it by her Mwangi mentor in the mental arts, even if you, as DM, rule it complete felgercarb. That's the joy of being DM. :)

Note that while the appendix lists Psionics as being on pages 232-233, it's actually on 234-235.


so would Paizo be intrested in rules for Pathfinder to have psionics. I.e. ag roup of us or one of us loking at the current 3.5 and making them more pathfinder like?


A 3rd Party has already started on these boards here. Haven't followed it, so I don't know if they are still working on it.


They are still working on it. Currently they are in a mix of open alpha and beta testing with a few near finalized elements. It looks good and I'd love to bring a Blue Psion into the game as a villian. Why the blue needed an LA in 3.5 I will never know.


I would bet the farm on it (if I had one) that Paizo will do a Pathfinder Psionics Portfolio


From a few statements when they do get to em they are unlikely to look much like the 3.5 rules for em. Much like epic rules they are hinting at a ground up reworking to make them work they need to to a bit better.

Prob won't be soon but dreamscarred is supporting the 3.5 version if that's the one ya like best.


seekerofshadowlight wrote:

From a few statements when they do get to em they are unlikely to look much like the 3.5 rules for em. Much like epic rules they are hinting at a ground up reworking to make them work they need to to a bit better.

Prob won't be soon but dreamscarred is supporting the 3.5 version if that's the one ya like best.

Which I do. Which is also why I'm excited about DSP's product, and frustrated with Paizo's attitude regarding Psionics in general.


I don't see the big deal. DSP is giving ya just what you want. That leaves paizo clear to do just what they want and not leave 3.5 psionic fans high and dry. OGL is win /win sometimes


I actually think it will be easier for Paizo to do their own version of psionics once Dreamscarred Press has finished theirs.

Not that Paizo will try to refine Dreamscarred's product.. but rather once there is a product that will satisfy the fans of traditional psionics, there will be space for Paizo to try something new.

Edit: Not that I am anticipating them to undertake it any time soon.


Agreed. I for one want something new, something that works better with core. But am glad something is being done for folks that love the current system.


KaeYoss wrote:
I would bet the farm on it (if I had one) that Paizo will do a Pathfinder Psionics Portfolio

I would bet my farm and see you a tractor and two cows

If I had any of that stuff


I used to be a fan of Psionics in 2nd ed. But though out the entire 2nd and 3.x I found the main problem was defenses. The abilities were nice, but nothing innately had any proper defenses. This made it game breaking.

I was looking for early rules for psionics in the bestiary, like monsters having some sort of defense already built in, but this was to no a vile, so I really doubt psionics fitting in pathfinder.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:

I used to be a fan of Psionics in 2nd ed. But though out the entire 2nd and 3.x I found the main problem was defenses. The abilities were nice, but nothing innately had any proper defenses. This made it game breaking.

I was looking for early rules for psionics in the bestiary, like monsters having some sort of defense already built in, but this was to no a vile, so I really doubt psionics fitting in pathfinder.

...Defenses...?

There are no psionic attack nodes and whatnot in 3.5. Nor are there defenses specifically needed against psionics if you take the assumed transparency.

The Exchange

The defenses against Psionics are your AC (mostly touch) and your saves, just like what protects you from pretty much everything else in the entire game.

Even in the variant "Psionics is Different" outlook (which was a variant), the only difference was how it interacted with detect/dispel/antimagic stuff. With how it is, it's no more gamebreaking than anything a wizard or sorcerer can do.

There's actually a very good thread over on the DSP boards that goes into great detail about every reason most of the uninitiated give for psionics being broken, and proves every point wrong with empirical evidence to back it up. After reading that and taking those exact arguments to my friends that said that the psionic system was broken, they eventually broke down and admitted that they just didn't want to have to learn how psionics work (even though it seems like a simplistic enough system to me).


There is a psionics supplement being devloped for Pathfinder by the Dreamscarred Press, you can partake of the discussion and get the alpha and beta builds for classes, feats, races, skills and soem powers here.

Thus far, things have been fairly straightforward with the psion and wilder, powers are due some fine-tuning (energy powers that you used to be able to change types on freely will now require a wild surge or psionic focus to change energy type) and the psychic warrior and soul knife builds also need some tuning.

If you prefer to use the 3.5 stuff for now, I would recomend that you upgrade the hit dice on the psion and wilder, and the BAB on the soulknife as 'quick fixes' until the refined Pathfinder versions are ready.

As for 'fixing' psionics, the 3.5 version wasn't broken (systemically), so far as I can see, especially if you use the default psionics/magic transparency (Dreamscarred have taken this a step further, merging Psicraft with Spellcraft for example). Most agree for example that the psychic warrior was one of the most balanced classes across the board, and the best 'gish' class produced for 3.5.


Dreamscarred is very good at handling psionics. The fact that they seem to have completely ignored any encouragement to remove PPs is enough to make me want to hug them. Psionics was always the better "magic" system.


Kuma wrote:
Psionics was always the better "magic" system.

It has some neat flavor, but the 3.5 incarnation of psionics is a nightmare from a game-mechanics standpoint. I've never run a game with psionic characters that didn't outshine their party members (casters or otherwise).

I'm very happy Paizo is reworking and rebalancing the system. If I never see 'power points' again, it'll be too soon.


Rake wrote:
Kuma wrote:
Psionics was always the better "magic" system.

It has some neat flavor, but the 3.5 incarnation of psionics is a nightmare from a game-mechanics standpoint. I've never run a game with psionic characters that didn't outshine their party members (casters or otherwise).

I'm very happy Paizo is reworking and rebalancing the system. If I never see 'power points' again, it'll be too soon.

Psionics has always used power points ... some would say that was the point of it. I have found that psionic characters, while they have the potential to 'nova' better than Vancian casters, generally run out of steam much faster. Once you realise this as a player and as a DM, they start to work very nicely.

As one person I debated this with summed it up:
"The psionic manifester has a better resource management system than a normal caster, but he has less resources to manage."

There's a comparison of the two here that answers a fair few questions. On the whole, the psionics system balances well with the casting system, especially in pathfinder with it's 'fixed' sorcerers.


Rake wrote:
Kuma wrote:
Psionics was always the better "magic" system.

It has some neat flavor, but the 3.5 incarnation of psionics is a nightmare from a game-mechanics standpoint. I've never run a game with psionic characters that didn't outshine their party members (casters or otherwise).

I'm very happy Paizo is reworking and rebalancing the system. If I never see 'power points' again, it'll be too soon.

I have to say, I've noticed the same thing. There are some powers that are just flat out broken. I don't think the system as a whole is at fault though, just a few of the powers and feats. Personally, I like the PP system more than the regular magic system.


Rake wrote:
Kuma wrote:
Psionics was always the better "magic" system.

It has some neat flavor, but the 3.5 incarnation of psionics is a nightmare from a game-mechanics standpoint. I've never run a game with psionic characters that didn't outshine their party members (casters or otherwise).

I'm very happy Paizo is reworking and rebalancing the system. If I never see 'power points' again, it'll be too soon.

In that case, I would suggest not looking at the Monk too closely.

Dumm de dumm. Move along citizen. Nothing to see here.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Hunterofthedusk wrote:
There's actually a very good thread over on the DSP boards that goes into great detail about every reason most of the uninitiated give for psionics being broken, and proves every point wrong with empirical evidence to back it up.

If someone has the link handy, I'd appreciate it.


Would this be the one?

As for the over-powered powers, yes some are overpowered, so were some spells. Some weren't, though, but people still complained about them. One common one was that powers that were more versatile than spells were over powered - this isn't true. Psionic characters have far less powers than sorcerers or wizards have spells; ergo, the powers are more versatile to compensate.

The most versatile powers, the energy-based ones, are direct damage powers when direct damage is widely agreed to be the least effective use of a spell or power; plus, the psionic direct damaging powers usually have less area effect than equivelent spells. Yes, a wilder, for example, is 'better' at direct damage than a sorcerer in that they can inflict more damage to a single target - but they have way less powers compared to the sorcerer's spells' and they will have likely very few ways of inflicting area effect damage.

Edit:
The wilder, for example, can inflict 8d6 energy damage at 6th level to one target with an augmented and wild-surged energy ray. On the other hand, the only area effect energy damage power he could have is a line effect, and he has only four powers, total; manifesting this 1st level power has in effect taken up the resources of a 3rd level spell, as well. Compare that to a sorcerer's 7 spells of 1st to 3rd level (and another 7 cantrips), and that he can throw a fireball with a twenty-foot radius, or a burning hands inflicting 5d4 damage several times taking very little of his resources.


Dabbler wrote:

Would this be the one?

As for the over-powered powers, yes some are overpowered, so were some spells. Some weren't, though, but people still complained about them. One common one was that powers that were more versatile than spells were over powered - this isn't true. Psionic characters have far less powers than sorcerers or wizards have spells; ergo, the powers are more versatile to compensate.

The most versatile powers, the energy-based ones, are direct damage powers when direct damage is widely agreed to be the least effective use of a spell or power; plus, the psionic direct damaging powers usually have less area effect than equivelent spells. Yes, a wilder, for example, is 'better' at direct damage than a sorcerer in that they can inflict more damage to a single target - but they have way less powers compared to the sorcerer's spells' and they will have likely very few ways of inflicting area effect damage.

Edit:
The wilder, for example, can inflict 8d6 energy damage at 6th level to one target with an augmented and wild-surged energy ray. On the other hand, the only area effect energy damage power he could have is a line effect, and he has only four powers, total; manifesting this 1st level power has in effect taken up the resources of a 3rd level spell, as well. Compare that to a sorcerer's 7 spells of 1st to 3rd level (and another 7 cantrips), and that he can throw a fireball with a twenty-foot radius, or a burning hands inflicting 5d4 damage several times taking very little of his resources.

8d6 +6 if fire or ice, and spontaneous choice of energy. I played a Wilder and never once felt the need for more PP after lvl 3, even novaing constantly with that spell. I can't say the same for a sorc. But thats not the broken spell in my mind. What you could do with psionic constructs was just hideous, especially with overchannel. And my psi-warrior with the power to take 100 HP from an enemy, fort for half, and heal an equal ammount was just disgusting. My brother GMing nefted that one hard, making d10/lvl instead of a flat 10. Even then it was still an amasing power.


Caineach wrote:
8d6 +6 if fire or ice, and spontaneous choice of energy. I played a Wilder and never once felt the need for more PP after lvl 3, even novaing constantly with that spell. I can't say the same for a sorc. But thats not the broken spell in my mind. What you could do with psionic constructs was just hideous, especially with overchannel. And my psi-warrior with the power to take 100 HP from an enemy, fort for half, and heal an equal ammount was just disgusting. My brother GMing nefted that one hard, making d10/lvl instead of a flat 10. Even then it was still an amasing power.

Oh, I'm playing an 8th level wilder in a game where I've run out of power several times, but then the DM there has a habit of throwing several encounters at us in quick succession. The biggest problem I have had, though, is just not having a power that can do anything at all in some situations, and this is using the 'trained' option as well! The free change of energy type really just means that you are likely to find one that a target doesn't have resistance to; fire and ice are the most common ones, with electricity a close third.

I know Empathic Transfer, Hostile is pretty nasty, but bear in mind two things:


  • You must have taken that damage in the first place;
  • It is mind affecting, and lots of things are imune to mind-affecting powers and spells.

At the same time, I think it is in line for the nerf-bat from Dreamscarred. The concept isn't bad, but as you say the damage transferred is perhaps too high.


Dabbler wrote:
Caineach wrote:
8d6 +6 if fire or ice, and spontaneous choice of energy. I played a Wilder and never once felt the need for more PP after lvl 3, even novaing constantly with that spell. I can't say the same for a sorc. But thats not the broken spell in my mind. What you could do with psionic constructs was just hideous, especially with overchannel. And my psi-warrior with the power to take 100 HP from an enemy, fort for half, and heal an equal ammount was just disgusting. My brother GMing nefted that one hard, making d10/lvl instead of a flat 10. Even then it was still an amasing power.

Oh, I'm playing an 8th level wilder in a game where I've run out of power several times, but then the DM there has a habit of throwing several encounters at us in quick succession. The biggest problem I have had, though, is just not having a power that can do anything at all in some situations, and this is using the 'trained' option as well! The free change of energy type really just means that you are likely to find one that a target doesn't have resistance to; fire and ice are the most common ones, with electricity a close third.

I know Empathic Transfer, Hostile is pretty nasty, but bear in mind two things:


  • You must have taken that damage in the first place;
  • It is mind affecting, and lots of things are imune to mind-affecting powers and spells.

At the same time, I think it is in line for the nerf-bat from Dreamscarred. The concept isn't bad, but as you say the damage transferred is perhaps too high.

Yeah, My Wilder was a 1 trick pony. See BBEG - Kill BBEG with Energy Ray. I ignored most other things or used 1 PP energy rays against everyone else. The party had a negative energy cleric with an undead swarm and an evoker, so crowd control wasn't a problem.

The Psi-Warrior was in a group with no healing except a wizard with a few ranks in UMD. He routinely got down <25% and was dealing 70 damage with it on a regular basis.


You were fortunate - my wilder is in a 3-person party with a rogue/inquisitive and a cleric/radiant servent. They are actually a wilder 8/seer 1 just for a few extra powers, but against anything but undead she is the party damage-dealer, pure and simple.

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Dabbler wrote:
I know Empathic Transfer, Hostile is pretty nasty, but bear in mind two things:

  • You must have taken that damage in the first place;
  • It is mind affecting, and lots of things are imune to mind-affecting powers and spells.

Also, WotC issued an official errata that cut the damage dealt by hostile empathic transfer in half. (See Complete Psionic, page 85.)


I missed that! That makes it much, much better.

I do know thy halved the enhancement to DC for energy missile in Complete Psionic, the original +1 per 1 point augmentation was a typo or something.


wasnt there a group was trying to pathfinderize psionics? i was almost sure i read that somewhere.


I always love these "psionics are OP" conversations. Because they're so not, at least not in 3.5.

what's that 8d6+6 at 6th level? To a single target...with a ranged touch attack...at close range...and still deal with SR. Scorching ray is equivalent which is 8d6 at 7th level, gets better yet, and never "costs" more than a 2nd level slot or 3pp.

Hostile Empathic Transfer, while strong, did a maximum of 90 damage (at 9th level) with a melee touch attack, successful SR check, and failed will save. Mediocre really, though being able to heal yourself is strong for a caster type you also have to let yourself get hit enough to make it worthwhile which is foolish.

But okay, I'll even concede that most Psionic blasting spells are just plain better than Sor/Wiz. But all in all I don't feel the Psionic attack powers, even the really really good ones, were particularly better than an even level save or die spell from a Wizard.

I played a Dark Sun campaign for years, eventually reaching epic levels with a human Psion, and yes I was very powerful. So is a wizard at that level.

The only balancing factor that I implemented when I ran a game which had a lot of psionics is 1)you have to choose the blasting powers known once for each element 2)no psionic items because I feel the idea is silly.


Caineach wrote:
Dabbler wrote:

Would this be the one?

As for the over-powered powers, yes some are overpowered, so were some spells. Some weren't, though, but people still complained about them. One common one was that powers that were more versatile than spells were over powered - this isn't true. Psionic characters have far less powers than sorcerers or wizards have spells; ergo, the powers are more versatile to compensate.

The most versatile powers, the energy-based ones, are direct damage powers when direct damage is widely agreed to be the least effective use of a spell or power; plus, the psionic direct damaging powers usually have less area effect than equivelent spells. Yes, a wilder, for example, is 'better' at direct damage than a sorcerer in that they can inflict more damage to a single target - but they have way less powers compared to the sorcerer's spells' and they will have likely very few ways of inflicting area effect damage.

Edit:
The wilder, for example, can inflict 8d6 energy damage at 6th level to one target with an augmented and wild-surged energy ray. On the other hand, the only area effect energy damage power he could have is a line effect, and he has only four powers, total; manifesting this 1st level power has in effect taken up the resources of a 3rd level spell, as well. Compare that to a sorcerer's 7 spells of 1st to 3rd level (and another 7 cantrips), and that he can throw a fireball with a twenty-foot radius, or a burning hands inflicting 5d4 damage several times taking very little of his resources.

8d6 +6 if fire or ice, and spontaneous choice of energy. I played a Wilder and never once felt the need for more PP after lvl 3, even novaing constantly with that spell. I can't say the same for a sorc. But thats not the broken spell in my mind. What you could do with psionic constructs was just hideous, especially with overchannel. And my...

Many of your complaints you have listed have been re-written (Complete Psionic) so as to be more balanced.


Lokai wrote:
wasnt there a group was trying to pathfinderize psionics? i was almost sure i read that somewhere.

Yes, Dreamscarred Press, the link is here.

They aren't doing a bad job so far either. Playing a 3.5 psionic character in a Pathfinder game, the biggest problem compared to being a caster is the 0-level spells. Dreamscarred had an inovative solution to this - rather than re-introducing 0-level powers, they amended some 1st level powers such that while maintaining psionic focus you can produce a very limited manifestation at no power point cost; for example a 1d3 damage energy ray.


Guy Ladouceur wrote:
Many of your complaints you have listed have been re-written (Complete Psionic) so as to be more balanced.

Do not listen to this man.

There is nothing of value in CPsi.

Nothing.


Wrong. Some of it was valuable errata, and some handy powers, feats and classes were contained therein. Other parts of it were dire, though - like most of the Complete books it was a mix.

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Yay! Another thread asking if PF has psionics devolves into a pointless shouting match about 3.5 psionics!

/facepalm


Dabbler wrote:
Wrong. Some of it was valuable errata, and some handy powers, feats and classes were contained therein. Other parts of it were dire, though - like most of the Complete books it was a mix.

Wrong. WotC sold you errata for $30. No feats, powers, or classes were anything less than absolute catastrophes. Bruce R. Cordell, long a champion of psionics, should be ashamed of himself to have his name on that worthless waste of paper.

The first 4 complete books were rather good books, especially Adventurer. CP is abyssmal.


I beg to differ, I found some of the feats, powers etc. to be very useful, and I liked the concepts behind some of the new classes as well, although their execution was less than stellar. Then again, this is par for the course with the Complete series - classes like the Samurai (CWar), Ninja (CAdv), Spellthief (CAdv), Hexblade (CWar) and several others were at best indifferent. Some seem to have been deliberately made weaker to detract from 'cool' value, or were given mechanics that were just too fiddly to be easily applied, and others seemed to be just filler material. Other new classes, like the Scout, Swashbuckler, Favoured Soul etc. were well thought-out and valuable contributions.

In the CPsi, the Lurk was fairly good (if I was pathfinderising it, I'd give it d8 hit dice, ordinary sneak attack rather than 'psionic' sneak attack, and Trapfinding), the Ardent was passable (needed better hit dice, to be honest, and the mantle power requirements were just too awkward in places) and the Divine Mind was a reasonable concept that was badly underpowered (needs upgrading to full BAB).

There were a useful number of feats and powers, although I felt Damp Power was too powerful for a 2nd level power.

I consider the errata to be just a bonus, quite frankly.

Of course opinions vary - a great many complained that the changes to Astral Construct were utterly unnecessary nerfs, in spite of the added feats for these. I know some hated it for that and other details, but that's no reason not to mention what it got right as well as condemn it for what it got wrong.


That's just it though, I don't feel it got anything right!

The "Lurk" was (and still may be) available free on the WotC site as the Psionic Rogue. Saying psionic this or psionic that just ruins the flavor of psionics quite frankly. The ardent and the divine mind go against EVERYTHING we've known about psionics for 30 years flavor wise, and were awful mechanically.

Virtually all the feats were awful, and just a zillion combinations of the same feat, 2 more uses of your daily psi-like ability. Also feats that let you use multiple uses of a lousy psi-like ability to get one use of a marginally less lousy PLA. Oh and all those feats that let you turn your mindblade into, like, an anvil or an orangutan or whatever.

None of the powers I found to be particularly useful. What psionics needed was emulation of basic arcane spells if it were to fill that role, but mechanically they don't want it stepping on the arcanist's toes so instead we get more blasty stuff. Hooray. And yes Damp Power is too good, so in the same book they nerf the crap out of some arguably overpowered powers from XPH and hand us new broken toys.

I've bought a wide variety of the 3.5 splatbooks and CP is the only one I ever got rid of. It has the least of value of any roleplaying book I've ever bought (I'd graciously give it a 1 out of 10) and achieves this by destroying both the power balance and the flavor of 3.5 psionics. No freaking thank you.


I'm sorry, but the Lurk and the Psychic Rogie were absolutely nothing like one another - unless you count that fact that both were sneaky, that's about all they had in common.

Classes - I don't have an issue with the 'clerical' aspect of psionics; the idea that belief is a viable method of accessing psionic power is fine by me, and it re-creates some powers missing since 1E (healing, for example). Psionics is an 'alternate magic system' after all, so having equivelents of a cleric and paladin didn't seem so bad an idea to me.

Feats - some useful, some not I agree, but things like Enervation Endurance and Privileged Energy were very useful. Changing your mind-blade was a plus, I though them a good option to have. Except for the orang-utan, I felt that was unecessary, but some people do consider them viable melee weapons.

Powers - plenty of non-blasty powers there as well, I love Dimension Hop, and there are a number of defensive powers and buffs in there as well ... only a minority of the new powers were blasty ones. I don't hold that psionics has to emulate every arcane spell, magic and psionics are different in some ways. Psionics will do some things better than magic, magic will do some things better than psionics.

I'm not saying it's brilliant, but it's as much use to me as any other Complete book.


Dabbler wrote:

I'm sorry, but the Lurk and the Psychic Rogie were absolutely nothing like one another - unless you count that fact that both were sneaky, that's about all they had in common.

Classes - I don't have an issue with the 'clerical' aspect of psionics; the idea that belief is a viable method of accessing psionic power is fine by me, and it re-creates some powers missing since 1E (healing, for example). Psionics is an 'alternate magic system' after all, so having equivelents of a cleric and paladin didn't seem so bad an idea to me.

Feats - some useful, some not I agree, but things like Enervation Endurance and Privileged Energy were very useful. Changing your mind-blade was a plus, I though them a good option to have. Except for the orang-utan, I felt that was unecessary, but some people do consider them viable melee weapons.

Powers - plenty of non-blasty powers there as well, I love Dimension Hop, and there are a number of defensive powers and buffs in there as well ... only a minority of the new powers were blasty ones. I don't hold that psionics has to emulate every arcane spell, magic and psionics are different in some ways. Psionics will do some things better than magic, magic will do some things better than psionics.

I'm not saying it's brilliant, but it's as much use to me as any other Complete book.

I DO have a problem with the clerical aspect of psionics because it goes against the entire flavor and tone of psionics. The lurk is marginally different at best from the psychic rogue. Medium base attack, good skills, sneak attack, psy-warrior like progression of powers/pp, etc. Lurk is more malleable, sure, but in the end it's a weak class in concept and execution.

You either have to say, hey psionics is different and I'm okay with that, or you have to say psionics is just a different way of doing magic and therefore you need a psychic cleric and psychic paladin as well as psionic invisibility and shrink item. In the end the other first run of complete books (Warrior, Divine, Arcane, Adventurer) had about a thousand times more useful content and didn't ruin an entire previous book.

Clearly we disagree, but the consensus among people who are fans of psionics is that CP wasn't worth the trees killed to print it.


Lokai wrote:
wasnt there a group was trying to pathfinderize psionics? i was almost sure i read that somewhere.

Dreamscarred Press is currently running an "open testing" of psionics in PF. Head on over there to see what they currently have going on. :)


I'm happy to agree to disagree on this one. I have spoken to people who liked and disliked it, and I wouldn't go so far as to say there was a consensus one way or the other.

I do disagree about the tone of psionics, though - anything that focuses the power of the mind in one way or another is psionics. Belief, be it in a philosophy or a deity, can do this.


@OP: Word from Paizo (James) suggests Paizo itself will do Psionic classes at some point, probably connected with (South Asian analogue) Vudra or the "Green Planet" Castrovel. But Paizo's aim is to produce mechanics that can be used in their own APs by people with only the core rules, i.e. stat blocks that are self-explanatory extensions of core rules concepts, in other words tying in more closely with the Vancian spell-slot system, and probably just using spells as-is rather than differently named powers that work identically to, or similar to, existing spells. Given that UA Spellpoints work fine with PRPG Casters (some tweaking needed for Classes whose Spellcasting progression changed), they should work likewise for Paizo's Psions. if you like that approach.

As mentioned, there's another publisher (Dreamscarred) working on their own PRPG-compatable class which will hew much more closely to the 3.5/XPH approach (compared to Paizo's own Psionics), but this won't be appearing in Pathfinder/Golarion material, Bestiaries, and the like. If you're using 3.x campaign settings with Psionics (e.g. Eberron), Dreamscarred's "update" will probably be the easiest way to convert such setting material into a PRPG rules environment (i.e., if you want to use published NPCs/Monsters with 3.5 Psionic powers, DS' update will probably alot more direct 1:1 update than Paizo's approach to Psionics). Or that's my take on things... Certainly it seems the likeliest outcome if DS wants to create an actual niche for it's product vs. Paizo's own Campaign Setting and Bestiary-supported take on Psionics. I don't participate much in feedback for DS, because I'm more interested in Paizo's approach than DS', and it doesn't seem as if that perspective is welcomed (which makes sense, if they took the same approach as Paizo itself, their product would have no reason to exist once Paizo's Psion is done, while something allowing better 3.5/XPH compatability at least has some niche)


Quandary wrote:
@OP: Word from Paizo (James) suggests Paizo itself will do Psionic classes at some point, probably connected with (South Asian analogue) Vudra or the "Green Planet" Castrovel. But Paizo's aim is to produce mechanics that can be used in their own APs by people with only the core rules, i.e. stat blocks that are self-explanatory extensions of core rules concepts, in other words tying in more closely with the Vancian spell-slot system, and probably just using spells as-is rather than differently named powers that work identically to, or similar to, existing spells. Given that UA Spellpoints work fine with PRPG Casters (some tweaking needed for Classes whose Spellcasting progression changed), they should work likewise for Paizo's Psions. if you like that approach.

Sorry ... psionics is just not like that, although I can understand why they are doing it I can't see any psionics fans liking it. As a result, I can see this causing a lot of problems if a psionics fan wants to take a psionic character in a Pathfinder game, with heated debate on which rules to use.

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