I loathe the Mutagen design

[Christopher#2411504]

The more I look at mutagens, the more I loathe the very design.
I was hoping you would get around to fixing that in the Remaster, but maybe nobody every told you of the issues? Or I am the only one that considers them issues?

As I see the Mutagens:
1. They are balanced by being Consumables (meaning they cost money or limited class Feature space to even have).
2. They are balanced by being Polymoprh (and thus mutually exclusive with each other and several spells).
3. They are balanced by needing up to 2 Actions to apply (Draw and Drink) or being applied before combat or require a extra Item (Collar of the Shifting Spider) and the Initiative Roll Free Action to apply.
4. They are balanced by giving barely a bonus 1 higher then permanent Items for that level.

But apparently that wasn't enough for balancing. You had to also:
5. Give them a downside. You don't gave most Potions, Elixirs or Spells a downside. Yet for some reason every mutagen must have one.
6. You make the downside a Item penalty, a penalty that is used practically nowhere else (so we keep forgetting about them).
7. Make them so excessively complex. I don't even try to use them without Foundry, because only a computer could hope keeping track of all the very specific bonuses, penalties and effects.

As a Alchemist for any given group, 90% aren't even worth getting the formula for.
And even if by some miracle one of the Formulas is worth getting as Alchemist for this group, it is still a judgement call every time if we actually want to use one. And the answer is way to often "No".
Forget tying to use them in Soceity Play.

[Trip.H]

Yup, only some of the later-added mutagens really are "game changing" enough to be a commonly used buff, imo.

There are a few that offer effects exclusive to them. Stone Body is the main one, as gaining slash & pierce resistance is generally quite nice, and can be an absurdly potent in the right circumstances.

If you have Combine Elixir, you can actually make a double-mutagen and be under 2 mutagen effects completely RaW
(explicit mention is hiding in a Mutagenist ability: "... If you have more than one [mutagen] drawback due to Combine Elixirs or a similar..." )

.

The lack of adding new options/unique effects is why most mutagens are indeed not worth using. But, everything is contextual.

Drakeheart gains in value dramatically when PCs that are not AC capped. Energy Mutagen is genuinely great to block against an elemental-using foe, who may not resist their own element.

I find it to be a trap to "main" any one mutagen, as using them for passive effects tends to be their worst-case scenario, but a fusion of Quicksilver and Stone Body makes for a good enough default for one of my PCs to be presently "sustaining" it with 10min VVials.

[QuidEst]

1. Mutagens don't cost much money. A level 3 mutagen is 12 gp. Compared to a permanent item of that level, you're getting a bundle of four or five.

2. Being polymorph is also an advantage. It means that any mutagen can also be used to attempt to counteract a hostile polymorph effect, and forces hostile polymorphs to counteract it to take effect. "But Quid, hostile polymorphs are pretty rare!" And so are beneficial ones? Missing out on battle forms is not some big loss, and not being able to stack Enlarge and Choker Arm Mutagen is pretty fair.

3. Being balanced by needing to be applied pre-combat isn't a huge factor when they last for ten minutes or an hour.

4. I think "barely" is incorrect here. They always give +1 more of an item bonus than you can get with a permanent item of that level, and they usually give that bonus to a lot more than a permanent item would.

Just as an example for a recent concept I had- a Necromancer focused on social skills, running a scam where a fake "hero" defeats the "powerful necromancer". Deception and Intimidation are both critical for the concept, while Performance is nice to have. At level 3, that would be a Ventriloquist's Ring and a One Hundred Victories tattoo, totaling 120 gp. For the same price, that's ten uses of the Silvertongue Mutagen, which also covers Performance and Diplomacy to talk their way out of a problem, while also preventing critical failures, all while giving a bigger bonus to Deception and Intimidation than the permanent items. The only thing the permanent items have going for them is a once-per-day first-rank Ventriloquism, which is more likely to give the scam away since it always offers a save.

If it were just that, it would be way too good.

5. Yeah, there's a downside. Potions, Elixirs, and Spells give way smaller benefits for the level, so they don't come with downsides. If I want to give myself a +2 to multiple charisma skills, I'm looking at a 6th rank Heroism spell, and I don't think the other two can do it at all. That's 11th level instead of 3rd.

6. I disagree about forgetting about the penalty. Why would the type make a difference there? It just means it's a penalty that stacks. This feels like padding the point count.

7. They're always a thematic group. "Bonus to charisma stuff, no crit failures, penalty to intelligence stuff, lose one trained skill".

Once my characters are into the mid levels, they're almost always carrying a 3rd level mutagen on their person for emergencies because of the huge value. Skill mutagens especially, because there are so many use cases where their penalties don't have any impact at all. Cognitive Mutagen lets you spend a ten minute break recalling information with a bonus and zero chance of false info. Serene Mutagen is all upside if you're not expecting fights, or on characters who buff and heal. Silvertongue mutagen makes social situations a breeze.

I dunno, it feels like you might only be looking at the combat mutagens?

[NorrKnekten]

Yes mutagens are cumbersome to use and the penalties can very often make them not worth using especially if they are long duration ones. Having the penalty for more than a single combat. Some of the are great, Others are questionable outside of someone wanting touch range without wanting to make attacks.

But there is a few things that set them appart.

First, Alchemicals and Magical consumables of the same level arent equal. We know this is the intention from the guidelines.

Building items/Design by Type wrote:

Because alchemists can make a large number for free, alchemical items tend to be on the weaker end for their level, with lower Prices.

Building Items wrote:

Potions vs. Elixirs

Alchemical items and magic items follow a similar price economy based on their level, but the effects of potions can be a bit broader and more directly magical. Alchemists can also make extremely large numbers of elixirs at an item level equal to their alchemist level, so if a 17th-level elixir was competing with a 9th-rank spell for power, an alchemist would be packing the equivalent of over 40 9th-rank spells, and potentially quickened spells thanks to the single action activation.

Second is that their effects are actually incredibly broad, Broader than any one single elixir or even potion most of the time when it comes to granting bonuses as they normally grant their bonus to a wide range of skills.

Sanguine covers all Fortitude and Reflex rolls, but also has double effect to poison/disease equivalent of an antidote. Great against Oozes that dont do piercing/slashing but will very much try to engulf you.

SilverTongue grants to Charisma skills and stops critical failure with those skills, And the drawback is only -2 with your intelligence skills.

Cognitive grants bonus to intelligence skills and recall knowledge checks, While only penalizing weapon/unarmed rolls, And acrobatics/athletics. Great for spellcasters utilizing Recall Knowledge.

So they have use as a single consumable that covers rather large ground with its boon. If it wasnt for the drawback it would be the defacto consumable in most cases.

But I also agree with Trip.H in that trying to always use them is a bad idea outside of the very obvious ones like Bestial/Drakeheart/Stone Body. They are very context sensitive due to their penalty, but its a penalty that I feel they very much warrant.

[shroudb]

I too think that especially the combat focused mutagens have too much of a penalty for the bonus they offer.

More often than not, they give just a +1, not unlike a low level spell, but the negatives can be as crippling as a -2 to your Con modifier.

The skill based ones are great IF, and only IF, you also have a way to quickly remove them. Else you're risking incapacitating yourself to an impromptu combat that may arise in the middle of the social/research encounter you were using the skill mutagen in.

[ottdmk]

Christopher#2411504 wrote:

6. You make the downside a Item penalty, a penalty that is used practically nowhere else (so we keep forgetting about them).

You're mistaken here, btw. Take a closer look... Mutagens generally have Untyped penalties. They're meant to stack with everything.

Ah, a discussion on Mutagen design! It must be my lucky day. Personally, I love, love, love Mutagens... but you have to match the right Mutagen to the right Class.

Let's look at my personal favourite: Quicksilver. Quicksilver is probably the most disparaged Mutagen due to its Drawbacks... and the Drawbacks are substantial, I agree. Where I disagree is whether they're too harsh.

For one thing, I see a lot of "you're tanking your fort save" comments. I disagree. From levels 1-8 a lot of Classes are only Trained in Fort Saves. Which is the same level of Fort Save of an Alchemist on Quicksilver. Levels 9-10 are a bit harsh... lowest Fort Saves in the game, unfortunately. But then you hit 11th level, and you end up with Expert Fort saves with a Success->Crit Success bump built in. 10.3 Classes have Expert Fort saves from 11-20, barring Canny Acumen investment... pretty decent company, IMHO. Only the Rogue gets the same Bump.

As for the damage, well, it takes you from an 8 HP/level Class to a 6 HP/level. So, the same as Psychics, Sorcerers, Witches and Wizards. However do they survive? </sarcasm>. If you're using Quicksilver, you should be Ranged. Unless you're a Dex based Fighter, I suppose. Or maybe a Raging Thrower Barbarian. Going from a 10 HP to 8 HP is ok... I play a Melee Mutagenist, after all, and survive just fine. (12 to 10 would be easy.)

And what do you get in return? Well, there's that Item Bonus to Dex Based Strikes. Everybody knows that one.

There's the Speed bonus. Don't hear as much about that one. Most folks dismiss it because, well, Tailwind wands. I tend to look at it differently... I'm using Quicksilver. I don't need to invest in Trick Magic Item. Besides, my Bomber is 12th level now. Quicksilver is faster.

There's the Item Bonus to Acrobatics, Stealth & Thievery. Which are, generally, just better than alternatives. They come in earlier, they're +1 stronger, they apply to all uses of the Skill instead of just a subset... you get the picture.

And finally, there's the bonus to Reflex Saves. I almost never hear people discussing that one. I mean, it's +2 better than anything else for 11 out of 20 levels. The rest of the time it's +1.

Christopher#2411504 wrote:

Forget tying to use them in Soceity Play.

You & I have vastly different experiences with Mutagens and Society Play. Especially since Remaster.

Cognitive Mutagen basically steals the show in Society Play. +X Bonus to any Recall Knowledge Skill. Plus, you cannot Crit Fail the check. There's always a lot of RK checks in every Scenario. And that's just levels 1-10.

Level 11+, Greater Cognitive comes into play, along with being able to customize it on the spot with Quick Alchemy. Last time I played my Bomber, we ran into a Void Energy effect. So I whipped up at QA Greater Cognitive, and informed the GM I was now trained in Void Energy Lore for then next 10 minutes. With a +5 Int Bonus and a +3 Item Bonus, plus I could not Crit Fail. The entire table was laughing with glee at that one.

Funnily enough, as much as I hate the duration nerf of Quick Alchemy'd Elixirs, the change has actually increased the popularity of Mutagens in the Society games I've played and run. People seem to be more ok with Drawbacks if they only last ten minutes, it seems.

[shroudb]

ottdmk wrote:

Christopher#2411504 wrote:

6. You make the downside a Item penalty, a penalty that is used practically nowhere else (so we keep forgetting about them).

You're mistaken here, btw. Take a closer look... Mutagens generally have Untyped penalties. They're meant to stack with everything.

Ah, a discussion on Mutagen design! It must be my lucky day. Personally, I love, love, love Mutagens... but you have to match the right Mutagen to the right Class.

Let's look at my personal favourite: Quicksilver. Quicksilver is probably the most disparaged Mutagen due to its Drawbacks... and the Drawbacks are substantial, I agree. Where I disagree is whether they're too harsh.

For one thing, I see a lot of "you're tanking your fort save" comments. I disagree. From levels 1-8 a lot of Classes are only Trained in Fort Saves. Which is the same level of Fort Save of an Alchemist on Quicksilver. Levels 9-10 are a bit harsh... lowest Fort Saves in the game, unfortunately. But then you hit 11th level, and you end up with Expert Fort saves with a Success->Crit Success bump built in. 10.3 Classes have Expert Fort saves from 11-20, barring Canny Acumen investment... pretty decent company, IMHO. Only the Rogue gets the same Bump.

As for the damage, well, it takes you from an 8 HP/level Class to a 6 HP/level. So, the same as Psychics, Sorcerers, Witches and Wizards. However do they survive? </sarcasm>. If you're using Quicksilver, you should be Ranged. Unless you're a Dex based Fighter, I suppose. Or maybe a Raging Thrower Barbarian. Going from a 10 HP to 8 HP is ok... I play a Melee Mutagenist, after all, and survive just fine. (12 to 10 would be easy.)

And what do you get in return? Well, there's that Item Bonus to Dex Based Strikes. Everybody knows that one.

There's the Speed bonus. Don't hear as much about that one. Most folks dismiss it because, well, Tailwind wands. I tend to look at it differently... I'm using Quicksilver. I don't need to invest in Trick Magic Item. Besides, my...

The problem ofc being that

a)the fort and hp penalty basically gives you caster defences (1 good save, 2 bad, 6 hp) on a martial character.

Casters universally have weaker defenses because they have higher impact spells.

An alchemist specifically doesn't have caster strength in his elixirs due to quantity.

So, you end up with the negatives of a caster without his positives.

And ofc,

B) a simple Heroism, that you can have from lvl 5, and by lvl 12 is in the throwaway slots, gives the same bonus to attacks, the same bonus to Ref, the same bonus on your skills, +1 Fort (a massive +3 difference between Quicksilver), and +1 Will, without hitting you for 20% of your HP.

[Blue_frog]

shroudb wrote:

The problem ofc being that

a)the fort and hp penalty basically gives you caster defences (1 good save, 2 bad, 6 hp) on a martial character.

Casters universally have weaker defenses because they have higher impact spells.

An alchemist specifically doesn't have caster strength in his elixirs due to quantity.

So, you end up with the negatives of a caster without his positives.

And ofc,

B) a simple Heroism, that you can have from lvl 5, and by lvl 12 is in the throwaway slots, gives the same bonus to attacks, the same bonus to Ref, the same bonus on your skills, +1 Fort (a massive +3 difference between Quicksilver), and +1 Will, without hitting you for 20% of your HP.

Well, that's true but:

A) Like the above poster said, if you're using Quicksilver, you're probably ranged (bombers love Quicksilver, although being precise with a bomb is not THAT big of a DPS increase). If you're a melee alchemist, apart from some very specific dex builds that make you jump through hoops, you'll probably get a different mutagen.

B) Mutagens give item bonus, so you can BOTH get mutagen and heroism bonus.

[Trip.H]

I will say that the pros of Quicksilver are potent, and imo it's the speed bonus that's really underrated. If that extra movement saves you a Stride or two per combat, that's rather huge.
(This is also why Drakeheart is genuinely usable, it's self-removal + double move ability can save an action per combat rather often)

But, I will also acknowledge that the only reason I use Quicksilver on my L17 Alch is because it's fused with Stone Body in a resistance tank-ish build, where the HP number doesn't matter so long as I'm not one-shot.

I have absolutely used Quicksilver, and failed a Fort save I'd have otherwise passed, and been downed because of that missing HP. That sucked enough to swear off the stuff, and it was only the discovery of the Combine double that had me try it again.

And if your GM is a RaW stickler, you cannot even do the "10 min sustain" trick with Quicksilver due to the exact way the HP damage works.*
The effect wearing off / refreshing does not restore the lost HP, so you technically need to manually heal the damage taken faster than each application is doing new damage.

[shroudb]

Blue_frog wrote:

shroudb wrote:

The problem ofc being that

a)the fort and hp penalty basically gives you caster defences (1 good save, 2 bad, 6 hp) on a martial character.

Casters universally have weaker defenses because they have higher impact spells.

An alchemist specifically doesn't have caster strength in his elixirs due to quantity.

So, you end up with the negatives of a caster without his positives.

And ofc,

B) a simple Heroism, that you can have from lvl 5, and by lvl 12 is in the throwaway slots, gives the same bonus to attacks, the same bonus to Ref, the same bonus on your skills, +1 Fort (a massive +3 difference between Quicksilver), and +1 Will, without hitting you for 20% of your HP.

Well, that's true but:

A) Like the above poster said, if you're using Quicksilver, you're probably ranged (bombers love Quicksilver, although being precise with a bomb is not THAT big of a DPS increase). If you're a melee alchemist, apart from some very specific dex builds that make you jump through hoops, you'll probably get a different mutagen.

B) Mutagens give item bonus, so you can BOTH get mutagen and heroism bonus.

My issue, since beta, is that Alchemist stuff get massively penaltized for stacking with Spells, but Spells don't get penaltized for stacking with Alchemist stuff.

In short, why are the always single target Item buffs the ones that have to carry the penalty for stacking and not the (often AoE) Spell effects that do so?

Basically, Alchemist gets F'ed cause casters exist? Where's the balance in that?

Especially with recent buffs to Spell Auras like Bless, which now effortlessly cover the whole party in universal +1s, as just a 1st slot spell, there's absolutely no justification for Mutagens carrying penalties, balance wise.

If Paizo wants Mutagens to carry negatives for thematic reasons, they need to absolutely buff the effects to a place that deserves said penalties, which is at least +1 above where they are right now.

[ottdmk]

shroudb wrote:

a)the fort and hp penalty basically gives you caster defences (1 good save, 2 bad, 6 hp) on a martial character.

Blue_frog wrote:

A) Like the above poster said, if you're using Quicksilver, you're probably ranged (bombers love Quicksilver, although being precise with a bomb is not THAT big of a DPS increase). If you're a melee alchemist, apart from some very specific dex builds that make you jump through hoops, you'll probably get a different mutagen.

Exactly. My Bombers use Quicksilver regularly... and you'd be surprised how many encounters end with them only taking Quicksilver damage. Ranged is a very potent defense in and of itself, in my experience. There have been exceptions, of course... I remember one particular Outlaws of Alkenstar encounter where things were cramped and my Bomber was focused on. But overall, being Ranged is a lifesaver.

My Mutagenist uses Bestial.

Trip.H wrote:

I have absolutely used Quicksilver, and failed a Fort save I'd have otherwise passed, and been downed because of that missing HP. That sucked enough to swear off the stuff, and it was only the discovery of the Combine double that had me try it again.

Whereas I can't count the times where I've succeeded because of what Quicksilver has to offer. I almost always know... man, do I love Modifiers Matter on Foundry. But I've lost track. Have there been times when the Drawback has bit me? Absolutely... but those occasions are rare compared to the times where it helped me.

shroudb wrote:

My issue, since beta, is that Alchemist stuff get massively penaltized for stacking with Spells, but Spells don't get penaltized for stacking with Alchemist stuff.

That's an interesting way to look at it. I have to say, I've never seen it that way. I've always thought that Mutagens were just a natural evolution from how they worked in 1st Edition. You get something for a cost. The PF2 Mutagens are both more formalized (different formulae for different effect) and more flexible (you don't need a Discovery to keep various Mutagens around for various purposes) and, of course, other people can actually use Mutagens now, not just Alchemists.I honestly don't think the penalties are because they stack with Status Bonuses. For one thing, there are plenty of non-Mutagen Elixirs that stack, but have no penalties. (My two favourites: Bravo's Brews and Eagle-Eye Elixirs.)

I also have no idea how you could change things to penalize Spells for stacking with Mutagens. Unlike Mutagens, Spells in Pathfinder have never come with Drawbacks. I can't imagine how big of an uproar there'd be were such a thing be implemented somehow.

[shroudb]

ottdmk wrote:

That's an interesting way to look at it. I have to say, I've never seen it that way. I've always thought that Mutagens were just a natural evolution from how they worked in 1st Edition. You get something for a cost.

the main difference being that in pf1, mutagens offered massive bonuses, way beyond what spells could give, for big negatives.

here they give equal bonuses as low-mid level spells, for penalties.

"big bonuses" obviously doesn't sit right with pf2 design, but that undercuts the purpose of having penalties "offset" said massive boosts as well.

which is why i also said that if they want to keep the penalties for purely thematic reasons, they should either do the penalties purely thematic as well (aka trivial stuff penaltized only), or give the bonuses an extra edge beyond what they give now.

because balance wise, there's no justification for the penalties to be as big as they are right now.

---

i get what you are saying, but the numbers simply don't work out. when a mutagen is simply less good than Heroism, or even less good than a simple Bless, then there's no reason for it to have such drastic penalties when Heroism doesn't have those.

And saying that "well, they stack with Heroism" doesn't make the argument any stronger, because "stacking" goes both ways, there's no reason to penaltize the alchemical stuff and not the spell stuff.

[NorrKnekten]

It would be great if the level 1 had a lesser penalty, but are we really comparing level 1 mutas with rank 3 spells now? Because last I checked mutas do have stronger bonuses than bless,heroism and other alchemicals for the level they are available, to the point where they break the games own guidelines. Yes they are less relevant if you have other item bonuses but the same can be said for status bonuses even if they have less 'permanence'

Rank 1 Bless, +1 Attack Rolls only,
Level 1 Muta, +1 to a wide variety of rolls.

Rank 3 Heroism +1 to all.
Level 3 Muta +2 to a wide variety

Rank 6 heroism +2
level 11 Muta +3

If anything Mutagens typically break the threshold of what is given to an alchemical by atleast 2 levels with appropriatly cheaper price. And even then the alchemicals are typically only boosting a single skill.

Don't get me wrong, the penalties hurt, Alot. When they become relevant but that doesn't mean they arent warranted as they are context sensitive. Silvertongue for example, Is the -1 intelligence barbarian really going to care for that penalty. or is the spellcaster going to care about the penalties from Choker-arm or Cognitive.

But that doesnt change that in order to make them comparable with other alchemicals you need to reduce the bonus or increase their level, And reduce how wide their bonuses are.

If anything the real crime is that the class with the easiest access to mutagens is the class that only really cares for the mutagens with the worst penalties for it. Being an intelligence 'martial' with warpriest proficiency scaling.

[Squiggit]

shroudb wrote:

here they give equal bonuses as low-mid level spells, for penalties.

That's just not correct. There are few, if any, spells that give the bonuses mutagens give.

Quote:

i get what you are saying, but the numbers simply don't work out. when a mutagen is simply less good than Heroism, or even less good than a simple Bless, then there's no reason for it to have such drastic penalties when Heroism doesn't have those.

This is a really bad comparison point because Heroism and a Mutagen provide separate buffs that stack with each other. In fact one of the reason Bless and Heroism have issues s that there are so many ways to gain a similar bonus. Heroism is kind of a mediocre spell before it starts scaling.

Calling Bless better than a Mutagen is just fundamentally a meaningless sentiment because having one doesn't cost you the other.

[shroudb]

NorrKnekten wrote:

It would be great if the level 1 had a lesser penalty, but are we really comparing level 1 mutas with rank 3 spells now? Because last I checked mutas do have stronger bonuses than bless,heroism and other alchemicals for the level they are available, to the point where they break the games own guidelines. Yes they are less relevant if you have other item bonuses but the same can be said for status bonuses even if they have less 'permanence'

Rank 1 Bless, +1 Attack Rolls only,
Level 1 Muta, +1 to a wide variety of rolls.

Rank 3 Heroism +1 to all.
Level 3 Muta +2 to a wide variety

Rank 6 heroism +2
level 11 Muta +3

If anything Mutagens typically break the threshold of what is given to an alchemical by atleast 2 levels with appropriatly cheaper price. And even then the alchemicals are typically only boosting a single skill.

Don't get me wrong, the penalties hurt, Alot. When they become relevant but that doesn't mean they arent warranted as they are context sensitive. Silvertongue for example, Is the -1 intelligence barbarian really going to care for that penalty. or is the spellcaster going to care about the penalties from Choker-arm or Cognitive.

But that doesnt change that in order to make them comparable with other alchemicals you need to reduce the bonus or increase their level, And reduce how wide their bonuses are.

If anything the real crime is that the class with the easiest access to mutagens is the class that only really cares for the mutagens with the worst penalties for it. Being an intelligence 'martial' with warpriest proficiency scaling.

That's a really misleading comment:

At any given point, the mutagens give a +1 bonus above what you already have.

It would indeed be a different story if they did indeed offer a unique bonus category, like "alchemical bonus" but due to their bonuses being Item bonuses, they are always just a +1 above what the game by definition expects you to have.

So yes, at level 12, drinking a Quicksilver, will just be a +1 to your ranged attack and +1 to your reflex.

So at that point, a Heroism, which isn't even a resource consideration since it's just a rank 3 spell, does offer WAY more bonuses.

Drinking a Drakeheart? Why take the penalties for +1 AC when a Rank 1 spell gives +1 to AC for the whole party?

And etc

Even Bless, a Rank 1 spell is at least comparable since it affects the whole party and it applies to all kind of attack rolls rather than selected few.

[Christopher#2411504]

NorrKnekten wrote:

Rank 1 Bless, +1 Attack Rolls only,

Level 1 Muta, +1 to a wide variety of rolls.

Rank 3 Heroism +1 to all.
Level 3 Muta +2 to a wide variety

Rank 6 heroism +2
level 11 Muta +3

The problem is that Mutagens are Item bonus, while Spells are usually Status.

If using Athletics is actually part of your gameplan, you have the highest permanent bonus you can get. And the highest proficiency.
Meaning the Mutagen will be a +1 for any skill you atually plan on using.
Attack or Saving throw bonuses? Yeah, you definitvely have the maximum allowed by your level.

So the Mutagen only has the full effect on the skills you aren't actually planning on using. Except most of those, you aren't even trained in. If they gave a "you can add your level" like Diguise Self/Infiltrator's Exlir they might be worth it.

But a +2 to Untrained Deception? Entirely worthless.
+4 to trained deception at level 20? Maybe you get some use out of it?

[NorrKnekten]

Oh no I am fully aware that it is an item bonus, But just because you typically already have item bonuses in your core skills doesn't mean Heroism and Bless doesn't suffer from the very same thing when the game has plenty of feats and features that give status bonuses. Is heroism really offering the same value if you have a bard or marshal? Is Protection really offering anything when the party's features already give spammable or long-lasting status bonuses to AC and Saves.

But yeah mutagens give +1 above what you are expected to have in your core skills provided you invest in permanents. But it is available several levels earlier than other consumables with the same bonus and typically provide it for a longer duration with a wider range of bonuses instead of +2 to high-jump or a single check. Thats the entire premise behind Mutagens, A means of boosting something with a stronger effect than what is available to begin with but at a penalty.

In the case of Athletics especially you are stuck with dead-weight/bestial mutagens or Demon dust if you want to get anything more than a +1 to general athletics before you get your +2 permanent. Same with intimidation, Dreadhelm is only +1 until level 11 and DragonBlood Pudding is only a single check at 5.

If we are instead talking attack bonuses the earliest you get +2 is what? level 8 Armory bracelet, level 8 for unarmed fangs attack with viperious elixir or level 9 for potency crystal compared with level 3 mutagens that also grant their bonus to skills.

Penalty is going to decide wether or not someone picks up a mutagen, but if we are looking at gaining larger item bonuses for a longer duration of time, they are very often the only choice atleast until the party gains a few levels. If the you find the penalty isnt worth it, you are better of going with something that modifies the skill you want to use instead of just looking at how big you can pump a single number.

[shroudb]

NorrKnekten wrote:

Oh no I am fully aware that it is an item bonus, But just because you typically already have item bonuses in your core skills doesn't mean Heroism and Bless doesn't suffer from the very same thing when the game has plenty of feats and features that give status bonuses. Is heroism really offering the same value if you have a bard or marshal? Is Protection really offering anything when the party's features already give spammable or long-lasting status bonuses to AC and Saves.

But yeah mutagens give +1 above what you are expected to have in your core skills provided you invest in permanents. But it is available several levels earlier than other consumables with the same bonus and typically provide it for a longer duration with a wider range of bonuses instead of +2 to high-jump or a single check. Thats the entire premise behind Mutagens, A means of boosting something with a stronger effect than what is available to begin with but at a penalty.

In the case of Athletics especially you are stuck with dead-weight/bestial mutagens or Demon dust if you want to get anything more than a +1 to general athletics before you get your +2 permanent. Same with intimidation, Dreadhelm is only +1 until level 11 and DragonBlood Pudding is only a single check at 5.

If we are instead talking attack bonuses the earliest you get +2 is what? level 8 Armory bracelet, level 8 for unarmed fangs attack with viperious elixir or level 9 for potency crystal compared with level 3 mutagens that also grant their bonus to skills.

Penalty is going to decide wether or not someone picks up a mutagen, but if we are looking at gaining larger item bonuses for a longer duration of time, they are very often the only choice atleast until the party gains a few levels. If the you find the penalty isnt worth it, you are better of going with something that modifies the skill you want to use instead of just looking at how big you can pump a single number.

The difference is that having +X item bonus to your attacks, ac, saves, and even skills is part of the core assumption of the game.

Status bonuses, aren't.

You don't see "ABP: you gain +1 potency bonus to hit, but remove Status bonuses from the game" you see "remove item bonuses" though.

And then there is the permanency issue as well.

So you recon it'll sit good with the community if there existed a level 2 item that was "you gain+1 status to attacks as long as you invest this ring"

How about a level 12 item that gave a permanent +2 status bonus to saves?

And etc.

Because that's what you are equalising when you try to compare availability of Item bonuses and Status bonuses.

---
In ALL your skill examples, a +1 item + Heroism is just better, and ealier available.

---

Basically, Item bonuses are part of a character budget, Status, aren't.

So, yes, you are giving misinformation when you say "technically, they give higher bonuses!" When in reality, Mutagens give only +1 above what you have where it matters regardless of their level.

[QuidEst]

shroudb wrote:

Basically, Item bonuses are part of a character budget, Status, aren't.

So, yes, you are giving misinformation when you say "technically, they give higher bonuses!" When in reality, Mutagens give only +1 above what you have where it matters regardless of their level.

(Un-highlighted for de-emphasis.)

Item bonuses to attack and saves are part of your budget. Item bonuses to two skills are part of your budget. That leaves a lot of uncovered skills.

Status bonuses are not part of your budget... but they're hard not to trip over.

Suppose you're a Swashbuckler or a Rogue or something- some non-caster, non-alchemist. You have some consumable budget to address your lack of support, buying mutagens or Heroism. We will assume your permanent gear follows the ABP progression. (Mutagens are brokenly good under the actual ABP rules as they're written, so we won't actually use ABP- that's not a fair comparison.) To not completely ignore the downsides of Heroism, one of those items will be the Pendant of the Occult. Once an hour, we can get a +1 status bonus to an attack or skill roll.

Levels 1-4, mutagens (3-12gp) for everything. Heroism isn't available.

Level 5-10: Heroism (30gp) for attack rolls, easy call. We had a +1 item bonus to attack back at level 2, so mutagens can't outperform Heroism, and even at nearly three times the cost, not having a drawback is pretty important. For skills, though, we only have one to two skills with item bonuses. For everything else, mutagens give twice the bonus for one-third the price. That's a pretty easy call for mutagens on skill rolls, even with the drawbacks and before considering the extra perks like preventing crit-fails. Heroism only gets used for skills if we need to make a second one in an hour.

Levels 11-16: Heroism is now 300 gp a pop, and so are the mutagens. It's no longer cheaper to use mutagens. The mutagens last an hour instead, which is good for long stretches of repeated skill use, but less good for the practical considerations of a drawback lingering long enough to be a problem. We'll have two or three skills where a mutagen isn't doing much at all, and one or two more where a mutagen is only as good (without Guidance) as Heroism.

Levels 17+: It's now 3,000 gp a pop. Cognitive Mutagen is notable for giving a massive +23-26 if you need to use an untrained skill. There are five skills with reduced mutagen effectiveness. Guidance no longer puts much of a dent in Heroism's relative effectiveness. At this point, it's hard to compete with a 9th slot spell, and getting ten minutes of +3 status to attack and skills is hard to replicate, even looking at other spells.

To me, if you look at skills, the first half favors mutagens, and the second half favors Heroism.

---

But, let's also take a look at what it takes to stop blowing absurd funds on consumables.

Getting those mutagens? That's one second-level feat, and you're good for four uses per day across all levels. You also cap mutagen duration at ten minutes, meaning you don't have to worry about the drawbacks of the hour duration. A second feat gets you another four uses, with full duration.

Getting Heroism at rank 3? That's two feats (2nd and 4th), and you're delayed until level 8, getting only one use. Rank 6? That's another feat (12th) and you're delayed until 16th- one level before that single Alchemist feat is getting +4 bonus mutagens. And Rank 9 is impossible; you need to actually be a caster.

From a "get it yourself for free" angle, mutagens absolutely crush Heroism on skills. Even for the skills you have items for, it's level 16 before you can get a free Heroism to be better than the free mutagen.

[NorrKnekten]

A Class's ability to hand out status bonuses is absolutely part of its power budget, Just because they arent part of the treasure budget doesnt mean they arent part of a characters power when we have stances and auras granting status bonuses nearly as readily as permanents.

You are still not adressing or getting my point, that if you want a +2 item bonus from a non-mutagen consumable, You typically have a massive level difference and cost, in some cases 6 entire levels between the mutagen and the equivalent non-penalized consumable. Similarly, a level 3 mutagen with musical acompanyment is greater total than +1 item and heroism. while also being available earlier than both heroism and the +1 item.

The point is that if we want an accurate comparison between spells and mutagens we need to realize the difference between mutagens and other consumables.

If we were to do the same comparison between spells then heroism is the creme of the crop, granting its bonuse to everything, But its also a rather high rank for a measly +1 status because it gives to everything without any penalty. Compared to bless and several rank 1 spells and cantrips which also have +1 status but come with either, penalties, temp immunity or very limited scope or duration.

Thats essentially what the comparison should be, when asking if the penalty is warranted.
Mutagens compared to other consumables with the same numerical bonus are;
+Available earlier,
+Cheaper,
+Vastly broader scope,
+Longer duration,
-Offset by (mostly)unavoidable (sometimes irrelevant)penalties.

Same as comparing rank 1 Protection and Heroism.
Available earlier, narrow scope, shorter duration.
even at rank 3 protection the difference is that you trade scope and duration in order to affect an area.

[NorrKnekten]

QuidEst wrote:

Levels 1-4, mutagens (3-12gp) for everything. Heroism isn't available.

Level 5-10: Heroism (30gp) for attack rolls, easy call. We had a +1 item bonus to attack back at level 2, so mutagens can't outperform Heroism, and even at nearly three times the cost, not having a drawback is pretty important. For skills, though, we only have one to two skills with item bonuses. For everything else, mutagens give twice the bonus for one-third the price. That's a pretty easy call for mutagens on skill rolls, even with the drawbacks and before considering the extra perks like preventing crit-fails. Heroism only gets used for skills if we need to make a second one in an hour.

Levels 11-16: Heroism is now 300 gp a pop, and so are the mutagens. It's no longer cheaper to use mutagens. The mutagens last an hour instead, which is good for long stretches of repeated skill use, but less good for the practical considerations of a drawback lingering long enough to be a problem. We'll have two or three skills where a mutagen isn't doing much at all, and one or two more where a mutagen is only as good (without Guidance) as Heroism.

Levels 17+: It's now 3,000 gp a pop. Cognitive Mutagen is notable for giving a massive +23-26 if you need to use an untrained skill. There are five skills with reduced mutagen effectiveness. Guidance no longer puts much of a dent in Heroism's relative effectiveness. At this point, it's hard to compete with a 9th slot spell, and getting ten minutes of +3 status to attack and skills is hard to replicate, even looking at other spells.

To me, if you look at skills, the first half favors mutagens, and the second half favors Heroism.

Thats my feeling to, even though War blood/Bestial/QuickSilver give +2 to attack rolls and other bonuses at level 3. but in the latter half we are no longer comparing level 3 stuff to level 5 stuff. But rather Alchemical vs Magical of same rank/level. Which we already know is going to end up favoring the magical.

Building Items wrote:

Potions vs. Elixirs

Alchemical items and magic items follow a similar price economy based on their level, but the effects of potions can be a bit broader and more directly magical. Alchemists can also make extremely large numbers of elixirs at an item level equal to their alchemist level, so if a 17th-level elixir was competing with a 9th-rank spell for power, an alchemist would be packing the equivalent of over 40 9th-rank spells, and potentially quickened spells thanks to the single action activation.

[shroudb]

QuidEst wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Basically, Item bonuses are part of a character budget, Status, aren't.

So, yes, you are giving misinformation when you say "technically, they give higher bonuses!" When in reality, Mutagens give only +1 above what you have where it matters regardless of their level.

(Un-highlighted for de-emphasis.)

Item bonuses to attack and saves are part of your budget. Item bonuses to two skills are part of your budget. That leaves a lot of uncovered skills.

You only increase around 3 skills.

Giving a barbarian +2 to his Untrained Deception won't make him able to bluff any more than giving him +1 from Heroism.

NorrKnekten wrote:

Thats my feeling to, even though War blood/Bestial/QuickSilver give +2 to attack rolls and other bonuses at level 3. but in the latter half we are no longer comparing level 3 stuff to level 5 stuff. But rather Alchemical vs Magical of same rank/level. Which we already know is going to end up favoring the magical.

A) they only provide +1 to attacks since at level 3 you already have a +1 since level 2.

B)Magic vs Alchemy is already tilted towards Magic by quite a bit even without counting the penalties:

Mutagens only providing a +1 on very specific things, only as single target, as opposed Magic providing up to +3, or AoE, or wider range of application (all attacks, all saves, all skills, etc).

So, once more:
Balance wise, there's no justification for such massive penalties.
If you want to have penalties for lore/fluff reasons, make the panalties fluff as well("Bestial Mutagen: you grow fur or other visible, Bestial, feature". "Quicksilver: your skin becomes metallic". And etc)

[QuidEst]

shroudb wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Basically, Item bonuses are part of a character budget, Status, aren't.

So, yes, you are giving misinformation when you say "technically, they give higher bonuses!" When in reality, Mutagens give only +1 above what you have where it matters regardless of their level.

(Un-highlighted for de-emphasis.)

Item bonuses to attack and saves are part of your budget. Item bonuses to two skills are part of your budget. That leaves a lot of uncovered skills.

You only increase around 3 skills.

Giving a barbarian +2 to his Untrained Deception won't make him able to bluff any more than giving him +1 from Heroism.

But giving a barbarian +2 to his trained Deception does make him as good at bluffing as being expert. You have more than three trained skills.

[NorrKnekten]

shroudb wrote:

So, once more:

Balance wise, there's no justification for such massive penalties.
If you want to have penalties for lore/fluff reasons, make the panalties fluff as well("Bestial Mutagen: you grow fur or other visible, Bestial, feature")

I have mentioned the justification, The consumables with equal numerical bonus that don't have these penalties are both higher level and more narrow scope. If you want to remove the penalty you would also need to balance the mutagens accordingly.

Why would anyone pick a level 10 Bravos Brew if the level 3 Serene mutagen does the same thing and more, If it didnt come at a penalty.
Level 10 energy resistance potion? less effect than a level 3 energy mutagen that does the same + provides additional damage.

Less duration sure, but its still cheaper to just get 6 level 3 mutagens than a single level 10 consumable.

[Trip.H]

This issue is a large part of why I caution against the "maining" of any one mutagen. They are most beneficial if you stuff your formula book full, and then are able pivot in the moment and buff you or an ally who lacks an item bonus.

This is where you can get a roll-changing difference thanks to the mutagen, and even where the +1 over norm max, but big drawback, design choice can still be in the PC's favor due to that specific contextual need.

.

The second use-case mutagens have over magic is that of the indefinite sustain for the +1.

While it's stuck being +1 in this context, the key is to get the buff for 0A. Unlike mutagens, magical status bonuses are "design-intended" to cost combat actions.

While prebuffing before door-kick is crazy potent, to the point of often invalidating this outright, it is reflected in the dev design that mutagens are "supposed" to be usable with 0A when pre-selected.

This is most strongly evidenced/reinforced by the late addition of the shifting spider collar, as before then, then short duration made this concept not really manifest in gameplay that well.

[NorrKnekten]

Yup. I fully agree with Trip.H here, Even when not considering it from an alchemist viewpoint its not at all expensive to stuff your formula book with the mutagens after the remaster. Dont even need to use the formula book if you are just crafting them as regular consumables.

I've seen a bard who loaded up on silvertongue and chose to not spend money on +2 deception, performance or intimidation boosting items simply because intelligence and skill proficiency didnt matter for him and the 1000gp was used for spellhearts and other permanents.

[Tridus]

shroudb wrote:

Balance wise, there's no justification for such massive penalties.

If you want to have penalties for lore/fluff reasons, make the panalties fluff as well("Bestial Mutagen: you grow fur or other visible, Bestial, feature". "Quicksilver: your skin becomes metallic". And etc)

You do realize that the "fix" for this is "change mutagens to give status bonuses", right? Now they can give bigger numbers. You also just made them not stack and instead compete with all the other things giving out those bonuses, but that's a type of bonus that can go higher.

This whole discussion is comparing things that are meant to operate in entirely different buckets of bonuses and going "the number is bigger on one so the other is bad!" Nevermind that very few spells can give item bonuses at all, let alone get you ahead of the curve on them.

People should think more carefully about what would actually happen if this was changed. Because the answer isn't "mutagens suddenly give massive item bonuses or have no downsides". It's going to be "mutagens are functionally spells with a different flavor so that you can't stack them and thus the numbers can be bigger."

Like most Alchemy, these are a tool that have a time when they're appropriate and a time when they're not. At the right time, they make a difference.

[ottdmk]

So, am I correct in thinking that the argument is: as a permanent item (weapon rune, skill item) + Heroism is stronger than just a Mutagen, with no Drawback, therefore Mutagens are simply not worth it?

I find that fascinating. I suppose if the choice were either/or, I could understand that.

But despite the theoretical argument that Mutagens are penalized because Item Bonuses stack with Status Bonuses... The fact is, they do stack.

Which is a very nice thing for those of us, like myself, who appreciate Mutagens.

I mean, my Mutagenist is 11th level now. From now on Bestial gives +1 over what any permanent Athletics item can give him. From 15th to 19th, when he catches up Str wise, he'll be the best there is, outside of Status Bonuses. He'll also be better at Striking than anyone other than a Fighter or Gunslinger. So that makes him a pretty decent candidate for Heroism, right? That's the usual strategy: cast Heroism on those who have an edge already, to make that edge even bigger?

I'm not fully qualified to determine whether or not Mutagens are good design. But I've gone over the benefits and Drawbacks a lot, and in most cases, I've decided that they're worth it. In the right circumstances.

I've used Quicksilver and Bestial in dozens of encounters. I've never regretted it. I've never had anyone take me up on it, but Cognitive on Casters can be a good fit. Bards and Swashbucklers love Silvertongue, as long as they aren't big into Recall Knowledge. Frontliners tend to still like Juggernaut, even though Numbing Tonic has ate its lunch a bit. Serene is the only one that I don't think has a niche in Encounters, although I suppose if you knew you were going up against a lot of Mental effects, maybe.

Outside of Encounters... well, I don't think anyone can deny how useful Mutagens are outside of Encounters.

I suppose this is a long-winded way of stating: using Mutagens is a choice. In my experience, when used on the right build, it's a choice that has paid off many, many times. I can't say whether it's good design, but it's effective, it's fun, and I'm glad the option is there.

[Trip.H]

To un-make the straw man that's being spun:

It is absolutely correct to say that the as-is balance of most mutagens fell way short of the mark, and are "bad" items not worth the drawbacks.

Due to how the system treats them as special, single buffs with polymorph, etc, the balance norms across pf2 "say" that mutagens should be more potent, perhaps at +2 instead of +1 over normal item bonus.

This does not make them worthless, but does dramatically limit their usefulness.

.

To be blunt, with how Alch was reworked and had it's item count so badly cut, it does not make sense to use VVials to sustain mutagens most of the time. They are too precious / useful for other items for a perma +1 to be worth the -1 VVial (& opportunity cost of the sustained buff).

Dare I say it, but I think a VVial sustained injury poison is genuinely "worth more" than a mutagen +1 +drawback in most cases.

You need 6.5 invocations / uses of a +1 in a roll to hit the 50/50 chance of it helping a roll. This also means a -2 in the drawback has a very high chance of downgrading a result, btw, don't forget that.

If it's a ~40% chance of getting the poison fail, the ability for that affliction to, at minimum be a "you are prone now" thanks to Clown Monarch being a baseline, kinda puts how bad the mutagen opportunity cost is into perspective.

There are plenty of other 10min buffs that also compete with that mutagen, even oddball tools like Camouflage Dye.

[Captain Morgan]

Christopher#2411504 wrote:

As I see the Mutagens:
1. They are balanced by being Consumables (meaning they cost money or limited class Feature space to even have).

They aren't really consumables anymore. They never were never designed to be entirely, because they were made primarily for the alchemist to craft them for free. They at least used to take up a limited daily resource, but with replenishing versatile vials they are now something you never run out of.

It's true that their drawbacks and action economy mean they aren't worthwhile for other classes to use. (That's what other elixirs, like mistform, cheetah, or eagle eye as tr for.) But they feel extremely specced for the alchemist to use. By level 3, the alchemist can essentially always have mutagen running. That means walking around pre-buffed while out of combat. It also means being able to add +2 to any skill check out of combat, on demand. You can share those bonuses with allies out of combat as well. The alchemist doesn't need to sweat having the wrong drawback as much, though, with feats that end mutagens early.

The primary offensive mutagens are also written with the alchemist in mind. Quicksilver helps bombers to hit while providing some extra speed to help them skirmish within the limited range increment on bombs. And bestial gives them unarmed attacks that scale even without striking runes, giving them a respectable melee option with low investment while keeping a hand free.

The formula costs are definitely worth it now, given how constantly you can keep a mutagen running and have the right one for the current skill check. Especially since the remaster let the formula "heighten" for free. 6 gp gsts you item bonuses better than an at level permanent item for the rest of your career. That's an insane value, especially when you're also getting free weapon potency and striking runes. I honestly don't know why you wouldn't make that purchase ASAP.

The remastered alchemist is no longer a vending machine meant to hand out buffs that only help certain party members. They are now more selfish, maximizing mutagen flexibility with their smaller pool of replenishing consumables. They CAN still be useful for party members, but they aren't the best at it in Society games. They will be much more helpful to a party built with the alchemist in mind, who know they can save money on skill items, use drake hearts for unarmored classes, or other specific niches.

[Captain Morgan]

I think all the comparisons to +1 status bonuses tends to overlook that mutagens are only +1 for things you already invested in. They go up to +4 difference for things you didn't invest in. The skill mutagens really shine here, especially our of combat. That means, for example, a trained skill can keep with the scaling level based DCs much better, especially when combined with a circumstance bonus from Aid.

[Zalabim]

The first thing I'd fix on mutagens is actually the duration. Same for the Ablative gadgets. 1 minute, 10 minutes, 1 hour isn't scaling, because 1 minute duration is worthless. You can't use 1 minute of cognitive, silvertongue, or serene mutagen. Even 10 minutes on an exploration buff is just enough to apply to one segment. That can be one check.

[ElementalofCuteness]

Reminds me that I never drank a mutagen yet since PF-2E came out and the only one I might is quicksilver but the hit point damage is so far dumb to me that I can't bare the thought of bringign myself closer to death/downed...

[shroudb]

ottdmk wrote:

So, am I correct in thinking that the argument is: as a permanent item (weapon rune, skill item) + Heroism is stronger than just a Mutagen, with no Drawback, therefore Mutagens are simply not worth it?

I find that fascinating. I suppose if the choice were either/or, I could understand that.

But despite the theoretical argument that Mutagens are penalized because Item Bonuses stack with Status Bonuses... The fact is, they do stack.

Which is a very nice thing for those of us, like myself, who appreciate Mutagens.

I mean, my Mutagenist is 11th level now. From now on Bestial gives +1 over what any permanent Athletics item can give him. From 15th to 19th, when he catches up Str wise, he'll be the best there is, outside of Status Bonuses. He'll also be better at Striking than anyone other than a Fighter or Gunslinger. So that makes him a pretty decent candidate for Heroism, right? That's the usual strategy: cast Heroism on those who have an edge already, to make that edge even bigger?

I'm not fully qualified to determine whether or not Mutagens are good design. But I've gone over the benefits and Drawbacks a lot, and in most cases, I've decided that they're worth it. In the right circumstances.

I've used Quicksilver and Bestial in dozens of encounters. I've never regretted it. I've never had anyone take me up on it, but Cognitive on Casters can be a good fit. Bards and Swashbucklers love Silvertongue, as long as they aren't big into Recall Knowledge. Frontliners tend to still like Juggernaut, even though Numbing Tonic has ate its lunch a bit. Serene is the only one that I don't think has a niche in Encounters, although I suppose if you knew you were going up against a lot of Mental effects, maybe.

Outside of Encounters... well, I don't think anyone can deny how useful Mutagens are outside of Encounters.

I suppose this is a long-winded way of stating: using Mutagens is a choice. In my experience, when used on the right build, it's a choice that has paid off many, many times. I...

that's a 100% faulty argument, because now you are penaltising the Mutagens for Stacking but not the Spells for Stacking.

Spells "stack" with mutagens as much as Mutagens "stack" with Spells.

There's no justification that 1 of them is penaltised for it and not the other.

Tridus wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Balance wise, there's no justification for such massive penalties.

If you want to have penalties for lore/fluff reasons, make the panalties fluff as well("Bestial Mutagen: you grow fur or other visible, Bestial, feature". "Quicksilver: your skin becomes metallic". And etc)

You do realize that the "fix" for this is "change mutagens to give status bonuses", right? Now they can give bigger numbers. You also just made them not stack and instead compete with all the other things giving out those bonuses, but that's a type of bonus that can go higher.

This whole discussion is comparing things that are meant to operate in entirely different buckets of bonuses and going "the number is bigger on one so the other is bad!" Nevermind that very few spells can give item bonuses at all, let alone get you ahead of the curve on them.

People should think more carefully about what would actually happen if this was changed. Because the answer isn't "mutagens suddenly give massive item bonuses or have no downsides". It's going to be "mutagens are functionally spells with a different flavor so that you can't stack them and thus the numbers can be bigger."

Like most Alchemy, these are a tool that have a time when they're appropriate and a time when they're not. At the right time, they make a difference.

I wouldn't mind if the bonuses had to change to Status bonuses if they were indeed worthwhile bonuses.

That said, I don't advocate for "mutagens give a stacking +4 bonus", as I said many times over:

If they are only a +1 above what you have already, there's no need for a massive penalty like they have now. If they want to keep the penalty, they need to be somewhat stronger, an extra +1 more would indeed justify the penalty with the way bonuses are adjudicated in pf2.

That way you have a reason to use them above a Bless, or a Heroism, or something around those spell ranks.

[NorrKnekten]

Ok... so why not use Alchemical itembonuses that arent penalized? They stack with spells to so why not use those?

[shroudb]

NorrKnekten wrote:

Ok... so why not use Alchemical itembonuses that arent penalized? They stack with spells to so why not use those?

CAuse this is a discussion about mutagens and all mutagens come with severe penalties?

Do you see anyone complaining about Bravo brews and Eagle eyes? Alchemical stuff that give similar bonuses without the penalties? CAuse I don't.

But I've seen maybe a couple dozen of people actually using Mutagens in literally thousands of games so far because the penalties are massive enough that the boost provided is not justified for their character.

[NorrKnekten]

shroudb wrote:

NorrKnekten wrote:

Ok... so why not use Alchemical itembonuses that arent penalized? They stack with spells to so why not use those?

CAuse this is a discussion about mutagens and all mutagens come with severe penalties?

Do you see anyone complaining about Bravo brews and Eagle eyes? Alchemical stuff that give similar bonuses without the penalties? CAuse I don't.

Theres been discussion regarding bravos brew and eagle eye both over the years, Most agree they are in a good place but languish how niche and expensive they are to warrant purchasing.

So if they are in a good place, what is needed to introduce an item with a stronger effect at an earlier level?

Less duration and added penalties seem like a fair trade for cheaper and more general/powerful use consumables. Especially since they arent an obvious choice but at the same time we humans instinctually retch at any notion of a "penalty"

[Riddlyn]

Spells are better because they are more finite resource. At best using just class features a spellcaster can cast their top ranked spells maybe 4-6 times a day. So they need to give more bang for their buck. An alchemist on the other hand no longer has that limitation. Given enough time they can replenish their vials allowing them to keep pumping out maxed out mutagens. So can you elaborate on how removing the penalties would somehow be balanced?

[shroudb]

Riddlyn wrote:

Spells are better because they are more finite resource. At best using just class features a spellcaster can cast their top ranked spells maybe 4-6 times a day. So they need to give more bang for their buck. An alchemist on the other hand no longer has that limitation. Given enough time they can replenish their vials allowing them to keep pumping out maxed out mutagens. So can you elaborate on how removing the penalties would somehow be balanced?

With mutagens being perpetually at +1 regardless thier level, they can easily be compared to a Heroism.

Heroism being a spell is more powerful, and it should be more powerful: it gives to all attacks, it gives to all skills, it gives to all saves.
While mutagens only give to a small subsection of those: 1 specific attack and 1 specific save and 1-3 skills usually.

So, Even taking as baseline that Spells should be more powerful, a Rank 3 spell, which is abvailable at 5, and by level 12 it's no longer part of "finite resources" since it's now at Max rank-3, soon to be max Max rank -4.

So, by level 12, the Mutagens need to either have the penalty removed, or need to be stronger than Heroism, which is where the "+1 more than what they give already" comes about.

They don't need to be broken, they don't need to be +3s or +4s, but at least be at +2 compared to what you already have to justify the penalty. Or, simply have Greater Mutagens remove the penalty but keep being at +1. Both of those are balanced approaches.

Especially considering the extreme nerf of Advanced alchemy ingredients in the remaster, and taking into account that Quick Alchemy only lasts 10mins, so removing the 1hour "upside" of the higher level Mutagens if we want to consider "amount of Resources used". Because at those levels, your Advanced alchemy ingredients are actually equal to top level spellslots for a caster.

NorrKnekten wrote:

shroudb wrote:

NorrKnekten wrote:

Ok... so why not use Alchemical itembonuses that arent penalized? They stack with spells to so why not use those?

CAuse this is a discussion about mutagens and all mutagens come with severe penalties?

Do you see anyone complaining about Bravo brews and Eagle eyes? Alchemical stuff that give similar bonuses without the penalties? CAuse I don't.

Theres been discussion regarding bravos brew and eagle eye both over the years, Most agree they are in a good place but languish how niche and expensive they are to warrant purchasing.

So if they are in a good place, what is needed to introduce an item with a stronger effect at an earlier level?

Less duration and added penalties seem like a fair trade for cheaper and more general/powerful use consumables. Especially since they arent an obvious choice but at the same time we humans instinctually retch at any notion of a "penalty"

I'd say the opposite actually. Early level Mutagens, being at +1 for their level 1 and 3 versions is not a real problem, because spells at those levels are more finite.

It's at higher levels that you can spam lower rank slots with impunity that make the penalties (for the same basically effect) simply not balanced.

So, greater versions of Mutagens need to be stronger/have no negatives to be able to keep up with low-rank spell spam/wands/scrolls.

[Trip.H]

I think the biggest miss with alch items was that Paizo neglected another Investment style meta-limit.

Because the only limit to alch buffs is duration and cost, the devs have to assume a buff golem situation, so all the item benefits are rather tiny (outside the 1 min buffs, which is the only space they feel safe in giving potent effects).

.

Same goes for spells, actually.

I would really have liked for there to be a default of one buff per target per caster/alchemist, with some spells/items having a trait/tag to bypass that limit, like mystic armor (but only when cast from a slot!).
(and ofc, PCs of that specialty would have abilities/options to increase or play with that limit)

The "wand of ___" buff issue would vanish if that had not just a gp cost, but opportunity cost in the same way mutagens do.

More impactful for Fun is that a system-wide safety limit on power like that would enable each individual buff to provide a much bigger bonus.

.

Riddlyn wrote:

The catch is that only an Alchemist has recharging VVials*, so access to the items is gated / restrained by a class chassis just like a caster is.

There is also the issue of how the gp cost and use of scrolls vs alch compares.

A L17 scroll for a big ol 2A spell is 3,000 gp.
A L17 1A bomb is also 3,000 gp.

Yet, we all know that spells are set at a higher power budget, while the alch item is lucky to get anything more than a math upgrade of 3d6 to 4d6.
(the number of new L17 alch items is literally 1 (Green Gut). Poisons don't heighten, so aside from them, there is a single new item at 17, everything else is a version upgrade. This is like gaining access to a new Rank of spell, only to learn you can only fill those slots with heightened spells)

Scrolls are also compatible with most meta-magic, while alchemists need to have used Q-Alch to improve their items, or at least have imparted the infused trait via daily prep.

An alchemist cannot even purchase a Skunk Bomb and expect that to function as a fallback as a caster could, due to it not having the DC upgrade of self-made infused items.

[NorrKnekten]

Shroudb wrote:

They don't need to be broken, they don't need to be +3s or +4s, but at least be at +2 compared to what you already have to justify the penalty. Or, simply have Greater Mutagens remove the penalty but keep being at +1. Both of those are balanced approaches.

Theres plenty of cases where the Mutagens also do give +2 above what you would otherwise have, Any saves granted by mutagens do this past level 3. I don't know about you but when confusion, paralyze and synesthesia comes out, I am willing to take a -1 to my attack rolls and spell DCs to enjoy the effective +3 against mental. Same with the +2 bump from juggernaut if I see something with a poison breath. Both of these have additional effects too.

We also do have alchemicals and magical consumables that are effectively no-penalty mutagens, but just as i've seen people turn away at mutagens because of their penalty despite their stronger/broader effect I see people turn away from these no-penalty alternatives because they are to specific.

Things like the skeptics elixir, or the previously mentioned bravos brew which very well represent Paizo's design when it comes to consumables that grant item bonuses. Without a penalty, you are looking at a +1 bump in a single category over a longer duration with maybe an extra effect. +1 over a shorter duration with more impactful extra effects. Many agree that is a good place for consumables, Others argue its to specific depending on what the category is.

Mutas don't have that problem due to how broad they are in their bonuses. So removing the penalty is not a balanced approach, nor do I think paizo is willing to bump the skill and attack bonuses gained from them.

[ottdmk]

shroudb wrote:

that's a 100% faulty argument, because now you are penaltising the Mutagens for Stacking but not the Spells for Stacking.

Spells "stack" with mutagens as much as Mutagens "stack" with Spells.

There's no justification that 1 of them is penaltised for it and not the other.

You've missed my point.

There is no evidence that Mutagens have penalties because they stack with Spells. That is a supposition that you have advanced, repeatedly, with absolutely no evidence.

What is known is that Mutagens in 1st Edition introduced the "benefits to an area with penalties to another" mechanic. Why, we don't know. I would speculate that it goes back to the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde story, but that is just speculation on my part. 2nd Edition has continued that mechanic, although toned down (as most Buff mechanics in 2nd Ed have been toned down, as far as I understand.)

So unless you come to me and point me to some statement from a developer saying "We did it this way because Mutagens stack with Spells" all you have is a theory about the design that you cannot prove.

I was speaking of the reality that Mutagens and Spells stack. And that some of us, like myself, enjoy taking advantage of that fact.

ElementalofCuteness wrote:

Reminds me that I never drank a mutagen yet since PF-2E came out and the only one I might is quicksilver but the hit point damage is so far dumb to me that I can't bare the thought of bringign myself closer to death/downed...

I am genuinely curious: is 6 HP/level a deal-breaker for you when choosing your Class? In other words, are Psychic, Sorcerer, Witch & Wizard off the table for you due to their HP?

If that's the case, hey, I understand completely... the "squishy spellcaster" trope can be hard to take, especially when Bards, Clerics, Druids and other Spellcasters are 33% tougher.

There are those who look at 6 HP/level and tally it up as part of the "power budget" and accept it that way. I have a slightly different perspective:

I look at it as proof the Designers believe that Characters can survive the game with just 6 HP a level.

Back when I started looking at Quicksilver, I was trying very, very hard to understand why the Designers thought anyone would use that stuff. The -2 Fort Saves? Well, over time, as Fort Saves advanced, that would become less relevant. But 2HP per level? Why would anyone do that to themselves?

That's when I realized the correlation. Use Quicksilver, and become a "squishy spellcaster". And I've played Wizards before... my very first Pathfinder 2e character was a Wizard. That character has survived many, many encounters... usually because he's Ranged and a back-line character. Which is exactly the same way I play my Bomber on Quicksilver. Plus, the Bomber has a better AC (the Wizard won't reach +5 Dex until 20th.)

I know there are those who believe that, as Alchemical Items are less powerful than Spells, that the tradeoff isn't worth it. And it's true... you don't have to use Mutagens as an Alchemist anymore. You can accept that there are four annoying levels (5,6,13,14) and just play the game with the accuracy of a Thaumaturge.

But as I tend to repeat, a lot, there's always more to a Mutagen than just a +1 over a permanent item like a Weapon Potency Rune. And most Mutagens don't have a Drawback as severe as Quicksilver's. It's a tradeoff, and it's a choice. And what I will always argue against is the notion that using one is categorically a bad choice. It's paid off for me far too many times for me to ever accept that.

[graystone]

ottdmk wrote:

I am genuinely curious: is 6 HP/level a deal-breaker for you when choosing your Class? In other words, are Psychic, Sorcerer, Witch & Wizard off the table for you due to their HP?

For me, the PF1 Burn was a deal-breaker for me with Kineticist. So in a similar way, I also wouldn't take mutagens that do similar things.

As far as class HD, that part of a total package: taking a mutagen doesn't get you a spell list so it's an apples to orange argument IMO to make a tangent comparing class HD and taking unhealable damage.

[ottdmk]

NorrKnekten wrote:

Things like the skeptics elixir, or the previously mentioned bravos brew which very well represent Paizo's design when it comes to consumables that grant item bonuses. Without a penalty, you are looking at a +1 bump in a single category over a longer duration with maybe an extra effect. +1 over a shorter duration with more impactful extra effects. Many agree that is a good place for consumables, Others argue its to specific depending on what the category is.

What I find interesting about the Elixirs is that, generally, they are +1 over a permanent Item, and +2 in a specific area... although it depends on the level.

So Bravo's is +1 above Resilient Runes from L2 to L7... simply because Resilients come in at L8. It's +2 against Fear for that same period. Drops to +1 to Fear for L8 & 9, before going back to the +1/+2 paradigm for L10-L13. +1 to Fear again for L14, and then back to +1/+2 for L15-19 (with that nice Bravery Fear save bump.)

Eagle-eye is similar, although in general Eagle-Eye also has the advantage of applying to all Perception checks, as opposed to a subset like most permanent items.

[Riddlyn]

shroudb wrote:

Riddlyn wrote:

Spells are better because they are more finite resource. At best using just class features a spellcaster can cast their top ranked spells maybe 4-6 times a day. So they need to give more bang for their buck. An alchemist on the other hand no longer has that limitation. Given enough time they can replenish their vials allowing them to keep pumping out maxed out mutagens. So can you elaborate on how removing the penalties would somehow be balanced?

With mutagens being perpetually at +1 regardless thier level, they can easily be compared to a Heroism.

Heroism being a spell is more powerful, and it should be more powerful: it gives to all attacks, it gives to all skills, it gives to all saves.
While mutagens only give to a small subsection of those: 1 specific attack and 1 specific save and 1-3 skills usually.

So, Even taking as baseline that Spells should be more powerful, a Rank 3 spell, which is abvailable at 5, and by level 12 it's no longer part of "finite resources" since it's now at Max rank-3, soon to be max Max rank -4.

So, by level 12, the Mutagens need to either have the penalty removed, or need to be stronger than Heroism, which is where the "+1 more than what they give already" comes about.

They don't need to be broken, they don't need to be +3s or +4s, but at least be at +2 compared to what you already have to justify the penalty. Or, simply have Greater Mutagens remove the penalty but keep being at +1. Both of those are balanced approaches.

Especially considering the extreme nerf of Advanced alchemy ingredients in the remaster, and taking into account that Quick Alchemy only lasts 10mins, so removing the 1hour "upside" of the higher level Mutagens if we want to consider "amount of Resources used". Because at those levels, your Advanced alchemy ingredients are actually equal to top level spellslots for a caster.

NorrKnekten wrote:

shroudb wrote:

NorrKnekten wrote:

Ok... so why not use Alchemical itembonuses that arent

...

And by the point heroism is that cheap it no longer compares with an at level mutagen for that level. And mind you the penalty outside of maybe quicksilver doesn't increase. So like drakeheart the bonuses scale and improve but the penalty never changes. So for me it's not a hard sell to choose between a +1 for 10 minutes to heavy plate with a rune AC for an hour at level 12. I'll eat the -1 to will, reflex and recall knowledge for that. To me that's not a bad trade off.

[ottdmk]

graystone wrote:

As far as class HD, that part of a total package: taking a mutagen doesn't get you a spell list so it's an apples to orange argument IMO to make a tangent comparing class HD and taking unhealable damage.

Like I said: different perspectives.

I'm not looking at what my HP are on Quicksilver and saying, well, do I have the power of a full Spellcaster now that I've put my HP to this level? Does everything balance out?

I'm simply concerned with "OK, if I make this choice to gain these particular benefits, will my Bomber survive?"

And the answer is, across 22 levels of playing a Bomber (1-12, 1-10) yes. I get very concrete benefits that mesh well with my primary concept: I want to throw Bombs at things. For me, it's a complete win.

[NorrKnekten]

ottdmk wrote:

NorrKnekten wrote:

Things like the skeptics elixir, or the previously mentioned bravos brew which very well represent Paizo's design when it comes to consumables that grant item bonuses. Without a penalty, you are looking at a +1 bump in a single category over a longer duration with maybe an extra effect. +1 over a shorter duration with more impactful extra effects. Many agree that is a good place for consumables, Others argue its to specific depending on what the category is.

What I find interesting about the Elixirs is that, generally, they are +1 over a permanent Item, and +2 in a specific area... although it depends on the level.

So Bravo's is +1 above Resilient Runes from L2 to L7... simply because Resilients come in at L8. It's +2 against Fear for that same period. Drops to +1 to Fear for L8 & 9, before going back to the +1/+2 paradigm for L10-L13. +1 to Fear again for L14, and then back to +1/+2 for L15-19 (with that nice Bravery Fear save bump.)

Eagle-eye is similar, although in general Eagle-Eye also has the advantage of applying to all Perception checks, as opposed to a subset like most permanent items.

Fully agree, But as said, the level stagger is universal for all consumables that give bonuses that compete with other equipment. But it is also true that Serene is +1 over what bravo provides with improved effect against mental and not just fear, While also giving the same bonus to general perception as eagle eye (not against traps and doors though).. and the wisdom skills.

If I remember correctly Serene's penalty doesnt even impact Grapple/Trip so you can absolutely quaff it and still be useful,

[graystone]

ottdmk wrote:

graystone wrote:

As far as class HD, that part of a total package: taking a mutagen doesn't get you a spell list so it's an apples to orange argument IMO to make a tangent comparing class HD and taking unhealable damage.

Like I said: different perspectives.

I'm not looking at what my HP are on Quicksilver and saying, well, do I have the power of a full Spellcaster now that I've put my HP to this level? Does everything balance out?

I'm simply concerned with "OK, if I make this choice to gain these particular benefits, will my Bomber survive?"

And the answer is, across 22 levels of playing a Bomber (1-12, 1-10) yes. I get very concrete benefits that mesh well with my primary concept: I want to throw Bombs at things. For me, it's a complete win.

lol and for myself, the answer is that I'm LESS likely to survive. Movement and distance doesn't prevent return fire from weapons and ranged spells [especially with base range at 20' and with farlobber 30'] and in addition, the mutagen lower saves on some of the nastier effects. So for me, it's a pile of negatives unless you can ensure you're only fighting melee only enemies that are slower than you...

At the end of the day, voluntarily dropping my hp to the lowest caster levels and dropping fort saves by a prof level for a +1 to hit and some bonus movement is too much for me. If you're good with that, then great. But I hope you can understand where it's a bridge too far for others.

[shroudb]

Riddlyn wrote:

You can take steps to help yourself recover from persistent damage, or an ally can help you, allowing you to attempt an additional flat check before the end of your turn. This is usually an activity requiring 2 actions, and it must be something that would reasonably improve your chances (as determined by the GM). For example, you might try to smother a flame or wash off acid. This allows you to attempt an extra flat check immediately, but only once per round.

Huh?

What are you talking about? You don't make sense.

Heroism being so cheap by that level, while Mutagens being so expensive, for far worse bonuses is the whole point.

You can keep spamming Heroism and not bother with Mutagens at all and you'll always be better compared to the other way around.

Heroism will always be a +1, same thing with Mutagens. Only on higher levels to get that +1 you need to give 30gp for a Scroll of Heroism, while for a mutagen you need to give 3000gp and face penalties.

The penalty is also stacking with every other penalty that exists, so yeaf, why take -1 to your Will when you can get an AoE +1 To the whole party AC with a lvl1 scroll?

ottdmk wrote:

graystone wrote:

As far as class HD, that part of a total package: taking a mutagen doesn't get you a spell list so it's an apples to orange argument IMO to make a tangent comparing class HD and taking unhealable damage.

Like I said: different perspectives.

I'm not looking at what my HP are on Quicksilver and saying, well, do I have the power of a full Spellcaster now that I've put my HP to this level? Does everything balance out?

I'm simply concerned with "OK, if I make this choice to gain these particular benefits, will my Bomber survive?"

And the answer is, across 22 levels of playing a Bomber (1-12, 1-10) yes. I get very concrete benefits that mesh well with my primary concept: I want to throw Bombs at things. For me, it's a complete win.

That's not a perspective of balance though.

You can have a character do one badly optimised thing that you like to do and enjoy the character.

Noone here is saying that there is a "wrong way to enjoy a character". What I'm saying is that balance wise, it IS the suboptimal choice compared to using a Rank 1 spell, in this case a simple Bless, to get much greater rewards for much lesser risks.

And that's the issue here.

For your character, that +1 that you sacrifice a huge portion of your survivability, it's far better to simply stock on lvl1 scrolls and spam those if you want to be optimal.

And that's a terrible thing for an Alchemist to be better when using minimum lelvel spells instead of his Maximum level Mutagens.

[ottdmk]

graystone wrote:

At the end of the day, voluntarily dropping my hp to the lowest caster levels and dropping fort saves by a prof level for a +1 to hit and some bonus movement is too much for me. If you're good with that, then great. But I hope you can understand where it's a bridge too far for others.

Don't forget the +2 to Reflex Saves and the additional +1 over permanent items to Stealth. (I don't really use Acrobatics, although when I've needed it I can't complain. Thievery not my thing.)

As for it being a bridge too far for some... sure, I get that. Like I said previously, I keep putting my perspective out there because I wholeheartedly disagree with the belief being put out there that it's a bad idea for everyone. It's not.