Specifically, for the barbarian, but this probably applies to other characters. Myself and others have complained that the barbarian has a conundrum for it's ability scores. It obviously wants strength, and its class features seem to largely push it towards constitution as its secondary score. But without heavy armor it feels like you need to have a decent dex to not get killed. And that cuts into your speed, which is rough if you're a dwarf who didn't take unburdened for example.
I'm pleasantly surprised to say I think those fears may be misplaced.
I have such a character in my Part 4 Doomsday Dawn party. A dwarf with 18 Con, wearing a chain shirt with only 12 dex. His player opted for maximum dwarf mobility over AC. She's newer, and optimization was less important than character concept. But with toughness and mountain stoutness the barbarian wound up with 172 HP, with an additional 13 temporary HP every rage. Which doesn't seem like it should make a huge difference-- it's only about 18 permanent HP over another martial with the same feat investment who could wind up in heavy armor and thus get hit less. The temporary HP is another 13, and raging resistance MAY take 4 damage off any given hit. It doesn't seem like it should matter.
Until you start fighting pretty out there creatures. Stuff that targets saves or just deals automatic damage. Or a boss monster who seriously out levels you and who laughs at your AC bonus no matter how high it is. or a fight that lasts long enough for multiple rage cycles. Suddenly, the barbarian's staying power begins to show. In my game, the barbarian was still swinging when the Paladin and Fighter were knocked out or at single digit HP. All those little advantages collectively can make up for a lot. If you're taking lots of little attacks, your resistance has more opportunity to shine, and if its one big strike AC may not matter.
It also creates an interesting tanking dynamic. While the fighter and paladin have reaction to keep opponents from moving away or striking allies, or even reducing their damage, the barbarian lacks such tools. But it also has less need for them. In my experience enemies are less likely to target you if they realize your AC makes it a waste. They don't have trouble hitting the barbarian. And between doing the most damage per strike, the biggest potential reach, and the best mobility options outside of the monk, you can't really ignore them.
The other nice thing is that Treat Wounds means your Barbarian is no longer costing the party additional resources to get patched up after the battle, just time. Which also feels appropriate for a class that fatigues itself so much-- they just need a little break after a long fight.
So go out there and take it on the chin, you bloody savages! Bonus points if you can figure out a way to make lighting yourself on fire a viable combat strategy.
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I do very much like "temp HP pools that refill" and "damage mitigation" as cornerstones of defense as opposed to "just AC".
I'd like to see these kinds of things available to more people, give me an "Iron Body Stance" for monks or something.
Probably not quite what you are after but I feel like Wholeness of Body is pretty good for temporary HP tanking on a Monk. 1 action heightened Heal on a d10 class? Heck yeah. Way better than the piece of junk that was PF1 WoB.
It certainly feels like a good option on a strength build that lags behind on dex.
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Some people are probably going to get 4e PTSD just by reading this, but I do think TTRPGS can learn some things from the video-game counterparts, an one of those things that PF2 has being doing pretty well IMO is the subject of this topic.
Let's pick WoW as an example just for the extra salt. I don't think aggro as a mechanic does nor should work in a tabletop RPG, but tanks in WoW each have their unique way of "being tanky". Warriors have really high defenses and can block attacks. Paladins have a lot of mitigation and some self-healing. Druids (bear form) just have a ton of health. Monks are very evasive and can delay the damage they take. Death Knights have a lot of lifesteal and self-healing.
I honestly find something like that a lot more interesting than having different ways of stacking a lot of AC. I love the path PF2 is taking in this regard and would like to see more.
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[...]Warriors have really high defenses and can block attacks. Paladins have a lot of mitigation and some self-healing. Druids (bear form) just have a ton of health. Monks are very evasive and can delay the damage they take. Death Knights have a lot of lifesteal and self-healing.
I honestly find something like that a lot more interesting than having different ways of stacking a lot of AC. I love the path PF2 is taking in this regard and would like to see more.
I totally agree! A lot of my favorite characters in PF1 were ones that had really unusual defenses (often accompanied by terrible AC). A swashbuckler who had lots of parry and reposition mechanics, a ninja who spent a lot of time moving between stealth and being invisible, and an arcane archer whose defenses weren't really that great but who responded to any spells or attacks targeting her with waves of retaliatory death. Despite those super cool characters I always found that it took a lot of work and planning to make characters like that effective, so I was very excited when I saw that the design team was really leaning into giving different classes different ways to do things, even when they're trying to fill the same basic role in the group. A barbarian front-lining for the party does it significantly differently than a fighter or a paladin, which I've really enjoyed.
Some people are probably going to get 4e PTSD just by reading this, but I do think TTRPGS can learn some things from the video-game counterparts, an one of those things that PF2 has being doing pretty well IMO is the subject of this topic.
Let's pick WoW as an example just for the extra salt. I don't think aggro as a mechanic does nor should work in a tabletop RPG, but tanks in WoW each have their unique way of "being tanky". Warriors have really high defenses and can block attacks. Paladins have a lot of mitigation and some self-healing. Druids (bear form) just have a ton of health. Monks are very evasive and can delay the damage they take. Death Knights have a lot of lifesteal and self-healing.
I honestly find something like that a lot more interesting than having different ways of stacking a lot of AC. I love the path PF2 is taking in this regard and would like to see more.
As an anectode, towards the end of the Burning Crusade expansion Rogues could stack so much dodge to be able to ignore any melee attack coming from their front, even from endgame bosses.
Having a Rogue tank Illidan in melee phases made everything easier because they wouldn't require any healing; they only needed a bit of time to build their aggro and keep the boss on themselves afterwards.Then, diminishing returns were introduced because Rogues were not meant to tank. I did it anyway in the following expansion with a very creative build, but I could only hold the line in dungeons, not raids.
Then, years later, I joined a raid where both tanks were... not much competent. There was one boss where avoiding special attacks was mandatory, and when they both failed and ended up dead, I picked it up and with an incredible work from the healers I stood against it until victory. I really felt like a boss that time.
Then, there were those occasional times when in the final phase of a boss fight your tanks are overwhelmed and go down when you just need another 10-15 seconds to finish off the enemy. I loved popping Evasion and dodging everything as long as I could.
Yeah, I love WoW Rogue!
Sorry for the OT :D
Interesting observation. I kind of agree, but my players love glass-jaw characters with high defenses and low hp. I worry a bit about that. But the observation about self-heals on the monk is very interesting and might be a way out of the conundrum.
Healing in the playtest is VERY different from healing in PF1, and even more so with Treat Wounds. Combat healing is much more important and between-combat healing relegated to a separate resource (time and not rolling 1s) from combat healing. Con was actually not a very important stat for a warrior class until Treat Wounds came along; now it is.