Unchained Skills and Feats

Thursday, April 9, 2015

If classes are the main chassis of a character, skills and feats are its nuts and bolts. When they let us designers loose in Pathfinder Unchained, it's only natural that we wanted to play around with how the nuts and bolts attach, and even try changing the shapes of those nuts and bolts entirely! In Chapters 2 and 3 of Pathfinder Unchained, there are not only several daring subsystems that play with feats, there so many different options for restructuring skills that it's easy to lose yourself in all the possibilities. I've gathered some of the coolest tidbits from all those options to share with you today!

Starting with skills, the three major skills options each serve a different goal.


Illustration by Géraud Soulié

I Need More Skills to Flesh Out My Character
The background skills variant separates out certain skills as background skills as opposed to adventuring skills. It also adds some new background skills to the game, such as Lore, a very specific version of the Knowledge skill. To round it out, everyone gains 2 extra skill points to spend on background skills, no matter your class!

There Are Too Many Skills
The consolidated skills variant serves a somewhat opposite goal, combining current skill functionality into only 12 skills.

Assigning Skill Points Can Be Tough
The grouped skills variant makes it easier to assign skills, speeding up the level-up process. It also gives characters a middle tier of skills that they are pretty good at, rather than most characters having mostly max ranks, 1 rank, or no ranks.

As cool as the skill sections are, the sections involving feats are the showstoppers of today's blog!

Variant Multiclassing
Have you ever wanted to multiclass your character for flavor reasons—maybe pick up some bardic performances and versatile performance to represent the time you unexpectedly spent studying music one adventure—but then you realized that your character would be pretty significantly handicapped by taking those two levels in bard? It happens all the time, and it requires you to sacrifice something whichever choice you take. With the variant multiclassing option, you can choose a secondary class and trade out half your feats (3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th) to instead gain a progression of special abilities based on which class you pick. Want to be a fighter who dabbles in divination magic such that he always acts on the surprise round or vexes his foes with hexes? You're covered. Want to be a druid who specializes in taking out dragons as her favored enemy or flies into a rage when the natural world is in danger? You've got that too. With variant multiclassing, you can open more combinations than ever before, without delaying your access to your main class's cool new features!

Stamina System
The stamina system offers new powers for every combat feat in the RPG line. Yes, you read that right: it specifically lists every combat feat in the whole line and then grants each feat new powers. Right from the start, the system offers options for you to just give the system to fighters or to give it to all martial characters, depending on your preference. Stamina is a new resource that allows martial characters to boost themselves and use their feats in new and exciting ways. It regenerates relatively quickly between battles, allowing you to enjoy an entirely new mindset to your daily exploration; a party of stamina-users benefits from hit and run guerilla tactics, emphasizing the value of mobility, stealth, and timing (as opposed to the mindset of "buff, buff, buff, speed through!"). Stamina lets you boost your effectiveness or change the rules of the feat in your favor. These special stamina powers are called combat tricks. While I'm sure that the ways to use stamina to boost your effectiveness will be quite popular (like Critical Focus, where under certain conditions, you can increase your critical multiplier, potentially multiple times if you roll high enough), I'm a fan of the combat tricks that let you retroactively apply an effect (like declare a Stunning Fist after you already know your attack connected), and my absolute favorites are the ones that let you trick your opponent through devious tactical play. For instance, the Combat Style Master combat trick allows you to spend stamina to switch your styles as an off-turn free action. So you can lure people into attacking you and then suddenly be in Snake Style before they can even call off the attack! In the same vein, I also really enjoy the combat tricks that let you use your powers when you normally couldn't, since that has two cool psychological effects: not only can it present great "gotcha" moments, but once your enemy knows you can, say, spend stamina to take a second attack of opportunity against them from the same opportunity, it changes the way they view your threat, and it might allow you to control their actions without even spending your stamina!

Tune in next time to learn more about magic—specifically, the new scaling magic items in Pathfinder Unchained that grow with your character!

Mark Seifter
Designer

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Wait, like EVERY COMBAT FEAT that was ever in ANY Pathfinder RELEASE (excluding the 3.5 releases of course)? As in every combat feat from every adventure path, players companion, campaign setting, and even the core rules set? Holy crap, you fine people at Paizo went all out. My hats off to you folks, rock on. :D

Designer

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The Blog wrote:
The stamina system offers new powers for every combat feat in the RPG line.

And trust me, that's already a lot of content.

Turns out, Ultimate Combat had a ton of combat feats. Whod've expected it?


Rage point Barbarian? *hopeful*

Liberty's Edge

I desperately want to know more about the stamina options, but the variant multiclassing stuff sounds awesome, and wasn't even on my radar...

With the combat tricks, though, I worry a bit about even further pigeon-holing the fighter into a only-combat-all-the-time role. Also, since saves are one of the things you have to address with any fighter build, how would combat feats impact them?

Scarab Sages

Seifter wrote:
every combat feat in the RPG line

emphasis mine. doesn't look like all the AP, PC, CS etc lines will be in there, just the RPG line (CRB, Advanced Player's Guide, etc.).

The stamina system sounds deviously fun to add to bad guys!


Oh my this is exciting.


That variant multiclassing seems very interesting!


Right, but what does that mean exactly? Is the RPG line "every book" or is it "every one of the core line" (The Advanced and Ultimate whatsits), or somewhere in between?

Edit: It appears several people have posted before me.

Sovereign Court

variant multiclassing, we had thousands of option before...now we have millions or even billions of option if I am what I am reading is correct.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

this looks interesting

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Rynjin wrote:
Right, but what does that mean exactly? Is the RPG line "every book" or is it "every one of the core line" (The Advanced and Ultimate whatsits), or somewhere in between?

I assume they mean everything covered under this.

Designer

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Rynjin wrote:
Right, but what does that mean exactly? Is the RPG line "every book" or is it "every one of the core line" (The Advanced and Ultimate whatsits), or somewhere in between?

There isn't a line called the "core line." Do you mean the Pathfinder RPG line? Each line has the name of the line at the top of the book. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line says "Pathfinder Rolepaying Game" up there.

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

I look forward to seeing the scaled magic items! I know Owen did some stuff like that in his Relics of the Godlings books, so I'm curious if he had a hand in that section :)


Then the obvious concern would be as new feats are added in upcoming releases, will they also be given combat tricks?

Liberty's Edge

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Will future releases in the RPG line include combat tricks for the feats therein?

Lantern Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16

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Mark Seifter wrote:


The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line says "Pathfinder Rolepaying Game" up there.

Except for my awesome copy of the Advanced Class Guide! :)


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I was mildly interested before, but now I'm really interested. :)


"Variant Multiclassing
Have you ever wanted to multiclass your character for flavor reasons—maybe pick up some bardic performances and versatile performance to represent the time you unexpectedly spent studying music one adventure—but then you realized that your character would be pretty significantly handicapped by taking those two levels in bard? It happens all the time, and it requires you to sacrifice something whichever choice you take. With the variant multiclassing option, you can choose a secondary class and trade out half your feats (3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th) to instead gain a progression of special abilities based on which class you pick. Want to be a fighter who dabbles in divination magic such that he always acts on the surprise round or vexes his foes with hexes? You're covered. Want to be a druid who specializes in taking out dragons as her favored enemy or flies into a rage when the natural world is in danger? You've got that too. With variant multiclassing, you can open more combinations than ever before, without delaying your access to your main class's cool new features!"

THANK YOU! I was hoping to get something that isn't screwing my primary class :D


Oh my.

The skills and multiclassing variant alone have me very interested. The stamina system sounds like a fantastic parralel to the magic system of buff buff buff.

Already got gears turning for good methods of supporting such a playstyle with magic.

Designer

7 people marked this as a favorite.
JiCi wrote:

"Variant Multiclassing

Have you ever wanted to multiclass your character for flavor reasons—maybe pick up some bardic performances and versatile performance to represent the time you unexpectedly spent studying music one adventure—but then you realized that your character would be pretty significantly handicapped by taking those two levels in bard? It happens all the time, and it requires you to sacrifice something whichever choice you take. With the variant multiclassing option, you can choose a secondary class and trade out half your feats (3rd, 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th) to instead gain a progression of special abilities based on which class you pick. Want to be a fighter who dabbles in divination magic such that he always acts on the surprise round or vexes his foes with hexes? You're covered. Want to be a druid who specializes in taking out dragons as her favored enemy or flies into a rage when the natural world is in danger? You've got that too. With variant multiclassing, you can open more combinations than ever before, without delaying your access to your main class's cool new features!"

THANK YOU! I was hoping to get something that isn't screwing my primary class :D

Yup, I'm excited about that too! Don't get me wrong, half your feats is also a lot of feats. But the stuff you get includes class features you often couldn't get otherwise. Also, I feel like anything that uses a lot of feats to potentially give you out of combat stuff is a big win for a fighter, who actually has so many combat feats from class features that he can afford it (compare to, say, a paladin, who would have noticeable delays in archery without those feats). And anything that gives cool things that are particularly good for a fighter is a good thing in my book.


This all sounds super interesting. I was saying yesterday that I'd hold off buying Unchained until the moment one of my GMs says "go" for something in it, but now I'm very tempted to buy it even before that (possibly) happens.

Silver Crusade

I am quite curious, how and if anything from that post could be made PFS legal.


That multiclassing has raised my interest in this book to whole new levels.

Sovereign Court

Seriously fighter are going to have a field a day, throw a bunch of feats away to get Bard Performances? Favored enemies? Divination school magic power? Man this is way too awesome.


So I feel that the variant multiclassing and the change in how skills work will greatly help the fighter. The fighter gets so many feats that it's kinda easy to do the variant multiclassing, which can be taken for unique out of combat tools. And then the skills will either make his points go further or he'll get creative in is flavor skills.

Dark Archive

*grabby hands for variant multiclassing and Background Skills*

Grand Lodge

MFW reading this post

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I am quite curious, how and if anything from that post could be made PFS legal.

Going to repost this for anyone else who is curious about this.

Michael Brock wrote:

I've received all three reports from the three VO teams that have made suggestions on how to implement the book into PFS. The PFS team here at Paizo has taken our thoughts, as well as the recommendations of the VO teams, and we have formulated a plan of how we think things should work.

As John mentioned above, we will let you know what the final decision is closer to the release date.

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I am quite curious, how and if anything from that post could be made PFS legal.

I'm curious about what sort of obstacles you see these options presenting. First glance doesn't seem to reveal anything significantly problematic...


Mark Seifter wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Right, but what does that mean exactly? Is the RPG line "every book" or is it "every one of the core line" (The Advanced and Ultimate whatsits), or somewhere in between?
There isn't a line called the "core line." Do you mean the Pathfinder RPG line? Each line has the name of the line at the top of the book. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line says "Pathfinder Rolepaying Game" up there.

I don't own every book (far from it) and most of the ones I do own are the big releases (and all PDFs), so I assumed all of the books released for Pathfinder had that.

Designer

Scavion wrote:

Oh my.

The skills and multiclassing variant alone have me very interested. The stamina system sounds like a fantastic parralel to the magic system of buff buff buff.

Already got gears turning for good methods of supporting such a playstyle with magic.

Yeah, I was considering it too. You'd basically cut down drastically on minute per level buffs and focus on using scouting and skills to bring each fight to a more optimal time. Even better if you can force the fight to a place of your choosing (not possible if you're rushing) and prepare it ahead of time with spells like stone shape.

Contributor

Oh my god ... this sounds AMAZING.

Now, question about the multiclassing stuff; if I only want a few levels of abilities, do I have to trade ALL my feats, or can I be like, "I want to give up feat #3 and #7, and then I've had enough.


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Mark Seifter wrote:
Scavion wrote:

Oh my.

The skills and multiclassing variant alone have me very interested. The stamina system sounds like a fantastic parralel to the magic system of buff buff buff.

Already got gears turning for good methods of supporting such a playstyle with magic.

Yeah, I was considering it too. You'd basically cut down drastically on minute per level buffs and focus on using scouting and skills to bring each fight to a more optimal time. Even better if you can force the fight to a place of your choosing (not possible if you're rushing) and prepare it ahead of time with spells like stone shape.

I feel like this might force a bit of a conflict into the party, honestly.

Many of the 6 level classes (which, near as I can tell, are some of the most popular) rely on minute/level buff to function at full steam. Whereas previously everyone was on the same page, I can see now half the party wanting to push on while their buffs are up and the other half wanting to rest to restore Stamina.

Designer

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Chess Pwn wrote:
So I feel that the variant multiclassing and the change in how skills work will greatly help the fighter. The fighter gets so many feats that it's kinda easy to do the variant multiclassing, which can be taken for unique out of combat tools. And then the skills will either make his points go further or he'll get creative in is flavor skills.

You've picked up on a subtle underlying principle: Giving everyone more skill points helps the fighter most because it has fewer, and gaining a flat amount is comparatively better for the one with fewest. Similarly, spending feats for awesome stuff helps the fighter most because he has most and thus loses the least. So while the stamina system may have been the one everyone knew about before the blog, there are many different ways to give cool things for fighters ;)

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Maps Subscriber
Shisumo wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I am quite curious, how and if anything from that post could be made PFS legal.
I'm curious about what sort of obstacles you see these options presenting. First glance doesn't seem to reveal anything significantly problematic...

Coexistence: Having stamina points and combat tricks without drawbacks and without parity on NPCs seems at first speculation to give a big boost to combat feat users...

Similar to the Words of Power and Action point systems, they're optional and may not fit well into a global campaign.

Designer

Alexander Augunas wrote:

Oh my god ... this sounds AMAZING.

Now, question about the multiclassing stuff; if I only want a few levels of abilities, do I have to trade ALL my feats, or can I be like, "I want to give up feat #3 and #7, and then I've had enough.

You are in for a penny, in for a pound. You'll have to wait a few weeks to see all the specifics!

Designer

Rynjin wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Scavion wrote:

Oh my.

The skills and multiclassing variant alone have me very interested. The stamina system sounds like a fantastic parralel to the magic system of buff buff buff.

Already got gears turning for good methods of supporting such a playstyle with magic.

Yeah, I was considering it too. You'd basically cut down drastically on minute per level buffs and focus on using scouting and skills to bring each fight to a more optimal time. Even better if you can force the fight to a place of your choosing (not possible if you're rushing) and prepare it ahead of time with spells like stone shape.

I feel like this might force a bit of a conflict into the party, honestly.

Many of the 6 level classes (which, near as I can tell, are some of the most popular) rely on minute/level buff to function at full steam. Whereas previously everyone was on the same page, I can see now half the party wanting to push on while their buffs are up and the other half wanting to rest to restore Stamina.

I'm not seeing it as a bad thing when more viable options open up and allow the party to carefully weigh the pros and cons on a case by case basis. More good options in play, more tough decisions, leads to gameplay that most of the experienced players I know find the most thought-provoking and rewarding. If a character has both those sorts of buffs and stamina, you may be weighing the balance even within the same character. And it might lead to compromise: "Alright guys. We wanted to search the room anyway, and I could use 5 stamina so I can do my best trick if needed, so let's take a 2 minute breather so we still have some time left on those buffs."

Liberty's Edge

TetsujinOni wrote:
Shisumo wrote:
Sebastian Hirsch wrote:
I am quite curious, how and if anything from that post could be made PFS legal.
I'm curious about what sort of obstacles you see these options presenting. First glance doesn't seem to reveal anything significantly problematic...
Coexistence: Having stamina points and combat tricks without drawbacks and without parity on NPCs seems at first speculation to give a big boost to combat feat users...

Why would the NPCs necessarily not have the same abilities? The system as it's described here seems like it would be seamless - if you have Combat Feat X, you get the combat trick(s) that come with that, poof!, no modification needed. If the PCs have combat tricks for their feats, as far as I can tell the NPCs should automatically get them as well.

Designer

Rynjin wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Right, but what does that mean exactly? Is the RPG line "every book" or is it "every one of the core line" (The Advanced and Ultimate whatsits), or somewhere in between?
There isn't a line called the "core line." Do you mean the Pathfinder RPG line? Each line has the name of the line at the top of the book. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line says "Pathfinder Rolepaying Game" up there.
I don't own every book (far from it) and most of the ones I do own are the big releases (and all PDFs), so I assumed all of the books released for Pathfinder had that.

Aha, that makes perfect sense! Basically, the RPG line is the big books, Player Companion is the monthly 32 page player books with light setting info and fairly many rules things, Campaign Setting are the 64 page books with lots of flavor info and only few rules things; and it occasionally gets a big hardcover like Inner Sea Gods. These lines each have different people on them entirely, especially the RPG line (which is my team, the Designers, as opposed to Developers).


Mark Seifter wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Scavion wrote:

Oh my.

The skills and multiclassing variant alone have me very interested. The stamina system sounds like a fantastic parralel to the magic system of buff buff buff.

Already got gears turning for good methods of supporting such a playstyle with magic.

Yeah, I was considering it too. You'd basically cut down drastically on minute per level buffs and focus on using scouting and skills to bring each fight to a more optimal time. Even better if you can force the fight to a place of your choosing (not possible if you're rushing) and prepare it ahead of time with spells like stone shape.

I feel like this might force a bit of a conflict into the party, honestly.

Many of the 6 level classes (which, near as I can tell, are some of the most popular) rely on minute/level buff to function at full steam. Whereas previously everyone was on the same page, I can see now half the party wanting to push on while their buffs are up and the other half wanting to rest to restore Stamina.

I'm not seeing it as a bad thing when more viable options open up and allow the party to carefully weigh the pros and cons on a case by case basis. More good options in play, more tough decisions, leads to gameplay that most of the experienced players I know find the most thought-provoking and rewarding.

I think that's the best case scenario. What is probably more likely to happen is the same as what happens in the base game right now: The half of the group that wants to rest gets their way every time. Because the alternative is the half that DOESN'T want to going it alone.

It doesn't really impose a tough decision, merely an assertion from two people of "I'm staying right here", leaving the other two between a rock and a hard place (push on at half party strength, or wait and push on at half personal strength. Neither is a particularly fun option for those two.).

But maybe I'm a pessimist.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Right, but what does that mean exactly? Is the RPG line "every book" or is it "every one of the core line" (The Advanced and Ultimate whatsits), or somewhere in between?
There isn't a line called the "core line." Do you mean the Pathfinder RPG line? Each line has the name of the line at the top of the book. The Pathfinder Roleplaying Game line says "Pathfinder Rolepaying Game" up there.
I don't own every book (far from it) and most of the ones I do own are the big releases (and all PDFs), so I assumed all of the books released for Pathfinder had that.
Aha, that makes perfect sense! Basically, the RPG line is the big books, Player Companion is the monthly 32 page player books with light setting info and fairly many rules things, Campaign Setting are the 64 page books with lots of flavor info and only few rules things; and it occasionally gets a big hardcover like Inner Sea Gods. These lines each have different people on them entirely, especially the RPG line (which is my team, the Designers, as opposed to Developers).

Ahhh, gotcha. I wa snever quite clear on the Designers vs Developers distinction either, so this is good info for me. =)


Well if you wanted to push ahead then they save their stamina and "go nova" on the boss, or use it up so that the others can "go nova" on the boss having been able to save their stuff while the melee's use stamina. And the melee's will still be as effective as they are now with 0 stamina right? (or some number that you just don't go under) So stamina is just a boost to them.


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Paizo, please, stop making me want to support you with money. I am broke. I cannot afford this. I am fully aware that as part of the Pathfinder system this is all going to be open source. So why do you keep making me want to pull out my wallet and throw all of my money at the screen.

I have never enjoyed playing pure caster classes. At most I like Summoners and Bards, characters with the ability to cast but not the focus. Giving me and my martials this much buffs is a dream come true.

Designer

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rynjin wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Scavion wrote:

Oh my.

The skills and multiclassing variant alone have me very interested. The stamina system sounds like a fantastic parralel to the magic system of buff buff buff.

Already got gears turning for good methods of supporting such a playstyle with magic.

Yeah, I was considering it too. You'd basically cut down drastically on minute per level buffs and focus on using scouting and skills to bring each fight to a more optimal time. Even better if you can force the fight to a place of your choosing (not possible if you're rushing) and prepare it ahead of time with spells like stone shape.

I feel like this might force a bit of a conflict into the party, honestly.

Many of the 6 level classes (which, near as I can tell, are some of the most popular) rely on minute/level buff to function at full steam. Whereas previously everyone was on the same page, I can see now half the party wanting to push on while their buffs are up and the other half wanting to rest to restore Stamina.

I'm not seeing it as a bad thing when more viable options open up and allow the party to carefully weigh the pros and cons on a case by case basis. More good options in play, more tough decisions, leads to gameplay that most of the experienced players I know find the most thought-provoking and rewarding.

I think that's the best case scenario. What is probably more likely to happen is the same as what happens in the base game right now: The half of the group that wants to rest gets their way every time. Because the alternative is the half that DOESN'T want to going it alone.

It doesn't really impose a tough decision, merely an assertion from two people of "I'm staying right here", leaving the other two between a rock and a hard place (push on at half party strength, or wait and push on at half personal strength. Neither is a particularly fun option for those two.).

But maybe I'm a pessimist.

I can see that happening at some sadder tables, or even the push ahead folks bullying the others into going forward without stamina "Look, your stamina is an add-on and you still can do your full class without it, whereas my class demands that you rush ahead and preserve my buff."

There's even more possibilities of bullying in any game already, and really only the group as a whole can stop it. The GM can sometimes help, and sometimes not, though at least in this case, the GM can disallow stamina if it's turning one of the players into a bully.

Here's hoping everyone out there finds cooperative and supportive groups that love working together!


I'm realizing that the Variant Multiclassing could easily supplant several archetypes and prestige classes. Is this a feature, or a bug?

Designer

Eoin Maloney wrote:
I'm realizing that the Variant Multiclassing could easily supplant several archetypes and prestige classes. Is this a feature, or a bug?

It's all about giving you more options to make the concept you want. That said, this option grants select features, so in some cases, the archetypes and prestige classes likely may grant different ones.


something something pfs something legal something yes / no


It's not really "bullying" from my perspective, just a conflict of interests. It's pretty much inevitable when you make two things mutually exclusive (like things that last a minute and things that take a minute to do, that don't overlap or interact with each other in any other way).

I'll have to see the full system to make sure, of course, but I'm thinking I'll generally side with the characters who DIDN'T nova their resources, just as I usually do.

That, or maybe allow half-casters to spend Stamina to suspend the duration of their buffs while they're resting.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

ARGH! I have Unchained Pre-ordered and my subscription is all set up... Why can't I have it now? I want my instant gratification!

Seriously though, this is sounding amazeballs. I can't wait to get my hands on it and do a little jiggery-pokery on my rogue...


I have not approved your rogue!


You had me at variant monk and summoner, but I read the variant multiclassing and made a "Our Dear Mrs. Reynolds" face.

This is now a must have. With variant multiclassing one can get those any alignment paladins some folk keep clamoring about or a new take on the mystic theaurge. Or something close to them.

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