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A fighter trains hard with armor and weapons to become a master. A wizard studies diligently to uncover deeper mysteries of the universe. A cleric prays and strives to prove to their deity that they are worthy of greater power and all the responsibility that comes with it. Rogues continually exploit their situation to get the upper hand ever reaching for the next big score, easy mark, or soft target. And then there's the sorcerer...doing nothing.
Everyone has a means of increasing their powers and abilities. But what does a sorcerer do to increase their innate powers? Increase their blood? Simply grow older? Relieve wisdom from a potential-unlocking mentor? Put on a montage?
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Training and learning how to use their powers better.
They don't lift weights, but rather train using their spells. Think of most shonen anime how the protagonist usually train on how to use their techniques more efficiently and/or learn new ones. After all, the sorcerer doesn't begin knowing 10th-rank spells, so its clear they need to somehow learn or "unlock" those. Harry Potter is also another example since there being a wizard is something that comes innately but they still need to learn and practice.
Learn how to channel their blood more effectively and study the spells they find or other casters use they learn to cast using the innate magic in their blood.
It's like how other classes need to do things to Refocus, but a Sorcerer can just chill. "... you can Refocus without any special effort." Or one can imagine that adventure gets one's blood going...literally. And as exequiel mentioned, there are all the anime styles of unlocking one's hereditary/potential, often with lots of suffering, noise, emotion, or exposure to conflicting or sympathetic energies/beings/dimensions. Lots of ways one can flavor it, with more depending on campaign events.
If you think too hard on magic you can find all of it not making sense.
Like how does charisma actually play into casting power?
Actually maybe I thought of something. Like how dragons have a presence that just causes fear. Roughly presence can be thought of as force of personality, theirs is just supernatural. Sorcerers must be like that. The supernatural blood in their veins depends on their ability to command dominion over it through force of presence. So they improve it by talking to themselves in a hand mirror to improve their personality lol.
Or its nothing like that. We have to make it all up anyway.
Like how does charisma actually play into casting power?
Charisma usually represents "force of personality" and "willpower" in TTRPG / D&D terms, so in contrast to a wizard that uses intellect, the sorcerer imposes their will. This is the same principle why thaumaturges are charisma-based and not intelligence-based, since their shtick is to bend reality.
It could be argued magic as a whole is the act to bend reality, but at least in D&D the wizard was always seen more like a sort magical scientist than someone with a connection to the supernatural if you think about it. All other casters get their magic from somewhere (animists from their apparitions, bards from their muses, clerics from their gods, druis from nature, oracles from their curses, psychics from their...traumas?, sorcerers from their bloodlines, summoners from their connection with their eidolon, and witches from their patron). The wizard (and the magus, which is a half-wizard in practice) is the only class that doesn't need such connection.
This is something I think the current six attribute destribution doesn't do well, which is to convey what the attribute is about just from their name alone. If you think about it, Perception is Wis-based because its attribute represents self-awareness, though it was simplified to mean "awareness" in a more general way, even though Dexterity could make more sense for it since assessing your surroundings fast is also important. In contrast, since Perception is Wis-based, Stealth could also be Wis-based as well since even if you could hide fast it doesn't matter much if you hide in a bad spot, which is something Wisdom (or Intelligence) could help with.
Strength and Constitution have a ton of thematic overlap if you think about too, which people often forget about because we are kinda "wired" to think Constitution is the HP and Fortitude stat and that's it. To some extent it happens with Intelligence and Wisdom too, though not as much as with Strength and Constitution.
I would love if PF3e went with newer (and fewer) stats to convey their theme in a more efficient way than the current attribute distribution, plus further differentiate itself from its D&D roots which I think its likely going to be a given since thats the approach that even PF2e is taking right now.
They grow into their power, much like dragons do. Or their soul becomes more in tune with the spiritual power it contains. Or they refine the essence of their blood. Or they draw strength from the blood of those they defeat. Or they succumb to the dark influences granting them power. Or they study diligently to uncover the deeper mysteries of their own self. Or they gradually master subsequent aspects of their own magic with each building on the last.
... Also, Paizo answered this in the Sorcerer description. "Self-reflection and study allow you to refine your inherent magical skills and unlock new, more powerful abilities."
Sorcerers really would make more sense as a Con-based class. Taxing their blood, literally glowing with magic as they fling spells, and they train to better resist the damage from their own power.
They level up.
Player Core 2 says this in the introduction text to sorcerer:
"Self-reflection and study allow you to refine your inherent magical skills and unlock new, more powerful abilities."
So study is still a thing for sorcerers, but it's also tied to reflecting on the self because the self is where the magic comes from.
Like how does charisma actually play into casting power?Charisma usually represents "force of personality" and "willpower" in TTRPG / D&D terms, so in contrast to a wizard that uses intellect, the sorcerer imposes their will. This is the same principle why thaumaturges are charisma-based and not intelligence-based, since their shtick is to bend reality.
It could be argued magic as a whole is the act to bend reality, but at least in D&D the wizard was always seen more like a sort magical scientist than someone with a connection to the supernatural if you think about it. All other casters get their magic from somewhere (animists from their apparitions, bards from their muses, clerics from their gods, druis from nature, oracles from their curses, psychics from their...traumas?, sorcerers from their bloodlines, summoners from their connection with their eidolon, and witches from their patron). The wizard (and the magus, which is a half-wizard in practice) is the only class that doesn't need such connection.
This is something I think the current six attribute destribution doesn't do well, which is to convey what the attribute is about just from their name alone. If you think about it, Perception is Wis-based because its attribute represents self-awareness, though it was simplified to mean "awareness" in a more general way, even though Dexterity could make more sense for it since assessing your surroundings fast is also important. In contrast, since Perception is Wis-based, Stealth could also be Wis-based as well since even if you could hide fast it doesn't matter much if you hide in a bad spot, which is something Wisdom (or Intelligence) could help with.
Strength and Constitution have a ton of thematic overlap if you think about too, which people often forget about because we are kinda "wired" to think Constitution is the HP and Fortitude stat and that's it. To some extent it happens with Intelligence and Wisdom too, though not as much as with Strength and Constitution....
I played at a table which house ruled you could apply charisma or wisdom to your will save because force of personality not being used for will power is hella weird. We wound up letting intelligence be applied too for balance.
Taking that a step further and replacing the core ability scores... If you chose to have ability scores at all, you could probably chop them down for the three saves. Call them Strength, Dexterity, and Mental or something. Roll strength and con together, and all three mental stats together. If you wanted to maintain some legacy resemblance toward the old ways, you could bring back class skills, so wizards would get a higher bonus on the former intelligence skills, clerics to wisdom skills, etc.
...Like how does charisma actually play into casting power?Charisma usually represents "force of personality" and "willpower" in TTRPG / D&D terms, so in contrast to a wizard that uses intellect, the sorcerer imposes their will. This is the same principle why thaumaturges are charisma-based and not intelligence-based, since their shtick is to bend reality.
It could be argued magic as a whole is the act to bend reality, but at least in D&D the wizard was always seen more like a sort magical scientist than someone with a connection to the supernatural if you think about it. All other casters get their magic from somewhere (animists from their apparitions, bards from their muses, clerics from their gods, druis from nature, oracles from their curses, psychics from their...traumas?, sorcerers from their bloodlines, summoners from their connection with their eidolon, and witches from their patron). The wizard (and the magus, which is a half-wizard in practice) is the only class that doesn't need such connection.
This is something I think the current six attribute destribution doesn't do well, which is to convey what the attribute is about just from their name alone. If you think about it, Perception is Wis-based because its attribute represents self-awareness, though it was simplified to mean "awareness" in a more general way, even though Dexterity could make more sense for it since assessing your surroundings fast is also important. In contrast, since Perception is Wis-based, Stealth could also be Wis-based as well since even if you could hide fast it doesn't matter much if you hide in a bad spot, which is something Wisdom (or Intelligence) could help with.
Strength and Constitution have a ton of thematic overlap if you think about too, which people often forget about because we are kinda "wired" to think Constitution is the HP and Fortitude stat and that's it. To some extent it happens with Intelligence and Wisdom too, though not as much as
I think it was Teridax in very old post that said that he wanted (or thought, I don't remember if he actually wanted it or not) that PF3e could ditch attributes altogether and use proficiencies. I remember I wasn't with them on that one back then, but now I actually kinda dig that idea a little bit. I still think it kinda removes a bit of the flavor it comes from seeing your character sheet and immediately knowing your character is agile because it has a high Dex modifier or smart because they have a high Int modifier, but in a system made with that in mind from the start it probably wouldn't feel like it as much since the solution would likely been implemented.
I also think Fortitude / Reflex / Will could work too, but something like Might (Str + Con), Agility (Dexterity), Insight (Intelligence + Wisdom), and Personality (Charisma) would be fine as well. Make it so Personality governs Will saves so Insight doesn't become an uber stat and it would likely be fine. This would also make it so there would be one attribute per defense (Might for Fortitude, Agility for Reflex, Personality for Will, and Insight for Perception) which is nice symmetry.
Anyways, this was a huge off-topic.
I usually think of two options for how to consider a Sorcerer's magical prowess (aka level):
1. Sorcerers have to practice imposing their will on their inherent magical-ness. It's about their technique (perhaps visualizing or simply believing what they want to happen) and efficiency of effort. This makes it relate similarly to everyone else's training. You don't get better unless you practice.
2. What Sorcerers are actually practicing is how to channel the magic being poured into their via their blood into useful effects. As they go, that magic being poured in just gets stronger and stronger. It's not a matter of practicing to get better, it's a matter of learning how to control or simply not die from what is inside you. Your progress isn't up to you, your survival is.
I've always thought of CHA as some magical analog to CON.
I'm imagining the sorcerer being questioned about how they practice and answering in the vein of
And then there's Ferrari and Le Tigre. Le Tigre's a lot softer. It's a bit more of a catalogue look. I use it for footwear sometimes.
I guess sorcerers cant turn left?
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If you think too hard on magic you can find all of it not making sense.
Like how does charisma actually play into casting power?
IMO, Charisma would be great for a character who has to bargain or negotiate (or propitiate a deity or something) to maintain or advance their power, like a witch who has a patron they have to bargain (or a familiar that represents a connection to that patron that they have to convince to both grant them their daily bread, but also that they are ready for the next grander course). This was not the case in PF1, the witch and their patron were generally more of an abstraction and just sort of a name attached to a selection of bonus spells added to their list, not an actual entity that they had to make a pact with or follow some sort of taboos or anathema or doctrines to bargain with.
Charisma feels less like 'willpower' to me, than ability to interact with others and sense of self-worth.
Willpower would, IMO, map to Wisdom, with it's bonus to Will saves. And also fit with the use in PF1, where dwarves had a wisdom bonus, but a charisma penalty, and yet were stubborn as heck!
As for Sorcerer's training, 'use it or ya lose it.' Just as exercising muscles can grow bigger muscles, just as exercising your mind can grow your memory and critical thinking skills, perhaps exercising the magic in your blood can make you better at drawing on that magic, able to access deeper wells of that magic.
It's obviously not a real world thing, but it can follow real world precedents. Use it or lose it. Keep using it, find new ways to use it, keep getting incrementally better at using it.
If you think too hard on magic you can find all of it not making sense.
Like how does charisma actually play into casting power?IMO, Charisma would be great for a character who has to bargain or negotiate (or propitiate a deity or something) to maintain or advance their power, like a witch who has a patron they have to bargain (or a familiar that represents a connection to that patron that they have to convince to both grant them their daily bread, but also that they are ready for the next grander course). This was not the case in PF1, the witch and their patron were generally more of an abstraction and just sort of a name attached to a selection of bonus spells added to their list, not an actual entity that they had to make a pact with or follow some sort of taboos or anathema or doctrines to bargain with.
Charisma feels less like 'willpower' to me, than ability to interact with others and sense of self-worth.
Willpower would, IMO, map to Wisdom, with it's bonus to Will saves. And also fit with the use in PF1, where dwarves had a wisdom bonus, but a charisma penalty, and yet were stubborn as heck!
As for Sorcerer's training, 'use it or ya lose it.' Just as exercising muscles can grow bigger muscles, just as exercising your mind can grow your memory and critical thinking skills, perhaps exercising the magic in your blood can make you better at drawing on that magic, able to access deeper wells of that magic.
It's obviously not a real world thing, but it can follow real world precedents. Use it or lose it. Keep using it, find new ways to use it, keep getting incrementally better at using it.
That all makes sense to me.
Wisdom feels like it governs willpower and self control while cha governs presence and influence over others.
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1. Sorcerers have to practice imposing their will on their inherent magical-ness. It's about their technique (perhaps visualizing or simply believing what they want to happen) and efficiency of effort. This makes it relate similarly to everyone else's training. You don't get better unless you practice.
...
Now I'm picturing a sorcerer like a father or mother driving the car, talking to the magic and blood cells in the back as they are fighting.
"This is my body you two and if you don't listen to, so help me Goddess, I will turn this body right around and out of this combat!"
People get hung up on "willpower" because of will saves, but charisma is about one's external influence, while wisdom is about how the external influences one's self. Sorcerers' power coming from charisma is the ability to impose their own desires, or "self", on the world around them. Hmmm... it might be interesting to play a sorcerer who leans into that a bit, representing how the bloodline is in some way the origin continuing to exert influence through the medium of their inheritors.
Or it might be interesting to consider what it means for a sorcerer to be weak, in terms of cautionary tales. Sorcerers too concerned about the impact they might have on others that they never had any impact at all, or ones too uncertain of themselves and thus incapable of growing. On the flipside, those who subsumed themselves in the identity that their blood provided them, without examining what they were beyond that.
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Or it might be interesting to consider what it means for a sorcerer to be weak, in terms of cautionary tales. Sorcerers too concerned about the impact they might have on others that they never had any impact at all, or ones too uncertain of themselves and thus incapable of growing. On the flipside, those who subsumed themselves in the identity that their blood provided them, without examining what they were beyond that.
That feels like what happens with early kobolds, so terribly insecure about being *kobolds,* that they self-identified as 'dragons' to sound cooler and scarier and more worthy of respect, which still didn't count for much, because *they didn't respect themselves,* only the 'no, I'm really related to dragons!' tag they'd appropriated.
Or really, anyone who overidentifies with their family name (or national identity or job title or cultural heritage), but has no real accomplishments (or pride in same) of their own, to be proud of, in their own name.
It would be interesting to see someone so wrapped up in their sorcerous heritage (or witch patron, or whatever) as to lose much of their self-identity, and over-identify with that bloodline or patron, because they never really figured out how to like or respect that person in the mirror.
Or it might be interesting to consider what it means for a sorcerer to be weak, in terms of cautionary tales. Sorcerers too concerned about the impact they might have on others that they never had any impact at all, or ones too uncertain of themselves and thus incapable of growing. On the flipside, those who subsumed themselves in the identity that their blood provided them, without examining what they were beyond that.That feels like what happens with early kobolds, so terribly insecure about being *kobolds,* that they self-identified as 'dragons' to sound cooler and scarier and more worthy of respect, which still didn't count for much, because *they didn't respect themselves,* only the 'no, I'm really related to dragons!' tag they'd appropriated.
Or really, anyone who overidentifies with their family name (or national identity or job title or cultural heritage), but has no real accomplishments (or pride in same) of their own, to be proud of, in their own name.
It would be interesting to see someone so wrapped up in their sorcerous heritage (or witch patron, or whatever) as to lose much of their self-identity, and over-identify with that bloodline or patron, because they never really figured out how to like or respect that person in the mirror.
Funnily enough, dragon bloodline is definitely the one that comes to mind for this. Most of the draconic bloodline sorcerers I've seen have been fixated on it to a degree that overshadowed other characterization, but it wasn't really something that was examined.
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Funnily enough, dragon bloodline is definitely the one that comes to mind for this. Most of the draconic bloodline sorcerers I've seen have been fixated on it to a degree that overshadowed other characterization, but it wasn't really something that was examined.
True. It seems like Abyssal/Infernal (or Aberrant, or Undead) bloodline sorcerers are as likely to be ashamed of / hiding their connections. Fey, Elemental and Celestial seem at least a bit more likely to be visibly proud of their ties to those critters.
Arcane is an interesting choice, because it could represent someone who is the descendant of prominent wizards, but is themself a sorcerer, and has a bit of a complex about not being a wizard/scholar like their famous grams, or veering off in the other direction and touting themself as being inherently magical, an *evolution* of, and improvement upon, their famous wizardly ancestors, who had to to pore over books and study until their eyes bled to master the arcane secrets that are just inherent to your blood and come naturally to you. The Arcane sorcerer could go in either direction, thinking themself the deliberate end result of generations of wizardly study, to produce the 'inherent' arcane bloodline, someone who lives and breathes magic, and doesn't need to study it, or someone who lacks the ability to master it like a 'real wizard' who can learn *any* spell, given time, and limited to only a few 'tricks in the blood' by comparison, focusing instead on limitations like delayed progression, small number of spells known, slow use of metamagic, etc. to obsess on the ways in which their wizard peers are 'better.'
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A fighter trains hard with armor and weapons to become a master. A wizard studies diligently to uncover deeper mysteries of the universe. A cleric prays and strives to prove to their deity that they are worthy of greater power and all the responsibility that comes with it. Rogues continually exploit their situation to get the upper hand ever reaching for the next big score, easy mark, or soft target. And then there's the sorcerer...doing nothing.
Everyone has a means of increasing their powers and abilities. But what does a sorcerer do to increase their innate powers? Increase their blood? Simply grow older? Relieve wisdom from a potential-unlocking mentor? Put on a montage?
Do your sorcerers not receive regular blood transfusions from increasingly powerful and esoteric members of their bloodline?
Ah, or maybe they're taking the bloatmage route and increasing their own blood supply. That must be it.
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Player Core 2 says this in the introduction text to sorcerer:
"Self-reflection and study allow you to refine your inherent magical skills and unlock new, more powerful abilities."
So study is still a thing for sorcerers, but it's also tied to reflecting on the self because the self is where the magic comes from.
I know you're not supposed to be this obnoxiously literal but now I can't get rid of the mental image of a Sorcerer who improves their powers by literal study of their self's reflection in a mirror to the point where Narcissus himself thinks it's a bit tacky! XD
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I mean they are charisma based, vanity isn't much of a stretch.
Listen, The Sims has taught me that looking into a mirror is how you increase Cha, just like lifting weights for Str or reading books for Int. As we all know, The Sims is an authority on the subject.I know you're not supposed to be this obnoxiously literal but now I can't get rid of the mental image of a Sorcerer who improves their powers by literal study of their self's reflection in a mirror to the point where Narcissus himself thinks it's a bit tacky! XDPlayer Core 2 says this in the introduction text to sorcerer:
"Self-reflection and study allow you to refine your inherent magical skills and unlock new, more powerful abilities."
So study is still a thing for sorcerers, but it's also tied to reflecting on the self because the self is where the magic comes from.
I think you can spin a pretty good character out of it, probably with the hag bloodline going for a bit of a "the Queen from Snow White" vibe.