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Does anyone else have concerns around the BT on the turret? Currently it would be better if they just got rid of it and gave it half health instead so it actually breaks and can be resummoned. I don't see how the turret is supposed to be usable when small amounts of damage break it and you can't repair it in combat until higher level. If the goal is to then have you have to destroy it manually that's a lot of action tax. And if the goal is to have you self destruct it, that goes completely against using it as cover.
It didn't seem as bad when the Hardness scaled better, but that was only there for a few hours on the original document before being nerfed to hardness = half level rounded up. It will feel kind of silly to have a turret that is just broken all the time leaving you to just fire your own gun with no feat support.
I think as long as you can two action recover redeploy it may not be that bad. Weird but as long as you are not stuck wasting time shooting at your own turret to redeploy it I think it may be fine. Very disposable repositionable fire support is an interesting niche. Given you can rebuild and redeploy a busted turret makes me think you should be able to do the same to a broken one. That gives you the choice of do you want to use it as cover a bit longer before yoinking and redeploying or do you just want it back in business faster. You would be paying an action cost to do so it is not a free/trivial action which seems reasonable.
In order to re-deploy it it needs to hit 0 Hit Points....Which, once broken the enemy has literally no reason to target it and as such you are forced to take Self-Destruct feat as feat tax if you wish to repair it and make it able to fire, this seems dumb to me after it gets pointed out, at least shileded turret keeps the cover bonus if you take 1 action, sooooo I guess there is that. However you just made the turret just cover at that point, cool....You place it down for an Action and use Cordinated Fire and next turn you do it again and take cover until it hits the Break Threshold then you use it as just literal cover till destroyed. Forcing Self-Destruct feat as a tax on you to be able to Re-Deploy it.
So both Mines & Turret Mechanic seems underpowered now. I'd accept the Break Threshold if the Turret used your INT for Attacking, and bonus damage without modify and it didn't count towards your MAP, but since it does nope this needs a buff by removing it.
Hmmm... the cost to redeploy is only 1 action. It is essentially free HP. If an enemy spends the time to destroy it you just put up another one. Very low cost, high return. I think there needs to be some sort of greater cost.
That is why I would think for redeploying a broken turret should be a two action thing one breaks it down the other would redeply a fresh one. It does not seem like a huge deal because you could always just shoot the turret once and probably finish it off but you should have the option to just decommission it so you can redeploy. Heck there may be cases where before you get the ability to move them around that you wind up wanting to pull up even a fully functioning turret and that should be an option too.
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Hmmm... the cost to redeploy is only 1 action. It is essentially free HP. If an enemy spends the time to destroy it you just put up another one. Very low cost, high return. I think there needs to be some sort of greater cost.That is why I would think for redeploying a broken turret should be a two action thing one breaks it down the other would redeply a fresh one. It does not seem like a huge deal because you could always just shoot the turret once and probably finish it off but you should have the option to just decommission it so you can redeploy. Heck there may be cases where before you get the ability to move them around that you wind up wanting to pull up even a fully functioning turret and that should be an option too.
Yeah, I think I agree with that.
Hmmm... the cost to redeploy is only 1 action. It is essentially free HP. If an enemy spends the time to destroy it you just put up another one. Very low cost, high return. I think there needs to be some sort of greater cost.
No, it's 2 actions to yank and redeploy a turret, and it only restores its HP if it's at zero. If its at or below half HP, and therefore broken and can't fire, it is still at that same HP and still broken if you spend two actions to pull it and put it back out. (Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.)
You deploy your turret into an unoccupied square within 30 feet and prime it to fire, or you collect your turret from an adjacent square and collapse it, returning it to your custom rig for storage. If your turret is reduced to 0 HP, you can collect and redeploy your turret as a 2-action activity to return it to full HP.
I think the problem with this is the turret is central to your own damage and using your own actions. How is that significant an action tax okay? And how is turret mechanic supposed to be remotely competitive on damage? And because the BT is so easy to hit any random person shooting at it from range will be able to take it to that threshold quite easily with a single attack a lot of the time. I just don't see how that's supposed to work and not just be a hindrance on your actions where it'd be better to just shoot your own gun all the time instead of dealing with it. Why does the turret have a BT while the drone doesn't and the Drone has its own action.
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I think the turret is competive on damage once you invest in Area Denial Turret (a 30-45' cone placed 30' away to toast an entire group) and/or Coordinated Fire (MAPless attacks from both you and your turret) at level 2, Self Destruct (one action to tell it to move with Reposition Exocortex or for you to run away, then two actions to detonate gets you a 3 action Fireball with full area), Auto Target at 6th (area fire will provide an incentive to move away for some enemies), and especially Energy Expulsion at level 10 to get a full MAP strike and full DC area blast (if your strike hits) for two actions.
It's also not all about damage. With a 1st level feat you get a permanent +2 to AC if you put it between you and enemies, no taking cover action required. There's also the concealment zone and wall off an area/provide group cover options. And if they're shooting at the turret, they're not shooting at you or your allies, that's a benefit in of itself.
That said, you should be able to restore it without having to destroy it yourself, and while Self Destruct is great, it becomes something of a feat tax and not applicable in every situation if you can't withdraw from the blast zone or Reposition Exocortex it somewhere that won't toast allies.
It's a tech book, we may also get crafting skill feats and nanite patches to repair the turret in combat, but that's not ideal given the existing "just spend actions, if it's hurt enough" refresh option.
I think the turret is competive on damage once you invest in Area Denial Turret (a 30-45' cone placed 30' away to toast an entire group) and/or Coordinated Fire (MAPless attacks from both you and your turret) at level 2, Self Destruct (one action to tell it to move with Reposition Exocortex or for you to run away, then two actions to detonate gets you a 3 action Fireball with full area), Auto Target at 6th (area fire will provide an incentive to move away for some enemies), and especially Energy Expulsion at level 10 to get a full MAP strike and full DC area blast (if your strike hits) for two actions.
It's also not all about damage. With a 1st level feat you get a permanent +2 to AC if you put it between you and enemies, no taking cover action required. There's also the concealment zone and wall off an area/provide group cover options. And if they're shooting at the turret, they're not shooting at you or your allies, that's a benefit in of itself.
That said, you should be able to restore it without having to destroy it yourself, and while Self Destruct is great, it becomes something of a feat tax and not applicable in every situation if you can't withdraw from the blast zone or Reposition Exocortex it somewhere that won't toast allies.
It's a tech book, we may also get crafting skill feats and nanite patches to repair the turret in combat, but that's not ideal given the existing "just spend actions, if it's hurt enough" refresh option.
Coordinated fire again ceases to function once that BT is hit.
The damage on the self destruct is quite low though. It also cannot be moved once its broken nor would it likely provide cover or if you go by armor rules instead perhaps just -2 or -3 but that still nullifies it. The feat for self destruct is level 4 if it scales from that level, it would only be 3d6 damage at level 6 as it scales 1d6 piercing damage every 2 levels, the fire does not scale, while fireball is 6d6 at level 5 for 2 actions.
I'm not sure what action you're talking about if it's hurt enough to refresh it, as far as I know that doesn't exist. You have to have it fully destroyed to redeploy it. And again most of the feats you're talking about using will not work if your turret is reduced to half which is quite easy to do and that again ends up nullifying all of your feat choices. If you're using the turret as cover, and say it hits that BT, you then have a non functioning weapon, that likely is your priority on upgrades, that is immobile now and does not provide cover. There also needs to be clarification on what your turret is capable of once broken, does self destruct even work? By broken rules the turret should be non-functional, but I can't imagine they mean to prevent self destruct.
Either way, say you're taking cover by your turret shooting things, it hits BT they stop shooting at it so it just remains non-functional and you cannot summon another. You can then run away and trigger self-destruct but with a lot of combat remaining ranged in SF2E you are very likely in a lot of cases just dealing zero damage that round lowering your DPR even lower. Even if there are enemies 2d6 is quite low by that level.
For Area Denial, as far as I've heard, area fire deals less damage than cantrips until you hit certain target thresholds based on the Soldier feedback. I believe it began to only be decent once they applied the changes to Primary Target to include an actual attack roll included in the area fire for Soldier. Because most monsters have high reflex and save, same problem self destruct will have.
For Energy Expulsion, I think that would be quite niche to even have enemies in the area of your turret close enough to be hit by it unless you're throwing it deep enough. Again, SF2E is much more heavily ranged leaning so having enemies clustered enough or close enough is not as easy as it is in PF2E. And if you're throwing it deep, it again becomes an easier target for them to just BT.
Edit: All of this is to say, I like the turret a lot, but I believe the BT needs to go entirely. It introduces too many complications into the turret gameplay.
Can Mobile Exocortex really not move a Broken Turret? So if that is yes then it becomes just glorified cover and you should really grab Shielded Turret then and treat it as a Wall with a chance of doing some damage when the wall is first deployed with Cordinated Fire.
Can Mobile Exocortex really not move a Broken Turret? So if that is yes then it becomes just glorified cover and you should really grab Shielded Turret then and treat it as a Wall with a chance of doing some damage when the wall is first deployed with Cordinated Fire.
I believe most maps should have plenty of cover to work with anyways but maybe not. Guess that just depends on your games. Feels like it just doesn't stack up to the other exos.
A broken object can’t be used for its normal function, nor does it grant bonuses—with the exception of armor.
You clearly can't fire a turret that is broken, I'm unsure if you can use it for cover (the turret doesn't "grant bonuses" directly, it's just a chunk of stuff that's in the way), and I think you probably can still order it to walk around and blow itself up - those aren't "normal function" they're separate bolt ons from your feats. It definitely needs clarification or preferably just removal of a broken stage.
I also keep saying people on Discord and Reddit (it may be the same person) claim that "they changed" the hardness to the weaker "half your level" always being the case. But I'm not sure why they say this, except for some online third party apparently implementing it that way.
it has Hardness equal to half your level (rounded up). It has trained proficiency in Reflex and Fortitude saves, using your Intelligence modifier to calculate these bonuses. It has 6 Hit Points, plus a number of Hit Points equal to 2 plus your Intelligence modifier for each level you have. Its Broken Threshold is equal to half its total Hit Points (rounded down). During your daily preparations, you automatically repair your turret, restoring it to maximum Hit Points. If your turret is destroyed, the next time you Deploy Turret, you deploy a repaired turret with maximum Hit Points. You can only have one turret deployed at a time.
At 5th level, your turret’s Hardness increases to 10. At 10th level, it increases to 15 and its proficiency rank in Reflex and Fortitude saves increases to expert. At 15th level, its Hardness increases to 20, and its proficiency rank in Reflex and Fortitude saves increases to master.
I do agree there's some tension here and probably one of these is supposed to go away. As is it still works it's just clunky - half your level until the new rules come into effect at level 5.
I also keep saying people on Discord and Reddit (it may be the same person) claim that "they changed" the hardness to the weaker "half your level" always being the case. But I'm not sure why they say this, except for some online third party apparently implementing it that way.
I do agree there's some tension here and probably one of these is supposed to go away. As is it still works it's just clunky - half your level until the new rules come into effect at level 5.it has Hardness equal to half your level (rounded up). It has trained proficiency in Reflex and Fortitude saves, using your Intelligence modifier to calculate these bonuses. It has 6 Hit Points, plus a number of Hit Points equal to 2 plus your Intelligence modifier for each level you have. Its Broken Threshold is equal to half its total Hit Points (rounded down). During your daily preparations, you automatically repair your turret, restoring it to maximum Hit Points. If your turret is destroyed, the next time you Deploy Turret, you deploy a repaired turret with maximum Hit Points. You can only have one turret deployed at a time.
At 5th level, your turret’s Hardness increases to 10. At 10th level, it increases to 15 and its proficiency rank in Reflex and Fortitude saves increases to expert. At 15th level, its Hardness increases to 20, and its proficiency rank in Reflex and Fortitude saves increases to master.
I found it on Demiplane Nexus when it originally launched where someone linked it on Reddit, the documentation included the hardness scaling up like you mentioned, but then shortly within a day or so it was removed from the reflex and fort saving section.
I hope that is just an error and the hardness does scale up better, but I'd honestly prefer they just make it your level +5. I think that would work better anyways and give you an additional point of hardness each level instead of large jumps.
Broken for turret could mean the gun doesn't work but everything else does, or it could mean it's reduced to spare parts on the ground that do nothing. That's a huge area of interpretation. Hope a lot of this gets cleared up soon, short play test with no clarifications means low quality feed back.
Broken on a weapon is a -2 to attack rolls...
No it isn't. Broken means it straight up does not work. Only armor gets reduced and that depends on the type of armor light/medium/heavy, -1/-2/-3 respectively.
Broken on a weapon is a -2 to attack rolls...
Not in PF2 Player Core Remastered. Is there a GM Core discrepancy or are you remembering an older rule? I can only find an armor exception to “does not function.”
Self-Destruct Feat looking more and more like a feat tax every passing day. I seriously don't know what Paizo's Starfinder team is doing wit these sub-classes. Mechanic is what Inventor should be but just copies what makes Inventor great with it's companion.
Mines are great but suffer the Alchemist problem of running out of resources and requiring 50 mins at the highest level to get back all 9 mines. To make it worse by level 6 you can dump all of your Mines in a single turn with Instant Deploy + Double Deployment. Literal does nothign till level 10 honestly but still.
Turret well....You see the Break Threshold here. Heck I was hoping for a Double Deployment for Turrets or for Turrets to use INT for Attack. 1d8+Int at 60/90ft...Why is the turret so short of a range also? Chain gun seems to be the best option till you fight a monster with an elemental weakness.
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Yes, the break threshold without self destruct is rough. But, I think you are being a little harsh.
It is very unlikely that the mine deploy feats are intended to allow 1 action at 30ft. Secondly, if you blitz all of your capacity of mines quickly, with how much damage you'd be dealing, it does feel appropriate to have some sort of cost. That said, the mechanic is also a martial. So, if your mine supply is gone, or you are pacing yourself, you still have that part of your class. But, this thread is about turrets.
As for the turret, again, yes, the BT is rough. And yes, it would be nice to have an optional Int to-hit. But those ranges are pretty standard or higher for most ranged weapons in the playtest. And, with a mod, you can extend it by 30ft. At that distance, your turret is pretty far back. Plus, I don't know your experiences, but it is rare to have a combat at that range anyway. And and, getting stat to damage at range is very rare in 2e. And and and, you can get an aoo at 30ft for the turret.
Yes, the break threshold without self destruct is rough. But, I think you are being a little harsh.
It is very unlikely that the mine deploy feats are intended to allow 1 action at 30ft. Secondly, if you blitz all of your capacity of mines quickly, with how much damage you'd be dealing, it does feel appropriate to have some sort of cost. That said, the mechanic is also a martial. So, if your mine supply is gone, or you are pacing yourself, you still have that part of your class. But, this thread is about turrets.
As for the turret, again, yes, the BT is rough. And yes, it would be nice to have an optional Int to-hit. But those ranges are pretty standard or higher for most ranged weapons in the playtest. And, with a mod, you can extend it by 30ft. At that distance, your turret is pretty far back. Plus, I don't know your experiences, but it is rare to have a combat at that range anyway. And and, getting stat to damage at range is very rare in 2e. And and and, you can get an aoo at 30ft for the turret.
If your turret is constantly broken you aren't getting reactions with it.
In Pathfinder yes it is more rare to have combat at that range, but not in the slightest in Starfinder.
The effective range is longer because you can deploy it 30’ out, order it to advance ever longer distances to close, and there’s those stride compression feats to get closer before you drop it.
One thing about still being a martial when it breaks is whether you can afford to have a two handed weapon given rig/tool use requirements and the final strength of pistols or I the one handed martial weapons in the game.
But tell me, when does another Martial have their Class Features shut down by something as simple as 45 damage to it at level 10, it has around 76 hit points at level 10 if you max INt to +5 and BT is half so 38 with 10 Hardness, so actually any hit of 48 or more damage can put your Turret out of commission and at that point is a -2 to attacks really something you need? I'll give you that the hardness 10 might make it survive 2-3 hits of an equal level creature but what's the point of having 6 Base + 2+INT Mod of HP each level if the total is cut in half, that's the point you might as well right it like 3 hit points + 1 + Half INT MOD as Hit points. Which at level 1 is just 6 with Hardness equal to 1/2 your level ( Minimal 1) So the turret can survive a Short-sword swinging creature with 0 STR mod using purely Dec and they max roll for 1d8 of damage. It should really go to d10 or something else to buff it based on the BT being so low.