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I want to know which one would win in a fight. It seems to be common board wisdom that the Master Summoner is more powerful than the Synthesist. I'd like to see if someone can build a master summoner to beat this Synthesist:
Ajit
N Half-Elf (favored class Summoner)
Sum 6 (Synthesist)
1st: Sum; Combat Reflexes, Skill Focus (UMD), Fused Eidolon, Fused Link, Summon Monster 1, Traits (Desperate Focus, Reactionary)
2nd: Sum; Bond Senses, Evasion
3rd: Sum; Dodge
4th: Sum; Shielded Meld, +1 Con
5th: Sum; Power Attack, Summon Monster III, Eidolon +1 Con
6th: Sum; Maker's Jump 1/Day
Str: 7/22
Dex: 7/14
Con: 14/14
Int: 14
Wis: 14
Cha: 22
Init:+4 (+2 Dex, +2 trait) Speed: 30 ft Darkvision, Low Light Vision
HP: 42/40 (6d8+9/5d10+10) AC: 28 (+4 Armor (MA), +2 Dex, +8 NA, +2 shield, +1 Deflection, +1 Dodge)
Fort: +7 (+2 base, +2 Con, +2 Circ, +1 Magic) Ref: +7 (+2 base, +2 Dex, +2 Circ, +1 Magic) Will: +10 (+5 base, +2 Wis, +2 Circ, +1 Magic)
Evasion, Immune Sleep, +6 Vs Enchantments
BAB: +4/+5 CMB: +10/+11 (+4 BAB, +6 Str) CMD: 23/24 (+6 Str, +2 Dex, +4 BAB, +1 Deflection)
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) +6 (1 rank, +3 class, +2 int); Knowledge (Planes) +7 (2 ranks, +3 class, +2 int); Knowledge (Nature) +6 (1 ranks, 3 class, 2 int); Knowledge (Religion) +6 (1 ranks, 3 class, 2 int); Perception +9 (+5 ranks, +2 wis, +2 Elf) Spellcraft +10 (5 ranks, 3 class, 2 int); Use Magic Device +16 (5 ranks, 3 class, 5 cha, 3 Skill Focus)
Spells Known:
0- Daze (DC 16), Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Read Magic
1 (6/Day)- Grease (DC 17), Mage Armor, Compel Hostility (DC 17), Protection from Evil
2 (5/Day)- Haste, Evolution Surge (lesser), Summon Eidolon, Slow (DC 18)
Evolutions (10 pts): Claws (Free), Limbs Arms 2 (Free), Limbs Legs (Free), Bite II (2), Reach Bite (1), Acid Attacks (2), Improved Str (2), Trip (1), Pull Bite (1), Improved NA (1)
Attack:
Bite +11 (1d6+9+2d6 x2 and Trip +11, Pull +11) and Claws +11 (1d4+6+2d6 x2)
Gear: Headband of Alluring Cha +2 (4000), Shock Amulet of Mighty Fists (5000), Wand of Cure Light Wounds (2 PP), Wand of Rejuvinate Eidolon (2 PP), Wand of Enlarge Person (2 PP), Scroll of Invisibility x3 (3 PP), Potion of Fly x3 (6 PP), Acid Flask x10 (100), Ring of Protection +1 (2000), Belt of Str +2 (4000), Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000)
The master summoner should be 6th level, PFS available materials. 20,000 GP. If I see something that I believe could win I will run three battles at home and then post the results. Lets settle the debate once and for all.
dont't need to the synthesist loses on action economy
its 2 std 2 move 2 swift vs 1 std 1 move 1 swift
so while you have to choose between attacking or casting the regular summoner sends the eidolon to harass you in melee while he sits back and lobs spells in your face.
That synthesist doesn't even have pounce! Come on now!
The synthesist has a more complex and wonky name, it is also harder to say unless you are a snake-man. Their mastery of the arcane will therefore be much stronger.
No contest!
:D
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Since my challenge is being met with incredulity, let me point out some things
-the master summoner's eidolon is going to have 3 HD so even with toughness, it's about one full attack to take it out.
-Even Augmented his Summon Monster IIIs will need 20s to hit the Synth. So can essentially be ignored
-even a summoner with 16 con, all his favored class into HP and Toughness will only have 60 HP at level 6. The Synthesist can make short work of that.
-even if the summoner has a 22 Charisma, the synthesist still have a 50% chance to succeed on his worst save (Fort) against the summoners 2nd level spells.
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The Master Summoner is not more "powerful" then the Synthesist.
What the Master Summoner does have over the Synthesist is versatility.
A Master Summoner can take on the roles of scout, battlefield controller, DPR, and tanking.
The Synthesist on the other hand is more of a specialist. Great vs small to mid numbers of creatures and solo monsters.
The choices that the Master Summoner gives you makes it more versatile then the Synthesist, but not more "powerful".
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I will however concede that this is a very arbitrary "contest" and that in an actual group dynamic it could often be more useful to have the superior action economy and summons of the Master Summoner. In other words, as far as actual game play goes the master summoner is probably a better team player.
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The Master Summoner is not more "powerful" then the Synthesist.
What the Master Summoner does have over the Synthesist is versatility.A Master Summoner can take on the roles of scout, battlefield controller, DPR, and tanking.
The Synthesist on the other hand is more of a specialist. Great vs small to mid numbers of creatures and solo monsters.The choices that the Master Summoner gives you makes it more versatile then the Synthesist, but not more "powerful".
Word.
You seem to have stacked the deck against the master summoner in your dueling debacle although possibly unintentionally. You are at the forte of your abilities and he is just getting near his. The results of this contest will not be a surprise.
Come on, Synthesists are just no comparison to master summoners. Even when you win fights at these low-levels that does not make synthesists the better class - not at all. Compare those two at lvl10 and synthesists will be crying rivers.
I just love threads like these....
Since my challenge is being met with incredulity, let me point out some things
-the master summoner's eidolon is going to have 3 HD so even with toughness, it's about one full attack to take it out.
-Even Augmented his Summon Monster IIIs will need 20s to hit the Synth. So can essentially be ignored
-even a summoner with 16 con, all his favored class into HP and Toughness will only have 60 HP at level 6. The Synthesist can make short work of that.
-even if the summoner has a 22 Charisma, the synthesist still have a 50% chance to succeed on his worst save (Fort) against the summoners 2nd level spells.
Two words .. Aid Another
summoned monster need only hit AC10 to provide a +2 to hit or instead a +2 to AC. 1d4+1 summoned level 1 critters provides +4 to +10 of bonus, making it very hard for you to land any of your hits on primary targets (summoner or eidolon) or with the Aid's the eidolon will smash through your AC like it wasn't even there
Your synth may be able to make short work of 60HP but thats assuming you can get near the summoner and again in a short period of time a summoner can pump out minions to block you and bump his AC so that you won't be hittin anything.
No decent summoner will be using direct attack spells anyway so the DC/save factor is mute. your saves do nothing against multiple enemies.
A MSummoner need only stay away from you pump out 1d4+1 critters a round to create a mess of enemies that you won't be able to kill fast enough, plus they'll surround you and make you provoke AoO's like crazy if you try and cast anything, flanks ahoy and yeah your going down.
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Since my challenge is being met with incredulity, let me point out some things
-the master summoner's eidolon is going to have 3 HD so even with toughness, it's about one full attack to take it out.
-Even Augmented his Summon Monster IIIs will need 20s to hit the Synth. So can essentially be ignored
-even a summoner with 16 con, all his favored class into HP and Toughness will only have 60 HP at level 6. The Synthesist can make short work of that.
-even if the summoner has a 22 Charisma, the synthesist still have a 50% chance to succeed on his worst save (Fort) against the summoners 2nd level spells.Two words .. Aid Another
summoned monster need only hit AC10 to provide a +2 to hit or instead a +2 to AC. 1d4+1 summoned level 1 critters provides +4 to +10 of bonus, making it very hard for you to land any of your hits on primary targets (summoner or eidolon) or with the Aid's the eidolon will smash through your AC like it wasn't even there
Your synth may be able to make short work of 60HP but thats assuming you can get near the summoner and again in a short period of time a summoner can pump out minions to block you and bump his AC so that you won't be hittin anything.
No decent summoner will be using direct attack spells anyway so the DC/save factor is mute. your saves do nothing against multiple enemies.
A MSummoner need only stay away from you pump out 1d4+1 critters a round to create a mess of enemies that you won't be able to kill fast enough, plus they'll surround you and make you provoke AoO's like crazy if you try and cast anything, flanks ahoy and yeah your going down.
Lesser evolution surge, get wings. Unless we're in a room with 10' ceilings can stay out of reach. Can DDoor to right next to MS once per day.
Lesser evolution surge, get wings. Unless we're in a room with 10' ceilings can stay out of reach. Can DDoor to right next to MS once per day.Since my challenge is being met with incredulity, let me point out some things
-the master summoner's eidolon is going to have 3 HD so even with toughness, it's about one full attack to take it out.
-Even Augmented his Summon Monster IIIs will need 20s to hit the Synth. So can essentially be ignored
-even a summoner with 16 con, all his favored class into HP and Toughness will only have 60 HP at level 6. The Synthesist can make short work of that.
-even if the summoner has a 22 Charisma, the synthesist still have a 50% chance to succeed on his worst save (Fort) against the summoners 2nd level spells.Two words .. Aid Another
summoned monster need only hit AC10 to provide a +2 to hit or instead a +2 to AC. 1d4+1 summoned level 1 critters provides +4 to +10 of bonus, making it very hard for you to land any of your hits on primary targets (summoner or eidolon) or with the Aid's the eidolon will smash through your AC like it wasn't even there
Your synth may be able to make short work of 60HP but thats assuming you can get near the summoner and again in a short period of time a summoner can pump out minions to block you and bump his AC so that you won't be hittin anything.
No decent summoner will be using direct attack spells anyway so the DC/save factor is mute. your saves do nothing against multiple enemies.
A MSummoner need only stay away from you pump out 1d4+1 critters a round to create a mess of enemies that you won't be able to kill fast enough, plus they'll surround you and make you provoke AoO's like crazy if you try and cast anything, flanks ahoy and yeah your going down.
ummm how pray tell are you getting Ddoor ? at 6th level you don't have 3rd level spells.
as for flying totally negated by the MS summoning flyers to block you at every turn, they'll have better maneuverability as well. not to mention the MS can easily lesser evo his eidolon into a flying mount if so inclined.
I want to know which one would win in a fight. It seems to be common board wisdom that the Master Summoner is more powerful than the Synthesist. I'd like to see if someone can build a master summoner to beat this Synthesist:
** spoiler omitted **...
There is a BIG difference between 'who can win in a duel' and 'who has more to offer a party against a host of baddies'...
I mean is there prep time? If there is no way your synthesist can win.
Also you are comparing 1 level look at 7th level. You gain 1 BAB and another point or 2 of evolutions. But a MS gets SM4. Now you are in trouble, 1d3 lantern archons per summons. MS have at least 9 of those so 18 lantern archons on average. All doing 2d6 range touch attacks that go through DR.
You can't even survive the first round.
Heh - actually, he'll be summoning 1d3+1 of them, don't forget the Superior Summoning feat. And then there's Hasten.
And of course there's Invisibility as well. Remember, Summoners get Invisibility in their spell list but NOT Detect Invisibility.
They get Glitterdust, which is often good enough of a stand-in for See Invis.
But yeah, this contest is pointless, they wouldn't be fighting in a one-on-one duel.
Scrolls of dismissal are pretty cheap and summon Eidolon is a 1 round casting spell that becomes increasingly difficult if you take any damage from summon monster SLA the master summoner or his Eidolon. Summon Eidolon can also be waited out with an invisibility spell if the synth gets it off or negated with dispel magic.
Give the master summoner's Eidolon a wand/scroll of silence and some tanglefoot bags and it becomes even more difficult.
Give the master summoner's Eidolon a wand/scroll of silence and some tanglefoot bags and it becomes even more difficult.
Agreed. Wand-wielding eidolons are often left out of the equation. Master Summoner eidolons completely, actually, since the general rule of thumb is to spam SM's as fast as you can. Mine serves as the party's rogue and scout, has been using Tanglefoot bags since level 2, Wands since level 6. Its nice to be able to sit back there, he and I, both of us with wands of magic missiles and pile on to whatever my summoned creature(s) are doing.
Something else left out of this little duel - Summoners have access to all kinds of anti-eidolon spells which the Master Summoner could put to great effect, the Synthesist not so much.
A swarm of lantern archons will be after that low Touch AC of the Synth, and if they use their aid spell-like ability on each other...
MS just has to stay away and summon a swarm of lantern archons to pew pew the synth to death.
Ha, I ninja the miniscule construct of caffeinated breakfast beverages!
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Actually reviewed OP's build and realize he can't detect invis, unless I missed something in his gear. So to beat him down all you need to do is win initiative and cast invisibility. Now a level 6 MS can just casually summon monsters until there are 9 lantern archons and insta win.
So OP challenged us to build an MS to beat his synthesis. This is my build stats don't matter with my strategy, other than charisma, so 18 in that.
Human - feats Noble Scion: War, Improve Initiative, Skill Focus (Whatever arcane bloodline needs), Eldritch Heritage: Familiar Compsognathus.
Traits - Reactionary
That should get me a +5 (assuming you start only with an 18 in chr) +4 + 4 + 2 so a +15 in initiative. I'll get a circlet of persuasion and bump that up to +18. Noble Scion makes your initiative check into a charisma check.
Now my first action is invisibility.
Then I summon 9 x lantern archons while invis and just laugh at you.
Even if you get scent via lesser evo surge I'll just move 30 ft every round.
If OP goes invis too, I'll summon a direbat than glitter dust where he is.
Should win easily unless I lose initiative somehow.
The build I put up is sitting on 4000 gold (to be at the 20000 limit), plenty for a couple scrolls of see invis. Which is a 2nd level spell for a summoner.
So you win init, go invis. I cast see invis. You summon one lantern archon. I dimension door to right next to you, ignoring the lantern archon and hit you for 20 some damage and trip you. Your archon hits me for 1d6 and you either summon another while still prone or try to stand up or something. Second turn I full attack you and you are dead.
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I know this contest is completely contrived and I already said a master summoner is better for a group if only because they are so versatile compared to Synth. Also, the synth I posted is the one I actually play...wasn't built for PVP or anything. That's also why it's taking place at the "low" level of 6.
I've been playing DnD for over a decade now and I've never gotten a character past like 8th level without arbitrarily creating one at a higher level. So as far as PFS goes, we've been playing with this group since October almost every week and we're just now at level 6.
If we kicked it up to PFS's max level of 12, I'm sure a master summoner could be built easily to take down a Synthesist. However, if we took a Synthesist and a MS built for actual PFS play I think the synth still has some chance in PVP. Yeah you can try to dismiss the eidolon, but the Synth's will save is ridiculous, and his AC isn't going to go down. I actually switched up the evolutions on the 6th level build I posted because I felt my AC was too high in actual play and it was boring, so I went for bite II instead of another improved NA.
If I were to build a PVP synth it would have flight and pounce, DDoor straight up in the air as high as possible, then buff a little and fall like a full-attacking comet out of the sky onto the MS and tear him to shreds. Plus note that UMD of +really really high makes simply Silencing the MS an option as well.
Actually reviewed OP's build and realize he can't detect invis, unless I missed something in his gear. So to beat him down all you need to do is win initiative and cast invisibility. Now a level 6 MS can just casually summon monsters until there are 9 lantern archons and insta win.
So OP challenged us to build an MS to beat his synthesis. This is my build stats don't matter with my strategy, other than charisma, so 18 in that.
Human - feats Noble Scion: War, Improve Initiative, Skill Focus (Whatever arcane bloodline needs), Eldritch Heritage: Familiar Compsognathus.
Traits - Reactionary
That should get me a +5 (assuming you start only with an 18 in chr) +4 + 4 + 2 so a +15 in initiative. I'll get a circlet of persuasion and bump that up to +18. Noble Scion makes your initiative check into a charisma check.
Now my first action is invisibility.
Then I summon 9 x lantern archons while invis and just laugh at you.
Even if you get scent via lesser evo surge I'll just move 30 ft every round.
If OP goes invis too, I'll summon a direbat than glitter dust where he is.
Should win easily unless I lose initiative somehow.
The build I put up is sitting on 4000 gold (to be at the 20000 limit), plenty for a couple scrolls of see invis. Which is a 2nd level spell for a summoner.
So you win init, go invis. I cast see invis. You summon one lantern archon. I dimension door to right next to you, ignoring the lantern archon and hit you for 20 some damage and trip you. Your archon hits me for 1d6 and you either summon another while still prone or try to stand up or something. Second turn I full attack you and you are dead.
Master Summoner lesser eidolon geared for scouting spots you, Master Summon has plenty of time to get the hoarde into gear ... you lose ;)
I like challenges, and I haven't looked into Master Summoner's too much. So I'll see what I can whip up. As close as I can tell, you used a 22 point buy. I'm also not too sure what the +2 circ in your saves is from, protection from evil? You're assuming a lot by including that in the base. Also, you didn't really include any terms of the contest. I'm sure you will agree, ambushed in a city where you aren't walking around as your eidolon the synthesist is in a world of hurt from the MS. I'll postulate the combat assuming we know each others abilities, and are say, put into a ring to fight, this includes any preptime we want (Since you included your buff spells in your stats.)
Tija
N Halfling (favored class Summoner)(Swift as Shadows)
Sum 6 (Master Summoner)
1st: Sum; Improved Init, Lesser Eidolon, Life Link, Summoning Mastery I, Traits (Reactionary,Highlander)
2nd: Sum; Augment Summoning
3rd: Sum; Superior Summoning, Summoning Mastery II
4th: Sum; Shield Ally, +1 Con
5th: Sum; Dodge, Summoning Mastery III
6th: Sum; Maker's Call 1/Day
Str: 5 (-3)
Dex: 16 (+3)
Con: 14 (+2)
Int: 7 (-2)
Wis: 14 (+2)
Cha: 22 (+6)
Init:+9 (+4 Feat, +3 Dex, +2 trait) Speed: 20 ft
HP: 42 (6d8+12) AC: 16 (+3 dex, +1 dodge, +1 size, +1 deflection)
Fort: +7 (2 base, +2 con, +1 race, +2 magic) Ref: +8 (2 base, +3 dex, +1 race, +2 magic) Will: +8 (5 base, +1race, +2 magic)
+2 Vs Fear
BAB: +4 CMB: +0 (+4 BAB, -3 Str, -1size) CMD: 13 (-3 Str, +3 Dex, +4 BAB, -1size)
Skills:+2 perception;
Stealth +17 (+6 Rank, +4 size, +3 dex, +3 class skill, +1 trait (2 in hilly/rocky))(5 less penalty for stealth while moving)
Spells Known:
0- Acid Splash (DC 16), Daze (DC 16), Detect Magic, Light, Mending, Read Magic
1 (6/Day)- Grease (DC 17), Mage Armor, Protection from Evil, Summon Monster I
2 (5/Day)- Bull's Strength, Create Pit, Invisibility, Summon Swarm
Eidolon Isn't going to be used so I won't waste time on him.
Gear: Headband of Alluring Cha +2 (4000), Ring of Protection +1 (2000), Cloak of Resistance +2 (4000)
Okay, I guess I got kind of lazy at the end with equipment and the like. Basic Idea is this. Have a heard of celestial auroch's ready to go. Be invisible. Have them trample repeatedly. Drop summoned bat swarms on the synthesist also. With Augment Summoning the DC for the auroch's trample goes from 17 to 19, and if the synth enlarges they can stampede pushing it up to 21. I could get some potions of Fly also, and if things are going bad, chug one and fly off invisible. I think the aurochs would take you out however. And, as the others said, if they aren't doing it, I could always start pulling out lantern archons.
Round 1
you can have initiative do what you like
my turn
Master Summoner sits on the ground points at your alignment and asks you to explain why your attacking some random person you met on the road.
True Neutral ? not with an attitude like that :P
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I like challenges, and I haven't looked into Master Summoner's too much. So I'll see what I can whip up. As close as I can tell, you used a 22 point buy. I'm also not too sure what the +2 circ in your saves is from, protection from evil? You're assuming a lot by including that in the base. Also, you didn't really include any terms of the contest. I'm sure you will agree, ambushed in a city where you aren't walking around as your eidolon the synthesist is in a world of hurt from the MS. I'll postulate the combat assuming we know each others abilities, and are say, put into a ring to fight, this includes any preptime we want (Since you included your buff spells in your stats.)
** spoiler omitted **...
The circ bonus is from
Shielded Meld (Ex)
At 4th level, whenever the synthesist is fused with his eidolon, he gains a +2 shield bonus to his Armor Class and a +2 circumstance bonus on his saving throws.
This ability replaces shield ally.
As for 22 point buy, I looked at it again and you're right. Lower the Int to 13 to fix it. Can't believe I did that ~_~'
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Okay, rules for the fight. We are in a cube shaped arena 60' on an edge. We know we are going into combat, can see into the arena and have 3 rounds to prepare. We emerge from 10' wide doors on opposite sides of the arena from each other.
@Tarantula I will run a couple battles when I have time later and see who wins. I'll post a summary on here. I'll use your tactics as described.
Here's the corrected stats I'll use for the Synth, with actual gear to be used, and buffs included (Haste, Enlarge Person, Lesser Evo Surge Gore). Starts combat with scroll of see invis in one hand.
1st: Sum; Combat Reflexes, Skill Focus (UMD), Fused Eidolon, Fused Link, Summon Monster 1, Traits (Desperate Focus, Reactionary)
2nd: Sum; Bond Senses, Evasion
3rd: Sum; Dodge
4th: Sum; Shielded Meld, +1 Con
5th: Sum; Power Attack, Summon Monster III, Eidolon +1 Con
6th: Sum; Maker's Jump 1/Day
Str: 7/22 (24)
Dex: 7/14 (12)
Con: 14/14
Int: 13
Wis: 14
Cha: 22
Init:+4 (+2 Dex, +2 trait) Speed: 60 ft (Haste) Darkvision, Low Light Vision
HP: 42/40 (6d8+9/5d10+10) AC: 27 (+4 Armor (MA), +1 Dex, +8 NA, +2 shield, +1 Deflection, +1 Dodge, +1 Haste, -1 size)
Fort: +7 (+2 base, +2 Con, +2 Circ, +1 Magic) Ref: +7 (+2 base, +2 Dex, +2 Circ, +1 Magic) Will: +10 (+5 base, +2 Wis, +2 Circ, +1 Magic)
Evasion, Immune Sleep, +6 Vs Enchantments
BAB: +4/+5 CMB: +10/+11 (+12) (+4 BAB, +6 Str) CMD: 23/24 (25/36) (+6 Str, +2 Dex, +4 BAB, +1 Deflection)
Skills: Knowledge (Arcana) +5 (1 rank, +3 class, +1 int); Knowledge (Planes) +10 (6 ranks, +3 class, +1 int); Knowledge (Nature) +5 (1 ranks, 3 class, 1 int); Knowledge (Religion) +5 (1 ranks, 3 class, int); Perception +6 (2 ranks, +2 wis, +2 Elf) Spellcraft +5 (1 ranks, 3 class, 1 int); Use Magic Device +17 (6 ranks, 3 class, 5 cha, 3 Skill Focus)
Spells Known:
0- Daze (DC 16), Detect Magic, Light, Mage Hand, Mending, Read Magic
1 (6/Day)- Grease (DC 17), Mage Armor, Compel Hostility (DC 17), Protection from Evil
2 (5/Day)- Haste, Evolution Surge (lesser), Summon Eidolon, Slow (DC 18)
Evolutions (10 pts): Claws (Free), Limbs Arms 2 (Free), Limbs Legs (Free), Bite II (2), Reach Bite (1), Acid Attacks (2), Improved Str (2), Trip (1), Pull Bite (1), Improved NA (1)
Attack (Haste, PA included):
Bite +10/+10 (1d8+15+2d6 x2 and Trip +13, Pull +13) 15' reach, Claws +10 (1d6+11+2d6 x2) and Gore +10 (1d8+11+2d6 x2)
Gear: Headband of Alluring Cha +2 (4000), Shocking Amulet of Mighty Fists (5000), Wand of Cure Light Wounds (750), Wand of Rejuvinate Eidolon (750), Wand of Enlarge Person (750), Scroll of Invisibility x2 (300), Potion of Fly x2 (600), Acid Flask x10 (100), Ring of Protection +1 (2000), Belt of Str +2 (4000), Cloak of Resistance +1 (1000), Scroll of See Invisibility x2 (300)
Total:19650
Do keep in mind that with the ridiculous +17 stealth, you will have a hard time finding me. Then again, you've now changed the rules to be a blank 60' square. So I expect you'll say "you can't hide, there nothing to hide behind."
That's the problems with contests like these. The person designing them gets to keep adding things on to counter their perceived weaknesses. (Like you adding see invis scrolls).
As far as starting tactics/buffs, go with 2 aurochs and invisibility just cast. Move 15' stealthing without penalty from the swift as shadows and send the aurochs to trample. Depending on what your arena is made of, as long as I can get to some kind of cover I should be able to pretty much not-exist as far as you can tell.
Last tactic with the aurochs. If possible, have them end their turns blocking the path between the synth and the MS. Things to note: They don't have to charge to trample, and won't, this allows them to move forward 20', trample the synth, and move back 20' to remain in the way. With trample, you can either make an AoO or a reflex save, not both. Don't forget that auroch's are large, negating your pull bite. Last, remember that creatures can only provoke for movement once per turn. Let me know how it turns out, I'm kind of curious now.
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Do keep in mind that with the ridiculous +17 stealth, you will have a hard time finding me. Then again, you've now changed the rules to be a blank 60' square. So I expect you'll say "you can't hide, there nothing to hide behind."
That's the problems with contests like these. The person designing them gets to keep adding things on to counter their perceived weaknesses. (Like you adding see invis scrolls).
As far as starting tactics/buffs, go with 2 aurochs and invisibility just cast. Move 15' stealthing without penalty from the swift as shadows and send the aurochs to trample. Depending on what your arena is made of, as long as I can get to some kind of cover I should be able to pretty much not-exist as far as you can tell.
Last tactic with the aurochs. If possible, have them end their turns blocking the path between the synth and the MS. Things to note: They don't have to charge to trample, and won't, this allows them to move forward 20', trample the synth, and move back 20' to remain in the way. With trample, you can either make an AoO or a reflex save, not both. Don't forget that auroch's are large, negating your pull bite. Last, remember that creatures can only provoke for movement once per turn. Let me know how it turns out, I'm kind of curious now.
MS can stealth all it wants.
Alright, here's how it went:
Initiative: MS won
Round 1:
MS- Summons another Aurochs and moves 15' while invisible and stealthing, The aurochs ready an action to trample Synth
Synth- Cast lesser evo surge (scent), move out 40' to within 5' of the three aurochs. Their action triggers
Aurochs- the three of them stampede, Synth chooses to take AOOs. Hits it with his bite on AC 22 for 24 damage killing one. Second attack hits AC 14 doing 28 damage and killing aurochs #2. Third (and final AOO for the round) hits AC 17 for 27 damage killing Aurochs #3.
Round 2:
MS- Summons another aurochs next to the synth. Moves another 15' into the NW corner of the arena (23 stealth check).
Aurochs- Trample over synth and then back to protect its master. Synth takes reflex save gets an 11. Takes 20 damage.
Synth- Moves past the Aurochs taking an AOO. The Aurochs hits AC 22, missing. Using scent the Synth moves towards the MS to within 5 feet of him. Takes a bit attack at his square. Hits AC 26 and but misses due to the 50% miss chance.
Round 3:
MS- Casts create pit defensively. Gets an 18 on his concentration, failing. Rolls acrobatics to move past synth, gets an 18 failing. He provokes an AOO which hits AC 24 and passes the miss chance. It deals 26 damage and trips the MS with a 19 CMB roll.
Aurochs- Tramples the synth, he takes an AOO. Hits AC 22 for 25 damage killing Aurochs #4.
Synth- 5' steps away from MS. Casts See Invis from the scroll he's been holding.
Round 4:
MS- Attempts to cast create pit defensively while prone. Gets a 20 concentration (actually rolled a 1 but that's no fun). The spell goes off and synth gets an 18 on his reflex save avoiding the pit.
Synth- 5' away from the sloped edge of the pit diagonally towards the MS. Bite 1 hits AC 12 and does 24 damage. The other attacks turn MS into a bloody paste.
Conclusion is as I thought, it was no real contest. Used a significant amount of resources on the fight, but still easy. Rolls could have gone differently, but even with really bad luck I can't see the synth losing. Even in a wide open field with 10 rounds to prepare I think the MS would still lose thoroughly.
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Sooooo did you actually see the enemy caster through the invisibility because you do know you can't make attacks of opportunity on people with total concealment. So you know the enemy caster could have just walked past you without any problems and cast whatever they wanted if you did not bypass their total concealment from invisibility.
Could have not bothered with scent and cast see invis from the beginning, but wanted to show it wasn't necessary. Scent states:
The creature detects another creature's presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If the creature moves within 5 feet (1 square) of the scent's source, the creature can pinpoint the area that the source occupies, even if it cannot be seen.
So I took the AOOs, with a 50% miss chance for concealment. I did however make a mistake in that I did not take a move action to note the direction of the scent. Whoops. Wouldn't change anything in the end. Even essentially giving the MS hide in plain sight as I did, he doesn't have a way to cover his scent. I assume there is some magic item that he could buy to cover it or something. Grant him that, how is he going to generate enough damage to kill the Synth? Running away endlessly doesn't win the fight.
MS can stealth all it wants.
Alright, here's how it went:
I will point out where you screwed up at the start, and you can go again from there. My comments in bold.
Initiative: MS won
Round 1:
MS- Summons another Aurochs and moves 15' while invisible and stealthing, Where is the stealth check for this? The aurochs ready an action to trample Synth
Synth- Cast lesser evo surge (scent), move out 40' to within 5' of the three aurochs. Their action triggers
Aurochs- the three of them stampede, Synth chooses to take AOOs. Hits it with his bite on AC 22 for 24 damage killing one. Aurochs are hp 22 (3d8+9). Except I also get augment summoning, which adds +2 per die from con, for a total of 28 health. Auroch's #1 still lives.
Second attack hits AC 14 doing 28 damage and killing aurochs #2.You also didn't break down the damage amounts. You listed your bite as 1d8+15+2d6. Celestial aurochs have resist cold, acid, and electricity 5. So the max damage possible would be 25. Average would be 19. Either way, its a 2 hit kill.
Third (and final AOO for the round) hits AC 17 for 27 damage killing Aurochs #3.Again, all 3 aurochs should still be alive.
Important thing to note: Since you took your AoO here, all 3 Tramples will hit you. That's at 2d6+11. Average will be 19 each, x3 = 57 hp. Looks like the synth loses.
Continuing on though, as maybe my auroch's get some bad rolls.
Round 2:
MS- Summons another aurochs next to the synth. Moves another 15' into the NW corner of the arena (23 stealth check).
Aurochs- Trample over synth and then back to protect its master. Synth takes reflex save gets an 11. Takes 20 damage.
Synth- Moves past the Aurochs taking an AOO. The Aurochs hits AC 22, missing. Using scent the Synth moves towards the MS to within 5 feet of him. Like you said, its a move action to note the direction of the scent. So no move and attack. Also, scent doesn't automatically negate invisibility or stealth. It still is a perception roll versus stealth. The relevant text is from the glossary for invisibility: "A creature with the scent ability can detect an invisible creature as it would a visible one." How do you detect someone who is stealthing but visible? Opposed perception roll. Takes a bit attack at his square. Hits AC 26 and but misses due to the 50% miss chance.
Ok, the rest of this I'm cutting out as with these modifications I think the fight will go rather differently. Let me know how it turns out.
Lastly, good point Gignere. Do both summoner's get 13 rounds to buff (to allow you to get your eidolon up) or are we hedging this in favor of the synth even more?
Edits: Realized I should show what happens when the aurochs live through the first set of AoO's and some formatting stuff.
Do keep in mind that with the ridiculous +17 stealth, you will have a hard time finding me. Then again, you've now changed the rules to be a blank 60' square. So I expect you'll say "you can't hide, there nothing to hide behind."
That's the problems with contests like these. The person designing them gets to keep adding things on to counter their perceived weaknesses. (Like you adding see invis scrolls).
As far as starting tactics/buffs, go with 2 aurochs and invisibility just cast. Move 15' stealthing without penalty from the swift as shadows and send the aurochs to trample. Depending on what your arena is made of, as long as I can get to some kind of cover I should be able to pretty much not-exist as far as you can tell.
Last tactic with the aurochs. If possible, have them end their turns blocking the path between the synth and the MS. Things to note: They don't have to charge to trample, and won't, this allows them to move forward 20', trample the synth, and move back 20' to remain in the way. With trample, you can either make an AoO or a reflex save, not both. Don't forget that auroch's are large, negating your pull bite. Last, remember that creatures can only provoke for movement once per turn. Let me know how it turns out, I'm kind of curious now.
MS can stealth all it wants.
Alright, here's how it went:
** spoiler omitted **...
On top of the changes Tarantula suggested you can't seriously expect a master SUMMONER to waste 2 rounds casting create pit when he could have thrown out 2 more summoned monsters or better yet 2x1d3+1 level 1 critters to block your advance, I mean common top on the list of MS priorities is to keep summons on the field by replacing them not casting a frigging pit spell against a creature who even if they fall in can clearly get out with ease.
Either you play both characters to their maximum potential or this is a pointless exercise.
How bout this for 3 round prep
Summoner has Empower spell like ability feat = empowered summon monster 3 3/day and superior summoning and a rod of lesser empower
So assuming the low side of averages
1d4+2 +50% = 6 , then times 3 = 18
So now Summoner has 18 SM1 critters lets say riding dogs the dogs bubblewrap the Master summoner with 8 completely surrounding him and the other 10 forming a second rank line around them with 1 sq space between them.
The whole moves as a pack with any dog under threat of AoO from synth using a withdraw action to move with the group. Limiting you to 1 attack per round
MS then casts another summon monster 3 as a spell empowered with the rod for another 6 dogs to complete the 2 rank bubblewrap a total of 24 dogs and then begins to throw out single level 3 summons of latern archons that take up position floating above the pack
If your not flying the lantern archons simply move out of reach and fire at will, if you start flying they rejoin the pack floating just above the pack covering the MS from the sky.
As this point its just attrition, you move in an kill a dog the pack withdraws away, even with reach you can't reach the MS behind 2 ranks so he can move and cast every round. Any dog that doesn't withdraw has a standing readied action to Aid Another on the MS to grant a +2AC bonus. so even if you manage to find a gap and attack the MS he gets an instant +16 or better AC bump pushing his AC to 37.
Any round where dogs don't need replacing an increasing number of lantern archons are summoned and take 50/50 pot shots at your touch AC. Lets say 3. Each round they fire 6 rays at you 3 land and you take 3d6dmg
round 2 you take 1d6 = 3dmg
round 3 you take 2d6 = 7dmg
round 4 you take 3d6 = 10dmg
and then 2 rounds later on round 6 your down , round 7 or 8 if a dog top up is required.
Look I realize you could have cast see invisibility to start and I also realize the opponent could have summoned lantern archons. However neither of those happened. What did happen is the rules were violated. If the rules are not going to be properly followed then there is no reason to even start talking about strategy based on the rules.
All I can hear when I read this "Yeah, but you didn't actually CAST THE SPELL so now there's ogres, ok?!"
That AOO was not the turning point of the demonstration. The fact that he was smashing through summons at a breakneck pace was. Every table makes rules mistakes, we accept them as part of the fact we are human and move on with what is pertinent.
This is not a fair fight, because even with 3 rounds to prep you already have 10 extra rounds to prep. Why does the synth get to start with his Eidolon suit but the MS doesn't start with 10 summons?
Because an "Eidolon suit" is an unlimited duration buff that remains as long as you stay conscious, or permanently till you die if you take the appropriate feats. Starting a "PVP Match" with a synthesist who isn't using their Eidolon ability is about as silly as starting one with a fighter who isn't wearing their armor.
That's a good idea for the next PVP battleground though. Everyone starts buck naked with their gear in a bag, how many actions are you going to spend putting it on before you start going to town!
Might actually give the Casties a chance against AM BARBARIAN.
This is not a fair fight, because even with 3 rounds to prep you already have 10 extra rounds to prep. Why does the synth get to start with his Eidolon suit but the MS doesn't start with 10 summons?Because an "Eidolon suit" is an unlimited duration buff that remains as long as you stay conscious, or permanently till you die if you take the appropriate feats. Starting a "PVP Match" with a synthesist who isn't using their Eidolon ability is about as silly as starting one with a fighter who isn't wearing their armor.
I think equipment is a equipped is a given, but Summoning an Eidolon requires a ritual that takes 10 rounds. It's essentially saying that the Synth gets that leeway at the start of the day, but the MS is limited to 3 rounds before the fight to use his primary class ability.
The environment has effectively limited the MS main class ability while giving a free ride to the synth along with choosing a 60'x60' battle ground. Further, scrolls of see invisibility are added based around the assumption the MS has a method of picking up invisibility and readying it hand which smacks of prior knowledge of the build the synth is up against.
I'd say starting with all of the Master Summoners summons out is fair given that they last 60 rounds and it only takes 9 to bring out all of them.
That AOO was not the turning point of the demonstration. The fact that he was smashing through summons at a breakneck pace was. Every table makes rules mistakes, we accept them as part of the fact we are human and move on with what is pertinent.
Except even that, was a misapplication of the rules. It took 2 hits per summon to take them down, which results in the synth losing the fight. Summon's are not made to endure. They are there to be swatted back into their home plane and soak an attack. If they get to do some damage at the same time, fantastic. Its a mock combat. To be truely fair, the contest should have been named first, with 2 people making 6th level summoner's without seeing each others sheets. Then play it out on open rpg or something via skype. The problem with written challenges, is we can take hours to analyze exactly what one weakness exists in a specific strategy and then design against that. Unfortunately, this means either the challenge will be changed each round, or the setup will be changed each round (by adding see invis scrolls).
I think I showed that using his synth as posted, it is possible for a master summoner to have a decent fighting chance in a mock combat. Which was the point.
If the OP is so self assured he should face the full potential of the MS, instead of setting up a contrived battle ground, a prep period where he can start with his Eidolon suit and 3 rounds of buffing whereas the MS can only start with 3 summons and no buffs.
I think equipment is a equipped is a given, but Summoning an Eidolon requires a ritual that takes 10 rounds. It's essentially saying that the Synth gets that leeway at the start of the day, but the MS is limited to 3 rounds before the fight to use his primary class ability.
Why is the "equipment a given", but the Eidolon is different?
Yes, the Synthesist "gets that leeway". It's called "being part of your class". The Synthesist can have his "Eidolon suit" on all day, it has no duration other than "remaining conscious". The summoner can't have his summons out all day. That is just the way it is.
I'll freely admit there are many things silly and contrived about this particular "battleground", but this is not one of them. There is zero difference between the Synthesist taking 10 rounds to summon their Eidolon at the start of the day and the Fighter taking 4 MINUTES AND ALSO THE ASSUMPTION THEY HAVE HELP TO PUT IT ON, to put on full plate!
Except even that, was a misapplication of the rules.
Alright, I was going to let it go, but fine, if you insist:
Be that as it may, I will also counter that you are misinterpreting the spirit of the summon monster rules as it pertains to creatures like Aurochs.
The Aurochs ready an action to trample Synth:
Summons do not ready actions unless you have the capability to instruct them by communication in a language they understand. At INT 2, they do not understand any languages. The Aurochs actions are to advance to the best of their ability, in as direct a path as possible, and engage the Synthesist with Gore. This is an exceptionally common mistake that people make with Master Summoners that gives them more power than they have. They play their summons like additional PCs, with a full "player AI". They don't do that. If they don't have an int score, or you can't communicate, their actions are:
1) If in melee, full attack.
2) If not in melee, advance and attack.
3) if not in melee and cannot reach with a single move, double move to engage.
That is what "attack to the best of their ability." means.
It also means that, unless you're communicating in a language the enemy doesn't understand or communicating telepathically, you are *telling your opponent exactly what you are doing*, and you're probably shouting it to the world so it can be heard over combat! You're yelling out, "You, wait till he comes close then blast him, You two, use your Protection from evil..."
Furthermore, you cannot ready a full round action. The Trample ability of the Aurochs is a full round action.
Alright, I was going to let it go, but fine, if you insist:
Be that as it may, I will also counter that you are misinterpreting the spirit of the summon monster rules as it pertains to creatures like Aurochs.
The Aurochs ready an action to trample Synth:
Summons do not ready actions unless you have the capability to instruct them by communication in a language they understand. At INT 2, they do not understand any languages. The Aurochs actions are to advance to the best of their ability, in as direct a path as possible, and engage the Synthesist with Gore. This is an exceptionally common mistake that people make with Master Summoners that gives them more power than they have. They play their summons like additional PCs, with a full "player AI". They don't do that. If they don't have an int score, or you can't communicate, their actions are:
1) If in melee, full attack.
2) If not in melee, advance and attack.
3) if not in melee and cannot reach with a single move, double move to engage.That is what "attack to the best of their ability." means.
It also means that, unless you're communicating in a language the enemy doesn't understand or communicating telepathically, you are *telling your opponent exactly what you are doing*, and you're probably shouting it to the world so it can be heard over combat! You're yelling out, "You, wait till he comes close then blast him, You two, use your Protection from evil..."
Furthermore, you cannot ready a full round action. The Trample ability of the Aurochs is a full round action.
Please provide a quote that "to the best of their ability" means only and explicitly those 3 steps. To the best of their ability would indeed be to trample. In fact, they would probably DELAY their action until the summoner moved into range in order to be able to trample.
Or do your summons never use any form of special attack that the creature possesses?
Oh, and thanks for pointing out something that I missed, you can't ready to trample.