I'm looking for some ballpark numbers of how a full offense caster can shape a combat.
Looking at paced spell output -- so say a full dungeon with at least six moderate combats and one to two difficult combats, something where casting from your mid to high level resources is the smart decision -- what percentage of the enemies would they likely debilitate or eliminate in the first one or two rounds?
For context, we have an all melee party and I'm trying to run the numbers on how many party buffs are too many buffs from my combat oracle given that we don't have a caster on offense.
That’s really too complex to calculate, without being given a hyper specific example. A lot of the strongest controls have enemy types they simply don’t work against, but are binary in effect when they do work. Damage-wise, casters do good damage, but they mostly stand out in area of effect damage, as martials have a general advantage in single target damage.
just based on Haste it is about 1/(average BAB) improvement.
Obscuring Mist adds 1/5 penalty (miss chance) and is particularly good at shutting down ranged combat.
DPR wise Blasters are not bad vs groups but the big DPR guys are martials doing one on one.
Spells bypass many defenses and can hobble to neutralize foes, particularly hardened targets. They are instant tactical battlefield control.
RPGs have a story, setting, and challenge plot. Spells can mess with those which is why they can cause GM frustration.
4th
black tentacles
confusion
fear
ice storm
wall of fire
wall of ice
To those add Haste and the Summon Monster spells.
I or one of my party members have won a combat with almost any one of these spells at some point. One of my favorite moments was when my witch cast Web into a hallway of opponents, and then followed that up with Vomit Swarm: Spiders.
From that list alone I’m feeling a strong caster expending a top level spell could consistently account for 1/4 to 1/2 of enemies neutralized in one round (or all in the right circumstance).
Do those estimates seem right?
What about for mid-level spells, reduce enemy effectiveness 1/4?
I or one of my party members have won a combat with almost any one of these spells at some point. One of my favorite moments was when my witch cast Web into a hallway of opponents, and then followed that up with Vomit Swarm: Spiders.
Another favorite moment was when our wizard cast Summon Monster for a Giant Scorpion (which takes a full round), another party member opened the door into a room full of our opponents, my witch cast Sleet Storm, the wizard cast Spiked Pit, and we closed the door and wedged it shut.
So everyone in the room was blind, while the scorpion had tremorsense. Sure, that was three of our best spells on one encounter, but it was the capstone of a module. Between falling into the spiked pit while blindly trying to find the door, and the giant scorpion grabbing & poisoning them we were left with far few opponents.
From that list alone I’m feeling a strong caster expending a top level spell could consistently account for 1/4 to 1/2 of enemies neutralized in one round (or all in the right circumstance).
Do those estimates seem right?
What about for mid-level spells, reduce enemy effectiveness 1/4?
The mid-levels have fewer of these mass/area effect spells. Favorites of mine include: mass debilitating pain, mass suggestion, or mass mydriatic spontenaity. So the Heighten metamagic feat becomes more attractive. You also start to get some of the bleakest single target spells: baleful polymorph, suffocation, dominate person, feeblemind.
You also run into more Spell Resistance, so you need feats like Spell Penetration and eventually Greater Spell Penetration. If you're an int-based caster then a numerology cylinder helps there too.
hmmm, I'm gonna use a spoiler as it's more general Advice
Northern Spotted Owl and I run wizards a bit differently. There are many paths to success.
caster advice:
contrary to blaster belief, power lies in having the right spell for the situation. So wizards just need a bit of flexibility besides their bonded object one spell per day. There are a couple of ways; Pearls of Power for First and Second level recalls, 4-6 Wands of First level spells, Scrolls of uncommon spells and condition removal...
Being clever helps.
there are some two spell combos; Stinking Cloud then Black Tentacles, or Hideous Laughter then anything with a save like Aqueous Orb. Persistent Ear-piercing Scream. Close Range Intensified Shocking Grasp. Close Range Cure Light Wounds. Spectral Hand, Long Arm are also an option.
SR is never a problem as you have several solutions; affect the environment, sure casting, pellet blast or similar conjurations. Notice I left off Spell penetration etc.
Lastly - don't be a target. There are several ways. Illusion of Calm then casting and using Deflect Blame is quite funny.
hmmm, I'm gonna use a spoiler as it's more general Advice
Northern Spotted Owl and I run wizards a bit differently. There are many paths to success.
** spoiler omitted **
While you are “right”, you also make assumptions that may not be true in every game. You don’t always have access to enough spells to add to your spellbook. And you don’t always have enough gold or downtime to have a lot of what you suggest either. I’ve played “starved” wizards before and it’s tough.
While you are “right”, you also make assumptions that may not be true in every game. You don’t always have access to enough spells to add to your spellbook. And you don’t always have enough gold or downtime to have a lot of what you suggest either. I’ve played “starved” wizards before and it’s tough.
yeah... I guess I assumed standard gold and setting along with some system mastery... 8^) I have posted several builds to help people figure out how to build flexible and effective wizards. I've also suggested Cypher Script to reduce the wizard tax and avoid the cost of a blessed book later. I average about 4600gp in spells by 11th level (standard gold is 82000gp at 11th). Cypher script cuts scribing to about 2400gp (3% WBL) at 11th level. (4) First level wands are 3000gp (3.6% WBL).
While there are luddite and low gold campaigns out there, I'd just avoid those GMs rather than vent your frustration online. This is all veering off topic...
While there are luddite and low gold campaigns out there, I'd just avoid those GMs rather than vent your frustration online. This is all veering off topic...
Very bad advice. Tough or challenging campaigns can be quite rewarding.
While there are luddite and low gold campaigns out there, I'd just avoid those GMs rather than vent your frustration online. This is all veering off topic...
Very bad advice. Tough or challenging campaigns can be quite rewarding.
Yes, to the point, for all different campaigns, what is the range of effectiveness of a caster on offense when they dedicate their midrange to high range resources to fight.
Do they speed the combat by a quarter, cut it in half? What is everyone’s range of experiences?
Yes, to the point, for all different campaigns, what is the range of effectiveness of a caster on offense when they dedicate their midrange to high range resources to fight.
Do they speed the combat by a quarter, cut it in half? What is everyone’s range of experiences?
There are just too many variables to answer that question.
How many enemies are there?
How are they arranged?
What are their level differences?
What are their resistances and immunities ?
What are the other characters contributing?
What is the party itemization like?
But I can’t imagine how the caster could make combat worse, unless they are indiscriminately hitting allies with AoE
I’ve been playing a witch from level 5-16 for the last while. I’ve never thought he didn’t hold his own. And intermittently he just wins an encounter with the right spell or hex. But I joined the campaign at level 5, so missed the first few levels when a caster is weakest.
In the absolutely broadest strokes, assuming a caster has been built to focus/specialize in combat, then an offensive caster chucking their high and mid-range spells at every combat is going to be responsible for keeping combats to the 1 to 2 rounds range (3 maybe for the mids).
In this scenario, you expect your caster to either AoE wipe a bunch of minions, put out some kind of powerful crowd/terrain control effect, and/or neutralize/gimp the main baddy. Whatever is left is for the martials and ranged types to clean up, or dog-pile on.
But, to Melkiador's point, there are way to many variables. This assumes the hypothetically near perfect built caster who has access to an appropriate combat spell for every conceivable permutation of encounter. I find that in play, these builds are pretty rare. Also, if by "offensive" casting you mean hit point damage, then the contribution goes down unless dealing with swarms, bands of baddies, or enemies the rest of the party can't hit.
I'm sure there are some non-polymorphing, non-weapon enchanting, pure magic/energy/spell damage builds that can try and compete in the DPR Olympics, but they're exceedingly rare at the tables I've played at.
We may want to specify what we mean by “offensive” too, as both damage and negative status effects count as offensive.
Damage is damage. It gives you a number to call out, which will end or not end an enemy depending on what point you are in the combat. Damage usually feels like you are doing “something”
Debuffs are immediate but hard to judge without a lot of complicated statistics. Some people can’t appreciate the value of something that is so hard to credit in the moment. But this hobby does attract a lot of statisticians who can appreciate the benefits.
Control spells tend to be very binary. They either work and end that enemy threat immediately or don’t work and are wasted. The feel of these can vary dramatically just based on how lucky you are. There are also almost no universal control options, for instance a surprising amount of enemies are immune to paralysis and a well known number of creatures are immune to mind effecting. So, control focused builds have days where they can’t contribute much helpful control.
Lastly, spell resistance or immunity can make most spells not work. That’s why spells that ignore spell resistance are so valued, but those often have their own weaknesses. Some days the caster just has to rely on his martial friends, and that’s ok. This is a team game. It’s fine if your character happens to not be the standout for a few sessions.
what people are grappling with is handled under Game Theory. There are various Strategies that Players can employ. For a given Challenge/Game scenario with a Strategy there will be maximal counter Strategies (no guarantee there's just one), and of course many sub-optimal ones.
It also depends on recognizing the Game Strategy and the how flexible players are in switching Strategies as that will change the probabilistic summations of success/failure. GM fudging is a factor as it comes at a critical time to exert a lag control to prevent a TPK.
In my years of experience as a Player and GM, people are creature of learned habit reinforced by rewards and rarely switch strategies. You might find someone with more than 2-3 tactics (and that's NOT changing strategies, lol). I'll refer you to BF Skinner about this behavior. You can see this clearly in Scenarios #2-11, #2-14, #5-05, #5-20.
To better define it; state the arena size and obstacles, access routes to arena, monsters and number, party classes and levels, Challenge and Goal (martial, skill, puzzle, trap, etc), along with what foes and allies know.
There’s also an issue that the “game” is constantly changing. If you spend a few sessions fighting undead then you may modify your choices for undead, but then suddenly you’re fighting a bunch of plants and your undead choices aren’t working very well, then you hear that fey are coming up, but surprise it’s undead again. That’s why a “theory” wizard is often complained about. You are limited in how much you can prepare for the unknown, because the unknown is so wide and keeps getting wider as the levels increase.
Let's consider a witch at 5th & 8th levels, respectively. We'll give her an int of 20.
Level 5
Uses area control spells, then targets individual opponents with hexes. Has the feat Accursed Hex so she can reuse Slumber when a target successfully saves. Falls back on Misfortune/Cackle for constructs/undead/etc who are immune to Slumber.
Feats: accursed hex
Hexes: slumber, misfortune, cackle
Spells
1st: enlarge person, keyhole, mage armor, sow thought
2nd: blindness, euphoric cloud, web
3rd: sleet storm, summon monster iii
Level 8
Buffs allies via Soothsayer/Protective Luck/Cackle at the start of day and after every encounter. Note that Protective Luck is one of the few hexes without a limitation of 1/day/target.
Hexes: protective luck, soothsayer, cackle, flight
Spells
1st: command, ears of the city, enlarge person, hermean potential, mage armor
2nd: detect thoughts, glitterdust, perceive cues, web
3rd: lightning bolt, summon monster iii, stinking cloud, thorny entanglement
4th: black tentacles, confusion, summon monster iv
I'll contribute 2 wizards and 2 bards for our TWO parties (1 at 5th, 1@11th) of 4 PCs. I find 5th and 11th level are good test points due to class feats, feats, etc.
When I get time I'll update the postings to 5th and 11th levels but the scaling should be easy (famous last words..).
We'll need two Fighters or Paladins.
So some good challenges are;
-> giants: 4 at total CR 8 (for 5th) and 4 at total CR 14 (for 11th) yes APL+3!.
-> demons: 2 at Ttl CR 8, 2 @ Ttl CR 14.
-> elementals: 1 earth 1 magma Ttl CR 8, 1 earth 1 magma Ttl CR 11.
-> Merchants: 5 skill checks; Appr, Diplo, Know:arcn, Sns Mtv, Stlth. DCs are the tricky part here, say DC 20 at 5th then DC 32 at 11th.
-> Undead: 2 corporeal CR8 then 14...
