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While violence is more or less necessary in this game, taking trophies from one's enemies has the potential to feel pretty gross sometimes. A number of the things you have to kill are things that you might have had a conversation with at some point, after all. If I kill someone and take their magic boots, that's just expected, but if I start cutting off toes then I'm going to feel like a weirdo (in a bad way.)
It's okay to play a character who is simply a maniac that skins their victims or whatever, but what if I don't want to play that kind of character? It can't just be a "the slayer is a better choice for a campaign where you mostly fight monsters" since one of the things you absolutely want to slay is "vampires" who are nevertheless sapient creatures; dangerous predators who might need to be put down, but I don't want to cut bits off to keep around.
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"My lover turned into a vampire! How do we rescue them?"
"I feel for you, yet we'll have to end their torment."
(sobbing) "But what about the master vampire behind it?"
"Well, we'll cut off your lover's fingers-"
"What?"
"Fingers. Or heart if you prefer."
"What?!"
"To help fight the other vampires. See if I-"
"No, no, no! You've become a monster to fight monsters."
"You are what you eat."
(flees)
Yeah, I'd prefer a more nebulous baseline, where a player/table can decide to extrapolate if desired, but overt gore's not inherent in the narrative. Taking essence, trimmings, items, etc. will hopefully function equally well (once the creature's thwarted of course).
That's why I think that trophies should be limited to creatures that don't wear, use, or carry items.
IMO, Mark Quarry should 1-action and work against every enemy, regardless of what its level is. But you could only take a trophy from targets that are your level or higher and a creature that doesn't use items to fight.
I would rather not see situations like:
— Party or NPC: What's this you that's attached to your weapon? A pickled human eye?
— Slayer: Yeah!
— Party or NPC: Why are you carrying such a creepy thing attached to your weapon?
— Slayer: Because it was from a barbarian that did fire damage. Then when I killed him, I took this barbarian eyeball to get such fire damage to my weapon.
— Party or NPC: Whoa! But why is this an eyeball? Why don't you just take… I don't know… a piece of his clothes or his weapon?
— Slayer: Why should I take a part of his gear if I want his fire damage? A gear is just a gear. I also took it, used it, and then sold it later. But his fire damage comes from him, not from his gear, so I need to take a piece of his body like I do with monsters, and the part I thought should be prettier was his eye. Look how it shines!
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Fur, hair, claws. I don't see why you ever need to be grisly if you don't want.
If I would use such things I wouldn't need to kill it. :P
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Fur, hair, claws. I don't see why you ever need to be grisly if you don't want.
But still "I'm going to keep a lock of hair of the vampire I just killed" is disturbed behavior. The sidebar tries to make a distinction between monstrous things and humanoid things, but there's a lot of fun real estate in fantasy to play with the middle ground between "human" and "monstrous."
I guess it's possible that "I'm going to take parts from things I killed that serve no generally practical purpose" isn't really a fantasy I understand at all. Like I'd appreciate a way to play the class as like "I am an expert at killing monsters because I take detailed notes after every one I encounter."
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That's why I think that trophies should be limited to creatures that don't wear, use, or carry items.
This would restrict things like daemons, demons, devils, and outsiders in general, which I feel are something some slayers would want to hunt (Demon Slayer is a really popular anime after all).
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Honestly could be a lot of things it probably only matters if it is symbolic to you and tied somehow to the thing you slew. Could even be something like a drawing you do and then some hair/blood from the target or some kind of small fetish/totem item you make to represent it.
Work with your GM if you want it to be less grisly I don't see any reason you could not flavor it however you want.
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I just have to full disagree. Keeping a lock of a loved ones hair is good luck, because it is freely given. Every bit of slayer is taking part of an enemy to gain their strength. Same as you use herbs grown from plants, ore from the earth, meat from animals.
A large part of many hunter stories is about how monsters pretend to be "human", but aren't. Personally I don't think such distinctions should exist, for the greatest monster is MAN. After all most stories about humanoid monsters are just cautionary tales about the strangers within.
So even taking something they own or wear works, you just need something that is connected physically to them. On the other hand, it's literally called trophies, like a serial killer would take, so you might not get around some level of discomfort in that respect. That doesn't mean it has to be grisly, however.
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I do think there are a couple of things that need to change
1) Slayers should be able to take (non-body part) trophies from enemies they capture, force to surrender, etc. Maybe add a passage allowing trophies to be significant to the enemy's defeat, not just from the target. A mechanic discouraging a player from accepting surrender is not good!
2) I'd like to see support for a Slayer's trophies to be willing given with GM permission. A nymph giving a slayer a lock of her hair, a dragon giving a scale, or an Angel presenting a cast off feather all seem like perfect ways for a player to get a trophy (I'd also like to see trophies infuse the holy or unholy trait).
Making it more explicit trophies aren't always body parts is also important.
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I think just the phrasing of "I am taking trophies from defeated enemies" kind of squicks me out, even if you're just taking their belt buckles or whatever. Like it's not the sort of behavior that strikes me that a person who's not serial-killer coded would do.
I understand wanting to play a monster hunter, but do I have to be one that collects mementos? Like why is this the basic class theme?
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I think just the phrasing of "I am taking trophies from defeated enemies" kind of squicks me out, even if you're just taking their belt buckles or whatever. Like it's not the sort of behavior that strikes me that a person who's not serial-killer coded would do.
I understand wanting to play a monster hunter, but do I have to be one that collects mementos? Like why is this the basic class theme?
You seem to be having a problem with the class as a whole then. I don't think any amount of changing what trophies you take will help with that. You should probably consider another class altogether. You can make a monster hunter that's something else entirely. My character in the Abomination Vaults campaign I'm in is a Magus with Alchemist Dedication, and she basically behaves like a witcher. Recall knowledge about everything the party comes across, recon ahead, plan intensely for what to do, then make a bunch of mutagens, elixirs, tonics, imbibe them and execute a takedown of the threat.
Don't let a class' mechanics hold you back from roleplaying. Any class can be a monster hunter, they'd just go about it differently. Push comes to shove, if you really want to go thematic, a ranger would be pretty good with the whole 'hunt prey' thing.
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I understand wanting to play a monster hunter, but do I have to be one that collects mementos?
No you don't. There are 30 other classes you can pick that are all some flavor of monster hunter (because that's just a thing you do in PF) that don't.
But the Slayer's singular unique feature is empowering themselves by taking totems from defeated enemies. So like... there's kind of a critical mismatch here.
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Vampire: take a metal article from their clothing or jewelry and expose it to sunlight, take a piece of the stake that was used to ensure they were dead, take a page from a book they kept on them,or take a piece of their cloak and expose it to sunlight. Probably most fitting of all, take some of the grave dirt they used or a piece of their coffin- those seem like things you could really use against other vampires.
Bandit leader: take a piece of their armor, take something they killed someone for (when that trophy is rotated out, it's because the family of the victim was located to return it to), or keep their bounty poster. Most fitting thing I can think of is to keep their empty coinpurse.
Because these trophies aren't something that you can expect to have stolen, some more metaphysical options are available. Take a bit of their shadow, capture some of their reflection in a piece of metal, dip something in their blood (still grisly but less concrete). Collect evidence (more fitting for when you're empowering something that isn't a weapon). Set the soul of a victim trapped by the need for justice free and receive some ghostly token or blessing, with ten minutes being the process of locating such a spirit. Heck, receive a small blessing or token if the appropriate prayers were done before and after vanquishing evil.
You mention that taking magic boots is fine and expected. Well, you can also treat the class as one that's able to draw out minor magic that others can't. Those boots might seem mundane to others, but you can draw out a little occult magic to empower something.
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I think just the phrasing of "I am taking trophies from defeated enemies" kind of squicks me out, even if you're just taking their belt buckles or whatever. Like it's not the sort of behavior that strikes me that a person who's not serial-killer coded would do.
I understand wanting to play a monster hunter, but do I have to be one that collects mementos? Like why is this the basic class theme?
It kinda is adventurer 101 go slay beasts take their stuff and often wear it. What is that if not taking trophies.
That's why I think that trophies should be limited to creatures that don't wear, use, or carry items.This would restrict things like daemons, demons, devils, and outsiders in general, which I feel are something some slayers would want to hunt (Demon Slayer is a really popular anime after all).
Yeah, you have a good point. But IMO the ideal was to prevent taking some strange treasure that will give you extra physical damage because you killed a stronger human fighter that doesn't have anything really magical or supernatural.
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One thing about "it's just magical resonance that keeping an arrowhead from that one bandit leader gives you abilities" is that the Slayer genuinely doesn't read as a particularly magical class. If the thaumaturge was doing this, then that's one thing since the Thaumaturge is doing explicitly magical stuff all the time like "teleporting" and "shooting rays out of a wand" and "having an endlessly refilling chalice", but the Slayer seems like an entirely mundane sort of class with the exception that "keeping that one guy's gold earring gives you something."
Could we maybe expand on this idea to get a handle on it? Since if "I'm keeping trophies from my victims makes you more capable because it gets you more excited about fighting" that feels very different than if you have tapped into something magical.
I think one potential recontextualization that would be helpful is to underline that a trophy doesn't need to be anything from the creature you defeated, it can be something that you used to defeat the creature. Like you're not going to be able to take literal trophies from oozes, but the dagger rendered unusable after your fight with a gray ooze would serve as one.
While Slayers aren't very magical, they are somewhat magical. I could easily see a Slayer with a consecrated panoply with a religious bent praying after a climactic battle to record the details of the fight as a "trophy", and drawing from relics to utilize those magical remnants housed therein.
You could do a similar thing with magical notebooks, crystals, or potions brewed from spilled blood and magical residue.
I have to agree with others that softening it too much is really going to undermine the class fantasy. A pragmatic, somewhat unnerving monster slayer carving bits off of a body to arm themselves for future fights is kind of what's on sale here.
I’m all in on the grisliest themes, but you could just as easily substitute wax or clay effigies, drawings, masks, notes, ribbons etc that, though not “from” the defeated creature are “of or about” the creature. It could definitely open up some more craft/artistic narratives, however much it definitely leans into more….PF2-thaumaturgistic approaches…
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Honestly, I like the name Slayer, it is a good one-word name that is evocative and does a really good job of conveying what I think is intended of representing a 'Monster Hunting' class. The fact that the name is a little on the highly aggressive side is fine, especially if it isn't 'a required aspect' the players have to adopt by being the class. The class name should point you to the general idea of the type of character you are playing, but doesn't have to exactly fit every example of an instance of that character type.
So keep slayer as the name of the class, but decouple it with the requirement to have to KILL each opponent to take a 'trophy'.
Maybe baseline, trophies may come from Kills, and that may even me a mechanical reality. But it shouldn't have to be the only way. Similar to how very explicitly, it is mentioned that when taking a Trophy from a humanoid, you typically take a Token, instead of part of the body of the creature. (obviously a nod to trying to maintain some of what civilization considers appropriate or not)
There are already adjustments to what a Trophy is/how you get it. There are other modifications that could open up the class to being a monster hunter, whom hunts 'Pokemons' by defeating them and gain benefits from 'collecting' a new pet. Maybe in that case, a trained pokemon slayer might 'slay' the pokemon, but it is really non-lethal damage to it and it becomes a trophy. But that is just reskinning actions/results.
But how about more applicable and potentially relevant options to place as rules. Offer that when you fully defeat an opponent, but don't kill it. (defeat it, it acknowledges defeat) You may be able to take a Token or Keepsake from the battle.
To keep people from just 'leveraging' peaceful battles as an never ending source of trophies, we could put stronger limitations on it. Non-lethal trophies have to come from a creature that is at least one level higher than you. They also have to come from an encounter which would be considered severe. Finally, they would probably need to be relatively public.
In some cases, your non-lethal trophy may not come from the creature you defeat but the patron of those you defeat. In these cases the trophy may be considered a Favor.
An example in this case could be that a Slayer may earn an actual (by class) for winning a public tournament, sponsored by the local nearby noble. (as long as the tournament battle qualified as a Severe encounter for them, and their opponent was a higher level than themselves)
Part of the idea being you don't get to get a trophy by simply beating a rough peer in a non-lethal battle. You don't get a trophy for ganging up on a stronger opponent to the point the opponent no longer has a chance, that doesn't earn a trophy either.
Other limitations, for lethal or non-lethal trophies. You should, I think obviously only be able to keep one trophy from any particular opponent/patron. Wile you might choose a new trophy later for a latter battle, it would replace the previous one. You can't take a non-lethal one and then later kill them and take a lethal one (the non-lethal one expires).
With this expansion, you might also be able to expand the trophy mechanism to enable you to take trophies from opponents which were not your Quarry. Entering an official tournament or match, should give the slayer an opportunity to select their opponent as a Quarry, even if the match doesn't technically provide the time normally needed.
Two, if you are ambushed by a creature, or stumble onto a monster that you slay. Even though it was a surprise, as long as you contributed to the kill (doing damage, debuff, etc) you should be able to claim a trophy from it as long as the creature is at least a level higher than the slayer and at least a moderate encounter.
One might actually also leverage the RARE tag on a creature, and say that a creature with the RARE tag, if defeated can have a trophy taken even if they are only equal to the slayers level when not a quarry. It brings a mechanical aspect to the Rare tag that can be beneficial to the Slayer. Unique, while theoretically rarer, is also supper common as any 'specific' Named instance of a common creature with an extra ability, qualifies as a Unique creature, despite otherwise being common.
Again, leave the name slayer, which might allude to a lot of Killing. But keep the class from being forced to go full Murder Hobo to fully leverage its class abilities. Letting the class spread its wings out to cover the whole range of Monster Hunter themes for its characters.
Again, my simple solution... which others might have better. Make non-lethal trophies require opponents at least one level higher than usual, come from a severe encounter or harder, and typically require a public battle, or turning folks over to public or commercial authorities. (commercial authorities being Hellknight organizations, etc. whom may have offered rewards for them)
In addition to potentially requiring one level higher for non-lethal trophies, require the same for potentially enabling taking a trophy from a battle with unexpected opponents, as long as both the creature qualify, and the encounter was at least moderate.
Last potentially leverage the Rare tag to open up some trophies when they might not have otherwise qualified.
Lastly, consider offering Keepsakes. If a Slayer's ally falls (dies, or otherwise incapacitated/retired from playability) As long as the Ally was at least the Slayers level (not just a minion). Let them take a keepsake to honor their Ally. Functioning like a trophy. (or maybe you might honestly want to allow the slayer to take keepsakes to honor their own minions, as there might be a very reasonable character concept for such a character, in a relatively gritty setting)
Anyway, it seems like there is real potentially that can be given to the Trophy mechanic if they open it up to a wider range of Trophy(Keepsake, Favor, Token, or Memento)
Those are some fun ideas but also kind of complicated.
I feel like a more likely solution is just explicitly allowing trophies to be described as hunting notes or the result of some ritual (literal or not) associated with victory and to just allow trophies from nonlethal 'kills' with some caveats to prevent trophy farming (even then trophies aren't really impactful enough to make that feel like a huge problem even its most exploitative state).
This does actually bring up a something somewhat gameplay related thing of slayers are encouraged to never use non-lethal for quarry, as a creature has to have died to claim a trophy from it, which I would like to see changed to let it be used on non lethal takedowns.
Yeah, this came up with literally my slayer PC's first quarry, which was effectively a person who needed arresting. The trophy was no problem (he wore a mask) but there was no other reason to kill them. I think it should just say "defeated" or some such.
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It seems like there's sort of two discussions trying to happen at once here?
Like: conversation 1 is "I'm not really comfortable with the default level of Dead Creature Bits assumed in the trophy mechanic, could we have something a little less grisly?" for which the answer seems to be "use the sort of trophies it's suggested to take from sapient foes for every creature, and discuss comfort levels with your table"
and then conversation 2 is "Actually the fact that the slayer can only take trophies from dead creatures is actually kind of an issue, can we have it trigger on a non-lethal victory as well?" which is the sort of thing I think the class needs in final release.
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While admittedly I haven't read the Slayer playtest very closely, this would seem fairly easy. You could abstract the trophies. For non-lethal kills, the surrender itself can empower the Slayer's tools. Surrendering is usually a bit ritualistic anyway. For lethal kills, it can be a dying essence or a part of their final breath.
That might make them a tad more magical or spiritual, but it would seem very on brand for a slayer's blade to have been imbued with the 'dying breath of a demon' and 'an honorable surrender of a general'.
It's worth noting that in the official playtest reveal stream, we saw a Paizo employee take a Trophy nonlethally- iirc, they cut off a scrap of the cloak of spooky evil guy in a mansion? They didn't even comment on that as particularly unusual or something that you'd have to ask the DM for.
Huh. That makes it, if anything, more important to point out the RAW case there - if it's not intended that you can only trophy-take off actually dead foes then we really don't want that accidentally slipping through.
It's worth noting that in the official playtest reveal stream, we saw a Paizo employee take a Trophy nonlethally- iirc, they cut off a scrap of the cloak of spooky evil guy in a mansion? They didn't even comment on that as particularly unusual or something that you'd have to ask the DM for.
So the spooky evil guy was still alive? Or the PC didn't have access to his remains? (as asked for in the ability)
If dead, the playtest already suggests taking non-body trophies from fallen humanoids. Other than the "remains" part, trophies themselves don't have to be grisly, though yes, it'd be best if one could take a trophy from any defeated foe, even one still alive. Though I'd add that the Slayer should have participated in said defeat, which oddly isn't required currently.