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The "Core 20" aren't necessarily the strongest gods or whatever, they're just a list of 20 (living) deities that are particularly relevant to the Inner Sea region. Arazni's star is rising for metaplot reasons - a goddess who's patron of those unwillingly cursed or death-touched is going to resonate with a lot of people right now, between the Godsrain scattering curses, blessings and things that are both all over the world (especially Ustalav), and a goddess of the abused, vengeance, and hanging on to your dignity in the worst circumstances has a lot to do when there's a war on.
Exactly. The idea of a "core 20" changes for big regions. Originally, we chose this number back in the early 3.5 days for 2 reasons:
1) We wanted to make sure there were at least 2 choices for every alignment (that got us to 18), then a bonus choice for the two classes that had the strictest alignment restrictions (that got us to 20 by adding a paladin option for LG with Iomedae and a druid option for N with Gozreh). This way, right out of the gate on day 1, players would have more than once OBVIOUS choice for a deity to choose if they wanted one that was their alignment. We always knew that we wanted to introduce more deities eventually, but for time management and the logistics of wordcount we had to limit the initial number we listed in the Rise of the Runelords 16 page player's guide.
2) Since the game we were creating was based on the d20 system, and since d20s are so important to the game, that number felt like the right choice.
Then, more recently, when we decided to kill off Gorum, that left a slot open for the "chaotic neutral" deity, and of the many choices we thought over in-house, Arazni was both the one we liked the best and who we felt filled a missing "gap" in thematics. And replacing Gorum with "just another war god" would have made kiling him off feel like a waste of energy and a glorified name change.
Deities in Pathfinder are not tied in power to their number of worshipers. In theory, a deity with 1 worshiper or even 0 worshipers could be just as powerful or more powerful than a deity with trillions of worshipers on trillions of worlds. The power of those deities CHURCHES would be vastly different, yes, but that's a different thing than the deity themselves.
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With the asterisk that Deities are influenced by their worshipers in some fashion.
For example Baba Yaga figured out how to ascend to godhood millennia ago but refuses to do it because she wants nothing to do with a worshiper connection.
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With the asterisk that Deities are influenced by their worshipers in some fashion.
For example Baba Yaga figured out how to ascend to godhood millennia ago but refuses to do it because she wants nothing to do with a worshiper connection.
Pretty sure that's just because she finds supplicants annoying at the best of times, and imagines/hypothesizes that prayers would be worse. Not because she's afraid of worshippers affecting her personality.
This thread has been enlightening. Thank you for the discussion.
I came here from a weird direction. I am running a Strength of Thousands campaign with seven players. Due to spreading the experience points among more than four players and not able to plausibly increase the size or difficulty of every encounter to make up for that, I have been adding extra events to Strength of Thousands, such as a sequel to the 2008 module River into Darkness. My current additional event is that the party will assist in the preparations for the Convocation of Rival Academies featured in Lost Omens: Rival Academies. That book has a chapter about having PCs attend the Convocation, but Strength of Thousands starts four years before the Convocation and even after the first two modules, it is still three years in the future. Thus, they will help with preparing the Magaambya's biggest display at the Convocation, the Tree of Stories. The PCs will help transplant a kapok tree from the Magaambya campus in the Mwangi Expanse to the Academy of the Reclamation in Mendev, 2,500 miles away.
That is beyond the abilities of the spellcasting teachers currently named at the Magaambya, who can manage 1,000-mile 7th-rank Teleport spells but not the longer-range 8th-level ones. But I once ran Rise of the Runelords, and continued that campaign to 20th level with The Witchwar Legacy. All my past campaigns are canon to my present campaign. Furthermore, the Sihedron Spires, a New Thassilon academy, will participate in the Convocation, so they have connections to my Rise of the Runelords characters. The new PCs could team up with the old PCs--I have two current players who participated in the previous campaign. This would add the flavor of yet another academy to the adventure. I have done a team-up before between Rise of the Runelords and Jade Regent: What Happens to the Former Heroes of Adventure Paths, comment #24.
However, I did not run the 2018 adventure path Return of the Runelords. I read the entry on Belimarius and Sorshen in Lost Omens: Legends, but that does not tell give me enough information about their personalities for their encounter with the 20th-level Rise of the Runelords PCs in my incarnation of Golarion. I mostly need to tell the tale of whether the ancient runelords fought or cooperated. And I remembered seeing this thread about Sorshen, so I am here to learn.
I wonder if Sorshen will stop being the Runelord of Lust and return to being the runelord of Love before the virtues were corrupted into vices?
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Creative Director
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I wonder if Sorshen will stop being the Runelord of Lust and return to being the runelord of Love before the virtues were corrupted into vices?
She's already abandoned that title and now goes by "Queen Sorshen." She no longer identifies as a runelord (although she still follows the themes and NPC-facing rules for her stats). (She was also NEVER a runelord of love—no runelords of the virtues ever existed, as they came into being only after the corruption of those elements into the sinful versions during the early days of Thassilon.)
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Pretty sure that's just because she finds supplicants annoying at the best of times, and imagines/hypothesizes that prayers would be worse. Not because she's afraid of worshippers affecting her personality.With the asterisk that Deities are influenced by their worshipers in some fashion.
For example Baba Yaga figured out how to ascend to godhood millennia ago but refuses to do it because she wants nothing to do with a worshiper connection.
It's also part of Baba Yaga's style that if you come to her to make a bargain, if she vaguely approves of what you're after she will offer you what you want for a price that is fair from her perspective and astronomical from anybody else's (and if you pay it, she keeps her word). But having to do this for a very small number of people who have the temerity to ask Baba Yaga for something, and having to do it for a potentially unlimited number of worshipers is something entirely different.
Part of her likes rendering incredibly cruel vengeance on a party who has wronged someone who is paying her an exorbitant rate, and she'd be sad to give it up entirely. Like it's a core part of her role in folklore that "sometimes she helps."
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Pretty sure that's just because she finds supplicants annoying at the best of times, and imagines/hypothesizes that prayers would be worse. Not because she's afraid of worshippers affecting her personality.With the asterisk that Deities are influenced by their worshipers in some fashion.
For example Baba Yaga figured out how to ascend to godhood millennia ago but refuses to do it because she wants nothing to do with a worshiper connection.
It's also part of Baba Yaga's style that if you come to her to make a bargain, if she vaguely approves of what you're after she will offer you what you want for a price that is fair from her perspective and astronomical from anybody else's (and if you pay it, she keeps her word). But having to do this for a very small number of people who have the temerity to ask Baba Yaga for something, and having to do it for a potentially unlimited number of worshipers is something entirely different.
Part of her likes rendering incredibly cruel vengeance on a party who has wronged someone who is paying her an exorbitant rate, and she'd be sad to give it up entirely. Like it's a core part of her role in folklore that "sometimes she helps."
Also, the people who approach her generally risk a lot just to do it. People that resourceful and/or desperate might actually be worth the trouble. If she ascends, people can bother her whenever they like. She's not obligated to respond to any of them, but the flood would be a pain to manage.
Besides, she's at a point where she can play on a basically divine level without being bound by those rules. Why surrender most of the freedom if you already have most of the power?
However, I did not run the 2018 adventure path Return of the Runelords. I read the entry on Belimarius and Sorshen in Lost Omens: Legends, but that does not tell give me enough information about their personalities for their encounter with the 20th-level Rise of the Runelords PCs in my incarnation of Golarion. I mostly need to tell the tale of whether the ancient runelords fought or cooperated. And I remembered seeing this thread about Sorshen, so I am here to learn.
If you have the books and don't want to spoil yourself because of the eventuality that you might run this AP as a player someday, I recommend looking into book 3 of Return of the Runelords, Runeplague. It has an extended section where the party deals with Sorshen in person (so to speak) and gives a good insight into her current personality.
...which smells like Paizo bias to me...To be fair, every choice we make in what we publish in our books is driven by "Paizo bias." That's been in place since day 1 of Paizo.
And I'm all for it!
(Especially your & Mona's Gygaxian leanings.In the RPG sphere, not political.)
*sis, boom, rah!*
I wonder if Sorshen will stop being the Runelord of Lust and return to being the runelord of Love before the virtues were corrupted into vices?She's already abandoned that title and now goes by "Queen Sorshen." She no longer identifies as a runelord (although she still follows the themes and NPC-facing rules for her stats). (She was also NEVER a runelord of love—no runelords of the virtues ever existed, as they came into being only after the corruption of those elements into the sinful versions during the early days of Thassilon.)
I thought that they were appointed the runelords of those virtues but then corrupted it into the sins. But cool. I am looking forward to learning more about her and new Thasilion in revenge of the Runelords.
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Creative Director
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I thought that they were appointed the runelords of those virtues but then corrupted it into the sins. But cool. I am looking forward to learning more about her and new Thasilion in revenge of the Runelords.I wonder if Sorshen will stop being the Runelord of Lust and return to being the runelord of Love before the virtues were corrupted into vices?She's already abandoned that title and now goes by "Queen Sorshen." She no longer identifies as a runelord (although she still follows the themes and NPC-facing rules for her stats). (She was also NEVER a runelord of love—no runelords of the virtues ever existed, as they came into being only after the corruption of those elements into the sinful versions during the early days of Thassilon.)
From Revenge of the Runelords' timeline (this can help clear things up I hope):
But even then, those seven were not nice people. They were already harboring evil in their hearts—in some cases more than others. Xin kinda left them to thier own devices and increasingly retreated into his own "bubble" of research and such, and the old saying of "absolute power corrupts absolutely" immediately set in to work with those first seven runelords increasingly falling into their sins instead of their virtues, so they never really epitomized the virtues at all. But at first, they were probably pretty quiet and secretive about their evil plots.
That was more or less the state of things for the next 60 years, until in -6420, the runelords (who by this point were all deep into evil mode) engineered Xin's assassination.
During those first 60 years of their rule, things were probably not THAT bad in Thassilon, but the runelords were for sure self-serving villians who consistently put personal power and the pursuit of immortality and their own sin before the good of the land.
Xin had good intentions by setting it up this way, but his primary character flaw of "I don't want to do the hard work of ruling a nation and would rather just do my own thing" is the thing that allowed the runelords to have the resources and lack of oversight and power they needed to deep dive into their already existing various incarnations of evil.
This is sort of tangentially related; in at least Shattered Star there was a significant amount of Thassilonian clockwork (at least in the last book, if I remember correctly). How does this differ from the style used in Alkenstar? Are there any aesthetic differences or unique looks that would identify a Thassilonian clockwork from an Alkenstar type? On that note, how common were they in the day to day? Would it be likely that Sorshen may have some salvaged/rebuilt in this day and age or have they likely moved on from that whole thing?
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Creative Director
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Clockwork stuff was for sure a part of Thassilon stuff. Sorshen has clockwork stuff also for sure.
As for artistic differences, yeah there for sure should be differences between ancient Thassilon and modern Alkenstar... but that level of detail is something we haven't really touched upon in our clockwork art, which tends to be pretty homogenized in how things look. Personally, I feel like the Thassilon stuff should look more artistic and the Alkenstar more rough and gritty, but as they say, your mileage may vary.
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If not for his religious ties to an evil goddess, I would have been amused to have Krune be the Runelord who loses interest in all the work, paranoia and micro-management needed to be an evil overlord of a bunch of treacherous backstabbing underlings.
It just feels appropriately slothful for the runelord of sloth to slide out of evil, and give his people more rights and responsibilities, letting more and more 'work', including the 'work' of running the place, slide to others, because he just doesn't really want to put that much effort into it, unlike the runelords of pride (who *must* be the best at everything) or envy (who is going to be a paranoid micro-manager *anyway*). Not at all a 'redemption arc,' more of a 'eh, evil, too much work.'
Of the three 'hot babes get redeemed' stories, Sorshen's doesn't feel terribly redeem-y, and also feels more real to me than Noticula's. She's supposed to be super-intelligent, and a pivot to 'totes not the big bad at the end of the AP! don't kill me, bros!' makes sense.
(I don't think Arazni's story really fits the 'redemption' narrative, either. She was turned into an undead against her will after being bound and thrown into a fight by the knights who were supposed to serve her. And per the rules at the time, being turned undead comes with a side-bonus of always evil, so she never had a choice. The hot second she did, she dumped Evil like her clingy ex who ghosted her because his boyfriend left him.)
Huh. I wonder if Arazni ever got her old organs back that the Knights of Ozem snuck out in attempt to destroy her (the Bloodstones of Arazni)? Or if they are still out there, and represent a possible tie to her / weakness to be exploited / source of mythic power / potential new horrible way the knights could use to betray her all over again (because she's not as 'good' as they want her to be)?
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Of the three 'hot babes get redeemed' stories, Sorshen's doesn't feel terribly redeem-y, and also feels more real to me than Noticula's. She's supposed to be super-intelligent, and a pivot to 'totes not the big bad at the end of the AP! don't kill me, bros!' makes sense.
It falls squarely in line with Nocticula's ethos, which is "I can't possibly atone for a millenium (or many multiple millenia in case of Nocticula) of bloodshed, but I can stop doing evil and start helping people instead". Which is a concept many people can't really grok, who are used to redemption as a concept where the person who atones first humbles her/himself into a lesser station than s/he used to hold, which is why Sorshen's redemption probably feels unearned to them.
I personally say that with great power comes great opportunity to do good and Sorshen setting up a kingdom where exiles and artists are welcome to live safely from people who persecute them is something someone of lesser power could not have done in the first place.
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I personally say that with great power comes great opportunity to do good and Sorshen setting up a kingdom where exiles and artists are welcome to live safely from people who persecute them is something someone of lesser power could not have done in the first place.
In fact these are dime a dozen in the Lost Omens Campaign Setting. Magnimar and Kaer Maga are two such, and they're even in the Saga Lands. Others include Nantambu, Lamasara, Kintargo, Vyre, and Pitax. There is little substantial difference in hospitality or freedom of expression as between them, or between them on the one hand and modern Xin-Shalast on the other; the most substantial difference is that Xin-Shalast is ruled by Sorshen and the others are not.
I personally say that with great power comes great opportunity to do good and Sorshen setting up a kingdom where exiles and artists are welcome to live safely from people who persecute them is something someone of lesser power could not have done in the first place.In fact these are dime a dozen in the Lost Omens Campaign Setting. Magnimar and Kaer Maga are two such, and they're even in the Saga Lands. Others include Nantambu, Lamasara, Kintargo, Vyre, and Pitax. There is little substantial difference in hospitality or freedom of expression as between them, or between them on the one hand and modern Xin-Shalast on the other; the most substantial difference is that Xin-Shalast is ruled by Sorshen and the others are not.
So, you object to another kingdom which does good for people and exists as a counterbalance for the more conqueror-like rulers in the area (including Belimarius and some Linnorm Kings) coming into existance? "There are other decent places in the world, somewhere else" is not really a good argument, IMO. Also Kaer Maga does have some vampires secretly ruling over it, IIRC.
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So, you object to another kingdom which does good for people and exists as a counterbalance for the more conqueror-like rulers in the area (including Belimarius and some Linnorm Kings) coming into existance? "There are other decent places in the world, somewhere else" is not really a good argument, IMO. Also Kaer Maga does have some vampires secretly ruling over it, IIRC.I personally say that with great power comes great opportunity to do good and Sorshen setting up a kingdom where exiles and artists are welcome to live safely from people who persecute them is something someone of lesser power could not have done in the first place.In fact these are dime a dozen in the Lost Omens Campaign Setting. Magnimar and Kaer Maga are two such, and they're even in the Saga Lands. Others include Nantambu, Lamasara, Kintargo, Vyre, and Pitax. There is little substantial difference in hospitality or freedom of expression as between them, or between them on the one hand and modern Xin-Shalast on the other; the most substantial difference is that Xin-Shalast is ruled by Sorshen and the others are not.
I object to the idea that it is somehow unique or special and required Sorshen's unique or special intervention to bring it into being or Sorshen's unique or special qualities to preserve it against the slings and arrows of the world. Because that would be what is necessary to justify her continuing to rule her own realm instead of settling down somewhere similar where she was not the absolute autocrat.
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I have not seen Sorshen repent her past ways, which is why it does not feel like redemption to me. More like a self-serving move to stop being a target to anti-Runelords "heroes".
And it's true that "don't ask about the atrocities I did to get to my current power, just look at all the non-evil / good things I'm doing now with it" feels more like an easy way out than a real attempt to cope with the consequences of her evil acts.
Finally, if power corrupts, she should definitely get as far from it as possible. Which is not what she's doing.
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I object to the idea that it is somehow unique or special and required Sorshen's unique or special intervention to bring it into being or Sorshen's unique or special qualities to preserve it against the slings and arrows of the world. Because that would be what is necessary to justify her continuing to rule her own realm instead of settling down somewhere similar where she was not the absolute autocrat.
Okay, then. I guess her new realm would have spontaneously appeared then in one of the most inhospitable areas of the world, perfectly suitable to human life and a haven to people who need a refuge. <shrug> Sorry, I don't share this viewpoint at all. Absolute autocrats are there all over the world on Golarion and most of the few places which have some sort of other government are deeply flawed as well from a modern democractic viewpoint (as are our current governments, but there you go).
I have not seen Sorshen repent her past ways, which is why it does not feel like redemption to me. More like a self-serving move to stop being a target to anti-Runelords "heroes".
And it's true that "don't ask about the atrocities I did to get to my current power, just look at all the non-evil / good things I'm doing now with it" feels more like an easy way out than a real attempt to cope with the consequences of her evil acts.
Finally, if power corrupts, she should definitely get as far from it as possible. Which is not what she's doing.
Alright, a valid point, but one which I don't share. Yeah, it's an easier way of redeeming oneself than the standard one, but it works on people who otherwise would have stayed evil and continued harming innocents. It's all nice to have a lofty moral perch to moralize from, but if one demon follows Nocticula's example and just stops doing evil, that's hundreds or thousands of souls who will not go to the Abyss, erm, Outer Rifts in the future.
And people who have so much power as Sorshen can do more good if they use it from a position where they can exert influence, i.e. as a ruler of a realm. It's, for example, why I preferred the Empress ending to Witcher 3 to the Witcher ending.
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Huh. I wonder if Arazni ever got her old organs back that the Knights of Ozem snuck out in attempt to destroy her (the Bloodstones of Arazni)? Or if they are still out there, and represent a possible tie to her / weakness to be exploited / source of mythic power / potential new horrible way the knights could use to betray her all over again (because she's not as 'good' as they want her to be)?I think this question gets answered in Claws of the Tyrant, but I haven't looked all the way through it yet.
According to PathfinderWiki :
"The Bloodstones continue to exist after Arazni's ascension to goddesshood, which transformed her remains; each Bloodstone now takes on an aspect of Arazni's divinity."