Somehow, we don't have this thread already, and there's definitely been a bunch of interest expressed recently for a Darklands book, so I thought I'd get this started to put it all in one place.
While Golarion's Darklands are the site of multiple Adventure Paths, we're actually still using a bunch of lore from the 3.5 days, which is getting increasingly tricky. Still, they're a cool place to explore, with three distinct layers. The shallowest is wilderness, the middle is the largest, with subterranean lakes and rivers, as well as serpentfolk empires, and the deepest is formed of mysterious artificially-created vaults.
But, what's happened down there, now that it's retroactively never been drow empires? What are the serpentfolk up to? Are there still cultures doing fleshwarping down there? So many questions.
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One thing to factor in is that the Darklands are more like another planet than a single region so the first question is focus; how granular would one like it? Would it be sweeping like a world guide or do deep dives on specific hotspots that interact more with the surface? Maybe have several seeds for story arcs within? I'd like something in-between, providing "country" stats for many Vaults while zeroing in on several cities too. Not sure how much space I'd want for monsters, since I LOVE Darklands monsters, but the book's likely the only place for all the other material. And then there's the question of how much player-material to include. It kinda needs some Archetypes and Darklands-feats, but how relevant would it be to normal campaigns? As opposed to Tian Xia & Mwangi material which integrates well being a ship away, do we want a plethora of PCs-from-the-Darklands? Seems it'd kill the wonder & dread that differentiate the Darklands. (Consider Drizzt's impact on the Drow, mostly negative IMO despite Salvatore's excellent depiction of Drow atrocities. Neutered the Drow with their resultant frequency.)
One quaint desire, although I'm being serious, would be a map akin to the ones after Module G3 Hall of the Fire Giant King. It had the party's expected routes with strange symbols hinting at what dwelt within, as well as a maze of trade routes and side caverns plus that huge sea. Quite simple, yet it sparked so much wonder as to the possible creatures and cultures that might fill those gaps. And the Darklands holds such vaster Vaults and space for alien cultures.
I'd also like material akin to Dungeonscape (3.X), how it provided a vibe beyond routine exploration, made dungeons spooky again.
I'd think a few native ancestries are a must, a Darklands adventure is as likely to include wandering locals (as Vaultlines is implied to encourage) as Topside explorers. Nothing too dramatic, Sekmin and Urdefhan should probably remain purely monster statblocks. But a Hryngar heritage or two for Dwarves is definitely needed, and Munavri seem like ideal "good natured insiders".
Starfinder just did a Hyrngar heritage for dwarves, so if Paizo does a Darklands book I definitely would expect that to be included. I don't really see a lot of players wanting playable sekmin the same way there was a vocal group that wanted bugbears though.
Personally, what I would want is some modular tables for terrain and hazards similar to how some Lost Omens books have creature encounter tables.
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I'd love to have playable Sekmin, but respect that the team probably wants to let them properly be in the villain spotlight for a while before that happens.
Finally getting more details on Tian Xia's awesome Darklands would be nice.
Do we want it written from the POV of the citizens, much like more current books such as for Mwangi & Tian Xia? I'd like some of that, maybe at the top levels w/ sociable races, but not for the more hellish, aberrant levels where shining a light too bright spoils the mystery. How then to illuminate those while retaining the sense of dread & dark depths? Hmm.
I kinda made the thread and then immediately went to bed, so I didn't really share any of my own thoughts.
I'm thinking a lot about ecology, and how food webs work in the absence of the sun. An equivalent to whalefall doesn't really work out logistically (at least as a regular ecological event - a city built on the buried remains of a dead kaiju or something could be cool), but the chemosynthetic bacteria of hydrothermal vents have some potential. Islands of life in the depths, fed by the heart of the earth below.
...or, do a magical version - thaumotrophs, feeding on the leylines of the world, as the foundational producers of a sunless ecosystem. Maybe creatures of sufficient inherent magical power (like, say, dragons) can act as a source of magic themselves?
As for actual existing stuff, I am excited to see what the Sekmin are up to, and hopeful for some more Darklands ancestry options. Playable troglodytes, maybe?
Weren't ecological systems built into the vaults? So who knows what kinds of oddities the designers had concocted before evolution and residents and magical emanations twisted and blended those foundations. I imagine more than a few portals to outside resources, namely the planes of air and water alongside volcanic ones to the planes of fire and earth. This leading to wondering what's lost in response and how?
Weren't ecological systems built into the vaults? So who knows what kinds of oddities the designers had concocted before evolution and residents and magical emanations twisted and blended those foundations. I imagine more than a few portals to outside resources, namely the planes of air and water alongside volcanic ones to the planes of fire and earth. This leading to wondering what's lost in response and how?
The Vaults of Orv are ancient magitech nonsense, and need no further justification. However, the other two layers of the Darklands also have a bunch of stuff living in them, and don't exactly have reliable access to the Vaults and their resources (if they've even got any - the Black Desert is hardly gonna provide resources besides radiation poisoning!).
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I want a more comprehensive list of all the major and minor entrances to the Darklands that have been revealed thus far, including those in Adventure Paths and standalone adventures.
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I want the same thing I want out of every Lost Omens book: a definitive map.Yes, detailed maps are ALWAYS appreciated!
There's hardly a definitive (or detailed) map for much of Golarion's surface, and that's decades in. Even established regions w/ multiple APs retain mysterious zones, not to mention all the border-shifting occurring in this dynamic world. I also wouldn't want Paizo to exhaust possibilities by delineating this even larger territory nor to set aside the project thinking they have to. The Darklands could fill up its own sub-RPG line of products (and if the market/PFS participation allowed for it, that'd be cool).
I think The Darklands could titillate us with more than a few "Here be dragons" (abominations, terrors, Cthulhu) vaults, though that said, it'd be nice to have clarity on where the uppermost layer does connect (even if future connections might be discovered or dug).
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Maps are pretty hard on a three-dimensional region. Especially one that covers the entire globe and which consists heavily of hallway-sized tunnels. I wouldn't get my hopes up for anything too comprehensive.
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I'd alsolike to know the major settlements of each level, under each continent (minus Sarusan b/c nothing is known about that continent). settlement statistics as well for the most important settlements.
The economies and trade relationships of these nations and what their general area of control would also be cool.
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I'll start with the mechanical side of things, although I admit that something simply titled "Lost Omens: Darklands" would probably be mostly or entirely lore-focused. I would really appreciate some more aberration-focused options on the player side. In particular, an aberration eidolon for Summoner and an aberration instinct for Barbarian would both be very enjoyable additions. (I will also happily count "black blood instinct barbarian".)
With that out of the way...
For Darklands regions I'd particularly like to see covered, the ysoki region/"empire" of Diguo-Dashu would solidly earn my "flip to this first". A section with some of the Vaults of Orv feels like practically a given, and while it's not my first stop, it's definitely the thing I'd feel most cheated to not have included.
I would also be interested in a slightly more ancestry-oriented look at the Darklands. Something that covers where kobolds, ysoki, dwarves, cavern elves, and other traditionally subterranean ancestries/heritages all fit in.
This is probably a lost cause but I'd love to see the Drow rebranded as Cave Elves with new juicy lore and some new settlments in the Darklands. Would also love to see settlements and lore of the vile urdefhans, the dour hryngars, and others.
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This is probably a lost cause but I'd love to see the Drow rebranded as Cave Elves with new juicy lore and some new settlments in the Darklands. Would also love to see settlements and lore of the vile urdefhans, the dour hryngars, and others.
I mean, it's not like Cavern Elf stopped being a common heritage at any point? There's still presumably a fair few elven settlements down in the Darklands, it's just that they're not gonna be spider-themed demon worshippers by default anymore, which I think is more interesting.
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An article at the back of Sky King's Tomb's 3rd book mentions the cavern elves. They are called Ayindilar elves and live in "small, isolated, and self-sufficient settlements throughout Nar-Voth and Sekamina that often serve as safe havens for explorers."
So Darkland elves still exists, but they are gonna have very different vibe to what the drow brought.
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For Darklands regions I'd particularly like to see covered, the ysoki region/"empire" of Diguo-Dashu would solidly earn my "flip to this first". A section with some of the Vaults of Orv feels like practically a given, and while it's not my first stop, it's definitely the thing I'd feel most cheated to not have included.
I would also be interested in a slightly more ancestry-oriented look at the Darklands. Something that covers where kobolds, ysoki, dwarves, cavern elves, and other traditionally subterranean ancestries/heritages all fit in.
Yea, the Ysoki I want to see more of, dwarves, orcs and them. I honestly don't care much about the drow. They never felt tied to the rest of elven lore and culture of Pathfinder IMO that is and just felt like drow in other settings but with pathfinder demons. Oh and the fact that sometimes evil elves become black and turn into drow(not sure if that got retconned before drow but I hope so)
So I rather see the realms of the Ysoki, Orcish lands of Orcs who stayed underground, the Ghoul city, underground dwarf holds, and so on. The talk of Drow seems to suck up air that the other ancestries could use. :)
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Don’t forget the Drathnelar gnomes! I want to see them too!
Their aesthetic is cool.
Don’t forget the Drathnelar gnomes! I want to see them too!
Their aesthetic is cool.
What is their aesthetic?
What is their aesthetic?Don’t forget the Drathnelar gnomes! I want to see them too!
Their aesthetic is cool.
The blueish purple skin tones with silver hair, mining and earth vibes, 6 sided dice symbols of their god.
Moldfolk (formerly known as Vegepygmies). I find their Golarion lore fascinating. And a mold based Ancestry is such a fun idea.
Moldfolk (formerly known as Vegepygmies). I find their Golarion lore fascinating. And a mold based Ancestry is such a fun idea.
Unfortunately moldfolk are yet another casualty of the OGL crisis, so we shan't be seeing them again. It's a shame, I would also quite like an ancestry option with the fungus trait that doesn't also have the ability to take the plant trait.
That's funny because this week I was considering a Vegepygmy build, spear and all. Even looked up some pictures for inspiration, but ultimately it was uninspiring. Being non-vocal would be rough in actual play, especially PFS where I'd want to contribute in all those skill challenges, many of which are social or use Recall Knowledge. And yes I'd have played a Fungus Leshy as the chassis, probably wear non-metal armor (if wearing armor at all). For this I'd consider them "not like those plant Leshy", if only because you aren't a plant, but also because I'd be reskinning anyway.
Paizo has created at least one fungal race, though an evil one if I recall, and a bit strong for a PC.
Moldfolk (formerly known as Vegepygmies). I find their Golarion lore fascinating. And a mold based Ancestry is such a fun idea.Unfortunately moldfolk are yet another casualty of the OGL crisis, so we shan't be seeing them again. It's a shame, I would also quite like an ancestry option with the fungus trait that doesn't also have the ability to take the plant trait.
Fungus Leshies it is then.
Fungus Leshies it is then.Moldfolk (formerly known as Vegepygmies). I find their Golarion lore fascinating. And a mold based Ancestry is such a fun idea.Unfortunately moldfolk are yet another casualty of the OGL crisis, so we shan't be seeing them again. It's a shame, I would also quite like an ancestry option with the fungus trait that doesn't also have the ability to take the plant trait.
If you are willing to branch out the Entu Colonies from the new galactic ancestries book are only Fungus tag. Something like the Entu colony would be a great underdark type ancestry. Fungus thing that symbiotically merges with/controls various other critters seems very appropriate.
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Moldfolk (formerly known as Vegepygmies). I find their Golarion lore fascinating. And a mold based Ancestry is such a fun idea.Unfortunately moldfolk are yet another casualty of the OGL crisis, so we shan't be seeing them again. It's a shame, I would also quite like an ancestry option with the fungus trait that doesn't also have the ability to take the plant trait.
We can certainly have Moldfolk, but we cannot have Vegepygmies.
How Moldfolk might get reimagined to distance them from Vegepygmies is still yet to be seen. The origin of Moldfolk in the Darklands is Paizo IP and it would be a shame to not make a new Moldfolk to inherit that lore.
Moldfolk (formerly known as Vegepygmies). I find their Golarion lore fascinating. And a mold based Ancestry is such a fun idea.Unfortunately moldfolk are yet another casualty of the OGL crisis, so we shan't be seeing them again. It's a shame, I would also quite like an ancestry option with the fungus trait that doesn't also have the ability to take the plant trait.We can certainly have Moldfolk, but we cannot have Vegepygmies.
How Moldfolk might get reimagined to distance them from Vegepygmies is still yet to be seen. The origin of Moldfolk in the Darklands is Paizo IP and it would be a shame to not make a new Moldfolk to inherit that lore.
Premaster moldfolk were created via drow experimentation as part of the drow's corruption arc, and that's a backstory that's also off limits for OGL reasons. I'd love some weirdo fungus guys, don't get me wrong, but I think they'd have to end up pretty different.
Creative Director
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We would be changing the name regardless since "pygmy" is problematic anyway. And the "...folk" construct is also one we're moving away from simply because it feels repetitive but also isn't what an ancestry would call themselves anyway, any more than we humans call ourselves apefolk or primatefolk. There's for sure room for more fungal ancestries in the Darklands though! Even potentially player options... I SUPPOSE... ;-P
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Cultures.
And yes, we were just talking about mold people, not that kind. But that did get me thinking of what kind of people they'd be which reminded me of my major beef with adding playable Ancestries (mostly back before races were called that): they often lack culture. A new Ancestry should have enough meat* that one could write a scenario where the vibes couldn't be replicated with a simple Ancestry swap. And where on might find several distinct facets about them or voices among them (even if hive mind was among its themes). Let's avoid the shallow 60s-80s TV aliens that are just costumed people with one weird quirk. Lets get Babylon 5 level. :-) Same for underground cities, etc., at least the noteworthy ones.
Anyway, PF2's mostly done well with this. Let's (by which I mean you devs) keep it that worthwhile, even when the hurdle's a bit higher within the strange Darklands.
(I guess talking about vegetable-people has got me itchin' to get carnivorous.)
Premaster moldfolk were created via drow experimentation as part of the drow's corruption arc, and that's a backstory that's also off limits for OGL reasons. I'd love some weirdo fungus guys, don't get me wrong, but I think they'd have to end up pretty different.Moldfolk (formerly known as Vegepygmies). I find their Golarion lore fascinating. And a mold based Ancestry is such a fun idea.Unfortunately moldfolk are yet another casualty of the OGL crisis, so we shan't be seeing them again. It's a shame, I would also quite like an ancestry option with the fungus trait that doesn't also have the ability to take the plant trait.We can certainly have Moldfolk, but we cannot have Vegepygmies.
How Moldfolk might get reimagined to distance them from Vegepygmies is still yet to be seen. The origin of Moldfolk in the Darklands is Paizo IP and it would be a shame to not make a new Moldfolk to inherit that lore.
Very true, however, the Skekmin are already going to take over some of the old Drow legacy, at least that was suggested early on. If that holds true and the Sekmin inherit some of the Drow places, spaces, activities, and history there is a chance that the mold people history shifts to Sekmin origins. However it turns out I remain hopeful!
I really, really, REALLY want playable Urdefhan. I know it's not gonna happen because they're as close to ontologically evil as it gets, but I love how freaky they look and I don't care how hard they have to get hit with the retcon stick to make it work.
I really, really, REALLY want playable Urdefhan. I know it's not gonna happen because they're as close to ontologically evil as it gets, but I love how freaky they look and I don't care how hard they have to get hit with the retcon stick to make it work.
Obviously it's not exactly what you're looking for, but there's an NPC in Skull & Shackles whose urdefhan heritage -- complete with the look -- is mechanically represented as being a "daemon-spawn tiefling cambion". Given that the urdefhan are explicity the creations of the Bound Prince, I'd say that their appearance is as valid an interpretation of a Grimspawn as any!
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I really, really, REALLY want playable Urdefhan. I know it's not gonna happen because they're as close to ontologically evil as it gets, but I love how freaky they look and I don't care how hard they have to get hit with the retcon stick to make it work.
If it's just about the look, why not play a transparent-skinned Fleshwarp?
One thing I would love is a slime or ooze creature. There is one in Galactic Ancestries for Starfinder, so I would love a pathfinder version. Especially since Aakriti is a fun deity. I am not sure if the darklands would be the best spot for them or not but you never know what sort of creatures are down there so maybe.
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Okay, weird and maybe lame idea but... Happy Orcs.
in their history they were driven from the darklands by the Dwarves Quest for Sky (tm), into the surface, a world they were not built for,
I would love to see an Orc civilization still living underground and shocking everyone by being happy welcoming people, sharing their abundant harvests (of what I don't know). Just a complete shock to anyone who knows surface Orcs. Not like they're total pacificists, but they seek first alliance and harmony, and if these are slapped away their warriors do not hesitate to protect their people. They DO have an ancestral grudge against Dwarves though.
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That is a point, actually. It's a little silly to claim that the whole entire population of orcs were pushed upwards by the Quest for Sky. Like, there was one orcish community and it just so happened to be completely surrounded? The Darklands are pretty interconnected, nobody just…moved a little to the left and let the Dwarves pass by? Even Ancestry Guide describes underground-dwelling Orcs as having returned to their ancestral realms, with no mention of anyone who just…managed not to leave.
I don't necessarily agree such a population should be happy-go-lucky, the Darklands are still a harsh and unforgiving place. But it would be interesting to see a totally divergent culture. After ten thousand years of completely different developmental pressures and influences, they might even be a totally separate ancestry!
While there was a lot of dwarves involved in the quest for sky it seems hard to believe that all of the underground orcs had to flee heck not even all of the dwarves fled.
From what I recall the orcs were not initially overly hostile but given how resource poor the darklands were and the dwarves moving such numbers up through a lot of their territory stuff got heated pretty quick.