I love playing around with rules to try out new builds and abilities so I think it would be fun to run a 5e adventure using gestalt rules. I know that 5e is intentionally mean to be stream-lined and have less room for min-maxing but I, as I said, I enjoy monkeying around with things to see what happens.
My adaptation of gestalt rules for 5e:
1. Take two classes at every level. When two classes grant the same type of benefit, take whichever one is better.
2. No multiclassinig. You pick two classes and you stick with them. This is mostly to save headache for my first time trying to adapt gestalt for 5e.
3. You only get extra attack when a class grants it (e.g. 5 levels of paladin). You only get additional extra attacks if you have the fighter levels that grant it.
4. Unlike normal 5e multiclass spellcasting, you gain spell slots independently from each class. So a bard 2/sorcerer 2 has 3+3 first level spell slots instead of 4 first level and 3 2nd level. This will provide caster/caster builds with lots of splots but won't allow them to get higher level splots at lower levels than normal.
Would start at level 1/1.
1. HP: A wizard 4/barbarian 4 with +3 con would have 4d12 hit dice and 12+7+7+7+4*3=45 hp
2. You could choose class skill proficiencies from the lists available to both classes but you could only choose as many class skill proficiencies as the number granted by the class that grants the most. A wizard 1/sorcerer 1 gets 2 skill proficiencies from its class. A wizard 1/rogue 1 gets 4 skill proficiencies from its class.
3. Weapons and armor proficiencies: Pretty obvious here. You have any proficiency listed under either class.
4. Saving throws: You get the saving throw proficiencies of both classes! So a bard 1/wizard 1 is proficient in dex, int, wis, and cha saves.
5. Fighting styles: You get one from each class but you can't benefit from picking the same one twice, e.g. fighter 2/paladin 2 picks defense and defense. He gets a total of +1 ac.
6. ASIs: You get ASIs from each class at specific levels. If both classes grant an ASI at a level, you only get one ASI from that level. So a wizard 20/bard 20 only has 5 ASIs but a rogue 20/fighter 20 has 8 ASIs.
7. Equipment: You get the starting equipment of both classes.
I won't be ready to run this for at least a month or two when some of my current games finish up but I figured I'd float the idea and see if people would be interested and discuss ideas for how to fine-tune these rules.
My (fairly safe) guess is that the class that gets used in the most builds is fighter.
So a party of Pally/Casters?
This sounds cool but I am near my limit with games, so I will check back after I hear from some other recruitments.
Definitely interested.
Oh, yes...
I was also thinking "what can I add to fighter, mmmh..." xD
So a party of Pally/Casters?
This sounds cool but I am near my limit with games, so I will check back after I hear from some other recruitments.
That’s a really cool idea. Everyone is a Paladin/X.
That way the party is all part of the same order of Paladins. Sent on a mission of “x.”
I mean...think of the possibilities!
Paladin/Warlock (Celestial Patron): Cha as highest stat, throw some Eldrich energy around.
Paladin/Sorcerer (Divine Soul)
Paladin/Bard
Hell, even a sneaky Paladin/Swashbuckler Rogue.
Or a savage Paladin/Path of the Zealot Barbarian
A mounted Paladin/Knight Fighter?
Even an Oath of the Ancients Paladin / Druid!
Just at lvl5 give +1 to Hit as a replacement for the “lost” extra attack so they get something.
Would be awesome. :)
Yes I'm interested to see what people come up with. I think that a bunch of pally/casters would be a decent party in that each character is well-rounded. But perhaps a stronger party would be one of specialists in which each class pairing synergizes to really nail a specific party role. E.g.
1. Bard/rogue for mega skills
2. Sorcerer/warlock for incredibly arcane power and metamagic all day
3. Druid/cleric for ridiculous healing and good battlefield control
4. Barbarian/Fighter for crazy tanking and damage
Just throwing ideas around but I'm curious if such a team would be more effective than 4 well-rounded characters. My experience in normal 5e is that 4 specialists form a MUCH stronger team than 4 generalists.
Aye, 4 specialists are *always* better than 4 generalists. Kind of like how in pathfinder mythic is stronger than gestalt.
I was just thinking about what is fun.
Aye, 4 specialists are *always* better than 4 generalists. Kind of like how in pathfinder mythic is stronger than gestalt.
I was just thinking about what is fun.
Yeah it would be fun! I wasn't responding to your post as I didn't see it. I think we were posting at the same time. I was just opining about mechanics. I don't think the strongest possible party is something that needs to be made.
Interesting. I've actually never played mythic but that makes sense.
Mythic can be alot of fun. I prefer gestalt though...because mythic gets ridiculous. I mean, as an example.
Lvl 1 Mythic Barbarian
Str (18) Dex (14) Con (14) Int (10) Wis (14) Cha (10)
* Feats: Power Attack, Mythic Power Attack
* Mythic Abilities: 5 Mythic Points (can be used to add +1d6 to any d20 roll, or can be used for +1 attack that ignores all DR)
* Equipment: Scale Armor (AC+5) and Falchion (2d4, 18-20 crit)
Mythic Power Attack: "When you use Power Attack, you gain a +3 bonus on melee damage rolls instead of +2. When your base attack bonus reaches +4 and every 4 points thereafter, the amount of bonus damage increases by +3 instead of +2. In addition, the bonus damage from this feat is doubled on a critical hit, before it’s multiplied by the weapon’s critical multiplier. You can expend one use of mythic power when you activate Power Attack to ignore the penalties on melee attack rolls and combat maneuver checks for 1 minute"
Round 1
Barbarian moves and attacks. He spends 1 mythc point to get another +1 attack. So now he hits twice.
He rolls an 18 and a 2. He then rolls to confirm, and gets the crit off.
The Barbarian just did 62 damage at lvl 1.
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Gestalt
Lvl 1 Cleric/Barbarian
Str (18) Dex (14) Con (14) Int (10) Wis (14) Cha (10)
* Feats: Power Attack
* Spells: Divine Favor, Cure Light Wounds
* Equipment: Scale Armor (AC+5) and Falchion (2d4, 18-20 crit)
Round 1
The Barbarian buffs himself with Divine Favor. He also has Fate's Favored so the buff is for +2 hit and +2 damage.
Round 2
The Barbarian rages, moves, and attacks. He gets 1 attack.
The Barbarian rolls an 18 and then confirms the crit.
The Barbarian did 16 damage.
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My thoughts....
This was a very simplistic example. Most mythic comes in much later, around lvls 6+. So by then you can get alot more options. Such as an Oracle/Barbarian who can rage cycle.
But still...mythic is just better. Because rather than versatility, options, and combinations...you just get *better* at what you do. Extremely, extremely good at what you do. And when you get mythic spells? Yeah, things can get silly.
I think mythic is fun. It's a great way to tell a story about characters who are godlike. But I prefer mythic, because even though a character can become very versatile, and even downright powerful...they will still be limited by action economy. It becomes nearly impossible to make use of both classes to their fullest each round.
That, and I find the idea of cleric/monks and oracle/barbarians and bard/paladins to be much more interesting than "archmage" and "champion"
Anyways! For this campaign idea you have, what setting/general plot were you thinking?
Interesting analysis!
I'm not sure yet where I want to head with the setting/plot but I'm thinking Blood War. Good PCs have been recruited by an Arch Devil to stay a recent push by several united Demon Lords that could tip the scales of the multiverse. They (very warily and reluctantly) agree to help him and he provides them with an elixir that allows them to train harder and learn faster than normal mortals (hence the gestalt). Setting would be in cities, ruins, and some planar travel.
Now that was an answer I wasn’t expecting! Campaign pretty much screams “Warlock.”
There is no question that the Blood War is the most significant event on the Planes; having gone on since the dawning days of sentience, this battle for the supremacy of Law or Chaos has marked not only the Lower Planes, but the whole of the multiverse for eons on end, seemingly never-ending in its bloodshed and violence. No one can walk the planes for long before encountering something, somewhere, or someone incontrovertibly touched by the Blood War, and hardly ever the better for it...
...Though many may be tempted to, one cannot ignore the impact of the thousands and thousands of mortal mercenaries hired by both sides on the Blood War. While in terms of pure numbers these men and women are hardly noticeable against the backdrop of warfare, mortal contribution has long been marked as providing the most unexpected developments in the War since its earliest day, even into recent years. Further, the Blood War remains the top employer of mercenary force across the planes, and has since the first mortals stepped upon it, despite the immense mortality rates and the trauma such battles as are found in the War can inflict. This has had quite the impact on mercenary companies upon the planes, with nearly all having to account for it outright in one fashion or another: whether it be full-on devotion to one side or another, open hiring by either baatezu or tanar'ri if the pay is good, assignments on a person-by-person basis, or any number of such schemes. And of course, more than a few such companies have even taken hard lines against Blood War employment despite the lucrative contracts it brings, if only that they don't lose employees faster than they can acquire them.
http://www.rilmani.org/timaresh/Blood_War
An interesting campaign idea. :)
I'll bite, as I would be interested in seeing how the gestalt rules meld with 5e. What I make would entirely depend on what options are available: i.e. UA, hardbound books, or something else...
With that being said, however, I can see pairing a Fighter/Rogue (for a duelist/swashbuckler), fighter/cleric (for an unhittable monstrosity), or a warlock/cleric (for a creepy "C'thulu priest").
@Grumbaki: Yes warlock could make a lot of sense in such a setting.
@Vrog: Good to see you! UA would be available upon review, meaning I might rule out certain options after seeing them. For example, I can go ahead and say that the tunnel fighter fighting style will be ruled out.
@LazyFisherman: Could be fun!
The Blood War is a cool idea for a campaign setting, I'm certainly game for it.
Rogue/Monk for sneaking, Paladin/Fighter for demon smashing, lots of other options come to mind.
I like the sound of this, Most likely go ??/Warlock Wiz/Lok would not be too MAD but it could be fun.
Think that I've found a fun one. :)
Race: Goliath
Classes: Barbarian / Giant Blooded Sorcerer
Why the two?
(1) +1 HP per level from sorcerer, which goes with the barbarian d12 hit dice.
(2) At lvl 6, if of frost giant heritage, then can cast armor of agathys and gain a further bonus to temporary HP equal to your constitution modifier. This goes well with the "mountain born" racial trait where the character is naturally acclimated to cold weather.
(3) At lvl 18, have Con22. At lvl 20, have Con26!
Focus on self-buffing and raging.
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Otherwise....
Race: Tiefling (+2 Cha, +1 Dex variety)
Classes: Pact of the Blade Hexblade Warlock / Bard College of Whispers
(1) Cha to hit and damage, with summonable blade
(2) 2x attacks per round from hexblade
(3) +2d6 psychic damage when hitting a foe (increases with levels)
(4) After killing someone can steal their shadow and use it as a disguise (and with expertise in deception, can make the disguise really realistic!)
both seem like they could be alot of fun
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I was already eyeballing this as something I might be interested in, but then I saw the words "Blood War" and my planar sense started tingling...
Before I get too far in, are we talking Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes level of planar material (i.e. official 5e flavor), or full on Planescape (i.e. 2e-3.5e flavor)? Don't mind either way (well, okay, I'd prefer option 2), but I want to know how much I can weave in the old lore without THE OINOLOTH turning into Uncle Anthraxus of the Oinoloths' Union on me...
Also, is it strictly Good characters, or can we be a bit...morally dubious as long as we play nice with the group?
Fun ideas circling around.
Mordenkainen's description of the Blood War was my inspiration so that's what I'm thinking.
I'm inclined to say good characters only but perhaps I'll relay that. Good characters would create interesting tension but others could also... Definitely team play required.
Good characters would probably be very happy to kill various fiendish entities participating in said war? XD
Stat generation?
Rednal: Yes, yes I imagine they would be. :D
Veltharis: Hahaha.
Elbow (Eddrikk): Standard point buy. Avg hp rounded up after level one.
Okay, I'm gonna get started on my submission, and I figured I'd ask about a few different things to help me narrow down what I want to play. I'll put them in a spoiler to keep it neater.
Fighter: Brute Archetype (from the second "Three Subclasses" article)
Sorcerer: Stone Sorcery (from the sorcerer article)
Wizard: Wizard of Invention (from the second "Three Subclasses" article)
Warlock: The Undying Light Patron (from the "Light, Dark, Underdark" article)
Druid: Circle of Twilight (from the "Druid" article)
Starter Spells (from the UA article of the same name)
Feats for Skills, or the weapon/tool feats (from the article of the same name; from the first "Feats" article)
Brute is fine.
Stone sorcerer is fine.
Wizard of invention is fine.
Unsure about undying light. Automatically hopping back up when downed once per fight and damaging all opponents in range seems a bit much.
Twilight druid is fine.
Starter spells are fine. Some cool stuff.
Skill feats are great. I often use these.
I’d be interested in this.
Okay, good to know. I'll get a character created this weekend.
Just to give some reference, I think an interesting but non-deadly fight in 5e occurs (on average since CR is so vague) at CR = Party level*1.4 rounded up. From my experience, this makes a decent fight when neither side has a terrain advantage, etc. I'll have to feel it out for gestalt but I imagine that multiplier becomes something like 1.8.
Those who have played much with me before know that I believe character death is up to the players and the dice. I just create a tough battle and let monsters act according to their nature, though there's plenty of room for some easy fights and some fights that require running away.
I think I'm going for more of a specialised sniper, in the form of a rogue/ranger. Is the Shadar-Kai elf subrace alright?
(LazyFisherman)
Lord Foul II: Sounds fun
Nagar: You piqued my interest with "specialized sniper." Yes Shadar-Kai looks ok. Homebrew will not be allowed by default but requesting is fine. It looks like Eladrin but trading teleport distance for two proficiencies. Curious to hear more about the build.
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Character name: Cale’Anon Vaty
Class Fighter (eldritch knight)/either warlock or bard
Cale’anon Vaty is an elven swordsman who grew up in a traveling carnival/theatre where he and his father ran the special effects and his mom was a fortune teller. He relatively recently learned that his father doesn’t know any “real” magic. He had something of a falling out with his father as a result of this where he shouted that he was leaving to learn real magic. He’d be a great wizard! The greatest wizard that ever was!
If I choose warlock, he will have made a pact for power in his desperation to prove to his father and himself that he has what it takes to be a powerful wizard
Weaknesses: pride & ambition
Hmm... would the Mystic be allowed for this game? I'm curious to see what I can come up with for a mix involving them. XD
Lord Foul II: Nice LFG reference! Sounds interesting.
Rednal: Yes to mystic. I can see that creating some awesome combos. *Shudders* If tunnel fighter we're allowed, a polearm-master+sentinel+tunnel fighter with the immortal's +10 feet of reach would shut down nearly all enemy melee. That's part of why tunnel fighter is banned. I'm currently playing a polearm-master+sentinel+tunnel fighter pally in CoS and it's REALLY good at protecting my buddies from everything but arrows.
My one concern is the immortal's temporary HP generation. It's unclear to me whether those stack or you regenerate them up to your int. Do you know? I'd probably rule the latter or ban it.
One more UA thing to ask about, then I'm done: would you allow the artificer?
Class or wizard archetype? Yes to both.
I am thinking;
Name: Tebeth Rilynth
Race: Drow
Class: Fighter(Arcane Archer)/Warlock(Fiend/Chain)
Raised as a Eillstraee Temple Guard, he served devoutly, and then a man cam to him with an offer he could not refuse
I always forget about the wizard archetype.
Lord Foul II: I totally do that too. In one of my current games, there's a "Crimson Caravan Company" and a long-range communication device called "the Ahncibel." XD
Rednal: Ok yes that seems right.
All: You know, the pally/sorcerer is the classic gestalt but I think pally/warlock makes more sense. Monk/moon druid would be pretty awesome too while bear barbarian/moon druid would be too tanky for anyone's business.
One of the most interesting things to hear will be "why do these people have these two disparate kinds of power awakened in them?"
Well, for most of them, it's pretty easy. XD "I studied hard and learned to be a Wizard", "I was born a Sorcerer", "I made a deal to be a Warlock"... all fairly plausible with most backgrounds.
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How Cale gained his two separate kinds of power is that he was a juggler of swords in the circus he grew up in, and paid for magical training by acting as bodyguard for wizards.
If I choose warlock instead of bard for him he’ll be getting frustrated at how slowly he gains his arcane power and makes a pact with some eldritch being
That's the hard thing: lots of fun options. I do believe in allowing one person multiple submissions though. Of course, a maximum of 1 would be accepted.
My main regret is that there's only one Intelligence-focused class besides Mystic - the Wizard. XD So the best class synergy is basically picked for me. Uuuuuuunless there's something Int-based published by someone else that you want to see played? I might be able to come up with something if you have any suggestions there. XD Justiciar could be interesting, given the proposed theme...
You could always be a little mad and dump one of your spellcasting stats a little bit. But I'm open to Homebrew suggestions if you link me to them.
I don't know if Justiciar is up on a website anywhere - it's published through DMs Guild, though, and I can probably send the full writeup to you. It's basically a Warlock that's focused on a sort of magical law enforcement - big feature is conjuring cages around creatures (0-6 per long rest, based on level), with a small handful of spells and some moderately martial abilities. XD The basic character concept is someone who's investing some things caused by the Blood War and executing demons on general principles, with supplementary "psionic" powers (flavored mostly as will and determination, not psychic stuff) to get the job done.
...
Not necessarily as grim as that might make it sound, though. XD I prefer characters who are a bit more optimistic. Important stats would be Intelligence, Constitution, and probably Strength or Dexterity.
I am going to eschew casting. I'm trying to decide what to pair rogue with (it'll likely be fighter, but barbarian and mystic are both worthwhile condenters. Basically, I don't want to wear armor.