Wendy_Go's page

In the adventures I have played (all Paizo published) I've seen "technology" interacted with via many skills.

Computers yes of course. Crafting, of course. Thievery when dealing with disabling or bypassing (and not just traps). Piloting when dealing with vehicle tech. Medicine when dealing with drugs, toxins, and medical machines / data. Society for recognizing alien tech.

I honestly wonder if Reach and 2-hand d10 shouldn't just be one trait like the others, since the reason you make them two is "so you can't take them together" but a 2 handed reach weapon that does d10 is just something anybody with martial weapon proficiency can buy at the shop.

It is a one handed reach weapon that does d8 and some bonus on every hit (difficult terrain or bonus damage). It is an EXCELLENT weapon that NOBODY can buy, even before the bonus effect.

The two hand trait (as noted above) is just that and is... not worth the squeeze. Even if you COULD take it in combination with reach, I wouldn't. Much rather have Trip, Shove, or Free Hand.

Given how common guns/ranged weapons are in starfinder I suspect nimbus surge gets a good bit of use or whatever you are attacking gets stuck to you forced to use only melee attacks.

Most mid+ level creatures seem to have even stronger melee than ranged, and many low level have ONLY melee. So that's not so much "forced to use", as it is "get to use".

Even so, especially with a reach weapon and a shield (phase shield leaves your hand free and is +2 AC), you are doing classic area denial and tanking ... much better the Solarian be eating those melee attacks / engagements than, say, the Mystic.

If you're trying to 'fix' this for Poppets (and, realistically, only Poppets), it would be better off as a ancestry feat for Poppets that gives a +1 status bonus to armour if they have -1 Dex at the cost of -5ft speed. Let's call it 'Ponderous Poppet', deliberately moving slower so as to better use their unnatural anatomy to block hits

That's a really excellent idea. Might use different specifics, but in general pinning it to a racial feat that requires -1 Dex seems good. It even makes sense for the Barathu (they have adaptable physiology). I expect any future race with a -1 Dex would probably also have a physiology that lends itself to permitting abnormal toughness / wearing abnormally heavy armor. I'd love to see some races with that option.

It really wasn't just my intent to "fix poppets" - I originally just wanted the option to upgrade some of the newer armor types with a change akin to the Armored Skirt. Since the Armored Skirt was written to apply to only specific armors, it will never work with any new type of armor unless maybe they think to mention it in that armor's description.

While looking at that I figured a -1 Dex mod on heavy armor might just be interesting. But if races with a -1 Dex can already reach typical heavy armor AC, this item could be much less restrictive / handicapping when used in the originally conceived way. I don't think I'd want to just copy Armored Skirt stats, but -5 move instead of actual Ponderous makes it much nicer for most users, for example.

Sure, poppets would let you dump stat DEX to -1 for your STR martial. And other ancestries let you dump stat Chr or Int, and are probably more suited to martial builds, especially in fantasy terms. Are those meta for Str builds? Do you have to consider them? Isn't the fact that nobody is playing the race with it's default stats equally a sign of forced optimization?

I don't think having this item would "entice" anybody to take a voluntary dex flaw; voluntary flaws don't come with any offsetting advantage any more. But I guess it might make such a flaw manageable, which seems very much inline with the game having cheap and fully enabling prosthetics and other aids for those with voluntary movement or sense concerns.

In either case, fixing (heavy armor only) AC for those characters still leaves them with a penalty to some saves, defense DC's vs some attacks, and multiple skills. Which is STILL a drawback comparable to other -1 stats. Only now they have taken on a movement and initiative penalty, so... still worse than just about any other -1 stat.

So if I want a heavy armor character with a -1 in some stat, optimization wise I'm going Android, Conrasu, Dwarf, or Lizardfolk, maybe even Skeleton ..... not Poppet, even with this item in play.

As for alternate boosts... when you can just grab two boosts like a human, what is the point of even giving the ancestry a penalty THAT NOBODY IS GONNA PLAY IT WITH?? That is why I don't think the alt boosts are a good "fix". People absolutely do run characters with -1 to Str, Int, Chr, even Wis and Con. And while the options to even have -1 Dex do are rare, it seems that when offered... the overwhelming incentive is to say no. Which again, means they probably won't be making races that allow it, because why waste space listing mods nobody will use?

I don't think the issue is the AC per se. We can intuit that they meant for the -1 dex cap to mean that you take -1 AC from DEX regardless of your DEX modifier, so even if you had +0 DEX you would subtract 1 from your AC if you were wearing plate armor with this modification. So in theory all this is doing is making it so -1 DEX characters can reach the same AC values as other chracters by translating that -1 AC into a different penalty.

You are correct in what the net effect is; the effect of a -1 dex cap follows logically from the dex cap rules and the fact that it is possible to have a -1 dex. Hence this item can never give you a better AC than the existing armor can, it just lets you get the same AC with a lower Dex, at an unavoidable cost to movement and initiative.

The issue is more that STR characters already have a ton of incentive to dump DEX and DEX penalties are extremely rare - making it so Poppets are the best bang for your buck in terms of dumping a stat you're ignoring anyways with Bulwark is just really annoying. We generally don't want to give the player a reason to actively seek out a penalty because it narrows down choices in ancestry way too much, and it's just so much worse when only one ancestry offers this as an option and that ancestry's aesthetics clash with most players' fantasy for a heavy armor user.

The basic game mechanics making it so that poppets always want to buy off thier Dex penalty is also really annoying. If that is the intent, they should just have written them so always use Alternate Ancestry Boosts.

It seems odd to focus this conversation on the balance of on one rare race that (as you note) doesn't even fit the common fantasy of a heavy armor user. But I think the lack of a -1 dex armor is actually why only one ancestry offers that option. The point here was to look at a way that might be addressed for possible FUTURE ancestries as well.

For example, the Starfinder 2e Barathu race also has a dex penalty (in a game with a ranged meta no less) and is also used almost exclusively as an Alternate Ancestry Boost build, making it's listed stat mods equally pointless.

I think sticking with a -1 dex (or other basic racial minus) is kind of a nice way to play into the racial tropes, and should always be a valid play choice (IE, without an outsized penalty relative to the upside). But dex... generally just isn't. A -1 dex reduces the two most commonly targeted DC's (AC and Reflex) and Bulwark only party offsets that (have fun being tripped with -1 dex). I don't think anybody seriously runs their character with it unless they plan to be effectively impossible to attack, or are doing one off / playtest builds (as I did with a Barathu fighter that kept -1 dex).

But, opinions differ, and it seems like something at least some people wouldn't want in their game.

TBH I'm not as concerned about breaking paradigms, that's part of what homebrew is for, but I do agree that it's really cheap for what it does.

I feel something like this, something which heavily incentivizes going super all-in on strength and enabling someone to invest less in other abilities should cost more, at minimum. Different grades that increase in level, and cost, as your armor gains runes, for example. It could also possibly be an armor rune in and of itself, but given how competition for armor property runes isn't especially stiff I'm not sure that'd really adjust the opportunity cost of taking this as an option.

Yeah, the fair gold cost for the effect this gives is hard to assess. I put it higher than an Armored Skirt, which isn't much but is enough to be some obstacle at low levels, which are also the levels where the -1 dex would tend to be hardest to negate in any other way. I personally don't think the gold cost really matters much as long as it is high enough to be a significant expense for a starting character, and in any case the REAL cost is the downsides of using it (lower initiative, speed penalty that can not be offset via str).

A lot of the issue you raise re relative price for different armor types and rune levels seems a broad game flaw to me. For example, once you get your first rune, all weapons (from a normally free club to a 25gp backpack catapult) have the same cost - they are all just a "magic weapon". What's the point of all the weapons prices if they all just boil down to the cost of basic runes once you level up?

Precious material costs DO somewhat scale with item effectiveness, by being based on bulk. So maybe this would make more sense as a "precious material" type? It could be an actual material (precluding using other materials) or it could be noted as specifically not preventing the application of normal precious materials, since it is more of an "alternative construction" in the vein of a Sturdy Shield.

Heavy armor is pretty specifically design to be capped at +6 item bonus.

I don't want to see anyone rewarded for deliberately building such a character to have -1 dex and getting around that design paradigm. Generally you can only achieve a -1 dex by choosing an ancestry that has a penalty to dex and then choosing not to increase dex ever.

IMO your homebrew here breaks design rules/paradigms.

It seems odd to assert that -1 dex forcing an AC penalty no armor can offset is a "design paradigm" when there is (as you note) only one ancestry that can do so, and only when you don't increase dex. Why is it a "paradigm" that armor dex limits are never negative? Because they haven't done an armor that has one? They also don't do any heavy armors with a -5 move penalty, but the Armored Skirt allows that... a fact my Dex 0 Champion rather appreciates!

Allowing a net +6 to AC for characters with -1 Dex seems fair, and the other drawbacks of the armor mod hardly make it a "rewarding" option. It's almost certainly a side-grade at best. If anything I was thinking I made the drawbacks too harsh - as also pointed out above, it is generally a worse version of the Armored Skirt.

I'm a bit confused, isn't this effectively just an armored skirt but worse? Or is the intent here specifically to have this apply to heavy armor for a +7 item bonus to AC and a Dex cap of -1?

Yes and yes.

Well, it's arguably not worse than an armored skirt, it just has different drawbacks. Notably, this doesn't increase the str requirement.

And it potentially has uses other than taking heavy armor to +7 w/ -1 dex cap. You could wear it in combination with padded armor to have a medium armor you can sleep in that doesn't depend on high dex to give a decent AC, for example. Quilted armor with heavy gambeson would give +3 with a +1 dex cap.

But at the same time I think we need to be able to evaluate classes in a somewhat feat agnostic way too because there are lots of feat choices and if we narrow our description down to "this specific feat utilized in this way is strong" then we're talking less about the health of the class overall and more about this one specific quirky build being good, which is materially different to me and suggests there are lot of traps and fail states you could accidentally stumble into.

I think "there are lot of traps and fail states you could accidentally stumble into" actually describes the Solarian class balance pretty well. It can do quite well or very badly depending on build choice and play style, and it is not always obvious which choices will give which result. Making it especially bad is that it is a "cool vibes" class that LOOKS easy to build and play, so appeals to a lot of new players.

-Solar Weapon: A solar weapon is marginally better than a martial weapon one handed, but it's not great as an advanced weapon equivalent because they don't let you get damage boosts like deadly, fatal, or even just forceful....<snip>

-Solar Flare: It's... an acceptable thrown weapon. One that doesn't take a hand and has an alternative critical effect, but that's it. You could carry around a javelin and a trident and get more or less the same effect.

The Solar weapon can be a d8 one hand reach weapon, which is something you can't do any other way I know of. That's nice in combination with Solar Nimbus, for obvious reasons. Yes, there are better two hand weapons but...

The Solar Flare doesn't require a hand and doesn't need to be readied or retrieved. That makes it VERY good thrown weapon, on par with one that has a built in returning rune and quickdraw feat and free hand trait.

You can combine the two items above with a worn shield. I use a phase shield so I even STILL have a free hand for spell ampules or battle medicine.

So yeah, the Solar Manifestations are actually pretty good, though there are obviously things they can't do as well as conventional weapons. If you play a Solarian, you are heavily incentivized to stick with what they do uniquely well, which depends on using a lot of small benefits in combination, not making MAX POWA from any one feature.

Wendy_Go wrote:

I think the bigger issue is that it is very MAD. You need the +4 str and +3 dex to do that, which doesn't leave much for putting on other stats. You'll be locked in on being good at str and dex skills, and maybe have a +2 in a decent mental stat if you play a 3 stat race.

a 4 str/3 dex solarian is also going to have pretty low con and wis, which is potentially a lot of trouble for a class that needs to be kind of a tank.

Yes, that's why it is a big issue. That and having limited skill options. It's not so much that this makes for BAD builds, as there's a pretty narrow range of good ones since your 2 best stats are fixed.

As I recall, for mine I went Android with 4 str, 3 dex, 0 con, 1 int, 2 wis, -1 chr. His fortitude save is pretty bad, but perception and reflex are fine. I use a Phase Shield to good effect to keep my AC up so the HP hit isn't awful, and will probably go heavy armor at level 2 if I keep playing them past "Murder in Metal City". My initiative is actually quite decent because I'm a Disciple of Triune. Obviously I keep my mouth shut when there's talking to be done...

I agree that the core book version LOOKS under tuned, but works decently on the table top. This is from my admittedly limited experience playing at level 1.

Solar shot is actually good when you are in range (which is more than you'd expect from the talk about "ranged meta"). A +3 attack instead of +4 isn't a big difference in most low level fights, and a flat +4 to damage (from +4 strength) makes that an unusually effective ranged attack. Maybe my guy just rolls well and has only faced soft targets, but I basically ripped through a target a turn in every fight we have had... except one that was a (somewhat scripted) TPK.

I think the bigger issue is that it is very MAD. You need the +4 str and +3 dex to do that, which doesn't leave much for putting on other stats. You'll be locked in on being good at str and dex skills, and maybe have a +2 in a decent mental stat if you play a 3 stat race.

Also so many of it's special "solar effect" only apply on crit, which seems like a "win more" feature that doesn't actually help in hard situations.

I'm told it feels even better at higher levels, though I have my doubts. Getting the multiple crystal sets to upgrade your solar weapon(s) and solar flare as well as armor (and likely a shield, you'll need it not to get mobbed down as a solo front liner) to stay at level, seems like it would strain and surpass typical wealth. And the effects gained from orbital crystals seem both weaker and less reliable than those from mods, often being tied to one attunement.

As to fixes, I do think they could use ... something more. Possible ideas:

- Solar Crystals should apply to ALL solar attacks, so you don't need to keep up on 2/3 sets of them.

- Solarian gets choice of increased proficiency with either one attunement or the solar weapon / solar flare as class feature. This gives "sub classes" that are more proficient with one attunement or with melee / ranged fighting, brings those crit effects into play more often, and is a simple way to give the 10-20% damage boost people say the class needs. It is especially appropriate to a class that will often be striking in melee without any aid from allies for flanking.

- All Solar Attacks should have Boost as an option (d10 for weapon, d8 for flare). It is SILLY that (all else equal) using a Painglave can easily be more effective than using your solar weapon.

I always found it odd that you can make a character that has a -1 Dexterity mod, but there is no armor suited to them. There are also a rather limited number of armor types in general. The Armored skirt broadens this a bit, but actually makes the armors best suited for a -1 Dex character less so, not more so. With that in ming. I cooked up the following item.

Armor Adjustment - Heavy Construction
Uncommon , Adjustment
Price: 6 gp
Usage: applied to light, medium, or heavy armor
Bulk: 1
 
Armor can be made of thicker materials, although this is counter-productive for many wearers. This adjustment can be applied to any armor when originally crafted or purchased, but can not be removed or installed on existing armor.
 
Heavy Construction increases the armor's item bonus to AC by 1, reduces the armor's Dex cap by 1, increases it's bulk by 1, and adds the Ponderous and Hindering traits. It can not be added to armors that already have either of those traits, or to any armor that has the Aquadynamic or Flexible traits. This also changes the armor from light to medium, or medium to heavy, with no further effect if already heavy, and you use the proficiency bonus appropriate to this adjusted armor type.

Wendy_Go wrote:

Since they do OK at low levels

Do they? I feel like level 1 is the point at which you most feel the effects of their underwhelming damage die, photon strikes' weak damage, and their lack of non-strike based powers (literally zero).

They tend to pick up at medium levels with the right feat choices when you start accumulating powers that actually do things.

The fact you almost certainly are adding +4 to the damage dice helps. I took Binauric Assault to get two zero MAP cracks at that, and don't even feel bad when I double wiff.

Maybe a Melee soldier does better, but my "OK" was just that - sufficient to get by. Good to know they actually go up from there, I expected the opposite.

Vlaka built artificial environments would have the scent equivalent of paint and lighting, probably derived from natural elements. So a hatch in the floor might be "hole in the dirt" scented, and stairs might be "fallen log" scented.

It's not a stretch to think they could make a tech device that uses video / lidar to map other environments to a personal sensorium of similar scent cues. Seems like if such tech were possible it would make other artificial senses / sense improvements (like dark vision) much cheaper as well as creating a disability when not available, but ... eh, game practicality and balance. It only really has to work for "mapping" out very clean artificial environments, vacuum, etc.

Two things I don't see mentioned above are Augmentations and Armor Mods. These kind of fill the same rolls magic items often do in Pathfinder, but use different sets of limitations and often entirely new / more appropriate (to both setting and mechanics) functionality. And you can still use magic items - the game has them, just not many in the core book, and it's up to the GM to decide if / which ones carry over from PF2E (or maybe get rethemed as tech).

I think the simplest fix for Solarian in general would just be to up their weapon proficiency by one bracket (not sure what the proper language on that is) when using solar weapon and solar flare. Yeah, they do eventually hit legendary at 19... which they still would, but for other weapons.

This would increases their hit rate and effective damage, which IMO is a bit lacking as you go up levels (their orbital crystals are not as strong as mods). And it would bring the attunement based critical effects (core class flavor) into play more often. I suspect this is how most players would try to use traits anyhow (though I'm sure the reach + trip combo would also be popular).

Since they do OK at low levels, this could be an ability that kicks in at some mid range level, say along with weapon specialization. On the other hand, it would feel oh so good to have from level 1, and even at those levels they seem more "OK" than S tier.

It might even make sense to restrict this to applying to only one attunement type, in effect brining back the attunement based subclasses as a proficiency based bonus. Then again, that might too highly discourage cycling attunement.

Primary target grants a free action. Unwieldy doesn't affect free actions. I'm not clear on the bullet/charge cost of primary target attacks with area only weapons.

How does unwieldy ignore free actions? It is a limit on per turn strikes, and reactions. So if you somehow have already done a Strike with an unwieldy weapon and get to make a second strike as a free action... you can't strike with that weapon.

This is actually seems quite possible for a level 20 Soldier using Bullet Typhon. They could easily make two area attacks, so get two chances to use Primary Target. Which is NBD, they just wouldn't use Primary Target on one of the (likely the second) area attacks.

The Shobhad text implies (to me) there may be specific rules that allow wielding with non-active hands.

The Kasatha text doesn't allow for wielding in non-active hands (unless you apply the standard "specific overrides general" rule)

Maybe, but if the only difference is you can't wield, why not just make the hands you want to allow wielding with active? We already have rules that allow you to have more then two active hands (temporarily). That seems to cover the use case of "wielding with more than 2 hands" just fine.

In addition to hardlight, the Swarmsuit would work without needing any changes to description or special adaptation by the shapeshifter. The description actually mentions it works for users with "transformable physiologies."

I wasn't even aware that Skittermander was legal in PFS.

I'm guessing that they are importing the Switch Hands action.

As far as staying on the clearly legal side of rules legality, I would expect that anything that says that you need a free hand in order to do should be interpreted to mean having an active hand free. A free hand that is not active would not count. So things like Extravagant Parry or even Grapple would be questionable.

So mostly you would be looking at items that only need to be held rather than wielded.

This is in fact clearly legal. An empty hand is an empty hand. The 4/6 arms rules don't say anything at all about empty hands, just that you can only wield items with active hands.

I just today posted a thread about the RAW interpretation of that rule resulting in nonsense and it seems Paizo agrees, because they had ALREADY IMPLENTED the rules text change I suggested. The Shobhad have 4 arms and thier version of the 4 arms rules simply says "you wield items only with active hands".... which doesn't seem different from "you can only wield items with active hands" but in fact is, and has the result that you can in fact hold and use most items with non-active hands, as well as (if not holding anything) use them for all the things an empty hand can do.

For covered in this thread, the language in the 4/6 handed rules should not say "can wield" but instead just "wield".

This change has apparently ALREADY BEEN MADE in the Shobad rules, and should be applied to other already published rules.

For what it is worth, the latest 4 armed race, the Shobhad, actually has a different "Four armed" rule text than the Kasatha. At least they do as posted on Nethys. And it uses the language I proposed. So... eratta applied?

Four-Armed (Shobhad)
You have four arms, which allows you to wield and hold up to four hands' worth of weapons and equipment. At any time, one pair of hands is designated as your active hands. You can change this designation from one pair of hands to another by taking the Switch Hands action. Unless otherwise indicated, you wield items only with your active hands. For more information on playing characters with more than two hands, see Hands.

Four-Armed (Kastaha)
You have four arms, which allows you to wield and hold up to four hands' worth of weapons and equipment. At any time, one pair of hands is designated as your active hands. You can change this designation from one pair of hands to another by taking the Switch Hands action action, which is a single action. You can wield items only with your active hands.

At first I thought this was going to be a parallel/duplicate of this thread discussing if you can use items or free-hand abilities with your non-active hands as long as the items don't require being wielded.

But it isn't. I hadn't considered the idea that a wielded item held in a non-active hand would be a rules violation and an unacceptable state for a character to be in.

And after considering it, I don't think that is a reasonable conclusion to come to.

Yes, that is exactly my conclusion as well. My point isn't that it is a reasonable conclusion - my point is that it the rules shouldn't potentially lead you to such a conclusion. Because on my first read, it IS the conclusion I reached. Sort of - I concluded you couldn't use the stuff you held in non-active hands, then later realized that train of logic actually meant you couldn't hold most stuff at all. Which as you say, is not reasonable.

If I'm reading this right, these allow no save? In that case Law of Entropy seems awfully good. At odd levels you do 10 damage per rank to an equal level target, with no save!? And it effectively has a death effect? Starting at level 1?

That would be really brutal at low level in NPC hands (and still pretty nasty at high level).

OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

Looks awesome. What’s not to like about the aesthetic? It doesn’t have to be “Asian” coded in most games. Reskin it to look like whatever metal/laminate you like.

Indeed. This is a (work in progress) lamillar armor I made.

It is somewhat Asian inspired, but there are many cultures that do lamillar armor and this doesn't match any of them. It's actually made from salvaged industrial bandsaw blade segments and openly uses modern materials and tool methods, because it was made as a "post apocalyptic" cosplay piece (despite being actual hardened steel, so fully effective as armor).

How do dhampirs heal in pf2e remastered

This what my research comes up with .....

You can add the Animists "Garden of Healing" spell to that list. It works in the same way as the Soothe spell, only with an emanation and at a rate of d4/rank per turn for up to 10 turns. This makes it fairly useless in combat (you will heal all enemies, even the undead) but absolutely amazing for post combat healing.

Yaoguai also seems good for aliens. Obviously most of the lore would be scrapped, but an awakened energy cloud / computer program / mold colony that decided to take humanoid form is a solid a sci-fi trope. The "Born of Item" heritage seems especially appropriate for awakened machinery.

Yeah, even tho I do agree that your version of the text is more airtight legalese, I think the existing text is clear enough that I didn't have a problem understanding it.

I got really confused when you started saying things like " The rules above say I can wield items only with my active hands. So I guess I can't hold that med patch in any non-active hand, ever". It feels like you came to entirely the opposite conclusion of what that was supposed to mean.

It does come to the opposite conclusion of the INTENDED meaning. We "know" from art and playtesting and SF1 that these races are meant to hold items in their inactive hands.

Unfortunately, the language of the written rules does not actually implement that intention, or at least can lead you to the wrong conclusion without any grammatic or logical contradiction.

There are some ways to hold items without wielding them (any item that requires two hands to use, but is held in one hand) and following the (consistent but "incorrect") reading, you WOULD be able to do that, you just wouldn't be able to hold things in a way that allows use (which is the definition of "wield" the rules gives).

You're overthinking it.

As always, specific rules override general rules...
Equipment rule is a general rule talking about when you're wielding something
The rules for the Kasatha & Skittermanda are specific rules for that ancestry which say when you're holding something and when you're wielding something.

Also, there's nothing in the equipment rule that says you're not holding something that you're wielding.

Yes, the problem is the specific rule was written to say when you "can wield" something, not when you "are wielding" it. So it is only logical the then ask "ok, what would cause me to wield things, and how do I avoid wielding them?" Which would lead you to concluding you can do something like hold a laser rifle with one hand, but not hold a laser pistol. Which is stupid... but I'd rather not have rules that depend on "that's stupid, ignore it" as a mechanic.

There indeed is nothing that say you are not holding something you are wielding. Or the other way around. That is the exact crux of the problem.

Soldiers are supposed to be the Area Attack class. do have improved Class DC. But that is a thing they share with Witchwarpers. And possibly some other future.

They needed something more then just DC to tell them appart. Primary Target is that extra buff to Area Attacks. That is why I think this needs to be as perrmissive as possible. It is the main reason to use the class.

Primary Target is still an extra strike per turn, that seems quite good. For two actions, a soldier almost always gets their PT strike, an area attack, and some bonus effect imposed on the PT or suppressed targets. Then they might even take a MAP -5 strike, and also get a ranged reactive strike. That means potentially attacking a boss target 4 times a turn, with 3 at no penalty and one at only -5 MAP. That is MUCH better than any other class would do using the same weapons, and is top tier martial stuff.

Except for a very few cases, you weren't ever gonna get 2 PT uses a turn (outside of Punishing Salvo, which still works) even when it DID ignore unwieldy. It may simply have been cut to reduce word count and rules bloat, and in which case - fine, no loss for 99.99% of soldier players.

I played a (bombard) soldier with a Cryo Cannon from level 10 to 13 in a party that had a Solarian. I can only remember the "ignore allies" feature coming into use maybe twice. That might be unique to the party we had (solarian mostly used reach, nobody else did melee) but... not that unique, and I could see it being entirely optional.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing at least part of each fighting style made available (as feats or otherwise) so that a soldier can have a wider range of options in terms of play styles. They currently get very good at what they do, but tend to stay very narrow. This is made even more so by the fact that you can only really keep one weapon improved and modded to full level optimized effectiveness.

So AFAICT the new starfinder2e rules for a Soldier’s Primary target doesn’t say that they ignore the unwieldy trait. Is this intentional? Trying to get an official ruling so I can produce 3rd party stuff.

Correct, it does not ignore the Unwieldy trait.

Unwieldy says "you can't use an unwieldy weapon more than once per round to Strike and can't use it to Strike as part of a reaction, such as Reactive Strike."

So with Primary Target, you make a Strike (as directed by Primary Target)... and then make an Area Attack that includes that target. Area Attack is not a strike, so is not blocked by the Unwieldy trait. I see no problem there.

If you could make two area attacks in a turn (say you are level 20 and have the Bullet Typhon feat) then you would only be able to use Primary Target once, and would probably use it only on your first attack. But I think we can assume that Unwieldy is working as intended in that case!

Let me first say I know (or think I know) how this rule is supposed to work, and will assume you do as well. But let me walk you down a path of reading and logic that shows how the text is confusing and should probably be changed.

OK, first let us look at the rules for equipment use:
Source Player Core pg. 235 "Equipment"
"Some abilities require you to wield an item, typically a weapon. You’re wielding an item any time you’re holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively. When wielding an item, you’re not just carrying it around—you’re ready to use it. Other abilities might require you to be wearing the item, holding it, or simply to have it."

OK cool, so if you hold and item in your hand(s), you are wielding it. There's a few exceptions (say if it needs two hands and you use one) but they aren't relevant to this discussion.

Now let us look at the rules for 4/6 hands from the ancestries that have them:
Source Player Core pg. 54 "Kasatha"
"You have four arms, which allows you to wield and hold up to four hands' worth of weapons and equipment. At any time, one pair of hands is designated as your active hands. You can change this designation from one pair of hands to another by taking the Switch Hands action action, which is a single action. You can wield items only with your active hands."

Source Player Core pg. 70 "Skittermander"
"You have six arms, which allows you to wield and hold up to six hands' worth of weapons and equipment. At any time, one pair of hands is designated as your active hands. You can change this designation from one pair of hands to another by taking the Switch Hands action, which is a single action. You can wield items only with your active hands."

OK, so I'm playing a skittermander and have a big gun in my active hands. I want to have a med patch in one of my other hands... but you are "wielding an item any time you’re holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively", so if I hold that med patch in any hand, I'm wielding it. The rules above say I can wield items only with my active hands. So I guess I can't hold that med patch in any non-active hand, ever....

Clearly this conclusion contradicts the intent, but it follows from the text because the meaning of "can wield items only with your active hands" is ambiguous. Does it mean that I can't do things that would result in wielding? To me that is the logical conclusion, but it clearly (or maybe not so clearly if that is the only source you have) is also NOT what the game intends.

I suggest these sections be changed as follows:

Source Player Core pg. 235 "Equipment"
"Some abilities require you to wield an item, typically a weapon. You’re wielding an item any time you’re holding it in the number of hands needed to use it effectively and those hands are your active hands. When wielding an item, you’re not just carrying it around—you’re ready to use it. Other abilities might require you to be wearing the item, holding it, or simply to have it."

Source Player Core pg. 54 "Kasatha"
"You have four arms, which allows you to wield and hold up to four hands' worth of weapons and equipment. At any time, one pair of hands is designated as your active hands. You can change this designation from one pair of hands to another by taking the Switch Hands action action, which is a single action. You wield items only with your active hands."

Source Player Core pg. 70 "Skittermander"
"You have six arms, which allows you to wield and hold up to six hands' worth of weapons and equipment. At any time, one pair of hands is designated as your active hands. You can change this designation from one pair of hands to another by taking the Switch Hands action, which is a single action. You wield items only with your active hands."

I hadn't thought about the Swashbuckler. You're absolutely right, it is beyond absurd that the swashbuckler gains panache for just wandering around the battlefield.

It's not absurd, because it doesn't happen.

Tumble through has the Bravado trait when used by a swashbuckler.

Bravado: Actions with this trait can grant panache, depending on the result of the check involved. If you succeed at the check on a bravado action, you gain panache ...

No check, no panache. No trying to pass through enemy, no check. No change is required for Swashbuckler.

Or, IMO, for Liturgist. Yes, the Liturgist can sustain by using Tumble Through without being anywhere near an enemy. What they CAN'T do is use something like hast to gain a stride move which then gives them a free sustain, because Tumble through and Stride aren't the same thing. It's not an ideal rule in terms of naming, but it works in terms of game balance.

<snip>And Giant Instinct gives you 18 damage, but you're clumsy 1. Is clumsy 1 better or worse than 10 damage per round? Hard to say honestly. But I don't personally like it and wouldn't choose Decay instinct. Probably because I feel like there is more I can do to mitigate the lower AC from clumsy, since there is nothing I can do to mitigate the 10 extra damage per round from Decay.

I think your impression is correct. In the very worst case, a -1 AC means you get hit 5% more often and crit 5% more often (with similar issues for reflex saves and being tripped). So unless you are being targeted every turn for 100 damage (or something you consider equally bad) then it's not as bad as the 100% certain 10 damage from poison.

On the other hand... that extra 100 damage is gonna be coming all in one chunk, not spread out over 10 turns!

Did anybody even playtest this combat style? It seems a bit on the weak side and even worse, lacks an obvious identity, is just "the one that can use a third action to suppress at long range and maybe can tank". I suggest adding the following action to it as well:

ERUDITE ANALYSIS [free-action]
Trigger: an enemy you have suppressed targets anybody except you with a Strike or other offensive action
Frequency: Once per turn
When not defending against attack, you can analyze enemy reactions to suppression, drawing useful conclusions about their capabilities. Make a recall knowledge test regarding the target. You may end the suppression to roll class DC as a general skill on this test (e.g. in place of Religion but not Undead Lore against undead).

I did some editing that I lost due to time out, but the more I think about it, the more I think "Angled Shot" should be a basic function of line weapons. Line is currently seen as under-powered and all the weapons that use it are either clearly intended for the soldier (two handed, 2 bulk) or have frankly OBSCENE ammo consumption. Juicing these weapons so that they can affect an extra target or hit somebody around a corner on occasion is perhaps exactly what they need to make up for their lack of just easily dropping an area covering template to hit multiple targets.

I just want to say this feat is a hidden gem that maybe should be lower level and then expanded on at higher level. Angled Shot really upped my AA game and the thinking I had to do when lining up shots. I think maybe it (and the other similar "increase you AA" abilities) should be level 4 instead of Punishing Salvo, and PS could be level 12!

I don't think Line weapons are very popular for Soldiers, but IMO they should be. I took a soldier using a Zero Cannon as their only weapon through Empires Devoured and felt it was very effective.

At level 10 it was good because I got 15 shots from an Advanced Battery. I juiced my movement by completely negating my armor penalty (Mobility Enhancer) and running Speed Suspension and using ampules for the rare times (happened once) that I wanted to fly. I was moving more than the rest of my group combined (including the Solarian) and it was fun. I didn't use Punishing Salvo very often, which encourage me to use meta-attacks like Covering Fire.

Eventually I think the GM figured out how to make it harder for me to line up 2+ enemies, say by parking them all in corners. I was moving less and just dumping my 3rd action on Punishing Salvo, doing high single target damage and not using meta-attacks. YAWN. And that's how most soldiers play from level 4 up, as I understand.

At level 12 I picked up Angled shot and suddenly I could tag those corner lurkers, bounce off the wall behind them, and also tag a second baddy. When I didn't have to move to do it, I could use punishing salvo, so now the GM was moving to prevent me from getting to both hit two targets with AA and use PS.

I think if the levels at which I had gotten Angled Shot and Punishing Salvo were reversed, it would both drop level 4-12 DPS and put more focus on Meta-strikes than just maxing DPR with PS. It encourage thought and movement from a class that otherwise easily becomes a no brain turret and improves a weapon (Zero Cannon) that otherwise seems sub-standard (though probably isn't once you upgrade ammo capacity, even just with advanced batteries).

As a side note, When I mentioned this ability in a PF2E discord, the caster players were all drooling at the idea. Something similar would make a very good spellshape, or could just be the basis of an interesting new spell, or a cool ability for wands that cast line spells, or probably implemented in a dozen other ways.

This misses the text in both Primary Target:

Primary Target wrote:

This Strike uses the same multiple attack penalty as your Area Fire or Auto-Fire action but doesn’t count toward your multiple attack penalty.

And Punishing Salvo:

Punishing Salvo wrote:

A concentrated barrage can bring most enemies low. You make a follow-up ranged Strike against your primary target. Ignore the unwieldy trait on your weapon when using this action. This does not make a new area attack, and is treated as a Strike made using primary target.

So your follow-up Strike from Punishing Salvo uses the same MAP as your Area Fire action, which is 0, causing you to make two MAP-less attacks. If this is not the intention of the feat (and I sure hope it's not), then the feat should not mention primary target at all, as you'd just be making a Strike from the weapon as if it were a regular gun.

I interpreted this to mean the same MAP you would get if making a NEW Area Attack. Since Primary Target does not itself have MAP, it needs to "borrow" from Area Attack, but reaching back in time to before MAP increases is obviously busted.

In fact, "the same multiple attack penalty as your Area Fire or Auto-Fire action" sort of doesn't make sense, as AA doesn't use an attack roll. If you could somehow make two atacks and then use AA (say because Quickened), it wouldn't matter at all to the saves that AA would have -10 MAP.

In the end, my soldier was still PLENTY strong using Primary Target (before AA, so 0 MAP, but NOT adjusting the AA save), Area Attack, and then Punishing Salvo with -5 MAP.

I mistakenly played the new PA version as only applying the save modifier to the suppression effect of Area Attack, not the damage part. Which for my Bombard meant it automatically suppressed if I hit (1 degree worse, success is still suppressed).

This was still PLENTY strong.

Our GM made no adjustments. We only had 3 party members (plus a healer NPC). One computers, one crafting. And the BOOM roll was 19.

My soldier just went to the observation lounge to watch the worlds end. Got an up front show after 3 turns. I think we were 1 for 6 at that point.

On the other hand the battle itself wasn't that hard, nor was the one before it. I expected those big gunarm boys to hit MUCH harder and more often, or at least sponge up more ammo. But a soldier throwing out primary, area, punish, and overwatch shots hits hard and often. I got to do crit damage like a half dozen times in that fight.

Are player AP guides ever updated to reflect new classes, or at least this sort of issue addressed in blogs or some such?

Leveling up in a kingmaker campaign from level 1, getting mythic feats the way most people do Free Archetype. We also allow spending a mythic point to buy a hero point (mostly to re-roll an attack).

Recently got the "Godspeed" feat. Being able to cast haste + tailwind on myself for one action & mythic point, at level 4, feels a definite cut above. I play a gish animist, so am always a bit tight on action economy, but can really cut loose when I have the actions to do so and can get in a good position...

Ok, what am I missing?

Loads of Calling and Mystic Feats grant you the ability to spend a Mystic Point to make a check with Mystic Proficiency. Fair enough. But Rewrite Fate allows you to reroll a skill or save check with Mystic Proficiency as a free action after
you've seen the result if your roll, and every Mystic character gets that.

If you have the latter, why do you need the former?

I play a character who has the caretaker calling.

If I want to use "treat wounds" and have trained proficiency (because I'm only level 2), I can roll vs a 15 DC to heal 2d8/4d8. If I use "rewrite fate" and roll with mythic proficiency, I might get the 4d8 but probably just get the 2d8.

If I roll at mythic proficiency, I can roll against 20 dc for 2d8+10/4d8+10 healing BECAUSE MY PROFICIENCY IS MYTHIC INSTEAD OF TRAINED. My chance to fail is slightly higher, but the payoff is MUCH bigger. And I can still re-roll using re-write fate.

Not all skills have the first property (where rolls are gated by proficiency) but they do all have the second (where rolling with mythic then also allows a mythic reroll).

Is it a HUGE advantage? Eh, probably not once you level up, and only for certain skills. I wish they had taken it further in that direction, maybe by saying you can never critically fail the rolls or some such.

It's not RAW but IMO you should be able to drink a potion (or I guess inject an amp) that is stored in your cheek pouch with a single interact / manipulate rather than having to ready it first. After all, it is already in your mouth / in contact with your skin! But that is a pretty big power boost...

It seems silly that if the inclusion of Tumble Through was intended to freely permit any sort of striding / climbing / flying / swimming. Why dance around the subject when you can use the plain language of allowing movement?

But I guess that's a separate issue. In my interpretation, if you don't try to move through the space of an enemy, you aren't using Tumble Through, you are just striding (or otherwise moving). You don't have to succeed, but you have to make that Acrobatics check and potentially accept the (minor) consequences of failure.

q1: I'd probably want to phrase the investigation more as "how can we resolve the threat this bug hive poses to X settlement". But yeah, I think it is an ability you should be generous and permissive with.

q2: Pretty damn busted. In situations with many targets it is a big boost to hit rate. In situations with one hard target it still improves action economy (saves reloads) and exploiting action economy for things like RK, Aid, hiding to gain flat-footed next turn, etc.

q3: In the pf2e game I play, the investigator used the basic "devise, shoot if good / change target or action choice if bad" tactic without free actions because he forgot them. It was still pretty effective. Operative could just kick it up a notch with better attacks.

1) Pest Form has a duration of 10 minutes. The spells the heightened versions mimic are one minute. So maybe just change the duration of the Pest Form cast. The sustain cost is ... unfortunate but maybe a price for flexibility. A liturgist can partly bypass it I guess.

2) Good point, and I suppose the fact that those are one minute when cast from spell slots does make the vessel spell a much closer equal anyhow.

3) Its a step, leap, or tumble through action. That's more limiting than a general movement action, and even more so when using a form that has a climb, swim, or fly move. The shape swap might be useful (or not) but I suppose either way for animal form it nets you a refreshing 5 temp HP since you get that when you choose a form, and can choose a form every turn.

4) Fair enough if your interest is using it to fight. IMO that is not a very interesting use, since an Animist who wants to do so can already fight decently well. My complaint is less that the spells are BAD, as they are so limiting that they offer nothing new and discourage you from picking that apparition.

So yeah, it does seem what is was thinking of is out of line for anything higher level than Pest Form. Personally I'd be happy with weaker forms that lasted a longer time, since my fantasy for shapeshifting isn't killing stuff as an X, but instead is "living / traveling at will as an X"